Bit of a rant here, I'm kind of shocked and angry.
So, I've been having and internal religious struggle. Last year, I wasn't praying very much, and my parents got divorced shortly thereafter. Well, I've been struggling to bring God back into my life, but the religious zealots these days are just disgusting.
Here's a demonstration of a discussion I brought up in a thread on a Myspace Christian Group. The thread was by someone else, talking about how Christians are brainwashed. My reply consisted of this:
QuoteTo be fair, a lot of Christians I see just don't think for themselves. They believe that what other people preach to be the absolute truth, they never ask questions.
Take for example, this:
Me: "Is evolution possible?"
Guy: "No, it's absolutely impossible, infact they've disproven it."
Me: "But, isn't God capable of doing that?"
Guy: "Well, maybe, but he didn't."
Me: "Are you denying the power of your own God?"
Guy: "No, only sinners like you do that."
Problem is, people read too deeply into things, and never look past simple words. They think that "God had to do something x way, because the Bible infers something that is connected that way."
God wants you to ask questions, he wants you to ask why, he wants to help you find solutions and explain things. So do it. He loves us so much that He allows us to think for ourselves, so do so.
Well, I felt pretty good. I gave a very intelligent, levelheaded answer, pointing out the wonders of thinking for yourself.
The replies consisted of the following (and my answers).
Them: "No, that's impossible. They've proven scientifically that animals can not evolve from one another!"
Me: "Really, then why are there different species of millions of animals?"
Them: "Well, um, that's part of God's plan."
Me: "But, couldn't God use Evolution?"
Them: "God is all powerful, but evolution is impossible."
Me: "Did you just deny the power of your own God? He can do anything, according to the Bible."
Them: "Aah. No, I did NOT say that, only a sinner like you does that."
Are they really that thoughtless? I pondered.
The thread degraded into everything bad. I got called a disgusting Sinner, that I was wrong and going to Hell, and that only the Bible was truth.
Seriously. They're absolutely brainwashed. All I wanted to do was tell them to think for themselves, and they didn't even want to do that.
There's something very wrong with the world today.
For whatever it's worth, I learned way back in the 80s not to take advice, get into arguments, or seek the approval of people on the the other side of my computer screen (the fine folks of this outstanding forum excluded, of course).
So a message board is filled with a bunch of opinionated fools. I'm shocked. Faith is a deeply personal thing and it's doesn't jibe well with the interwebs, which is appallingly impersonal.
Whatever is wrong with the world is too big of a thing for any one person to fix, much less debate over tcp/ip. Look to answers within yourself (which it seems like you're doing anyway) because, in the end, in your own head is where you're going to spend your entire life. Talk about things like this face to face with real people you know in real life. You'll encounter a lot less trolls that way (usually).
In all faiths, you'll find people who retreated into faith to shield themselves from an uncertain world. But you'll also find people who entered into their faith for a reason other than some sort of security blanket for grownups. I wasn't raised with any sort of faith whatsoever, yet after 35 years on earth, I find myself quite unexpectedly to be a spiritual person. Didn't see that coming! Ignore the zealots and focus on your own journey (if you'll pardon me going kind of touchy-feely there). Whatever it is you're looking for, no one else can find for you. If they say they can, they've probably got a price tag attached to it.
Short version, ignore the idiots and don't try to change them. You're likely wasting your time and probably going to get an ulcer for your troubles. Keep asking questions of yourself and in time you'll find answers you can live with.
And for the record, I believe that while evolution is a far from perfect theory, it's the best we've got and it makes a lot more sense than a literal reading of what is otherwise a pretty nifty allegorical creation story which has always struck me as more concerned with why the world is so screwed up than trying to explain exactly how the world physically came into existence. It makes more sense to me to read it that way than to use it a a scientific textbook that teaches the world is 6000 years old.
Anyhoo, that's my two cents on the subject.
- Ponch
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." I wouldn't however just say "Christians" however. Those who want to be brainwashed would be brainwashed on something, Christianity is simply their soap of choice. If it wasn't that, it would be something. As a Christian who likes to try to think for myself, I agree that God gave us freewill, to explore this wonderful universe that He/She gave us.But I think in a way, we are all brainwashed, we all have some assumptions that we hold dear, to a degree greater then the evidence warrants. In fact in some cases, there can be no evidence, I once asked a bunch of scientests where the energy/matter in the universe came from, if it can not be created? They had no answer, and said there was no scientific way to HAVE an answer. Which just shows there can be very physical things beyond Science, not just the metaphysical.
