Did anyone see any anonymous raids in their city today?
Anonymous is a group trying to dismantle scientology. This is their press release: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQKbHBqDwSI&feature=bz302
And theres a video of the one closest to me here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8FW53B8_dk
There's a friend of mine, tall guy with blonde hair talking about 2 and 4 minutes in. Just wondering if anyone saw similair activities?
Seems a little juvenile. Was there some event that specifically triggered this protest or is it just a random gathering? I appreciate if something happened to spark this, but otherwise it just seems like the kids, yes kids, are only there to protest 'something', or anything (not saying Scientology isn't a worthy cause to protest). What makes it even more childish is the incorporation of the cheesiest post-Requiem song ever, Clint Mansell's Lux Aeterna, into the press release video. Some originality, please :D.
Enturbulation.org (http://www.enturbulation.org) is one of many places to find out about anons raids.
The biggest raids happened on the 10th of february where, as far as I know, almost 10000 people all over the world demonstrated outside Church of $cientology all over the world. It is actually almost like an ongoing "war" between anonymous and Co$ nowadays.
Next raid is on the 15th of march. Be there! ;)
Hehe, my country doesn't even recognise it as a religion, so they're forced to form 'clubs'...
Lets just hope it doesn't go the way of Jonestown...
- Huw
While I agree that Scientology (and ists) are a bit ... weird ... to my way of thinking. They've never done anything that affected me (other than creepin' me out a bit). I don't see anything [more] wrong with their "religion" than any other organized religion.
This Legion/Anonymous just seems like a publicity stunt ... and who wants to bet me that if they're successful or not they're somehow parlaying all this publicity into a way for them to make money. Which is why, if I understand it correctly, they are against Scientology (because of the money) in the first place.
I don't know ... it all seems a tad hypocritical and selfish to me.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Thu 14/02/2008 16:21:28
I don't see anything [more] wrong with their "religion" than any other organized religion.
Some recommended reading material, then (http://xenu.net/). No, it's not about the money.
Ever seen the 9-minute Tom Cruise Scientology Rant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O2_rZIgrQI&feature=related)? It's goddamn hilarious... Actors suck so much without scripts...
I love when he forgets what he's talking about, trails off, stares into space for a full 30 seconds and then bursts out laughing and starts talking about 'SPs'... ('Suppressive People', which is basically us...)
Anon are being branded as terrorists- but, to be honest, If I could have been there, I would have. Any 'religion' set up in the 1950s by a Sci-fi writer has something dodgy going on.
Although, no other religion is any better. If a scientologist murders, Scientology is a murderous cult, but if a christian murders, is christianity a murderous cult? Hmmm. These moral questions are the sort that make me glad I'm atheist.
Tom Cruise's rant isn't just hilarious, it's damning. It makes you see through the eyes of a zealot who thinks their way is the only way and that they seem willing (and able, through all their money) to do some pretty crazy things. Maybe they use some military drug-brainwash method to create stooges like him...or celebrities could, by nature, just be screwed up in the head.
I'll always stand by my opinion that Scientology was started by Hubbard as a lark just to prove that there are people out there that will follow and believe anything when presented a certain way.
Yeah, Darth, and anyone else who thinks that Scientologists are a bit off, but not dangerous should read more about Scientology. They destroy families and lives, steal money, enslave children, and kill their followers.
Who cares that they believe in some nutty alien overlord and thetans? They're doing things much worse than that.
These demonstrations may be pretty small overall, but if they stopped even one person from losing their life to this cult, then they were worth it.
http://xenu.net/ <--- A big collection of readings
http://www.lisamcpherson.org/ <----Woman killed by scientology
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/fishman1.html <---- My favorite story. Absolutely insane.
from http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/fishman.html :
///////////////////////////
The statements related to financial crimes which were committed by me, Steven Fishman, after I was trained to participate in a securities class action fraud scheme by Scientology staff members at the Church of Scientology Mimi Org and the Church of Scientology Mission of Fort Lauderdale. I spent the money obtained from the fraud on auditing, training, and for purchasing the third largest library of L. Ron Hubbard books, tapes, cassettes and E-Meters in the world.
After my arrest by the FBI in July of 1988, Church officials, church officials ordered me to murder my psychologist, Dr. Geertz, because I had confided in my psychologist about the details of my crime.
I was thrown into "Treason" a low ethics condition, and was told by my Ethics Officer Frank Thompson that I could work my way up from "Treason" by protecting the Church from the FBI investigation. I followed the orders of my Ethics Officer which resulted in my being charged with Obstruction of Justice. At the same time, Church attorney Timothy Bowles worked closely with the United States District Attorney in Los Angeles in order to secure my conviction and eliminate any exposure to the Church.
