Any americans watch the debate last night?

Pesty · Fri 01/10/2004 21:00:47

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 01/10/2004 20:01:20

The electoral college can make the popular vote completely pointless.Ã,Â It's like a safety valve ... if those in power don't agree with the popular vote, just use the electoral college to put who you want in office.

Colorado has an amendment on the ballot to get rid of the electoral college, thank goodness. I hate how they word things, though. Last time a lot of Colorado accidentally voted against some gay rights amendment because of wording when they thought they were voting for it. Hopefully that won't happen this year...

shbaz · Fri 01/10/2004 21:12:11

A lot of states are considering turning the electoral college into a representation of the states popular vote, since it isn't actually written that there must be people in the college. With a system like that, you could have a population with a 2:5 vote ratio and 7 electoral college votes, 2 for one party and 5 for the other.

Darth, your "safety valve" symbology is right on the mark. The founding fathers realized that the nation was a bunch of uneducated farmers for the most part and they wanted to be sure that no mass prejudice would affect the vote. It's mixing aristocracy in with the democratic-republic concept. In the modern day, people are much more informed and it's a poor system. At least, I'd like to believe that being more informed meant people would vote responsibly..

Quote from: DGMacphee on Fri 01/10/2004 16:05:56
Kinda like this video: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/bush-bs.html

Sure, I don't know what the hell Bush is talking about in the clip, but I bet he sure as hell means it.

No, he was stalling with the first thing that came to his head while he tried to figure out what the hell "tribal sovereignity" meant. I live in the Cherokee Indian capitol, so I realize that it is the right of the Native American tribes to make and enforce their own laws as a sovereign nation within a nation... just in case anyone was wondering. That's how they can have casinos and bingo halls on their own land even though local laws prohibit it. The laws of eminent domain (the right of the state to take property with just compensation for the greater good of local society) do not apply to Native Americans, since it would be like annexing parts of Mexico, legally. It's funny how around here you'll find certain roads that take the oddest routes or sharply curve around a certain square plot of land.. because the Native American tribes learned their lesson about giving up land.

Pumaman · Fri 01/10/2004 21:20:12

Would anyone care to explain what exactly this "electoral college" is?

TerranRich · Fri 01/10/2004 21:29:12

http://www.fec.gov/pages/ecworks.htm

I agree with Darth and shbaz about not needing the EC anymore. It's ridiculous. I never saw the point of it until now.

edmundito · Fri 01/10/2004 21:36:08

Quote from: Pumaman on Fri 01/10/2004 21:20:12
Would anyone care to explain what exactly this "electoral college" is?

It makes your vote not count, of course. Then again, I can't vote in this country, and I'm too far away to vote for home's elections. So um... what do I care?

I still watched the presidential debate, though.... I figured people would be talking about it, or something. But now, I don't want to talk about it....!

Pumaman · Fri 01/10/2004 21:38:16

Ah ok, so basically each state has a block vote, which gets cast depending on whichever candidate gets the most votes in that state?

I can see the benefits of that for local representation in parliament, but for electing a president it seems rather bizarre.

shbaz · Fri 01/10/2004 21:41:25

Quote from: Pumaman on Fri 01/10/2004 21:20:12
Would anyone care to explain what exactly this "electoral college" is?

Here is another link with a lot more detail and history behind the system, plus present controversy.

Anarcho · Fri 01/10/2004 21:50:25

From an online encyclopedia:

"The U.S. Electoral College is the electoral college which chooses the President and Vice President of the United States at the conclusion of each Presidential election. The Electoral College was established by Article Two, Section One of the U.S. Constitution, and meets every four years with electors from each state. The electoral process was modified in 1804 with the ratification of the 12th Amendment. The 23rd Amendment to the Constitution also modified the College, allowing electors from the District of Columbia to cast votes for the election of the president."

Basically what this means is, that the President of the US isn't elected by the popular vote. Ã,Â Each state and the District of Columbia is given a certain number of votes, depending upon the state's population. Ã,Â When a candidate wins the popular vote in a certain state, it is given that state's electoral votes. Ã,Â Whoever has the most electoral votes, wins the presidency. Ã,Â This means that candidates don't campaign in every state, but campaign strategically in a small number of states. Ã,Â For example, states like California, Illinois and New York are democratic strongholds, and for that reason, Kerry doesn't spend a lot of time campaigning there. Ã,Â He knows he's going to get those electoral votes. Ã,Â It's the same with Bush in states like Texas or most of the Midwest and South. Ã,Â In this particular election, there are very few states that contain sizeable numbers of undecided voters. So there are very few (relatively) electoral votes up for grabs. Ã,Â That's why the two candidates are spending most of their time in states like Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, Florida and Pennsylvania.