Religious zealots rather freak me out, especially when they use their energies for destruction and death, things I do not believe are part of what God wants us to do. To me, we are here to help our fellow men and woman, to love our neighbors as ourselves. Anything else is just dogma and additions.
Slightly off topic here, but I've been meaning to say this all season:
lo_res_man, that is an awesome avatar!
Also, good post.
You really have to approach religion carefully, and by carefully I don't mean as a staunch skeptic but as a reasonable person. Some religions really are out there just to distort any useful meaning religion has as a result of one person's attempt to capitalize on gullibility (Joseph Smith and the Mormons and Hubbard and the scientologists fall into this category), while a host of others have great value when looked at objectively. My brother falls pretty squarely in the zealot category, unfortunately, and it's quite impossible for me to have any kind of theological discussion with him without it devolving into how his interpretations of certain passages in the Bible are the only correct ones. I am particularly at odds with him on the loving God/angry God issue that plays out between the Old and New Testament because it's my personal belief that a higher being who sees us as his children would never act out of fury or malice against us.
The person you were speaking to seems to be one of those people who can't reasonably discuss an issue so they just throw a label at you. People like that aren't worth your time in any situation. I happen to believe that evolution/creationism are not mutually exclusive concepts, since if God created man to think and adapt, would He not also give animals the ability to adapt to their environment to better their odds?
I think what you're seeing is nothing new, in that there are always people who will clutch to an idea in a way that makes them most comfortable and refuse to see any alternative even if it is not a harmful one.
Wow, that is super, you guys. Possibly the most mature thing I've read all day.
It's frustrating, though, because I'm surrounded by the same kind of people at church.
I happen to believe in a universal, reinterpretable God, I feel more at peace with that than actual religion itself.
I find most religious people are atleast partially brainwashed, but thats not the problem. The problem IMO with most, is their blind faith. The fact that no matter how much evidence one was to provide disproving that their religion was incorrect about somthing, they will often insist you are wrong and refuse to listen to reason.
I have no problem with other people being of whatever religion they choose to be. What i dont like is when they preach and attempt to convert others. Especially others who dont want to be converted.
In countries like Australia, we dont have a problem with this kind of thing at the moment (tho religion is making a comeback unfortunatly) however goto Pakistan or India and certian ethnic or religious groups like the Kalash are persecuted and refused jobs based soley on their beliefs.
This is a mojor problem in the world thats been around for thousands of years, and unfortunatly it will not be solved any time soon.
I think there are wonderful aspects of most established "classic" religions. In contrast to modern movements and programs (those kinds of movements that pop up in USA on a regular basis, sell a couple of million books and get featured in Operah, who claims it's the new shite) which are just about gaining power and money, religions like christianity and islam etc focus on your role in a community, and how to be good to others. Heck, most of New Age is just about spiritual self actualization, how to maximize and optimize yourself. It's never about sacrificing anything (I believe a lot in sacrificing), only about gaining more.
As lifestyles and philosophies, the big religions can teach us a lot.
But why oh why can't they just settle for being lifestyles and philosophies, why must they explain the evolution, cosmos and everything?
Religion loses ground when their followers must ignore and refute the most obvious and simple evidence science presents. Instead of being relaxed and saying "sure, evolution is fine, but we want to talk about how you lead your life here and now" they shout "blasphemy" whenever reality doesn't correspond point to point with the scriptures.
That's when the desperation kicks in, and people hide their heads in the sand. Their universe collapse because they can't give and take.
I'm a Christian and I don't care whether evolution is fake or not. I just don't. That's not at all what Christianity is about.
That's all I'm going to say, I don't wish to get into a religious debate again.
Everyone's brainwashed by something. It's all about human nature - a need to follow something, to fit in. You could be brainwashed by the Bible, Fox News, Eminem, your best friends, your parents - whoever, or whatever you pay the most attention to.
There's no such thing as someone who is a totally independent thinker. Your every means of expression is filtered through languages and codes which are invented by other people.
When I say 'bird', you immediately think of a small flying animal with wings, feathers and a beak, because that's what you've been 'brainwashed' to think.