In an effort to suppress the Church's involvement in the fraud, Church officials ordered me to commit suicide, which was avoided due to a successful exit-counseling intervention by former members Margery Wakefield, Eddie Da Rocha, Richard Padilla, and through swift and effective therapy by Dr. Geertz.
///////////////////////////////////
If you have time, watch the multiple-hour interview with Fishman on google video:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Scientology:+Steven+Fishman+Deposition
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Fri 15/02/2008 00:02:02
Yeah, Darth, and anyone else who thinks that Scientologists are a bit off, but not dangerous should read more about Scientology. They destroy families and lives, steal money, enslave children, and kill their followers.
http://xenu.net/ <--- A big collection of readings
http://www.lisamcpherson.org/ <----Woman killed by scientology
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/fishman1.html <---- My favorite story. Absolutely insane.
from http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/fishman.html :
Meh, all that stuff sounds like bullshit propaganda. Even if it's true, protests aren't gonna solve much, anyway...
Anyone can say "Scientology tortures kittens! I know 'cause I was like, a high-ranking member and stuff! I am super, super serial..."
Which makes more sense, a cult spreading misinformation to make tons of money, or a group of people spreading misinformation to stop a legitimate and beneficial-to-society religion from getting more members?
Is that a trick question?
Scientologists starved a woman and had bugs bite her...
Catholicism gave silent ascent to the slave trade and sat back and did nothing while millions of Jews were butchered in WWII...
Muslims strap bombs on their bodies and kill civilians or crash planes into buildings...
Meh ... one's no better or worse than another to me.
You're right, Rui. "Legitamate and beneficial-to-society religion"... Ha! :P
No, what I meant in that poorly worded last post was that this is a loosely connected group of people that are trying to warn people about the dangers of joining a certain "religion." They aren't doing this for their own personal benefit, but for the benefit of society. Their information comes from multiple verifiable sources including court documents, personal testimony, and experience. So to say that they are spreading "bullshit propaganda" is kind of a strong statement. For what purpose would they be propagandizing?
Scientology is making hundreds of millions of dollars every year by running their scam masquerading as a religion. They have much more motive to be spreading misinformation than the people protesting them.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972865,00.html?internalid=ACA <----Read the time magazine piece from 1991. Reputable sources up and down.
I'm not saying other religions aren't bad, but if they're all bad, that doesn't mean we should ignore them.
Heh, by my post I didn't mean what you thought I meant. I meant, simply, that neither made sense, not really.
If you REALLY want to read into it, you could maybe extract the meaning "it's a funny old world."
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/02/2008 01:47:28
Scientologists starved a woman and had bugs bite her...
Atheists shot up a school (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre) in Colorado. YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK! ALL ATHEISTS MUST DIE FOR THEIR SINS!
Quoteor what purpose would they be propagandizing?
People are like that. Remember all the bullshit propaganda that PS3-fanboys put out about the Xbox 360? They don't personally benefit from
that. It's human nature - if someone thinks something is good, and someone else thinks it's bad, those two people will fling all sorts of crap at each other...
Yeah, and atheist killed some people, not saying it isn't a tragedy, but Scientology is an organization that has killed and will continue to kill. We aren't saying they deserve to die, just that people need to know about what they do. And try elaborating your point more, relying purely on sarcasm seems kinda juvenile.
Quote from: [Cameron] on Fri 15/02/2008 12:39:35
And try elaborating your point more, relying purely on sarcasm seems kinda juvenile.
It's very simple: Religion doesn't kill things - people do. Do you know how many millions of Muslims
haven't blown themselves up, and have no intention of doing so?
It's like the IRA. Thirty years ago, people looked at Ireland and said "OMG, it's a warzone down there - they're all killing each other on the streets." It's not true. The IRA are a group of dickhead terrorists, they are
not the
actual Irish Republican Army (in case you were wondering). Al Jazira are a group of dickhead terrorists - they don't represent Islam.
Just like Eric Harris and that other douche don't represent atheism...
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/02/2008 01:47:28
Meh ... one's no better or worse than another to me.
Well, you can either rely on your first impression to be absolutely infallible, or you could read into what facts are actually available on the different groups.
In particular, whether actions were the result of small extremist factions where in fact the larger religious group has a completely different opinion, or of authorized doctrine from the global leadership where the entire religious group tends towards the same sentiment.
Or you could stick your head in the sand, if you prefer. It's always easier to stick with set preconceptions, than to do actual research.
