Ok. Three little stories:
1. I got the bill from PowerGen (the electricity company). I never bothered to tell them my name, as I have just move and will move in a little while again, so the bill was for a New Customer. I take the bill and my debit card along to NatWest, where I have an account. I give both of these to the clerc who scans my card and gives it to me again. Then I get a small paper, sign the wrong name, or rather a kind of different signature and return the paper. And I'm done. I've paid 73 GBP. My concern. The clerk, didn't notice the differnt signature, didn't keep the card to check for the signature, had no name on the bill to check that indeed it was me. So I thought, all I have to do is steal a card and start paying bills like that. No one will notice. And not only bills. The same thing happens to every petrol station. Even in Tescos. And if you can't remember your PIN you can sign for it.
2. I wanted to subscribe to a magazine. So I called to an 0800 (free phone), gave them my accounts details (account number and sort code), and I debited my account. Just like that. So anyone with a bank statement can do that. Even if the bank statement is not his. And let me tell you that here in the building I live, the letter are left in the entrance, thus I can take any letter I want, and since the bank statements don't come exactly every month (on the 5th), no one is going to know it's missing.
3. I was to Virgin Megastore, in Tothenam Court Road, and wanted to buy a Bass. It costs 400 GBP. I give them my card and after a while I'm experiecning a weird problem that I have to verify the transaction. This is done apparently because I'm not spending that much money normaly so it seems kind of weird to the bank. Fair enough. Well after a while in the telephone the clerk ask me my password! I tell him that I want to speak myself to the telephone and tell them the password myself, since it is a password and I don't want to give it to anyone. He refuses! So in the end, I tell him the first and the third letter of the password, which is enough for the bank. And afterwards I went to Natwest and changed the pasword to another one.
All these have striken me as weird. I know that in Greece, you can't set up direct debit unless you go to the bank yourself. For every transaction you must have your identity card with you, so they can check if it is you.
I was wondering two things. First of all, Am I being irrational? Is this too much? The second. If not, how do these things work in other countries, Japan, Australia, USA, Germany, etc... And anyway, your thoughts, please?
Nikolas
I can see a flaw with the second point. If you steal someone elses information and have a magazine or whatever delivered to your address, the person beind debited is probably going to see that and it can be traced back to you.
They all sound remarkably similar to experiences I've had when dealing with financial institutions, aside from the utility bill. I'd have to sign up for Power & Gas before I ever received them so they'd, of course, have my name and address.
There is an horrible plague of arbitrary security running rampant. I've had to provide 2 forms of picture ID (which I don't normally even have), a thumb-print, and parents contact information in order to start a bank account before, yet I've approved transactions with little evidence that I was who I said I was. I seldom give ID for large transactions and they go through okay. I had a $620 US transaction once where all I did was give a credit card number/ expiration /name over the phone. The bank let that go through just fine, however the next day, I pumped $11 US in petrol only to have the transaction declined. My account was locked down and I had to contact the bank security personnel. I thought I might've reached a grand total of some sort, but they said it was because I had 4 different petrol fuel-ups in a week at different locations. (It wouldn't have anything to do with driving 84 miles a day would it?)
To all three of them, there can be traces back to yourself. But I'm sure that if somebody tries to find a way to stealing money, it sounds rather easy to do... Especially the 1st point. I mean I could have any Natwest card. It wouldn't do any difference. And something I forgot to mention is that it was the first time that I was in that branch. They had never seen me before.
Actually I did file a complaint and the manager will look into it. But wtf, this is happening everywhere all the time...
Anyone with half a brain cancels their card when they lose it. Anyone with part of a brain at all can spot a £700 expense they didn't make.
Presumably Powergen know your address, too, so that would be traceable too. One thing that bothers me with chip & pin is:
a) How do you know that its a genuine pin device they give you to type your number in and not a card duplicator?
b) When you sign for things now, no-one checks the signature anymore (e.g. They have Chip&PINs in Canada and France but its a different system so incompatible, so you have to sign)
c) Banks have secured themselves but not their customers. Really online banking should use Secure tokens with one-time one-minute passwords and cards should have photos on them
Quote from: SSH on Mon 24/10/2005 14:26:20
Presumably Powergen know your address, too, so that would be traceable too.
I think you're right. I never thought of that. But still, I'm willing to bet that I can take money out with my wifes card (different name and surname), without her knowing. Really. I'm willing to bet on it.
