Has anyone ever tried to start an AGS group project?
If so, have they ever gone anywhere?
I ask, because I may want to try starting one.
I am dumb... what is "AGS group project"?
I think there was a team compo once (wasn't OROW one?).
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Thu 25/02/2010 18:49:05
I am dumb... what is "AGS group project"?
Sorry. As I see it, an AGS group prject would be someone coming up with an idea for a game (like me), and placing that idea on the forums. Other people would start making music and sprites. After that's all done, the team would wither have a really good programmer, well, program, or do it themselves.
This has happened a few times. God's Quest was one, and The Sphinx (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/snarkywiki/index.php?title=Main_Page) was the most recent. It's a pity it didn't go anywhere because it was a very nice idea.
Quote from: Ali on Thu 25/02/2010 19:00:57
This has happened a few times. God's Quest was one, and The Sphinx (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/snarkywiki/index.php?title=Main_Page) was the most recent. It's a pity it didn't go anywhere because it was a very nice idea.
We should start something similar but this time for a multiplayer, perhaps RON would seem best for that..
Hey dual why doesn't everyone on AGS. Just all make like a huge Group game. If we all did that we would end up with one Huge masterpiece of a game. ( That will never happen but I can still wish) :P
Yeah, we have 5000 people here, we could make the greatest game ever! Or possibly the most disorganized mess of a game ever ;)
Quote from: discordance on Thu 25/02/2010 21:23:10
... the most disorganized mess of a game ever ;)
Oh yes, YES!!! Let's do it! It would be legen-wait for it
-DARY!!! ;D
Well I actually had an idea for a group project. Well, I haven't really worked it out yet, but the idea so far:
Use a google wave which is public to the forum. The wave then will be used as a big brainstorm session. (also about who will be doing what) After a pre defined deadline has passed it will be decided if it will go through.
I've used google wave for other projects, work really well in my opinion.
well I think it could happen. All we do is make a thread for the game. All the Artists then the programmers and then Story writers. All in groups for the Biggest game Ever. And I will be their leader :P . Nah just joking. It is like how I always thought about Commercial games. Like just imagine Rockstar working with Bethesda or something.
Quote from: Guyserman82 on Thu 25/02/2010 19:00:20
Sorry. As I see it, an AGS group prject would be someone coming up with an idea for a game (like me), and placing that idea on the forums. Other people would start making music and sprites. After that's all done, the team would wither have a really good programmer, well, program, or do it themselves.
I think many AGS games are written that way, albeit not on a public forum.
Quote from: Danman on Thu 25/02/2010 22:11:33
Like just imagine Rockstar working with Bethesda or something.
Eugh.
Quote
Sorry. As I see it, an AGS group prject would be someone coming up with an idea for a game (like me), and placing that idea on the forums.
Ideas are like elbows and ass holes; everybody has a couple - some more than others
Quote
Other people would start making music and sprites. After that's all done, the team would wither have a really good programmer, well, program, or do it themselves.
Hehe ... You may have better luck using AGS's "Make My Game" function.
QuoteHehe ... You may have better luck using AGS's "Make My Game" function.
Nah.. that only supports low-res and that's for poopers :P
If you guys are looking for a project, why not revive The Sphinx (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/snarkywiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)? It already has a good plot, well defined characters and puzzles for the first episode. Plus a style guide by Big Brother, and a few semi-finished backgrounds I made. 2d adventure had deleted all of the graphics on the wiki, but here's what's on my harddrive:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/ravi.gif)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/sphinxmockup3c.gif) (http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/roomsetup.gif) (http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/textures.gif)
(Big Brother's Mockup, Style and Texture Guide)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/SphinxRoadNew.gif)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/SXStationINT3.gif)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/heliopolis.gif)
Unfortunately, I don't have the sprites for the other lead characters. But someone must!
That DOES look very interesting!
If someone starts it up again I'm in! Though I don't know how much help I would be :P
Snake had some images too I think. Sphinx really sounded great and ambituous; I'd like to see it revived.
We have tried to start up big group projects in the past, with very few finished results. I believe Two of a Kind (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=462) was initially an entry in a round of the AGS Team Challenge.
The Team Challenge competitions usually start off pretty promising, with lots of good intentions and optimistic plans, but then the teams drop off one after another, falling victims of all the inherent illnesses that come with group projects.
I´d like to be part of this kind of project. I can help with some of the graphics and the music.
Here are some screenshots from my game for a proof of my skills:
Screenshot 1 (http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2224/pertolascreen.png)(Ugly one)
Screenshot 2 (http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8054/pertolascreen2.png)(My own favourite
Screenshot 3 (http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3371/pertolascreen3.png)
They are Finnish.