The existence of the Electoral College resulted in Vice President Al Gore winning the popular vote in 2000, but losing the electoral vote. Ã,Â Thus, he â€œlostâ€ the election. Ã,Â The story is more involved than that, with a great deal of corruption specifically in states like Florida, and a disturbing decision by the Supreme Court, but that's another discussion topic.

The Electoral College also allows for some fucking weird election outcomes. Ã,Â It's possible to have a tie in the Electoral College. Ã,Â It could theoretically happen in this election if the planets align correctly. Ã,Â If that happens, the vote for the president goes to the House of Representativesâ€¦in which case Bush would win (considering the likely outcome of this year's congressional races). Ã,Â But here's where it gets interesting. Ã,Â Electoral Votes also elect the Vice President, and if the Vice Presidential race ends in a tie, then the vote goes to the Senate. Ã,Â Now it's possible this year for the Democrats to take back the Senate, and if they did, then under this scenario John Edwards could be elected Vice President. Ã,Â Then there would be a Bush-Edwards ticket. Ã,Â That might seem almost acceptable for people in other countries that don't have a two-party system, but in America, it would be unimaginable. Ã,Â

Anyway, hopefully that answers your question.

MrColossal · Fri 01/10/2004 23:45:04

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 01/10/2004 20:01:20

Let me explain my (uneducated) take on why I find my vote to be useless.

So, you find your vote to be useless, Ok... Do you have a preference on who should be president?

If so then take the frickin 10 minutes it takes to fill out a ballot and send it in... Pretend you're writing a post on AGS forums, it'll probably take the same amount of time... And if it isn't counted it isn't counted but at least you tried and it's not like you lost years off your life doing it.

On the debates: I enjoyed them. Bush repeated the same 3 things over and over again. Anyone count how many times he said "wrong war, wrong time etc etc..." or how many times he said that Kerry changes his positions? Or how many times he said that it's hardwork?

ARGH ARGH he makes me so angry. And oh his jokes were so funny! "Jeez, I'm not even going to get into how my opponent plans to pay for all these promises!" Yea thanks a lot ass, maybe he'll not give tax cuts out like it's halloween candy, and maybe if he didn't have the largest deficit in the US's history he could actually do something with this country..

My favourite part of the debate was when Bush said "the enemy attacked us and we responded" or something and Kerry said "Yes the enemy attacked us... Osama Bin Laden attacked us... Not Iraq." I was like ZING!!

But of course, John Kerry is a flip flopper.... yea...

Evil · Fri 01/10/2004 23:59:40

In reguards to No Child Left Behind. I'm still in high-school, and it hit us badly. All of the kids that do well sit around while the problem kids who wanna drop out get help and take up our time. Heck, it even goes all the way to gym class. I've seen kids fail out BECAUSE of NCLB. Its causing a bunch of problems and screwing with the good kids.

shbaz · Sat 02/10/2004 00:02:11

Flip flopping.. I saw an interesting political cartoon on this pasted on my government class door.

It went something like this.

Irresponsible hard-headed idiot voter (drawing of toothless hillbilly): I refuse to change my mind because of new information or current events because I know that I'm right and god is on my side.

Responsible voter (drawing of a man in a formal suit): I carefully analyze current events and new information and make my decision based on such, even if I had a different opinion in the past.

Strong, stable leader (characature of Bush): I refuse to change my mind because of new information or current events because I know that I'm right and god is on my side.

Flip-Flopping gutless Liberal (characature of Kerry): I carefully analyze current events and new information and make my decisions based on such, even if I had a different opinion in the past.

juncmodule · Sat 02/10/2004 00:26:10

lol, great shbaz.

Did ANYONE else notice when Bush said "September 10th" and not "11th"?

I guess Bush's Bushisms are all taboo now, because somehow it's okay to have an idiot for a leader.