It's the same with Christians. If you go through your whole life hearing about how evolution is a sham (just like you've gone through your whole life knowing what a bird is) hearing the word 'evolution' will cause a knee-jerk reaction of thinking 'untrue'.
Telling these people 'maybe evolution is true' would be like trying to convince you that a bird is actually a type of fruit, and not a flying creature.
Quote from: Mr. Psychopath on Sat 22/03/2008 03:44:35There's something very wrong with the world today.
People used to be burned and guillotined by zealots who thought only they had the truth, so there have been some improvements (in large areas of the western world at least).
Hm, I know the kind of people you mean. The closed-minded judges who can't be reasoned with. They really make me mad.
As I recall, there was something in the Bible about warning your brother when he listens to unsound ideas, but it's a whole other matter to say someone's going to hell.
Let me quote Jesus on this: "Judge not lest ye be judged."
All you can do is say what's on your mind, if they listen or not is their problem.
EDIT:
QuoteWhen I say 'bird', you immediately think of a small flying animal with wings, feathers and a beak, because that's what you've been 'brainwashed' to think.
Isn't a small flying animal with wings a bird? It's common sense to assume, since it saves time. Unless I have an emufarm, I'll assume you're talking about the small flying animals with a beak.
It's only brainwashing if I refuse to believe there are birds that can't fly.
Any religion that opposes science commits pretty much a suicide today. And suicide is a sin!
Why do catholic church (and/or many of its stupid followers) deny theory of evolution I don't know. Why couldn't it be also part of God's plan? Why must Old Testament be correct? Are we believing in God's love and supreme plan, or an old book?
Wiki says about Book of Genesis...
QuoteScholars see the book as the product of anonymous authors and editors working between the 10th and 5th centuries BC.
So, who says there can't be no mistake?
I don't think one should rate religion by IQ of its followers or myths it's based on. I think that Holy Bible is pretty outdated and not a book to live by, especially since It's written by humans and is actually a collection of old tales.
As it's said often, we don't and can't have no real idea how God looks like, what He wants or what He is. This is what I believe. And this sounds like something more solid to base your faith onto. Not dusty book of jews' tales or intimidating priest promising hell and eternal punishment if you're not penitent enough.
But for me, in religion section, I'd write "undecided".
Free thinking is an enemy to almost any religion. Being brainwashed, at least at some level, is a must to be a believer. People knew this long time ago. Islam? Inquisition? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition) Electric cattle prods? ;)
I dont have a problem with alot of the values that some religions try to teach, but really, its about time they all get with the times and find new ways to teach love and respect for your fellow man.
I give people respect untill they show me they dont deserve it, i believe everyone deserves a chance, end even a second chance and that people should be free to do what they want, as lond as they arent hurting other people.
Why?
Well not because some priest tells me im going to hell if im dont try to be a "good guy", but because of the way i was raised and because of the lessons ive learnt in life from doing stupid shit.
These days, especially in first world countries, i dont see the need for religion in its current form.
Quote from: InCreator on Sat 22/03/2008 13:50:11
Why do catholic church (and/or many of its stupid followers) deny theory of evolution I don't know. Why couldn't it be also part of God's plan?
Because some people, who believe Darwin, say that humans evolved from monkeys, while the Bible thinks that people were created independantly from animals.
Quote from: Emerald on Sat 22/03/2008 13:20:24
Everyone's brainwashed by something. It's all about human nature - a need to follow something, to fit in. You could be brainwashed by the Bible, Fox News, Eminem, your best friends, your parents - whoever, or whatever you pay the most attention to.
That's right, but after you've managed to get brainwashed by yourself, you start feeling an urge to create a new religion/way of life/ cheese and gain followers.
Quote from: Fee on Sat 22/03/2008 14:04:51
I give people respect untill they show me they dont deserve it, i believe everyone deserves a chance, end even a second chance and that people should be free to do what they want, as lond as they arent hurting other people.
Why?
Well not because some priest tells me I'm going to hell if I'm dont try to be a "good guy", but because of the way i was raised and because of the lessons ive learnt in life from doing stupid shit.
A bit off topic:
Lesson No 1:
If you don't act like a "good guy", people hit you.
Lesson No 2:Psychological Egoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism)
People have nothing good in them actually, they just follow their basic incstincs, searching for pleasure and evading danger.