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Fri 15/02/2008 00:02:02If you have time, watch the multiple-hour interview with Fishman on google video: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Scientology:+Steven+Fishman+Deposition
I watched this a few weeks back, and I must say it's the most fascinating documentary I ever saw- and it's just an un-edited interview. It's excellent as an exposure of Scientology and their methods, but even more so as a portrait of an obsessive-compulsive guy with a religious mania. Everything he says is pure gold, and just wait till he shows off his collection of video tapes of his favourite TV show.
Edit: If it seems a bit slow at first, stay with it, the third part is where the madness really kicks in.
Oh, when I have the time, I plan to watch the whole thing. The very first question in the very beginning had me enthralled.
Quote from: Emerald on Fri 15/02/2008 12:49:51
Quote from: [Cameron] on Fri 15/02/2008 12:39:35
And try elaborating your point more, relying purely on sarcasm seems kinda juvenile.
It's very simple: Religion doesn't kill things - people do. Do you know how many millions of Muslims haven't blown themselves up, and have no intention of doing so?
It's like the IRA. Thirty years ago, people looked at Ireland and said "OMG, it's a warzone down there - they're all killing each other on the streets." It's not true. The IRA are a group of dickhead terrorists, they are not the actual Irish Republican Army (in case you were wondering). Al Jazira are a group of dickhead terrorists - they don't represent Islam.
Just like Eric Harris and that other douche don't represent atheism...
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. But the thing is about Scientology is that it
is their
religion that gets people killed. They don't believe in medications, and many people with mental illnesses end up committing suicide because they can't handle life without their medications. It's not just the few black sheep, it's the whole religion that believes this. A few of the people in Jonestown didn't believe they needed to commit suicide, does that mean the religion was any less dangerous?
Like Anonymous, I have nothing against the religion itself - if it helps people, then it's fine by me. Anonymous has a problem with the Church of Scientology, which is the organization behind it. So when you talk about this whole thing, don't pull the 'this religion isn't worse than X' card, because it's a moot point, since it's not about the religion, it's about the CoS using their power to ruin people's lives, that there's a 'fair game' system that allows Scientologists to attack those who openly diagree with/attack the church.
Anonymous knows this.
As I see the CoS (or Church of $cientology as anon calls it) It cannot be a religion because you have to pay. I feel a little scared terrified thinking in today's world, you have to pay to believe something.
My head is not buried in the sand...
Anonymous can whine, bitch, moan, and protest all they want and guess what? It will make no difference. People have been bitching about Scientology for the better part of 50 years and they're still here. They have a
right to be here. Just because we don't like 'em, doesn't change that fact.
I
have done enough "research" into this matter to backup what I said in my last post.
- Scientology hasn't backed any Crusades that slaughtered countless Jews and Muslims (including women and children).
- Scientologists didn't hijack planes and fly them into buildings a few years ago.
So people can rally against the Church of Scientology all they want, and people can rally for it ... makes no difference to me. From my own point of view, I don't like "pissin' in the wind". Meaning I don't like taking a stand on something that will make no difference. It's a waste of time.
People who are opposed to Scientology are entitled, those for it are entitled as well. It should be pointed out that I'm not wild about Scientology (or the Church of Scientology since it seems important to point that out though I don't see the distinction really) I'm just pointing out things as I see them.
As far as "paying" to be a Scientologist ... I've been to countless Christian masses and watched every time as the "donation" plate was passed around. Week after week ... so the fact that you have to pay for the Church of Scientology still doesn't set them apart from other churches to me. They all take your money in some fashion.
Do you really think because things happened in the past, things should be allowed to happen in the future?
Lots of people have protested lots of things for more than 50 years. Just giving up because the thing you're protesting hasn't been shut down completely is a poor plan. You bring up bad things other people have done for their religious views, why not stamp out a growing religion now instead of wait for them to commit larger scale atrocities that will affect you?
If no one was bitching [which is a great word to diminish the arguments and efforts people are making against scientology] for 50 years, who knows how much more power and influence they'd have now.
I absolutely marvel how people get so heated at these kinds of debates.
Keep on protesting if you want. I never suggested that people shouldn't protest ... simply that it's a waste of time that I won't take part in.
What the Church of Scientology
might have done, without any of the protesting in the past, is pure speculation.
What
all of the Churches (including Scientology)
have done are the facts I take into consideration when forming my opinions.
Now don't get me wrong ... I find Scientology (and those that practice/preach it) incredibly creepy. I'm not supporting Scientology in anyway. Just expressing my opinion on the matter.
