All about Religion. (Rights, wrongs, Theocracy, etc.)

[Raggit]

I've been thinking a lot.  (Yes, this is going to be one of those threads.)

Tonight has been very interesting for me.  I really need to vent about some things.  But I suddenly realize that there is nobody I can vent to, and there's a reason behind that.  Try to stay with me on this.   

Okay, so a lot of you probably know that I profess(ed) to be a Christian, and some of you may have actually had me preach at you about something one time or another.  (Sorry about that.)

Well, anyway, in recent times I've found myself on the other side of the Christian faith, no longer believing or caring about religion, doctrine or anything else like that.  So obviously, I've got a lot of stuff to work out now.  But I realize now, I really don't have anybody to talk to, because everybody I've ever known closely is a Christian!!  If I talk to them, their solution will of course be, "Talk to Jesus." 
I'd rather not go there now.  I need to try to speak to people who won't try to steer everything back to salvation, doctrine, etc.

So, for clarification, I'm no longer a Christian.  I'm kinda just sitting on the fence, I guess.

Now, what happened tonight: I was invited to go to my old school for a get together.  That school, which I attended last year, is a Christian high school.  Well, some of my old school friends and I got to talking politics, and they've never quite cared for my anti-Bush views.  After it was all said and done, we had wandered back and fourth from politics to religion, from religion to politics.
There were some heated moments, but no hard feelings.

What stood out to me was, at the end of our discussion, I elaborated that I was glad they had a religion that made them happy and that gave them a purpose.  But I said, "Please don't try to influence this country and its politics and laws based on your Bible."

That didn't go over well, because evidently, this country belongs to God and we've gotta give it back to him, etc. 
Despite the fact that the world is full of folks who think their ideology should be made law, it was still kind of a disturbing display of, quite frankly, obsessed fundamentalism. 

These radical Christians who believe that we've got to reshape this country to fall in line with the Bible don't seem to perceive that their desire to legislate people into being Christians is blatantly unAmerican.  I said, "Well, how would you feel if I wanted to pass laws BANNING Christianity?"  And the reply was, "You'd be wrong, because this country was founded on God!"
These types seem to have a very direct and simple goal:  Sweep the entire country clean of liberals/democrats/homosexuals/non-Christians, and anybody else who they think that, because they are a political "enemy," they are also a religious enemy that must not be tolerated by any means, lest God destroy our nation.

So, part of what I want to do is measure the general opinion of these things here, so if you would, please provide a quick and simple answer to the four following questions in your post:

1.  Do the Christians (a majority) stand a chance of getting Bible-based legislation passed?

2.  Do you believe that Bible-based legislation SHOULD be passed?

3.  Do you feel that religion and politics intertwine naturally and that an American Theocracy in favor of the majority is inevitable?

4.  If a Christian juggernaut formed and began moving towards a Theocracy, what would you do? (Either to help it or stop it.)

All these things are spinning my mind around and around.  I just wanna start talking and see how you feel about these things, I'm not particularly interested in drawing sides and turning this into a debate.  That usually happens anyway, but let's just keep it calm as long as possible.

[MillsJROSS]

1. They already have done so.

2. Bible based, no. Ethically based...yes. Although, this in itself leaves a lot of issues up in the air.

3. They do intertwine to a degree, but while the majority of the U.S. is Christian. Many of those christians have view points that aren't necessarily bible based. And as there is a system of checks and balances, even if something outragously passed into law, could be turned over in time.

4. If it turns out the majority of people want to live this way, it's a majority rules country with minority rights. If those rights are taken away, I'm not sure what I'd do. Probably move somewhere else.

-MillsJROSS

[Kinoko]

1.  Some, I guess, but nothing really earth-shattering.

2.  No.

3.  No.

4.  Complain a lot, I guess. But I'm Australian so it wouldn't affect me directly ^_^

It's really only hit me in the last couple of years just how strong religeon is in the US. I always thought America was such a liberal country before then, like Australia. None of this shit would pass in Aust. Christians are becoming fewer and fewer, and those that still are are generally becoming more liberal. It's a good thing!

I consider both Australia and Japan to be kind of 'home' to me now, and I'm very happy neither country gives much of a fuck about religion.