Idea for Group project:
Full Throttle Sequel, 'cause it´s too had to do alone or with only a few members.
The way you explain it Andail. Sounds like a horror movie drop one after another, falling victims. ;D
I am too scared to make a group game now. :P
I also would like to join if I don't get dropped off anywhere.
I got a few skills in everything. What most I got is 14 years experience in gaming ( I even had dos).. I know what games were really cool.
QuoteThe Team Challenge competitions usually start off pretty promising, with lots of good intentions and optimistic plans, but then the teams drop off one after another, falling victims of all the inherent illnesses that come with group projects.
I find that to happen in
all projects where you don't pay the people. I guess there's a reason why FoY takes like forever whereas Dave Gilberts games have a reliable deadline :)
QuoteI find that to happen in all projects where you don't pay the people.
Then let´s make a good commercial game, where everyone gets their cut.
At russian forum we tried "Random Game" thing. Idea was that 4 participants do their part of work without knowing what others doing :)
I drew backgrounds for that.
It was silly... but a little bit fun.
Quote from: Ali on Fri 26/02/2010 11:33:12
If you guys are looking for a project, why not revive The Sphinx (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/snarkywiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)? It already has a good plot, well defined characters and puzzles for the first episode. Plus a style guide by Big Brother, and a few semi-finished backgrounds I made. 2d adventure had deleted all of the graphics on the wiki, but here's what's on my harddrive:
That looks great, when was this?
The Sphinx was being worked around 2005-2006, led by Snarky. This Wiki Page (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/snarkywiki/index.php?title=Main_Page) still has all of the character and story information. I did manage to find images showing some more character sprites:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Sphinx_chars.gif) (http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8230/turbanmanandobnoxiousofficial6.png) (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7391/rdcrew3uj.png)
That´s beatiful game. I´d like to be part of the team.
I see, too bad it got abandoned
Aha! So you had all those images, Ali. I thought they'd been lost forever. I think I have most of the rest:
(http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images3/sphinxmockup2.gif)
(http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images3/ravi6.gif) (http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images3/motep.gif) (http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images3/motep2.gif) (http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images3/sesh.gif) (http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images3/step6.gif)
I also have the other steps of the tutorials bigbrother made, the reference images and some very early work in progress in a completely different style.
The only thing I seem to remember but don't have is a later revision of the sprite of the woman, Sesh, wearing more modern clothing (a t-shirt and shorts, I think).
If people want to restart the project, they're very welcome to. It kind of died because there wasn't a whole lot of interest after a while, and I didn't want to write it on my own (the point was always that it would be a community project, not one person's baby). Also it turns out that I suck at coming up with good puzzles.
Quote from: abstauber on Fri 26/02/2010 14:41:11
I find that to happen in all projects where you don't pay the people.
I beg to differ! :D
I think team competition was awesome.
Velislav was quite a born leader too.
But yes, most of the little time we had, I spent on redrawing backgrounds from an artist that left in the middle of the compo :(
I think that any group project takes:
1) Very clear (and realistic!) vision
2) Good leadership
3) Good planning down to tiniest detail and minute, also, sketches
Also, some inside rules for perfectionists like me. For example, how many hours should one background, animation or whatever take. If time is over, it will be saved and used, whatever state it is. Plus little "fix time"at the end of the project to overhaul everything that was save-used way too early.
Let's say, there 1 hour per background and 10 backgrounds.
And then 2 hours of fix time, which will be used ONLY after 10 backgrounds are done.
Then "fixing" is forced to be divided between what needs it most and cannot also go on forever.
Well it can be done, but you need people that are really interested; Not just curious. There is no good way to tell them appart in the begin phase if you don't know each other very well. Sometimes you end up yourself with being just curious, it's some times hard to tell yourself. It helps to get a clear understanding what needs to happen, for that you already need to have a solid script. If you don't have that you need some kind of planning that keeps progression going on. I'm currently involved in a game project, we have (voice)meetings each week, we make agendas and minutes. I think it (especially the minutes) really helps keeping the project going. A bit fussy maybe for a large group of volanteers, but it might work. :)
Quote from: abstauber on Fri 26/02/2010 14:41:11
QuoteThe Team Challenge competitions usually start off pretty promising, with lots of good intentions and optimistic plans, but then the teams drop off one after another, falling victims of all the inherent illnesses that come with group projects.
I find that to happen in all projects where you don't pay the people. I guess there's a reason why FoY takes like forever whereas Dave Gilberts games have a reliable deadline :)
I'd like to make a little sidenote here: "projects where you don't pay people" makes some group efforts sound like team members are being extorted. For FoY this is simply not true: as it is a fan game based on copyrighted IP there's simply no viable way to turn it into a commercial project.