Quote from: MrColossal on Fri 15/02/2008 16:56:36Do you really think because things happened in the past, things should be allowed to happen in the future?
No, nor did I even suggest that.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/02/2008 17:42:21
I never suggested that people shouldn't protest ...
Actually you did - you called it hypocritical and selfish.
Some people have experienced nasty things with the COS and wish to protect others. You don't want to take part in that, because it hasn't affected you personally. It is left as an excercise to the reader which of the two is selfish.
Quote from: Radiant on Fri 15/02/2008 17:46:27
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/02/2008 17:42:21
I never suggested that people shouldn't protest ...
Actually you did - you called it hypocritical and selfish.
Actually I didn't. I expressed my opinion about
Anonymous' protest. I didn't say they shouldn't or couldn't protest. Just as the CoS has the right to exist, the people have the right to protest.
Quote from: Radiant on Fri 15/02/2008 17:46:27Some people have experienced nasty things with the COS and wish to protect others. You don't want to take part in that, because it hasn't affected you personally. It is left as an excercise to the reader which of the two is selfish.
No offense intended but that's a silly point. A lot of people have experienced nasty things at the hands of Islam and Christianity as well. Is it selfish that they aren't protesting against Scientology? There are a lot of things I don't like and don't agree with ... If I protested all those things my entire life would be spent in protest. That doesn't seem like a nice way to live.
I'm guessing that you're getting this animated about this subject due to some experience with the CoS so please understand I'm not attacking you nor defending Scientology. If you believe strongly in a fight against Scientology, by ALL means fight the good fight.
Quote from: [Cameron] on Fri 15/02/2008 13:31:40
But the thing is about Scientology is that it is their religion that gets people killed. They don't believe in medications, and many people with mental illnesses end up committing suicide because they can't handle life without their medications.
Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in blood transfusions - lots of them die because of this. I don't see anyone wailing about that all over the internet (much)...
To be honest, I don't see the big deal. Have any of you ever
read Dianetics? It's just a self-help book. And it's not bad, either (he basically just steals from Jungian psychology)
Sure, the leader's an asshole, but beyond that I wouldn't believe all the internet fear-mongering.
Darth, try to read up on the story of the town of Clearwater FL if you have the time. Or maybe operation snow white?
The protest aren't necessarily about stopping scientology, but to inform people about it as you'll have to pay plenty before the church actually does..
Quote from: vict0r on Fri 15/02/2008 18:22:02
inform people about it as you'll have to pay plenty before the church actually does..
I'm pretty sure membership is free. It just costs money if you wanna learn humanity's terrible secret
Spoiler
we're all an alien experiment
or become, like, a 'science-bishop'...
There's lots of scientology clubs around, in every country. Are you honestly telling me that they're all devil-worshiping baby-eaters?
Quote from: Emerald on Fri 15/02/2008 18:26:02
Quote from: vict0r on Fri 15/02/2008 18:22:02
inform people about it as you'll have to pay plenty before the church actually does..
I'm pretty sure membership is free. It just costs money if you wanna learn humanity's terrible secret
Did you actually read what I said? In the cult of scientology, you'll have to pay for enlightenment or information.
They aren't devil-worshipping baby eaters, but rather thetan-worshipping baby brainwashers.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/02/2008 17:42:21
I absolutely marvel how people get so heated at these kinds of debates.
I just want to say that I'm not heated. I just asked some questions. You may feel attacked by other people posting but I'm typing very un-emotionally. Just didn't want you to feel attacked by what I wrote.
Quote from: vict0r on Fri 15/02/2008 18:35:03
Did you actually read what I said? In the cult of scientology, you'll have to pay for enlightenment or information.
Costs a shitload of money to go to a private Catholic school to become 'enlightened'.
Hell, it costs 200 bucks an hour to go to a psychiatrist and become 'enlightened'.
Scientology is a self-help club that calls itself a religion. Where's the evil in that? They're just a little bit ahead of themselves.
I bet you could make up all sorts of shit about what modern medicine has done to people. And I'm sure it would be technically true. But that doesn't mean medicine doesn't help people, too.
Quote from: MrColossal on Fri 15/02/2008 18:52:41Just didn't want you to feel attacked by what I wrote.
No worries ... wasn't feeling attacked really.
Quote from: vict0r on Fri 15/02/2008 18:22:02Darth, try to read up on the story of the town of Clearwater FL if you have the time. Or maybe operation snow white?
The protest aren't necessarily about stopping scientology, but to inform people about it as you'll have to pay plenty before the church actually does..
Church does what?
I think (as usual on the AGS forums) that my point isn't getting through.