Personally, I don't get that argument. If he can't out-debate someone then should he really be representing our country? Can you just imagine the things he says to other world leaders!?

Going into the debate my vote was for Kerry. Not to elect Kerry, but to get Bush out. I must say that Kerry performed very well and I no longer feel the guilt of giving my vote away to someone I don't like.

I must say though, I didn't think Bush did as bad as everyone thinks. I think he did just what he needed to do. The repetition, stubbornness, and cockiness is exactly what makes him so "lovable". His bad-ass-we-blew-stuff-up attitude is what will get him votes. That and his ignorance. He appeals to many Americans on a very personal levelÃ,Â

I thought the ultimate ZING! was when he quoted George Bush Sr.'s book, stating that "there is no exit strategy for a war in Iraq" (this was given as part of the reason he pulled troops out of Iraq in the first gulf war). He used Bush's OWN FATHERS words to nail him, it was great.

I'm pretty excited about the next debate. It really got my "politics" rolling. I checked out the other issues and elections on my ballot and I'm feeling all inspired.

Darth: Bush sincerely and truly frightens me. I really do believe that his intentions are to establish a dictatorship. Yep, that's right, I'm that much of a paranoid nutbag, but that's what I believe (because I know that I'm right and god is on my side). Please vote. If Bush wins again on just an electoral vote and not a popular vote...I will be the first to sign up with a revolutionary group and attempt to restore freedom to my nation. Your vote is important, the votes of all of Gore's supporters still prove today that our president has not been elected by the people. There is no end to the importance of this fact. Join the revolution and vote for your president, even if he doesn't win.

later,
-junc

edmundito · Sat 02/10/2004 00:33:23

Enough politics. Let's put this all in the context of adventure games (maybe someone will get it?):

View 1: I stick to the traditional way of adventure games. I love the stories in adventure games, and they should have puzzles and characters where the player could die without too much warning. I stick to the traditional values and will not changed them, because thatś the way the gods Williams, Schafer, and Gilbert, meant to create them.

View 2: I once thought that adventure games were awesome and I loved the puzzles and the way you could die without too much warning, but then I realized that, based on current events, different steps have to be taken that is for the betterment of both the genre and the player's satisfaction. My opponent view and I very much love the story line behind adventure games, but we have different ideas on how they should be put together in these current times.

TerranRich · Sat 02/10/2004 01:26:34

All I have to say is...

huh? What was your point, netmonkey?

Blade · Sat 02/10/2004 02:09:51

If someone wants to start real revolution after Bush's hipothetical winning, then I heard there is an organization in Belgrad which specialty is organizing revolution in other countries

DGMacphee · Sat 02/10/2004 05:01:29

Quote from: shbazjinkens on Fri 01/10/2004 21:12:11
Quote from: DGMacphee on Fri 01/10/2004 16:05:56
Kinda like this video: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/bush-bs.html

Sure, I don't know what the hell Bush is talking about in the clip, but I bet he sure as hell means it.

No, he was stalling with the first thing that came to his head while he tried to figure out what the hell "tribal sovereignity" meant.

Even if he was stalling, he sure sounds like he believes in what he says. Notice the satisfied look he gives at the end of the first part, even though he explains nothing really.

Anarcho · Sat 02/10/2004 06:18:18

You can BELIEVE that the best way to put out a fire is to dance an irish jig while wearing a coconut bra, but that doesn't make it true.

Bush can believe he's right, and I have no doubt that he does in fact believe that he's right. Zealots and fanatics also believe they're right. Bush shares a rather disturbing form of unwavering righteousness with the very same terrorists he denounces. Bush is a zealot, he's a radical, and he's surrounded by ideologues. He scares the living shit out of me.

DragonRose · Sat 02/10/2004 07:10:32

Quote from: Anarcho on Sat 02/10/2004 06:18:18
You can BELIEVE that the best way to put out a fire is to dance an irish jig while wearing a coconut bra, but that doesn't make it true.

Dang! That's why the fire in the kitchen still hasn't gone out.

* DragonRose switches to a Scottish Jig.

OK, on to the serious part of the post.

I must admit that Bush scares the living daylights out of me.Ã,Â I wasn't able to catch the debate, because I had a night class, but everything I've ever heard about Bush makes me think he's the wrong man for the job.Ã,Â Please note that I get most of my information from the CBC and CNN and I'm writing this at two in the morning.Ã,Â That'll give you a twisted viewpoint any day.

