I've just been watching Harry Potter and TCOS and I have noticed something that really annoys me. In this film(and the books) many words or phrases have been changed to " make sure everbody understands the action". This seems really patronising to me. I am sure people fro america, Australia and othere egnlish speaking countries fully understand what the word "forbidden" means. Where is the need to change it to dark?
This might be just me looking for arguments but it really annoys me. I mean the first books title was even changed wasn't it? Philospiher to Sorcerer. That just seems stupid. Why is it just sassumed that Nobody will understand what Philosipher means?
I could just take the british view that most americans can't find their arse with a torch but i don't. Just because you live over the ocean, does your intelligence drop so you don't understand 3 syllable words?
Sorry for ranting but does anyone else agree?
Look man I'm American but I think you're right.Ã, I mean they change all those words and make us look stupider than we really are.Ã, When it comes to crap like that why can't we just leave it alone.
---Edit---
I mean we can fully understand the original words yet they they think they HAVE to change it...its gay
Everything keeps being changed to american... I was wondering about where had the forbidden forrest gone to in the movies too... (finnish version of the book, anyways...)
I've once seen the original intro sequence of pokemon, and numberous times the american version....
when I think of philosopher, I think of Socrates or Plato. These men were full of thought but performed little magic. Beyond Harry Potter, I have never been aware of philosophers performing magic. Does that make me dumb or am I simply exposed to different word usages?
Right, so Hollywood felt its US demographic would see movie posters and be bored by the concept of Plato and his kidney. C'est la life.
Part of what you would learn in film school is that the audience if full of idiots. With that, you need to design the movie so that idiots could understand it. But yes, what they did was very unneccesary.
What I'm learning is that the audience is full of people seeking entertainment. If one word is keeping you from being entertained, you are a lost cause.
With regards to the comment "its gay"
Not only does "its" have an apostrophe in it (it's "it's" not "its") but this is also homophobic.
Perhaps it's because people feel it's ok to be bigoted (as demonstrated byÃ, 00jon00's feeling it's ok to use "gay" as a derogatory word) that they also feel it's ok to embrace stereotypes, and thus dumb things down for the American audience.
Mind you, as with ANY society, there will ALWAYS be more stupid people in America than clever people. And America is the biggest movie market in the west, and thus it's more important that the stupid people in America aren't alienated.
Now, obviously 00jon00 isn't one of these stupid people, but by making films stupid-friendly, clever people won't be put off, so it's not like companies have to chose if they want stupid OR clever people to see the film when they can have both!
THAT'S why films are made accessible for people like George Bush Jr.
EDIT:
This post seems a little redundant, since the three posts made while I was writing it explained it a lot better...
Although it IS probably worth noting that not everyone will have heard of "Philosopher's stones", so when they hear it in a title, they won't have a shared value to go with it, so they won't be as interested as they would be if it were a flashy word...
You know Captain Mostly you make a very good point 8)
Seconded.
I can see them changing Philosopher's stone to Sorcerer's ((spelling?) (I'm out of it)) stone, because when I think of Philosopher's stone then I think of some old hairy guy bent over examing a rock, but when I think of Sorcerer's stone then it brings to mind an evil wizard dude bent on world domination-which seems a lot more interesting
I thought it was a porn movie. But then again, I've only read the swedish version of Harry Potter. Maybe I'm just a little perverted.
Quotewe can fully understand the original words yet they they think they HAVE to change it...its gay
Actually that strikes me more as a straight thing to do. As we all know, gays are much more intellectual and sophisticated and use fancy foreign words all the time :P
But really, the issue about the change is that "Sorceror's Stone" has no meaning. At least I've never heard that used anywhere else. "The Philosopher's Stone" on the other hand is an alchemist term for a legendary object that would, either in itself or as a vital ingredient, turn base metals like lead into gold. I don't really remember how it's related to the plot in the first Potter movie (not that I really care after playing Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban for 10-15 hours a day two months in a row), but nevertheless, a lot of people are familiar with the original term. I've even come across it in several games, like GK3 and Shadow of Memories.