QuoteQuote from: InCreator on Sat 22/03/2008 13:50:11
Why do catholic church (and/or many of its stupid followers) deny theory of evolution I don't know. Why couldn't it be also part of God's plan?
Because Darwin says that humans evolved from monkeys, while the Bible thinks that people were created independantly from animals.
Darwin does not say that.
The monkeys! THE MONKEYS! EEK EEK EEK EEK!
Yes. Sorry. I have nothing constructive to add to this discussion. Please forgive me.
According to Genesis, God made man from clay. Yet, biblethumpers seem to take that as a metaphor. Why must the six-day-limit-on-creation and all that being taken literally then?
Quote from: Babar on Sat 22/03/2008 15:14:35The monkeys! THE MONKEYS! EEK EEK EEK EEK!
It fits your avatar ;)
Monkeys or clay, what a though choice! Or was it bone (for women)? :D
This is stupid.
I think we all know there can be but one sensible position in this debate.
(http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20060822.gif) (http://smbc-comics.com/)
(Don't have anything constructive to add, either. Sorry)
Quote from: InCreator on Sat 22/03/2008 13:50:11
Why do catholic church (and/or many of its stupid followers) deny theory of evolution I don't know.
AHEM.
The Catholic Church sees no conflict between doctrine and evolution (in itself):
Quote
In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.
- (John Paul II, Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution)
Sometimes, however, people try to justify philosophical ideas using the theory of evolution, such as the evolution of human souls or eugenics. As long as Catholics understand that many of those ideas are not held by the Church and are not what evolution is really about, Charlie Brown, they're good.
Quote from: Babar on Sat 22/03/2008 15:14:35
The monkeys! THE MONKEYS! EEK EEK EEK EEK!
MONKEYS IS CUTE LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!11 O^_^O~ <- LOOK IS MONKY!!1
Quote from: Lionmonkey on Sat 22/03/2008 14:44:00
People have nothing good in them actually, they just follow their basic incstincs, searching for pleasure and evading danger.
That's a very general statement. A rainbow is just sunlight refracting through droplets of water (basically), doesn't mean it's not pretty or meaningful...
But... Evolution IS possible... it stopped being a theory a long time ago.
I don't see why it has to be one or the other...
I don't believe in God but even if I did I would still have to look at the proof and concede that evolution is what brought us here today.
Whether or not that evolution was God's doing is another debate altogether.
In terms of your religion Mr. P... I would suggest that you look at the evidence and ask yourself what YOU believe. If you believe in God then your are more than welcome to that belief... but there is nothing that says you HAVE to follow any particular set of organised religious rules. Believe the bits you actually do believe and not the bits you feel you must believe in order to be a true Christian.
Any particular ready-made religion is a kind of brainwash because it doesn't give you the chance to mix and match your own beliefs. It's all-or-nothing faith that punishes and/or alienates those who don't buy the whole package.
QuoteIf you believe in God then your are more than welcome to that belief... but there is nothing that says you HAVE to follow any particular set of organised religious rules. Believe the bits you actually do believe and not the bits you feel you must believe in order to be a true Christian.
I agree.
I don't remember exact spelling, but in a bible somewhere was something that loosely translated as "don't seek me in the churches, you won't find me there" or something like that. The point was that it is not a church where one should look for God. I believe this goes for other catholic stuff too, you don't have to sing or drink Jesus' blood or anything else to believe, because belief comes from within, not from acting something or someone "on stage". And not thinking as some amount of flock, because people are often simply stupid. So some Christians bashing you at forum or something isn't something to lose faith to.
I mean, baggy pants won't make me a hip-hop fan and cross above my bed or on my grave won't make me a Christian.
But if all of above doesn't help you, act like a good Christian and turn the other cheek. Both suffering and human sacrifice (whoa, indeed... ew) is what's Christianity was BUILT onto.
Quote from: Lionmonkey on Sat 22/03/2008 14:44:00
Quote from: Fee on Sat 22/03/2008 14:04:51
I give people respect untill they show me they dont deserve it, i believe everyone deserves a chance, end even a second chance and that people should be free to do what they want, as lond as they arent hurting other people.
Why?
Well not because some priest tells me I'm going to hell if I'm dont try to be a "good guy", but because of the way i was raised and because of the lessons ive learnt in life from doing stupid shit.