[ildu]

1. In the States, yes. In the rest of the civilized world, no.
2. No way.
3. It's all relative, but total separation of church and state is generally the best option. I don't see anything good ever to have come from religious-based legislature and logically religion should never have a role in politics. Through the view of the rest of the world, the US is way too religious for it's own good. And I don't think a theocracy is what it's going to. I believe people are coming around.
4. I wouldn't do anything. I live in Finland, so it wouldn't pose any immediate threat to me. But, there are examples of such people, for example, Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell.

But wouldn't you agree than the mainstream religion isn't Christianity at all - It's a mutation. Although everyone preaches otherwise, Christianity doesn't follow Jesus' teachings any more, does it? Christianity nowadays is just another vehicle for power-hungry individuals and causes to get what they want. The Christianity followed by the government is already way different from what Christianity is supposed to represent. I'm myself a Lutheran, but not religiously. I support the church, because they run some outstanding social programs and services, but otherwise I'm agnostic. The US is in some ways an ideal place for misreligion to blossom. For example, anyone preaching God while running for government in Europe would be scolded and would never be elected while in the States it's almost necessary.

My main concern towards the US and it's policies is the environment. It's the only threat that might affect me, my country and my continent immensely. The fact that the government censors scientists who study global warming and everyone in power seems to have ties to the oil business is much more alarming than any religious or terrorist threat. I don't want Manhattan, Venice and Helsinki to be under water 20 years from now, just so that a handful of billionaire cowboys can make some more pocket change.

[TheYak]

I'm coming from a semi-similar angle.  I was raised Christian, left it, and had some head-butting with family and friends (former friends who've since disassociated from me).

1. Bible-based legislation has passed, but as far as further blatantly theocratic laws go, I think we'll see more of it take the route of the creationism-morphed-to-intelligent design issue, thinly veiled but supported by enough of each side to pass it.

2. I don't think Bible-based legislation should be passed.  Ethics should be based on common sense and the common welfare, not an arbitrary mistranslated book that lends itself to interpretation and contradicts some of its own statements on values.

3. The Theocracy based upon the majority is already in effect - not a theocracy as such, but we are still living in a country that essentially requires its leaders to be Christian with no decisions made that contradict the common beliefs of the various Christian denominations.

4. There's little that can be done if it's moving that way.  As evidenced in these forums and through real-life observation, religious persons don't take to debate very well.  If the US became a truly theocratic government that ignored the rights of those not of Christian faith, other than voting (as mentioned, against the majority), protesting (again.. in the minority), or lecturing/debating (without impact likely), there'd be little for me to do but leave.

There are some assumptions made that have dubious validity.  I keep hearing from religious people about the US being founded in Christianity.  However, historians seem to disagree.  Of the founding fathers, a minority were Christian, but the population was decidedly protestant.  While there was a founding doctrine declaring the separation of church and state to be necessary, no law actually forces the issue. 

In my opinion, it's in the best interests of both the Christians and non-Christians that there is a separation of the two influences.  I think Christians would find their theocracy become a Monkey's Paw lesson once government had a say in church doctrine.

[Radiant]

Separation of church and state is essential to democracy and freedom of speech. Blurring the border would quite literally be undoing five centuries of civilization (not to mention education) and returning to the middle ages. I could recommend any number of books on the subject (Revolt in 2100 by Heinlein, Endymion by Dan Simmons, and of course American Theocracy by Kevin Phillips), or the recent movie V for Vendetta.

1. You know they do, if you look into recent issues such as forcing school teachers to teach intelligent design, the pending overturn of Roe v Wade, and the Terry Schiavo case.

2. Absolutely not. Law is about rationality; belief is about passion. The two don't mix.

3. Quite possibly so, at least in the central states. The coastlines seem to be more open-minded about issues. An interesting study in Science magazine shows a strong inverse correlation between level of education, and belief in religious dogma.

4. Never go anywhere near the country again. I know several people that already don't.

The essence of the issue is that people should think for themselves. This implies two things. First, we must educate people to actually think and be critically minded; religious education tends towards the opposite. Second, we must be tolerant towards other people who think differently than we do; again, religious dogma tends towards the opposite. (For instance, pro-choice people want to be able to think for themselves, whereas pro-life people want to force the decision for everyone; and don't tell me that has no roots in religion).