I don't really think it was about Americans not understanding the word "philosopher" but rather the reference contained in the term "philosopher's stone". And well, most Americans probably think philosophy and philosophers sound pretty boring (imagine a movie called "Harry Potter and Heidegger, Kant and Hegel's Stone").
thats my point. although sorcerors stone is easy to understand it does not carry the meaning of "Philosophes Stone". The PS is an mystical object but sorceors stone (as far as I know) has never been used before in any other stories. No dead english Kings went in search of it. Nobody has written a book about it (JK wrote the Philosophers ston) it has just been changed for ease of understanding. This to me is not necessary as it is just a name. IT does not require understanding as such. It is like changing Cyclops to one eyed guy just so you can understand it.
Please remember that this is a children's movie; some children can't understand the "high-tech" words, and the producer probably wants to ensure that every child can indeed watch this movie without any difficulty.
Random Fact: Did you know that the front page news articles on the newspaper are written at a 6th grade level? Not everyone can understand the more "syllable-y" words.
I recenlty visited Hollywood and found this while going through a studio's garbage:
ATT: ALL PRODUCTION STAFF
FROM: THE GUYS AT THE TOP
PLEASE NOTE THAT WE HAVE DECIDED TO CHANGE THE FOLLOWING OCCUPATIONS IN ALL SCRIPTS IN ORDER NOT TO CONFUSE THE MOVIE-GOING PUBLIC.
PHILOSOPHER - SORCERER
SCIENTIST - NERD
ACTIVIST - HIPPY
ARCHAEOLOGIST - BULL FIGHTER
PIANIST - DJ
NOVELIST - FINGER PAINTER
NAVAL OFFICER - POOL CLEANER
CRIMINOLOGIST - BATMAN
ALSO PLEASE CHANGE THE FOLLOWING WORDS:
CARBURETOR - ENGINE
MATRIMONY - HITCHED
TRIGONOMETRY - MATHS
GASTROINTESTINAL - FARTING
EXISTENTIALISM - WHOA!
THANK YOU!
However, keep in mind that such Americanism are a product of Hollywood movies. Sometimes, production is different in other areas and in other media. Take these two examples from different production areas and different media sources:
EXAMPLE 1:
(http://helkop.hr.nt2.ims.hr/baza/forumatik/127.jpg)
"Good lord, dear listeners! I seem to be suffering from some gastrointestial problems! Must have been that fillet mignon I had."
EXAMPLE 2:
(http://www.haro-online.com/stuff/dudewhe2.jpg)
"Dude! That fart was awesome! Must have been that steak you ate!"
Thus, we conclude the lesson for today.
I think your post, Zoofruit (Which in essence is: "We're going to chang the worlds that the brittish understand into ones tha the stupid Americans will") should be more like "We're going to change words into something our audience (10-year old kids) will...
I agree that the world is "Americanising", and I'm opened to discuss if that is good or bad... But I don't think this is a good example.
Quote from: Haddas on Wed 02/06/2004 11:29:14
I thought it was a porn movie. But then again, I've only read the swedish version of Harry Potter. Maybe I'm just a little perverted.
Haddas, I think you are thinking or the "X-rated" version of: "Harry PotHead and the Sorceress was Stoned!" ;D
Heheh..
Quote from: Farlander on Wed 02/06/2004 12:26:11
I agree that the world is "Americanising", and I'm opened to discuss if that is good or bad... But I don't think this is a good example.
You know, the world is "Americanising", but whats so wrong with America???
Of course, the changing of the title didn't start with the movie.
The original book had its title changed to "...Sorcerer's Stone" (along with some things like "motorbike" to "motorcycle", or vice versa, I can't remember which is the British one). So I can't really blame the filmmakers for wanting to keep the title that many kids are already accustomed to in America.
All in all, I have to give the filmmakers credit for conforming to J K Rowling's wishes and using an almost all-British cast in the movie (unlike the cinematic abortion that "Constantine" will no doubts turn out to be).
It's not really that America is bad, it's just that the world shouldn't have to adjust itself to suit American audiences. There are other countries apart from America, after all...