I'm not going to say anything about actually invading Iraq other than this: "STUPID ILLEGAL WAR WRONG WRONG WRONG NO BLOOD FOR OIL GET OUT!!!!!"Ã,Â What I am going to talk about is his government's relationship to other countries.

Canada and France have always been big supporters of the USÃ,Â (Except for that whole War of 1812 thing).Ã,Â Canada is the most important trading partner with the US.Ã,Â France has always fought on the same side as the US in any war they both participated.Ã,Â When we don't join in on their illegal and irresponsible invasion (ooh, alliteration!) we are branded as "the other side" and "friends of the terrorists."

Even before the World Trade Center attacks, Bush was ignorant of foreign affairs.Ã,Â A Canadian comedian, Rick Mercer, met with him at a press mobbing (I have NO idea what they're really called, but one of those things when an important person is leaving somewhere and the press swoops in).Ã,Â He asked Bush's opinion on Canadian Prime Minister Jean Poutine's policies.Ã,Â Bush said they were great, and that he would fully support Mr. Poutine.

The Canadian Prime Minister at the time was Jean Cretien.Ã,Â Poutine is a tasty Quebec heart-attack-on-a-plate of French Fries, gravy and cheese curd.Ã,Â Maybe he was getting confused with Russian president Vladamir Putin (sp?), but STILL!

Ironically enough, he didn't end up supporting Mr. Cretien, called him an enemy of democracy, and in general was a jerk.

I don't know all that much about Kerry, just that he doesn't support the Invasion in Iraq. And is that really enough to base four years of presidency on?

Darth Mandarb · Sat 02/10/2004 07:12:07

Quote from: Anarcho on Sat 02/10/2004 06:18:18Bush can believe he's right, and I have no doubt that he does in fact believe that he's right.Ã,Â Zealots and fanatics also believe they're right.Ã,Â Bush shares a rather disturbing form of unwavering righteousness with the very same terrorists he denounces.Ã,Â Bush is a zealot, he's a radical, and he's surrounded by ideologues.Ã,Â He scares the living shit out of me.

I've often found it wierd that he [Bush] wants to hunt down these terrorist to put a stop to their evil and hatred.

Yet the way he speaks about it (and goes about it) seems evil and full of hatred ...

Wanting to defend America(ns) is nobel ... but dramaticizing it with powerful rhetoric just seems ... juvenile??

I wish Bush would realize that while you can't negotiate with terrorists, the way he's going about dealing with them, while somewhat effective in the now, is only creating new/more terrorists in the long run and will just perpetuate this 'War on Terror'.

Why not hunt down the reason the terrorists hate us (America) in the first place?

junc - I, too, liked that Kerry used Bush Sr. against Jr..Ã,Â It was an elegant way to throw a barb in there (no pun intended) without resorting to useless insults.

I don't trust politicians:

[paraphrasing]
"I'm a politician ... which means; when I'm not kissing babies hands, I'm stealing the candy from them." - Hunt for Red October

Having said that, Kerry impressed me in the debates.Ã,Â It's been a long time since I've been impressed with a presidential candidate, or any politician for that matter.

Do I trust him?Ã,Â No.

Do I think he could do a better job than Bush?Ã,Â Yes.

Anarcho · Sat 02/10/2004 07:33:08

The thing is, up to four years ago, Bush didn't know jack shit about foreign affairs, or even national government.Ã,Â I was listening to NPR the other day, or maybe reading www.rotten.com/library (greatest library EVER) and they were talking about how when Bush began to run for office, Condoleeza and others put him through an intensive foreign policy "college"...starting from scratch to teach him the basics and then moving forward.Ã,Â We're not talking review...we're talking learning from scratch.Ã,Â This guy didn't know a thing!Ã,Â For as much as Kerry doesn't impress me, and I bet he would do plenty of things I disagree with, he's been in the Senate for 20 years.Ã,Â When Bush was snorting coke off hookers' red leather heels during his "down and out" period, Kerry was already immersed in foreign policy while in the Congress.

But hey, he's so plain spoken, and he believes what he says...I guess he'll protect us...from...the...TERRORISTS!!!!!

:

g'night folks,

Logan