A country with no freedom of religion would be lying to call itself home of the free. A society where people no longer think for themselves is stagnant at best, doomed at worst.

[fred]

Raggit: My respect for bringing up a serious subject like this

1. I don't know. If the Christians are really a political majority, of course they could pass a religiously based legislation, and it would be legal, within the frames of a democracy.

2. I DON'T think a Bible-based legislation should be passed, I love(d) America for it's freedom and diversity and hate to see it tense. It's almost a new kind of McCarthyism, caused by the new threat from terrorism - everybody want to show that they're on the right side, being patriots and Christians, but what is that going to help in addressing the real problems?

3. There's a moral dimension to politics, whether it be religious or not. But there's also a very real possibility of deception, that is brought about about by controlling the media and silencing the opposition. So people in power sway between DOING good and REDEFINING good, never actually doing anything bad. Religion with all it's contradictions, paradoxes and possibilities of justificaton, is a handy tool in this. I don't think an American Theocracy is inevitable, but it would mean short-term strength (at a high cost to the non-believers) and long-term stagnation in religious dogma. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

4. If a Christian Juggernaut formed, I would continue to vote, speak and act to the effect of solving the problems that cause fear and anxiety. When people aren't scared, they don't need religion as much, and they are less likely to follow irrational and warped decrees by their leaders.

[Timosity]

1) quite possibly, scary thought

2) No way, in this day and age, really bad idea, how many wars are caused by this type of thing (pretty much all of them)

3) That's the biggest mistake in history, they have nothing in common, it's just that a lot of people in politics are religious

4) eat a custard tart, smoke a cigarette, have a few beers, yawn, and go to sleep


Thinking about religion too much can cause more problems than drugs and alcohol, (as proven by society [everywhere]{which in turn leads to more people turning to drugs and alcohol})

There is no way to prove whether any religion is right, it is just taught to believe without question (the evil part) so when it comes down to it, nobody knows the answers, that's why there is debate all over the world, that leads to anger, which leads to war, which leads to how much oil costs, which leads to war etc

There are pleanty of non christian (non religious) people that carry the same values and morals without having to beat themselves up over living up to unreal expectations.

Live life as it comes, we don't know what's around the corner, but that's one of the beauties of living in this world.

Just enjoy what comes your way (unless it's a wmd), if you think "oh, i'm giving into temptation" then think again, who is really judging you?

[HillBilly]

A system based on religion would never work, since everyone got their own view on the same thing. And there's like 20 different bibles, and most of them are contradicting eachother.

But I don't doubt that alot of people would try.

[Disco]

1.  I don't think the problem is as deep rooted as most think. It seems this way because the current administration was just barely elected the past two elections. Actually, the Democrats won the 2000 election by individual vote, but Republicans took the House via electoral college, and in 2004 they won by a very small margin. The reason why all these religious articles are permeating our politics is because right now there is really only one voice putting things out in the media. Was it nearly as bad when Clinton was president?

2.  Not because it is bible-based, no. However I do believe some things in there aren't inherently christian, yet just plain common sense. A lot of people who think certain concepts are christian-based  obviously never took a good look at other cultures or holy books. I've honestly known people who were against gay marriage "because [marriage] is a christian practice", like they invented it or something  .

3.  I believe in older civilisations they intertwined naturally becasue most were theocracies. I don't believe an American theocracy will ever happen. I firmly believe that slowly but surely the threat is exiting stage right (XD)

4.  I would feel more pressure to try and move. Though Michigan and other states by themselves are nice and there are many good and sane people here, I've been wanting to move to someplace that's a bit more my speed (liberal), but you have to be either independently wealthy or marrying someone for a green card, and I am neither of those kinds of people.

[Raggit]

3. ...An interesting study in Science magazine shows a strong inverse correlation between level of education, and belief in religious dogma.

Those are just liberal lies from Godless "scientists!!!!" Ã, 

That's exactly what most any PolitiChristian would say about the studies. Ã, 
I learned that it doesn't matter what you say, no matter what sources you provide, it's all just liberal media lies, etc. Ã, The types of people I've spent hours talking with (I know, I know, it doesn't accomplish anything) will go to any length to "filibuster" or dismantle your argument by demanding source after source, and then denouncing it as liberal lies, no matter what.