I do not care about or support Scientology any more or less than I do any other religious group/church/organization (which is to say very little). What "it" has done, is doing, or might do in the future isn't surprising to me and I don't really need to read countless examples of the bad things carried out in it's name to justify people's dislike of it. I don't like it either. For every atrocity committed by the CoS I can find one (or 10) committed by other religions that have been around longer. It's all the same to me ... I really am not sure why this concept is hard to grasp?
It seems like everybody is under the impression the I'm defending Scientology. Which I'm certainly not.
I agree with Mandarb. Scientology rocks!
Quote from: Emerald on Fri 15/02/2008 19:37:39I agree with Mandarb. Scientology rocks!
Man ... I actually laughed out loud at that!
Too funny :)
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/02/2008 19:27:08
Church does what?
Inform it's members. But yeah, I'm not attacking anyone. Just Emeralds trolling that kinda made me annoyed, but meh... It's teh intarwebz!!1
Oh my God, a differing opinion! DIE TROLL!
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/02/2008 19:27:08
It seems like everybody is under the impression the I'm defending Scientology. Which I'm certainly not.
Well, you're only attacking the people that don't like scientology - which boils down to pretty much the same, if you think about it. Just saying.
(also I don't see where you're getting the impression that this is a heated argument or an angry discussion, as I've seen worse discussions about D&D rules...)
Quote from: Emerald on Fri 15/02/2008 12:24:01
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/02/2008 01:47:28
Scientologists starved a woman and had bugs bite her...
Atheists shot up a school (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre) in Colorado. YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK! ALL ATHEISTS MUST DIE FOR THEIR SINS!
Quoteor what purpose would they be propagandizing?
People are like that. Remember all the bullshit propaganda that PS3-fanboys put out about the Xbox 360? They don't personally benefit from that. It's human nature - if someone thinks something is good, and someone else thinks it's bad, those two people will fling all sorts of crap at each other...
Hi Emerald,
I think you need to research the Church of Scientology a little more before you comment any more in this thread. It's fine to have your own opinions about things obviously, but yours are very obviously under researched.
There are very clear known facts about the Church of Scientology which show it to be a very corrupt and dangerous organisation. There is plenty of reading material available on the web, and would be more if the CoS hadn't shut down many of these pages through either threats (both violent and legal threats), hacking, etc.
The fact that Scientology does not allow its "secrets" to be shared publicly, and that you must pay for the privilage of knowing their 'secrets'; that they guard themselves so closely, is in itself a clear indication towards the fact that the upper members of the church certainly understand and condone the corruption within and try to hide it as best they can.
Members who drop out of the church are shunned and often
threatened, by legal means (threatening to sue if they reveal anything they know about the church) but also
violent threats if that person is considered to be a danger to their reputation, such as if it was a high ranking church member.
Members of the church of have family that are not members are encouraged and often forced to cut off their family entirely, particularly if the family members are actively against the church. Children of church members are encouraged in Scientology schools (according to official Scientology guidelines) to spy on other children and tell on them if they misbehave or say bad things about the church. The early stages of indoctrination, both for children born into the church and also for adults who have just joined, are known techniques for brainwashing people, such as in the schools, where they make children repeat simple, hypnotic and repetitive tasks such as following the movement of a finger for a very long time, before being instructed about church guidelines and ideals...
such as spying on your friends and family. This is an extraordinarily abusive way of treating children, as it destroys their ability to create trusting relationships and effectively turns them into brainwashed scientology slaves.
People who speak out against the church are harrassed. Scientologists (again, in line with Official Scientology Guidelines) do such petty things as handing out fliers or putting up posters around that person's home town, filled with what are usually fabrications such as "this person is a whore" "this person has aids" "this person is gay" etc. This is
actually in line with Scientology guidelines and is just something they are obliged to do as church members. They also phone employers and pose as customers complaining about that person, or spread derogatory rumours at their workplace. They use intimidation tactics such as following that person for months, breaking into their houses, repeatedly phoning and then hanging up, or phoning and threatening to kill them. This is not just an occasional occurance that is performed by individual crazy scientologists,
this is instructed in their guidelines.
To quote what L Ron Hubbard himself wrong, "that person must be destroyed at all costs".Scientologists are asked many intimate questions while attached to lie detectors, including details on their sex life, their family, scandals they've been involved in, etc. This information in collected and stored, and
is used against them if they speak out against the church.
L Ron Hubbard's son himself said that he believed his father was insane and that Scientology was a money-grabbing farce. If L Ron Hubbard is insane, is it any wonder that he is so against psychiatry? It could also be quite possibly due to the fact that any psychiatrist or psychologist can see quite clearly the effects of scientology on the minds of it's victims...