I think the best way a group could work would be
I do a background for 1 hour. Give to to another team member and he works on it. Then when the other team needs help the same applies. That way it like a give and take. I think the fact that lots of people play these games is good enough pay. ( For our egos anyway. ) Some people want to do these games and some can do it. That is what I think depends if people want to be payed.
Quote from: Radiant on Fri 26/02/2010 20:50:15
Quote from: abstauber on Fri 26/02/2010 14:41:11
I find that to happen in all projects where you don't pay the people.
I beg to differ! :D
Tell me your secret! :)
The biggest reason why I wouldn't join a group-fun is that most of the people here draw plain shit, and who'd be the hated leader to tell them that their background or sprites just don't fit the vision of the game. If on the other hand everything would be accepted the game would look very strange and irregular. Probably not worth playing either. Too many chefs spoil the dinner you know.
Quote
Tell me your secret!
1. You need a committed group of people on the team
2. Dedicated , full time leader
Most people that say they are committed to a project aren't. The ones that are
need to be constantly pumped with enthusiasm lest they lose interest and drift away.
The amount of effort required to complete a game project is greatly underestimated
by most people. It's really naive to believe that you can come here with a game idea
that people throw themselves at a chance to produce graphics, music, etc for it.
Quote from: Tuomas on Fri 26/02/2010 22:45:17
The biggest reason why I wouldn't join a group-fun is that most of the people here draw plain shit, and who'd be the hated leader to tell them that their background or sprites just don't fit the vision of the game. If on the other hand everything would be accepted the game would look very strange and irregular. Probably not worth playing either. Too many chefs spoil the dinner you know.
Haha, I totally agree with this. It would be hard to have a large group of artists making one game, and good quality is pretty slim around here. It could be an eyesore seeing multiple background/characters drawn by many individuals.
You'd pretty much need one person making the backgrounds, one doing the characters, one doing the character animations, one doing music, one doing sound effects, and one leader. The programming, dialog/writing, game and puzzle designers can be done by multiple people, but much easier with one person for each (with perhaps puzzle and game designer being the exception).
You're looking at possibly 11 people if you really wanted spread the work around to maximize efficiency.
well in that case you want to do two this:
first: Don't set the bar to high, begin with something small but complete, and leave room for extention, like episodic games. It's important to have a clear finishing point in sight, so it's not along run. Other then that, also make the quality of the sprites a level that is doable for at least a few artists. ;)
second: Have an art director: a game (every game in fact I think) needs to have a consistent style. The only way that will work is beign harsh and keeping standards, even if that means you need to bitch about some sprite someone made. Ofcourse the artist has to be able to understand what the art director had in mind, so communication is key. And also it must be doable to start with (see my first point).
These large group activities are just begging to fail. You want to gather a small group of people you know you can trust by their established body of work, not a bunch of untried internet 'personalities' who just want to be involved with something to be one with the hive mind or bask in some imaginary spotlight. And yeah, when the word 'free' is involved it's best not to be too ambitious in scope or design since a lengthy development cycle is the single largest cause of attrition with online help (and probably for commercial efforts as well).
If you have physical, punchable friends who like designing games they would make far more useful and accountable allies than anyone you meet on the internet because you can punch them (and they know it). On the internet it's all a toss-up of who has the biggest personality and friend/enemy list so you're going to find loads and loads of people who will offer to help but have no intention of actually sticking with the project for various reasons (disinterest, a severe underestimation of the effort, life issues, etc). That said, when you do meet that rarest internet person with integrity (like Dave Gilbert) you befriend them and keep close tabs on their projects since they are the only type of people online you'll be able to rely on in an actual project. Finally, the simple approach is just not to offer your help until you've accomplished something real on your own, and the reverse, not to accept help from someone who has a completely blank slate with nothing to offer but potentially empty promises. This is the reason why so many recruit a team requests go unanswered.
Get a game or two under your belt or some solid art or music in a portfolio and then start discussing your dream team! :)
It's definitely possible but constant communication is the key, as well as strong leadership of course. Without someone who provides direction for the team the project is doomed to failure.
I've been involved with a couple so far. First one was Monk game, like the TV series, which didn't last very long at all. We had some trouble finding a background artist from memory and it went stale really quickly. Funny how one person can make such a big difference especially in regard to the art side of the game, if someone leaves halfway through a game it can be so difficult to replace them that it's easier to just drop the whole thing altogether.
The second group project is the one I'm on now, it's a Indiana Jones fan game "Indiana Jones and the Seven Cities of Gold". Seems like this one may last the distance, I hope it does any way. There's a good group of people involved and things seem to be progressing well.