00jon00 where in the sentence "The world is Americanisating and I'm opened to discuss if that is good or not" do you see I have something against America?
Maybe I've misstyped something or something? Please make me know, English is not my mother tongue and sometimes I piss it off...
(Like when I said "That jacket has flurry chapels" in spite of "Flurry lapels" XD.
EXACTLY! I'm not saying harry potter is the only eample it is just the one that came to mind because I was watching the film. I'm not saying that America is bad. It's one of my favourite places to b but I don't think we should have to do everything to suit america just because it is so darn big! ( sorry if this is insulting to any americans, it is probably my english, i hate george bush hooray for micheal moore opinion rearing its ugly head) As long as nobody touches Artemis fowl i'll be happy
I've gotta get out of this argument before it gets to serious guys...and Farlander...don't worry about your english, its fine
Looky, my very own hot topic! I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument and it by no means a jab at Americans! I am just annoyed by simplifying things for a world stage. Aits just the only reason I used america was it is in the american version of HP no other reason! I should have called it simplification!
Dont worry about Zootyfruit...you got a hot topic on your hands! congrats man
It's silly and all, but I don't see that non American audiences, especially non English speaking non American audiences, are much more likely to know the concept of the philosopher's stone [though it's general knowledge, really]. It's a bit sad the Americans can cut the flack for their studio's lack of faith in them.
Truth be told, the rest of the world is equally capable of ignorance and stupidity.
In Japan, they changed the title to "Young Boy Gets Lucky Surprise Rock of the Moon-Spirit".
they should have used that title! made it much more accesible
Nah, it's not a good idea, cause in the Japanese version, Harry was a ninja robot that had to fight a tentacle monster that was raping all the Hogwarts girls.
Quote from: Las Naranjas on Wed 02/06/2004 13:42:23
Truth be told, the rest of the world is equally capable of ignorance and stupidity.
But when the Americans do it, they do it with the largest and most powerful economy and army in the world...
Quote from: DGMacphee on Wed 02/06/2004 13:56:17
Nah, it's not a good idea, cause in the Japanese version, Harry was a ninja robot that had to fight a tentacle monster that was raping all the Hogwarts girls.
/me visits amazon.co.jp to order some copies...
I recall that Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy had a similar bowdlerisation for the American edition when they change the work "Fuck" to "Belgium". Then they launched into a long-winded but funny explanation of why Belgium was the worst swearword everywhere in the whole universe, except for one, mostly harmless, little blue and green planet...
Quote from: Las Naranjas on Wed 02/06/2004 13:42:23
Truth be told, the rest of the world is equally capable of ignorance and stupidity.
I agree ^_^ Not knowing what the philosophal stone was is a peoblem of ignorance not related to the place you're from.
About the globalization issue... Some things are cool and some other not. I'm not in the mood really for discussing more... :)
But if it was changed for children, why was it only changed for American children? Here in the UK, it stayed "Philosopher"
ALSO, the book was a kids book, and it was still philosopher there. The point of the Philosopher's stone was that it was picking up on a classical reference (like having, basically, cerberus in the secret room etc... Harry Potter is full of, and reliant on, these references for it's accessability).
Mind you. I guess it makes no difference, as it's not really taking away from the book, which will remain the same, no matter what Film Boss's do.
Has anyone read Biggot Hall? That had it's name changed for the American Audience...
Also, THE CLAY MACHINE GUN has a different name in America. But then again, I don't think "THE CLAY MACHINE GUN" is a real translation of the origional Russian title. I've no idea what that is though. Anyone who could enlighten me would be blessed with mild gratitude!
Oh, missunderstanding... I thought the change came while the book to movie process, not during the exportation of the fil from the UK to the US. Does that mean that there are two english versions of the film? Curious...
I am lack of arguments now! :D
What I find really odd is that up here in Igloo-Land (Canada), we get all of the original, non Americanized versions of things, like Harry Potter and Discworld.
Not that I'm complaining, obviously.
