Any americans watch the debate last night?

[shbaz]

I especially liked the second debate, where the look of desperation on his face was consistently shown because the camera angles often showed them both at once. You could see a look of laughter in Kerry's eyes when Bush talked.

[panda]

Liberal means lots of different things around the world. In Europe and other places, the "Liberal" party is closer to the American Libertarian party then say, the American Democract party. Its all relitive.

Liberal has been a dirty word for a long time...at least since Regan I imagine. I dont think its a very effective insult, but its been stigmatized to mean "out of touch". I dont really consider myself a liberal per say, (Im an american democract, and on the economic scale, closer to the left then I am the right, but I think Im more of a lefto-centrist), but I dont really connsider it an insult. John Kerry is a liberal. So? Bush is a neo-con. So?

I dont get it. My countries political system is messed up.

[evenwolf]

Yeah, a lot of Kerry's effort in the debates has been spent trying not to appear to be a liberal, and yet not disassociate himself from his friendly liberal friends.


And eric, it's not that Bush isn't capable of debating without name-calling.Ã,  Sadly, name-calling can be quite effective to many people watching.Ã,  Huh?Ã,  What... this Kerry feller is a liberal?!Ã,  Hell, we can't put another one a them in office!Ã,  Look what Lincoln done!

[poop743]

Sorry, but lincoln was a republican conservative. He wasnt a liberal

[TerranRich]

Hah. I tend to disagree, my fecally-named friend. Here are quotes from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Considering the dangers and provocations of the time, Lincoln was quite liberal in his treatment of political opponents and the opposition press.

The Republicans disagreed among themselves, however, on many matters regarding the conduct and purposes of the war. Two main factions arose: the “Radicals” and the “Conservatives.” Lincoln himself inclined in spirit toward the Conservatives, but he had friends among the Radicals as well, and he strove to maintain his leadership over both.

When Conservatives protested to him against the implication that the war must go on to free the slaves, even after reunion had been won, he explained...

So, you see, he was either considered neither liberal nor conservative, or more toward the liberal side (protested by conservatives). Are they teaching you the wrong things again in school?

[Panda]

Sorry, but lincoln was a republican conservative. He wasnt a liberal

The Idea of letting all the Slaves go, and get this, rights for EVERYBODY was not a conservative idea. Conservativism, by nature, is for the status-quo, whereas Liberals press for change.

You tell me. Who's the Liberal here? I'll give you a hint. He was a lawyer who's name starts with Abe.

[shbaz]

Lincoln didn't care whether the slaves were free or not, which he said repeatedly. He was more concerned with the preservation of the union.

http://www.absofacts2.com/abrahamlincoln/data/lincolnquotesslavery.htm

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.

...

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.

[Las Naranjas]

I don't think that the terms Liberal and Conservative, whose application is sketchy to begin with, can really be applied to federal American politics in the 1860s.

[MrColossal]

Looks like people are doing it just fine Dick... Now if they're right or not... That's a different story...

[shbaz]

I don't think that the terms Liberal and Conservative, whose application is sketchy to begin with, can really be applied to federal American politics in the 1860s.

They can if you know and consider the mass attitude of society at the time. I wouldn't try to categorize Lincoln though, because I also think he was a mixture of both.

[Snarky]

The Eighteen-Hundreds is exactly the right time to talk about the labels liberal and conservative, because that's when the two movements originally arose. That's when the liberals became the movement for greater civil rights (against slavery, for women's suffrage), secularism (in defense of the separation of church and state), workers' rights (the right to unionize, the twelve-hour workday), and tolerance of minorities.

The conservative movement has, for its entire history, resisted and opposed these causes.

The main difference between liberals in the nineteenth century and American liberals today is in economic policy. Back then, the liberals stood for free trade and minimum government restrictions on the economy.

[Las Naranjas]

If you mean in a vaguer sense "Progressive" and a small c conservative you can apply, but the terms are a more specific political science term, especially when relating 20th and 21st century politics to the 1800s.

Moreover, the 1860's in a good time to highlight a lack of defined conservative in the world, since the old conservative were long dead, and the post 1871 conservatives of the english speaking work were yet to arise. It's most important to realise that in this period, a liberal, whether of the British school [whose liberalism was rooted mainly in trade, and thus becoming anti socialist in the 20th century would be considered conservative] and continental liberalism, was identified as someone who supported the development of parliaments and other, sometimes only quasi, democratic institutions. The liberals that dominated Britain were characterised by their support for the new enterprise classes and weakening of the, by know very faint, feudal systems, and the european liberals who had taken the continent by storm in 1848 were pushing for greater parliamentary powers.

Now, in America, where the powers of an elected assembly and president were taken to be self evident, and there existed no feudal systems, it's hard to apply these terms.

A progressive stance that an American may feel would reflect efforts of liberal coutnerparts accross the atlantic may be the support of industry over agrarianism, but it would be foolish to equate agrarianism with feudalism when the former holds private property to be it's underlying virtue.

if by liberal, you merely mean progressive, arguments can be made. But to use the term liberal for all progressives would be like using "molecule" for all small building blocks of matter, whether they are molecules, particles, atoms or sub atomic. It's muddy thinking.

The point that really needs to be made is that the terms, in any context, are irrelevant since they're falwed enough in the present, trying to illustrate them in terms of the past simply makes them more spohistical and pointless.

[poop743]

this thread is dead

[Haddas]

yes, and it was resting peacefully before you opened the grave. thanks for reminding us it's dead.

[TerranRich]

Idiot.

[rtf]

Debate Thread- Ressurection