Again I stress that all of the above is not just rumour spread by anti-scientologists. This is what L Ron Hubbard himself wrote and instructed other Scientologists to do, and it is frequently carried out to the best of their ability.
Documents were found during a raid on a church that showed plans to kill an ex-member in a particularly cruel way. They had previously harrassed her, broken into her house and held her at gunpoint, constantly called her and hung up or threatened her. They tipped off the FBI to a crime she hadn't committed and she was investigated for months. It all eventually came to light when a Scientology church was raided and documents were found regarding her, with details about how they had framed her, and how
they planned to send a Scientology member, posing as a non-scientologist, to seduce her, become her boyfriend and then spy on her and
play on her suicidal tendencies to encourage her to kill herself. They knew about her suicidal tendencies as it was documented during one of her lie detector tests at the church.
There are also numerous incidents of people who have left Scientology after reporting that they were
ordered to kill someone. One man claims that he was asked to kill his psychologist, who he had confided to about scientology, and then kill himself. Another person was ordered to run over a prominent anti-scientologist activist. Not to mention horrific child abuse such as children being locked in cupboards for days on end on L Ron Hubbards orders. You can try to argue that these cases are just disgruntled ex-scientologists that are lying, but even so, there is evidence to support many of these claims and well as there being a huge amount of them.
Scientology is not a religion, it is a very dangerous and unfortunately fairly established cult. It is not the same as a self-help club, because self help clubs to not encourage abuse, murder, harrassment.
Fortunately for most people, the internet has greatly helped to spread word about scientology, which until then was a greatly guarded secret. This is most likely why they now put such emphasis on the "famous" members of the church, who they believe will likely influence people into joining.
So before anybody tries to suggest that Scientology is harmless, that the occurances of threats and violence are far and few between and performed only by the occasional nutcase: I suggest you do just a little research.
I think after reading the above you will agree that it is certainly not harmless.
Quote from: Radiant on Fri 15/02/2008 23:44:35Well, you're only attacking the people that don't like scientology - which boils down to pretty much the same, if you think about it. Just saying.
Yes, I
am primarily attacking those who are staging these protests because they (Anonymous) are what this thread is about. However I am not
only attacking them. I made several points against Scientology, Christians, and Muslims as well. If it's necessary I can cite several other examples of things I disagree with on other groups of people (not just Anonymous).
I feel I have quite thoroughly (on several occasions) made my [negative] feelings towards Scientology known.
Lastly, I don't see it as "boiling down to pretty much the same" thing at
all. Yes, I am opposed to Scientology. However, I'm not going to go along with this Anonymous group simply because they too oppose Scientology. I don't like what they're doing and I'm not going to pretend I do. How would that make
any sense?
Disagreeing with their methods doesn't mean I agree with Scientology. It just doesn't.
So you disagree with their methods. What should these people (the people who are staging protests outside Scientology buildings) be doing instead?
I cannot understand why you're opposed to protests. Your reasons thus far have been either about the futility of the protests, or the fact that there are worse evils in the world.
Regarding the ineffectiveness: Even if the protests don't bring down the whole organization, which I don't think anyone expects, as I stated earlier in the thread, even if they can stop one person from setting foot in that building and losing their life's savings to a cult it would be worth it, wouldn't it? These things have to start somewhere.
Regarding greater evils: Just because there are more battles to be fought, doesn't mean someone shouldn't be fighting this one. Also, your point about the Crusades may have been relevant to this argument two thousand years ago, but we're talking about a modern religion, and one that is only a religion because they can save money on taxes that way. And the point about 9-11 is just plain wrong. The group of people launching terror attacks around the world does not represent Islam. For each suicide bomber and terrorist there are a million peaceful and kind Muslims. And the comparison of having to pay to be a scientologist to the collection plate in church is apples and oranges as well. You can get a bible for free on any college campus, or cheap in any book store. You can know everything they're about before even setting foot in a church or seeing a collection plate. With scientology, you have to pay thousands of dollars to be audited many times over while you progress through their ranks. They do extensive background checks on your finances once they've established your interests to see just how much they can milk from you. They have even forged documents to help old ladies mortgage their houses in order to extract more money! Before you know what their religion is teaching, you could be out tens of thousands of dollars. Now, I'm not saying that Christianity and Islam are free of guilt in the modern world. No, if this conversation were about them I'd be talking about how harmful they are to the modern world in the name of their invisible deities. But still, the fact that these religions have some real bad mojo doesn't mean that others should get away with their crimes.