I first found out about the name and history behind the Philosopher's Stone from a comic I read when I was 12 or so. Had it been called the Sorceror's Stone in the comic I would still be clueless about what the Philosopher's Stone was. I can understand the logic behind changing it, but I can't see why they couldn't keep the original term and educate the readers.
Quote from: SSH on Wed 02/06/2004 14:05:58
I recall that Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy had a similar bowdlerisation for the American edition when they change the work "Fuck" to "Belgium". Then they launched into a long-winded but funny explanation of why Belgium was the worst swearword everywhere in the whole universe, except for one, mostly harmless, little blue and green planet...
I actually found that funny. Didn't Adams himself put that bit in?
Quote from: Farlander on Wed 02/06/2004 14:40:52
Oh, missunderstanding... I thought the change came while the book to movie process, not during the exportation of the fil from the UK to the US. Does that mean that there are two english versions of the film? Curious...
Yes, apparently there are.
http://imdb.com/title/tt0241527/alternateversions (http://imdb.com/title/tt0241527/alternateversions)
Quote
EXAMPLE 1:
(http://helkop.hr.nt2.ims.hr/baza/forumatik/127.jpg)
"Good lord, dear listeners! I seem to be suffering from some gastrointestial problems! Must have been that fillet mignon I had."
EXAMPLE 2:
(http://www.haro-online.com/stuff/dudewhe2.jpg)
"Dude! That fart was awesome! Must have been that steak you ate!"
DGMacphee, keep in mind that you can't have two dumb guys speaking intelligently in a film. It's movie logic.
Quote from: DGMacphee on Wed 02/06/2004 12:18:41
ARCHAEOLOGIST - BULL FIGHTER
Olé!
I can just imagine the next Indiana Jones movie,
Indiana Jones and the Giant Friggin' Bull. They don't call it a bullwhip for nothin'!!
QuoteDGMacphee, keep in mind that you can't have two dumb guys speaking intelligently in a film. It's movie logic.
Quiet you! I got top marks in my film analysis class, which makes me UBER FILM GOD WITH GIANT PENIS!
Pesty: I had a feeling you'd dig that.
Harry Potter is no freak, lots of films in English are cut differently for the British and American market, plus it's not a British film. When 'Brassed Off' played in the US they added a mini-history at the start explaining who the Tories were and so on.
On the Americanisation front, do you remember FilmFour's 'The Madness of King George'? The name was changed from 'The Madness of King George III' in case American audiences thought it was part of a trilogy.
But, of course, that's another case of film producers and distributors assuming Americans are stupid, not evidence that they actually are.
I think this whole thread/argument is not Americans being ignorant of language, but the world being ignorant of America.Not everyone born in the U.S of A is an idiot you know.
America hauls with it some big ass industries and therefore ideals such as globalisation essentialy now mean Americanisation... this is a shame but I feel recently there's been an increase in yank bashing and I don't get it.
P.S I'm not American (just so you know) :D
A lot of "Americanisms" in the English langauge are actually where the Americans have stuck with the language how it was when they colonisation started and the UK is the one that has changed it's usage... reading Bill Bryson's Made in America and Mother Tongue are revealing...
But... America has so much power over the rest of the world, that I think that we should get to vote in their elections, too. NO DOMINATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!
Now, I'm American, but I don't want to see an Americanization (hee!) of the world. The world should remain a varying and diverse place and to lose any of that is to lose our uniqueness.
As for the Americanization of movies, you'll have to make special versions for us. We're not that bright, you know. :P
Quote from: Ali on Thu 03/06/2004 16:08:48
On the Americanisation front, do you remember FilmFour's 'The Madness of King George'? The name was changed from 'The Madness of King George III' in case American audiences thought it was part of a trilogy.
Whoops! Not true. (http://www.snopes.com/movies/films/george.htm)
I'm 99% certain I've read something either there or on The Straight Dope about what SSH mentioned, too (namely that it is also mostly incorrect; IIRC the origin of the idea was that the pronounciation of English in some parts of the US was more similar to that of the first English colonists than that of any British dialect today, or something of the sort) - but I can't find it at the moment. Some googling yields only more confusion both about the subject and about Bill Bryson's knowledge of it, so I can't really say more now.