A bit off topic:
Lesson No 1:
If you don't act like a "good guy", people hit you.
Lesson No 2:Psychological Egoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism)
People have nothing good in them actually, they just follow their basic incstincs, searching for pleasure and evading danger.
Exactly my point.
You dont need some stupid religion to tell you to be good. There are consequences in doing the wrong thing in life, not after death.
Maybe, maybe not. We really don't know either way about the afterlife. But the consequences in this life are mostly artificial.In a democracy if I could get enough people to agree with me, I could make murder legal, I could outlaw chocolate, and make the rivers run with pudding! And in an absolute monarchy, if I was the ruler, all I would have to do was say so. I am not saying you can't be a good person without religion, but it helps to have an excuse. Religion can be that excuse, or it can be an excuse to commit atrocities that should sicken any human being alive. On the other hand, it has given people the courage to do great good.
But on your own, your like on a floating island in space, nothing underneath, no foundation except a vague concept of human decency. If that is enough, fine good for you. But I don't think I am strong willed enough to create my own good like that.
Quote from: lo_res_man on Sun 23/03/2008 01:49:57
and make the rivers run with pudding!
Really? That'd be great!
Quote from: lo_res_man on Sun 23/03/2008 01:49:57
I am not saying you can't be a good person without religion, but it helps to have an excuse. [...] But I don't think I am strong willed enough to create my own good like that.
I find that hard to believe (no pun intended). You're saying you wouldn't be able to know right from wrong if you weren't religious?
Quote from: Twin Moon on Sun 23/03/2008 02:07:39
Really? That'd be great!
Not for the fish ;) Besides,swimming in pudding would get a bit sticky.
Quote from: Twin Moon on Sun 23/03/2008 02:07:39
I find that hard to believe (no pun intended). You're saying you wouldn't be able to know right from wrong if you weren't religious?
No, I thought I made that clear. I just think it helps to have something you believe to be solid, rather then something that is admittedly arbitrary. So is religion, but the difference is you
believe it to be solid.
Quote from: lo_res_man on Sun 23/03/2008 01:49:57
In a democracy if I could get enough people to agree with me, I could make murder legal...
Since that would produce a huge amont of rotten, half-eaten by rats and cannibals smelly corpses lying everywhere, most people wouldn't like it. Maybe that's why murdering a person is considered a bad thing to do.
Actually, you can't, lo-res. At least not in most democratic states. Since certain international laws (e.g. human rights) are considered to be "above" state legislation (just as federal law is "above" the laws of individual sub-states), it doesn't matter what the law says - human rights say murder is a no-no, and if your country's legislation disagrees: Tough luck, it's still illegal.
Unless, of course, by "enough" you mean about 75% of the population of the states who signed said treaties. ;)
First of all I don't want to insult anyone here,
I was born in a christian country with christian culture surrounding me in more aspects of life that I could not be aware of.
I agree with some things The Church tells and not with other things but that's not what I want to say, it just goes to show a bit of my background.
When humans are filmed, alone, for a extended period of time, one thing you stop seeing in them is God (together with their traces of civilization) , I mean whatever God you believe or I believe.
Human beings, when alone and not knowing/interested if they are being watched become what they really are without civilization/religion: animals.
Primary things like food,water,shelter,cold,heat become important.
The need to act sociable is less and less important with time and phisically humans begin to change. Even the look in their eyes change. The way they move when not watched by others changes, it becomes natural, human.
All this I'm writing has many glitches and you maybe don't agree but the truth is:
WE INVENTED GOD
there was no God before man begun to think and relate together, to live together and work together and have families.
There was no God as we know it before we learned how to write.
god started as a light in the sky, god became feared when somebody told he could control his wrath, god became a legend when he inspired warriors and even a myth when he died to save humankind.
Ok, now you can stone me ;D
No stones from me, although the format of your reply does seem like a sermon for a new religion.
It's clearly got the pathos, at least.
Quote from: Akatosh on Sun 23/03/2008 15:43:46
Actually, you can't, lo-res. At least not in most democratic states. Since certain international laws (e.g. human rights) are considered to be "above" state legislation (just as federal law is "above" the laws of individual sub-states), it doesn't matter what the law says - human rights say murder is a no-no, and if your country's legislation disagrees: Tough luck, it's still illegal.