As Meowster so excellently stated, there is a long laundry lists of reasons why Scientology needs to be stopped. They are harming their members in ways that are inexcusable. And despite scientology's best efforts, there is more than enough proof out there the demonstrate their danger. The aim of these protests is to help more people become aware of these dangers. You are a strong-headed person, Darth, and I don't fault you for that. I admire your devotion to your opinions and beliefs. I just hope that you'll take some time to see that something has to be done about this fake religion to save the people currently under their control and to save others from falling into it, even if that something starts as a little ripple in the pond.
I'm not really opposed to (or protesting) protests in general. But this "protest" (at least what I've seen of it) came across as juvenile and intentionally inflammatory. It's like they're picking a fight, all the while claiming that they aren't picking a fight. And Anonymous? You want to protest something, fine, man-up and do it publicly and don't hide behind anonymity. To me that's cowardly and removes me from taking it seriously.
I can see your point ... however, once again, I think people simply aren't seeing my point.
I am not a fan of Scientology.
I never said that Scientology should be allowed to get away with anything simply because other religions have in the past.
I never said that Scientology shouldn't be stopped.
I never said there weren't other battles to be fought. In fact I was suggesting there ARE other battles worth being fought.
The Crusades took place in the past in the name of a religion that is still practiced today. The events we're discussing about Scientology were events that took place in the past in the name of a religion that is still practiced today. The number of years is irrelevant to me. The Crusades were 1000 years ago, yes, but die-hard Catholics still don't believe in evolution! So the 1000 years hasn't progressed their thinking too much in my opinion.
My point about 9-11 is not plain wrong. The terrorists that crashed those planes were Muslims and they carried out those attacks in the name of Islam. Whether it's Islam as we [most] would want it to be, or their twisted perversion of it doesn't change the fact they murdered all those people praising Allah all the way. I'm well aware that 99.99% of Muslims are peace loving and don't condone these acts, but it doesn't change the fact that ones who carried out these acts were Muslims.
Anyway...
Would it just be easier for everybody in here if I just typed (all in caps) I THINK SCIENTOLOGY NEEDS TO BE STOPPED!!
Ok, I got you Darth. Boo scientology. Kumbaya. Etc.
I still have to say, I don't think that the crusades example applies because I don't think that the religion today needs to be protested for the wars it sponsored 1000 years ago. Scientology needs to be protested for the crimes that it is still sponsoring today. The relevance of the two issues is incomparable in my mind.
And I don't think the 9-11 example applies, because I don't think that a religion needs to be protested for the actions of a radical group who misunderstand the religion's principles. I do, however, think that Scientology should be protested for the crimes that are sponsored by the Church's leadership and even written into the organizations goals and operational parameters by it's founder. The difference between small fringe group being bad and entire organization being bad is incomparable in my mind.
Again, I know we're on the same side, and I hope you don't take my constant hounding of your points as a personal attack! I'm enjoying the conversation. Thanks to my language level, I don't get a lot of in-depth debate over here in Japan!
Edit: Oh! And happy birthday!
DING! DING!
ProgZ takes out Vince's mouthpiece as he staggers back to the blue corner. "You got 'em on the ropes, Vincey!"
Vince empties a half-full water bottle while ProgZ dabs his forehead with a damp cloth. "I don't know, boss...I just don't know if I can get the message through to the anti-conspiracy crowd!"
"What!?" ProgZ shouts, drawing the attention of the red corner where Tom Cruise, surrounded by his most loyal Level 8 Thetan honor guard, flashes a 10-cent grin at his opponents. "Ya can't throw in the towel, Vincey -- not when you're so close! Now get back in there and fight!"
Vince pops in his mouthpiece and springs from the corner for another round.
I guess it's just a matter of perception...
I wasn't trying to say that Christianity should be stopped today because of the Crusades 1000 years ago. I was using that as an example to point out my disdain for ALL organized religions and it somehow turned into me supporting Scientology. Confusing ... but I sort of expect things like that whenever religion is being debated on here.
I have spoken with a lot of Christians (not just Catholics) who, after I manipulate the conversation a little bit, have said such things as, "we should just nuke the entire middle east" or "the only solution is to kill 'em all". 1000 years ago or not, it seems the idea of a new Crusade isn't too far fetched in this day and age.
As for Islam and its "peace loving" majority ... that peace loving majority still makes women hide their faces and forces them to get the permission of their man to talk to other people. They can't vote. They can't go out in public. They can't think for themselves. That peace loving religion murders a woman that comes back to her home country trying to spark a democratic process. While the crusades were 1000 years ago, Islam still seems to be operating from that time. The religion of Islam is as bad as any other of the major religions in my eyes ... the 9-11 terrorists just throw more garbage on the already steaming heap as far as I'm concerned.