That's the scary thing to me, that no amount of reasoning, debate, or sources can get through. Ã, Because they fused politics and religion, they cannot allow themselves to rethink their political stance, because that might mean they have to rethink their religious stance, and that would be doubting God, and that must be from Satan, so don't even allow those thoughts to take root!

That's what personally happened to me (not involving politics, though) Ã, I never sat down and actually rationalized about God or my religion, because I believed it would lead me right into unbelief.
think about them. Ã, But that eventually came to an end, and I ended up where I am now.

I'm coming from a semi-similar angle. I was raised Christian, left it, and had some head-butting with family and friends (former friends who've since disassociated from me).

I hope it doesn't come to that with me. Ã, 

[Disco]

I hope it doesn't come to that with me. 

Don't worry, you won't know about it. They will just make a nickname for you between themselves and talk about your satanist ways at their network church.

[Radiant]

1.  The reason why all these religious articles are permeating our politics is because right now there is really only one voice putting things out in the media. Was it nearly as bad when Clinton was president?

Well, that serves to demonstrate that a two-party system, in the present day and age, is inherently flawed.

3.  I believe in older civilisations they intertwined naturally becasue most were theocracies.

Greeks and Romans got it worked out pretty well, though.

Those are just liberal lies from Godless "scientists!!!!"

Oh believe me, I've heard that 'argument' before. If people are so narrow-minded that they're willing to contradict known and observable fact, there really is no point in discussing anything with them.

Ironically, one of the most important and most often ignored phrases in the Bible is "judge not lest ye be judged". If religious dogmatics wouldn't be so judgmental about everything else, we wouldn't have a problem.

[Squinky]

Raggit, just don't hop from the "crazy religous camp" to the "Crazy I hate Bush and won't listen to reason camp". Not everything is black and white, don't allow yourself to be a sheep led by popular opinion.

[Nikolas]

Where is rharpe?  I need an official answer from him!

After that I will post my answers! 

[MashPotato]

One shouldn't lump different religions into one entity, and say that religion as a whole is against the idea of democracy and progressive ideas.Ã,  Things are rarely that simple.

Coincidentally, there was an article in today's Toronto Star that touches on this issue.Ã,  Here's the link if you're interested:
Faith and the Left
For those unfamiliar with Canadian politics, Canada has a multi-party system, and the New Democratic Party (NDP) is squarely on the left.

EDIT: hopefully fixed link, sorry bout that ^_^

[Tiki]

Somebody mentioned narrow-mindedness a few posts ago...

I know it's popular to be open-minded these days, and I think that's good to a reasonable extent.  However, truth is narrow.  You can't be open about certain things - either they're true, or they are not.  There are some issues on which I am glad I am "narrow-minded."

Edit: MashPotato - can you edit your link so it doesn't screw up the thread width?  thanks

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

2. Absolutely not. Law is about rationality; belief is about passion. The two don't mix.

Are you SURE about that? Does reason completely devoid of passion even exist? Can it?

[Helm]

2. Absolutely not. Law is about rationality; belief is about passion. The two don't mix.

Are you SURE about that? Does reason completely devoid of passion even exist? Can it?

It's a very nice way to look at things, Radiant, but Law is about imposing restriction, and has abstract moral founding to do that. And morality is very much about passion as well. So... what OSquinky said.

[Nikolas]

Helm, Stranger, Radiant: I would actually say that law is there to determine differences! simple! You have a problem? Fiar on unfair, the law is there to solve it! It is not based on anything really but common sense (there's that word again... sorry guys)! No morality in! Law has no morals! It is not illegal to cheat on your wife. It is illegal because you have promised not to do so! There is a difference!

The Questions now:

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. Stop it! From my experience (which cannot be doubted, because it's mine! I'm not claiming it's right, or it's a lot or anything, but this is where I base what I'm saying! Heck that was fun!) I find that most christians are close (narrow at least) minded and passionate beyond control to save the rest of you(us, me everyone). I would probably joim the rebel forces against christianity!