You may be right, but snopes says it was released everywhere without the 'III' and the IMDB says it was called Madness of King George III in Australia:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110428/
I don't like the way that the italian job was re-raleased and the suposed re-release of the great escape from america and the old war movies ie battle of britain i think it was where they make the american the hero when they were nothing to do with it. but that is just money hungry film companies changing history to sell more, and re-releasing classics and put more action in them to sell more.
-daz
Now there's a good point. U571 anyone? Yes, the AMericans did capture an Enigma machine... 3 years after the brits had it. The brits warned the Americans about sub attacks and the americans ignored them....
as for teh Madness of King George III.... the III was added for Australian release because Australians are so dumb they wouldn't go and see a movie UNLESS they think it is a sequel... :P
Technology-wise, America is intelligent and clever. We may be merely riding on the coattails of other countries, but it's better than being left behind.
Quote from: Zootyfruit on Wed 02/06/2004 10:21:41
I mean the first books title was even changed wasn't it? Philospiher to Sorcerer. That just seems stupid. Why is it just sassumed that Nobody will understand what Philosipher means?
I could just take the british view that most americans can't find their arse with a torch but i don't.
I maybe American, but I can spell PHILOSOPHER.
And yes, I did find my ass with the aid of a torch. It burns. That's all I'll say.
;D
Bt
Quote from: Ali on Thu 03/06/2004 16:08:48
On the Americanisation front, do you remember FilmFour's 'The Madness of King George'? The name was changed from 'The Madness of King George III' in case American audiences thought it was part of a trilogy.
Personally, I was wondering what happened to Malcolm part I to IX.
Quote from: Esseb on Wed 02/06/2004 15:40:01
I first found out about the name and history behind the Philosopher's Stone from a comic I read when I was 12 or so. Had it been called the Sorceror's Stone in the comic I would still be clueless about what the Philosopher's Stone was. I can understand the logic behind changing it, but I can't see why they couldn't keep the original term and educate the readers.
I agree totally. Not everything in a movie/book/whatever has to be immediately understandable to everyone. I would imagine that part of the fun of rwading the Harry Potter books when you're young is to find out about certain words/terms/references you've never heard of, or even to inspire you to seek them out. I know I personally -love- films and books that have all sorts of references I don't know about so I can read about them later and go, "Oh wow, that makes it even better!".
I understand the argument about making things accessable and hence. profitable... but why don't we all just say, "Fuck that."
Part of the reason the general movie going population is stupid is because of the way to movie industry doesn't let people grow. It's what I see when I look at kids' shows like Tellie Tubbies (or that god awful colourful alien one that's I saw the other day... CHRIST! Freaky shit....). They don't encourage kids to grow, just to stay on the same old level as always. Personally, I think they could make, "Harry Potter and the Tax Return that Just Kept On Going" and they'd still get record sales. Why not take advantage of the huge dedicated fanbase it has and give the kids some freaking education? I have to be a teacher one day... I don't want to have to teach them how to put their freaking shoes on. Why can't the media help?
I still don't get why Every other country thinks America is a big stupid mass of people that carry guns around everywhere and drive big SUV's whilst eating our McDonalds.
I'm sorry.. But what a fraction of the American population does is not what ALL of America does.
As goes for any country.. Not all Canadians say 'eh'. Not all Britons drink tea... Not all Afghanis wear turbans..
Bah.
Quote from: [lgm] on Fri 04/06/2004 13:48:29
I still don't get why Every other country thinks America is a big stupid mass of people that carry guns around everywhere and drive big SUV's whilst eating our McDonalds.
Obviously, some Americans only do one or two of these things...
Your post is really funny when you realise it's basically an ever bigger generalisation than the generalisation that it is complaining about... This is your cue for you to claim that you were being ironic and then we'll
all know you're lying, as everyone knows that if there's one generalisation about Americans that is true, it's that they don't understand irony.