I'm fully aware that in the bullshit PC world we live in that I am not supposed to say those negative things against Islam because everybody will immediately assume it's a racist comment (but ironically just glance over my thoughts on Christianity without a second thought). It's not a race thing, it's a religion thing. Or ... IT'S NOT A RACE THING ... IT'S A DISDAIN FOR ORGANIZED RELIGION. Just to avoid 2 pages of being labeled a racist :)
Oh ... and Vince, thanks for the birthday wishes :) I'm enjoying the chat as well!
Mandarb, glad you see things the way I do... religion never helps... ever. Most wars have a religious cause, and personally, I hate it's existence. Not individual religions, all of them.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sat 16/02/2008 05:54:10
I'm not really opposed to (or protesting) protests in general. But this "protest" (at least what I've seen of it) came across as juvenile and intentionally inflammatory. It's like they're picking a fight, all the while claiming that they aren't picking a fight. And Anonymous? You want to protest something, fine, man-up and do it publicly and don't hide behind anonymity. To me that's cowardly and removes me from taking it seriously.
Darth, while I agree that they did come across as juvenile to me with their original video released on youtube etc., there is a very valid reason for them wearing masks and remaining anonymous. This is because of the risk of Scientologists identifying them and harrassing them. At some of the Anonymous protests, Scientologists took pictures and filmed protesters not wearing masks. It's widely known that Scientologists use harrassment and violence to intimidate people into silence, hence the masks.
Just thought I'd point that out :)
Yeah I knew why they were wearing the masks ...
I just don't agree with it.
At this point they have realized that, legally, there's nothing they can do to bring down the Church of Scientology. So they have resorted to these protests which is really their only option. In this type of "fight", when legal action isn't possible, there will ALWAYS be the threat of violence and harassment. That's human nature. One group is trying to stop another from their way of life ... who wouldn't fight against that?
To cite a couple of examples:
The founding fathers of the United States. They stood up, in public view, and signed their names on a declaration of independence. Knowing full well they were signing, potentially, their own death warrants. They knew the risks but they didn't hide in the shadows. They believed in their cause and were willing to put their lives on the line to achieve their goals.
Look at the civil rights movement of the 1960's. Heroic men like Medgar Evers and Martin Luther King Jr. stood up in FULL view and declared their protests and their visions of right and wrong. Both of them paid the ultimate price and their sacrifices paved the road for those that would follow.
In my opinion that's the way to make your point. Risk it all to prove it to the world. Don't hide behind masks letting others fight the fight for you.
In my opinion it's tantamount to terrorism. Same anonymity, same tactics ...
I can't apologize for my "strong headed" opinions on this matter.
I don't respect it.
I won't get behind it.
No matter my feelings towards Scientology.
Just a quick hit-and-run:
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sat 16/02/2008 20:16:08
In my opinion it's tantamount to terrorism. Same anonymity, same tactics ...
Terrorism is rarely either anonymous or non-violent. Where exactly do you see the same tactics being utilized? I really can't see how these
legal (even if a bit juvenile) protests could be likened to acts of terrorism.
To me it seems CoS is a cult that apparently has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Besides, why should anyone respect an organization that has no respect for them.
Well tube, if CoS didn't have any redeeming qualities (we won't argue the definition here) no one would flock to it. There's a lot of money and status to be made in the Scientology Party, but I would argue that it is more a political party with political aims than a religious group with 'religious' concerns. The bottom line really is that if you want to know more about them then read some independent studies and leaked copies of their doctrine. If you don't then no one will convince you they are anything but another group of nuts, anyway!
Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 16/02/2008 21:08:20
Well tube, if CoS didn't have any redeeming qualities (we won't argue the definition here) no one would flock to it.
Nazism doesn't have any redeeming qualities (yes, I could have chosen my words better here but let's stick to these for now) but Hitler gathered and still gathers quite a following.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 16/02/2008 21:08:20
There's a lot of money and status to be made in the Scientology Party, but I would argue that it is more a political party with political aims than a religious group with 'religious' concerns.
It's a cult with political goals. The religion aspect might or might not play a part in the grand scheme of things, but their goals are pretty clear.
I still maintain that there's no reason for any of us to respect an organization that does not respect us.
I don't disagree!
Meh, I don't like participating in religious discussions.
Everyone is too stubborn.
I'll just say that I'm Catholic and normal.