I also agree of the benefits of being able to punch people ;D
One thing I never do is quit doing a project in till it is done. The Indy game looks like we will make it hey green boy. All I know is I started 3 games in my life I have completed or will definitely complete them even if they suck. :P
I think it is hard for some people to do games when you got work, School and whatever else. Life is always very busy.
Also I think some people don't commit themselves to a project at the right times. This is just what I have seen so far.
I think it depends how you view your hobby, or desire for career in games making. Also your internet useage & happiness to stick with AGS. Especially if you plan to join or moreso start a group project. A lot of people come here to casually make games for fun so it seems strange when deadlines or games not coming out then starts to bug them. But we're all used to it, and guilty of it. Where's Run Hot?? Sphinx looks like it could work, still - as it just seems to be helping out how you can and adding to it if you want, rather than set team members and stuff. It looks very promissing!
This subject always draws on FoY for comparisons but I guess that's because it's a known team project that's "taken ages". But seriously, in what it is for those of us making it - that's still quite a short time. I mean, year in year out where possible some of us meet up, and hopefully all of us in the future, it's a bonding process. It's also become a bit of an institution these days, and there's nowt wrong with that! The team trust each other now, everyone has a role and they're good at it - but why do you think things like Gods of AGS or some other big projects like AFA FOA2 struggle? They change and swap their team and members around or various team members just dissapear. I've selected people for a project I know will take a while but I trust these people are actually in this for the long run, not just a year, a month or a week to produce a few bits of animation and dissapear. Because that happens! A lot. And as a team leader I feel you need a balance of telling people what to do, letting them get on with it but also not interfering (cos its a hobby) with their personal lives. People have to live them, and it's just not right to think people will put a game first before their life.
Finding dedicated people to work on a large scale project is not a walk in the park, unless of course - you're willing to give it some years to blossom. I'd imagine a larger project could be done in a years time with a large, strong team. But would there be consistency? I don't know. I'm yet to see it happen in the AGS community. I would have said Resonance but even that has funding now :) I'd say start early, get your ambitious team project going, even if it's doomed to fail. In the meantime you do other things and this will only reflect on you later.
For example, I started Kinky Island in 2001 or 02. Now I could have focussed on just getting that game out and not on anything else but I didn't, mostly cos it was again a process of finding team members. So, between 02 and 06 I did other things, then came back to it, did a little more and made a newish demo at not much extra effort at all really but then new talent wanted to join the team. If I'd have gone for it in 02, it would've been a shit game. It would've lacked in 06 too. We're in 10 now and again there are team changes but the game that would be produced now would be 100 times better than anything in 2002! But Im more fussy about making a decent game, rather than how long the game itself has been in public domain - which I know is a biggie for some developers. And in the meantime I've built my name up in music, made stupid online movies and done all sorts of stuff that proves to people there is a willingness - even if shit at leading a team ;) If there's one thing AGS has taught me, time strengthens projects, in a nice way!
All I can say is that FoY's early team hit a production standard of about 40%. Now 9 years later what I'm seeing is a game that doesn't just give FoA a run for its money, it gives several modern 3D games a run for their money. A highly dangerous quote perhaps but seriously - I have never seen AGS do such wonderful things! Ahhh!! Over the next couple of years is the real challenge to see if it can go from strength to strength and materialise beyond an intro. For the love of freeware if it does then I can only say just wait and see it and you'll realise why it took longer than expected *ahem* ! And if the project really does come to a halt early in its production, at the current level - it would still be a viable product to propose to LEC themselves. And then team issues would dissapear, because everyone would be paid. You'd have to buy the game, but it would at least mean the game is available ;) Though as miez says at the moment no, we want it to be free and keep full creative control - whilst doing the Indy franchise good justice.
All this can happen at the other end of the scale though, it really does depend on your ambitions. Kinky Island has a team of....2....but that simply cannot be made at the moment. It's also very ambitious in terms of animation and this is where a lot of problems can lie. Large team projects usually require large amounts of animation and still even in a community like this it can be a struggle to find them, especially if you're just starting out or you're "unknown" as it were. But on the other hand, look at some of the developers - they are obviously looking outside the community for artists and animators and it's really paying off.
Mods for prime minister ;D
Edutainment, edutainment, edutainment! :=
That was really insightful. Though I find it problematic to always be pushy and naggy as a team leader. Since the member it's a hobby for all of us and everyone is investing spare time.
Though I think I let go of the vision aspect too much - 'hope I can fix it until even more Bens are leaving me ;)
(of course I need to hire a few Bens for that to happen... :P )