Yeah, but if your daddy was president 9 years before and you're now president, you can get away with it, even if it is illegal... ;)
Some US states have been murdering criminals for a long time. Us brits gave it up over 50 years ago...
Quote from: Akatosh on Sun 23/03/2008 15:43:46
Actually, you can't, lo-res. At least not in most democratic states. Since certain international laws (e.g. human rights) are considered to be "above" state legislation (just as federal law is "above" the laws of individual sub-states), it doesn't matter what the law says - human rights say murder is a no-no, and if your country's legislation disagrees: Tough luck, it's still illegal.
Unless, of course, by "enough" you mean about 75% of the population of the states who signed said treaties. ;)
If that would be enough, that would be enough.
You may find some of Fr. George Coyne's, former director of the Vatican Observatory, presentatins to be interesting.
http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/VOFTalks.html (http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/VOFTalks.html)
To be honest, when it comes to accepting scientific reality, the Catholic Church is a darn better than most other religious bodies.
Here is an example.
My local priest yesterday (Easter Sunday) decided to speak out about Chimeras - using Cow embryonic structure with Human DNA to make more fertilised eggs with which to work with - but instead of saying "It is wrong!" - which would have been uncharacterful of him - he talked about how MPs should have the right to vote according to their concience on it. I suspect he is against it - as are many people - but I am for it, but I fully agree with him - ethical grounds should allow MPs to vote properly, without a whip.
Do you get what I'm saying here?
- Huw
Quote from: Huw "I'm scary" Dawson on Mon 24/03/2008 11:57:04
To be honest, when it comes to accepting scientific reality, the Catholic Church is a darn better than most other religious bodies.
Here is an example.
My local priest yesterday (Easter Sunday) decided to speak out about Chimeras - using Cow embryonic structure with Human DNA to make more fertilised eggs with which to work with - but instead of saying "It is wrong!" - which would have been uncharacterful of him - he talked about how MPs should have the right to vote according to their concience on it. I suspect he is against it - as are many people - but I am for it, but I fully agree with him - ethical grounds should allow MPs to vote properly, without a whip.
Do you get what I'm saying here?
- Huw
It's not the CC, it's the individuals. Some people start cursing, shooting and burning houses when someone does something, which is against their traditions. Some calmly explain their arguments. Some do something else. I think, every religion has got these kinds of individuals.
I didn't read the whole discussion, but I glanced. Two things. First, forbidden topics: sex, religion, and politics. Those roads don't have a good ending.
Second, from a scientific point of view, I am not saying anything about evolution, but the big bang theory is a bunch of crap. Thermodynamically impossible. If that's what happened, only God could make it so.
Yes a little off topic, but the origin of the planets and species on this planet seemed tied together. For some reason, certain scientists want to kill God and zealots want to kill science. They should embrace each other for a truly remarkable understanding of the universe.
Of course, zealots in general piss me off. Like republicans and democrats who are so "sided" they can't even think straight.
BOOOOBS
Good, I covered all three forbidden topics. Now I will be put into PC prison. See you in 3-5 yrs.
Quote from: yukonhorror on Mon 24/03/2008 13:38:20
...the big bang theory is a bunch of crap. Thermodynamically impossible. If that's what happened, only God could make it so.
[citation needed]
Quote from: Stupot on Mon 24/03/2008 13:59:27
Quote from: yukonhorror on Mon 24/03/2008 13:38:20
...the big bang theory is a bunch of crap. Thermodynamically impossible. If that's what happened, only God could make it so.
[citation needed]
I don't know the original journal article for the second law of thermodynamics, sorry.
Quote from: Stupot on Mon 24/03/2008 13:59:27
[citation needed]
It's been years since I took a physics class, but as I recall it was something to the effect that thermodynamics prohibits the notion of the Big Crunch (remember that old theory?) because the law of thermodynamics (hereafter "T Law" cause I'm a lazy bastard and that's a long word) prohibits matter so diffuse from being pulled together from across the entire expanse of a flat universe (and, yes, it's flat!) -- something to do with the general weakness of gravity, an energy exchange of some sort, heat flowing at a set rate from a warm body to a cold body, etc etc. As I said, it's been a long time.