Quote from: Daz on Thu 03/06/2004 19:59:22
I don't like the way that the italian job was re-raleased and the suposed re-release of the great escape from america and the old war movies ie battle of britain i think it was where they make the american the hero when they were nothing to do with it
Exactly - this backs up my argument of globalisation == Americanisation.
Why is the only city anyone cares about new-bloody-york ? Example -
A film is made ("day after tomorrow") where the polar caps melt or something and the world freezes over - where is the most dramaticaly hurt place? where is the film based? New York.
Thank you Hollywood ::)
hmm... looks what happens when you disappear for 2 days. Everyone else steals your opinions!
Um... yeah... changing the harry potter title was stupid. If people watched the movie, it became kind of obvious that it wasn't an actual philosopher who posessed a stone. I may have a low opinion of some americans, but as a whole, I think they're smart enough to figure that one out for themselves. I also think as a whole, too much is being changed to suit americans. I was watching an ad on tv the other day and saw the word MOM! M-O-M! AS IN MOM! WITHOUT THE 'U', LIKE IN MUM! I SAW MOM! ON AN AUSTRALIAN AD!
I mean - I appreciate the need for things to be spelled right for americans, but when they just stick it on Australian tv it makes my blood boil. Because - yes - John Howard will do everything in his power to give us the education and health system that is already in place in America. And then when John Howard retires (predictably in the near future) we will be left with Peter Costello (who in my mind looks like a pedophile) and he will all want us to say crap like "Don't mess with mah brova, girlfriend," in that african-american way you see on Jerry Springer (no that I watch it) and then I forget where I was going with this argument so I shut up.
yeah... basically that 'mom' ad is stupid, and I wish people would realise we don't WANT to be american, despite what our prime minister says. not many people hold a low opinion of america (maybe some americans, like me, but not the whole country). I just want to keep our already some-what fading culture.
Quote from: SSH on Fri 04/06/2004 13:58:36
Quote from: [lgm] on Fri 04/06/2004 13:48:29
I still don't get why Every other country thinks America is a big stupid mass of people that carry guns around everywhere and drive big SUV's whilst eating our McDonalds.
Obviously, some Americans only do one or two of these things...
Your post is really funny when you realise it's basically an ever bigger generalisation than the generalisation that it is complaining about... This is your cue for you to claim that you were being ironic and then we'll all know you're lying, as everyone knows that if there's one generalisation about Americans that is true, it's that they don't understand irony.
Why is it funny? I drive a Mercury Mystique and loathe fast food. And I understand irony.
And I was being a cynical bastard, not ironic.
Yes, there's a big difference between cynicism and irony, people.
Quote from: Moebius 5.18 on Fri 04/06/2004 16:10:19
Quote from: SSH on Fri 04/06/2004 13:58:36
Quote from: [lgm] on Fri 04/06/2004 13:48:29
I still don't get why Every other country thinks America is a big stupid mass of people that carry guns around everywhere and drive big SUV's whilst eating our McDonalds.
Your post is really funny when you realise it's basically an ever bigger generalisation than the generalisation that it is complaining about...
Why is it funny? I drive a Mercury Mystique and loathe fast food.Ã, And I understand irony.
"Every other country thinks..." is a sweeping characterisation of around 6 billion people
"America is a big stupid mass of people that..." is a sweeping characterisation of far less people (is it about 200 million? I can't be bothered looking it up)
Quote from: Moebius 5.18 on Fri 04/06/2004 17:02:19
Yes, there's a big difference between cynicism and irony, people.
Yup... cynics can be ironic, but irons can't be cynical... ;)
Personally, I dont care if they change it to something somewhere else. I feel that if people want to change their own works, let them. Culture varies from country to country and so do littarary works since the beginning of time. For example if you are jewish you call it the torrah, if you are christian you call it the old testament. It still has the same content but a different title. Also roman and greek litterature. Mercury/Hermes Posieden/Neptune. There the same people withe different names. The romans did this so that they can call it their own, same with the christians (no hating intened). Maybe Jk changed it so that the Americans could claim it as one of theirs.