But that assumes that before the Big Bang that there was a Big Crunch (which is a theory more or less in the dust bin now). If there was only one creation event, i.e. that the universe erupted from a single point and that this event happened only once in the (pre?)history of the universe, then T Law can get bent, as it (like most of the laws that govern the universe) is dependent on spatial parameters which the early universe was largely lacking (or at best were very poorly defined). Plus there may (or may not have) been a near-equal amount of anti-particles at the time of the Big Bang, which changes the math on everything. There was an abundance of energy at that moment, obviously, and the universe hasn't seen its like since, so modeling that moment and the crucial moments that followed are very difficult as the universe we inhabit nowadays is a pale shadow of the universe at creation (as far as sheer potentiality goes).
In a nutshell, it depends on which universe model you subscribe to: the cyclical universe (Big Bang/Big Crunch over and over) or the non-cyclical universe. The latter allows for a Big Bang if you assume that the single dot of everything had always been there and always been super compressed. Then, "for no adequately explored reason" there is a "horrible space kablooie" and here we all are.
At least, that's what I remember from the bits of class I didn't sleep through. Any of you may have been more alert students than I was, so feel free to correct me if I misremembered something. (Which is very, very likely).
- Ponch
p.s. As I said, it's been years. It was so long ago, that people still thought the universe was spherical or curved, not flat. So everything the professor said might be out the window now.
p.p.s (Fixed some spelling errors. Still early in the morning, I guess.)
Hello you bunch of agnostics,
Ponch: What with the recent theory that our universe has a skeleton?
Could it be still flat?
If the Big Bang theory is crap it really doesn't matter because I learned it was at school, and now my step-son is learning it (12yrs-old) and my son will probably learn it that way!
That's how it works, it's like the Holy Book, four Gospels were chosen but there were many more writen and they aren't acepted. We believe in what we are told, period.
I believe that the Quantum Leaps theory destroyed everything we believed as human race!
It doesn't matter anymore, we all be dead when the world finds out why we are here, and the answer will be very, very, simple. Just don't know what will be.
Stone me, stone me more... ;D
Quote from: miguel on Mon 24/03/2008 20:18:03
Hello you bunch of agnostics,
Ponch: What with the recent theory that our universe has a skeleton?
Could it be still flat?
If the Big Bang theory is crap it really doesn't matter because I learned it was at school, and now my step-son is learning it (12yrs-old) and my son will probably learn it that way!
That's how it works, it's like the Holy Book, four Gospels were chosen but there were many more writen and they aren't acepted. We believe in what we are told, period.
I believe that the Quantum Leaps theory destroyed everything we believed as human race!
It doesn't matter anymore, we all be dead when the world finds out why we are here, and the answer will be very, very, simple. Just don't know what will be.
Stone me, stone me more... ;D
42
Quote from: miguel on Mon 24/03/2008 20:18:03
Ponch: What with the recent theory that our universe has a skeleton? .. Could it be still flat?
It was just discovered that our universe is flat and not horseshoe shaped (as Einstein believed, I think) or spherical as many models suggested.
It's still infinite in every direction, but space/time itself is flat. That is to say, parallel lines always remain parallel out into infinity. If the universe were horseshoe shaped, the lines would approach each other, but never intersect (just forming an asymptote). If the universe were spherical, then eventually the lines would intersect, and by definition no longer be parallel as far as space/time is concerned. (Though they would still appear parallel to us, as we're in the same state of existence as the lines are).
Sorry if no one else wanted to read that. I've loved this sort of stuff since I was a kid and they promised me that I would be living on the moon by now.
On an appropriately religious note, got to hide a bunch of Easter eggs for my girlfriend's nieces and nephew this weekend. They ran around like a laughing goofs looking for the eggs, getting grass stains all over their Sunday best. Made me feel like a kid again to be a part of that.
If this world is all there is, then moments like that make it all worthwhile.
- Ponch
Quote from: yukonhorror on Mon 24/03/2008 13:38:20
Second, from a scientific point of view, I am not saying anything about evolution, but the big bang theory is a bunch of crap. Thermodynamically impossible. If that's what happened, only God could make it so.
If only people would stop caring HOW the world started and deal more on how the world IS doing and how it will NOT end sooner than it should (if this applies), everyone would be happier.
This crap about evolution, creation and all that shit is SO boring, SO tiresome and SO back in the past, which makes it really, but really, but really irrelavent to anything really.
God/religion/nature gives a set of guidance. What if one get's cancelled? Does it mean that people will stop believe, or thinking this way. I don't believe in a set God but I do fancy most of the teaching in Orthodox Church. So... I do tend to abide a bit... Am I a sinner? OH YES! Will I stop thinking the "orthodox" way if in the end there is no God? Nope, sorry...
Such a useless debate... poof...
Last time I said something like the above was about dear x-planet Pluto I think, and I hurt dear AGSers feelings. So... no, this discussion is not bad, or the thread, and I posted... But this hugely escallated issue with creationist vs Darwinists vs whateverinst IS.
Yeah, ultimate reality and beliefs about such matter remarkably little to day-to-day life. Just because people stop fearing God, that doesn't mean society descends into anarchy and mayhem (look at tranquil Scandinavia, where a remarkably small percentage of the population is religious). And just because the average man on the street refuses to believe in some fairly basic science, that doesn't mean planes fall from the sky or the electricity goes out (more than usual, that is).
As for the second law, it's essentially an observation about statistical probability (just consider Maxwell's demon). It holds true because there's a vast number of particles, and an even vaster number of individual events (collisions), involved in any macroscopic process, so the chance of the average outcome diverging significantly from the expected value is infinitesimal. It does not apply on a quantum scale, or to individual events... like the Big Bang. (Perhaps. I don't have the physics to say for sure.)
Most people believe what they want to be true. It's as simple as that. The mind is very powerful in that respect.
Religious people are just deeply afraid of being alone, so they want to "know" there's somebody there who looks out for them.
And here's the controversial statement in my post: all religions are based on sun-worshiping.
Quote from: KhrisMUC on Wed 26/03/2008 09:01:16
...all religions are based on sun-worshiping.
Absolutely bang-on.
Of course our ancestors didn't have telescopes and science and the kind of knowledge we have today. It's quite understandable that they saw the Sun as this big golden eye watching over them, providing them with heat, light, helping their food to grow. The Sun looked after them much like you would expect a decent god would. Something to be respected, feared, worshipped.
That's why our ancestors had so many gods, one for thunder, one for corn, I imagine, Love, War, you name it. Back before we had the knowledge to explain these things. Now that we have some of this knowledge (although I would say we still have a lot to learn), the idea of a God or gods is, to me, anachronistic and pointless...
... but that's just me.
I always find it beautifully ironic how much all the different religions have in common.
For example, did you know that Catholics, Hindus and Buddhists all use prayer beads with exactly 108 beads? I mean coincidences like that don't just happen - it's like a big worldwide game of 'Chinese whispers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers)' was played about 2,000 years ago, and since then everyone's been arguing about what the exact original message was.
Then again, I don't believe religion has anything to do with the violence in the world. It's just an excuse to kill another person, like having different coloured skin, or a different accent... People will say anything to justify a good crusade or two.
Quote from: Emerald on Fri 28/03/2008 20:40:09
I always find it beautifully ironic how much all the different religions have in common.
For example, did you know that Catholics, Hindus and Buddhists all use prayer beads with exactly 108 beads? I mean coincidences like that don't just happen - it's like a big worldwide game of 'Chinese whispers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers)' was played about 2,000 years ago, and since then everyone's been arguing about what the exact original message was.
Then again, I don't believe religion has anything to do with the violence in the world. It's just an excuse to kill another person, like having different coloured skin, or a different accent... People will say anything to justify a good crusade or two.
Isn't 108 the total of the "numbers" in Lost (tv show)???
4 8 15 16 23 42...
12... 27... 43... 66... 108
Huh. A new religion is born...
Quote from: Emerald on Sat 29/03/2008 00:13:52
4 8 15 16 23 42...
12... 27... 43... 66... 108
Huh. A new religion is born...
Yeh, this is quite interesting... (if a little off topic)...
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/108 (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/108)
108 is also the number of pence my nearest garage is currently charging for petrol... it's all a big conspiracy I tell thee!!!
Quote from: Emerald on Sat 29/03/2008 00:13:52
4 8 15 16 23 42...
12... 27... 43... 66... 108
Huh. A new religion is born...
:D Considering Dharma has roots in Buddism I'm guessing that was an element of how they came up with the numbers.
69, everytime...
Quote from: miguel on Sat 29/03/2008 22:14:51
69, everytime...
I still say 42. . .
and thanks for covering up your avatar.