And the fact remains, that it seems soooo easy to take, little money, like 10-50 GBP, or $ or whatever. No one will even bother to check if 10 quid are missing. I certainly don't. And the thing that bothers me most is that the goverment knows about it.
There are adds in the newpapers and in the tely saying, protect your personal information. Why would they spend money to make such a commercial? Because they know that it's easy to steal! And this btw (a little bit off topic), reminds me of the add about protecting your home from fire and to check every week the fire alarm. In th Uk, it is illegal to have a house without a fire alarm. Why is that? Because apparently houses here are easy to burn?
Once more, I have to say that all these mentioned above (in this post only), are not facts. But I have a feeling that it's true.
It seems that it's easier to try to protect someone about a problem, than cure the problem itself...
Which seems the case with the banks...
@SSH: They know my address but not my name. As I said I'm a New Customer. I don't think that the bank, after paying the bill, keeps refference of the address the bill was sent to. Again, I'm not sure.
Excuse the whole "I'm not sure" attidute. I just don't want to create any misunderstandings but surely I find some things weird...
Yes, but the balance sheet with read an expense to "Powergen Co." (or something to that effect) from the account, they check which customer this relates to, and have your address.
Houses everywhere are easy to burn.. You know, wood, material, paper, curtains etc? I don't want all my furniture to be made out of stone.
And its not really all that easy to take little money... How would you take it? If you stole their card chances are it would be cancelled, plus you'd need to know the pin to just withdraw the money anyway.
The 1991 Smoke Detectors Act, requires that all new houses that have been built since 1992 must, by law, have a smoke detector installed. The minimum requirement being one smoke alarm on each level of the building.
Older houses are not covered by the legislation, however, your house insurance may require that you have smoke detectors and not pay out if you don't. Not to mention the possibility of being prosecuted for negligence in the event of a fire where someone is hurt.
Banks have sophisticated analysis programs that detect potentially fraudulent transactions, which is why they sometimes ask for extra checks from retailers. Retailers sometimes just ignore these requests, though...
QuoteI'm willing to bet that I can take money out with my wifes card (different name and surname), without her knowing. Really. I'm willing to bet on it.
I used to do that with my mum's card all the time. It really depends on the person, and how obsessive they are about tracking their finances - some people wouldn't notice if hundreds where taken out, others would be all over £5.
QuoteIf you stole their card chances are it would be cancelled, plus you'd need to know the pin to just withdraw the money anyway
But if you were quick enough you could go to a supermarket, claim you've forgotten your PIN (this would definately work
in the UK at the moment, don't know about elsewhere, or the future), buy a few groceries and get cashback with it. Now assuming the clerk doesn't check the signature too closely (and they never do), you should be fine.
That said IF anyone actually bothered to check signatures, I personally would feel better signing for stuff, than just typing in my PIN - it just seems more secure.
Chip and PIN reduced card fraud by 80% when introduced in France. The jury's still out here. I think the main reason it's better is social rather than technological: the security check is AUTOMATIC and therefore cannot be skipped by a till operator in a rush and also there is no feeling bad about suggesting someone is a criminal by saying "THat doesn't look the same": the blame is on the computer and so the till operator feels less like an accuser (and less like someone holding up the queue).
Quote from: SSH on Mon 24/10/2005 14:26:20
Really online banking should use Secure tokens with one-time one-minute passwords and cards should have photos on them
When I was living in Belgium the on line banking account came with a little calculator thing that I used to generate a password - the web page gave me a number, I typed it into the calculator thing, and it told me what the password was.
I live in the US, and this kind of theft runs RAMPANT here, although the penalties for doing it are fairly high. It is trackable though, and also, if you have your card stolen, most banks will recommpensate you for the money as long as you report it to the police. I experienced this first hand. My purse was stolen a few months ago. It was stolen at about 3 in the morning. I found out at about 9, and reported it to the police. From the time that it was stolen, until the time I reported it, the person spent 300 dollars of my money. The money that he spent was my rent money for that month. He used it at gas stations that did not require a pin number and at McDonalds, who did not require him to sign anything or show ID. Now, luckily, my bank was very understanding and reimbursed me for the money, and I was able to pay my rent.
The man was caught the next day. When I realized the card was stolen, after speaking with the police, I immediately called the bank and reported it stolen. When the man tried to use the card the next day, he was apprehended. He is currenly in jail, still awaiting sentencing and will most likely spend quite a bit of time in prison. He had stolen several other cards and used them as well.
I don't know about others, but I keep track of the purchases I make. I check my bank statement every few days online, and if there is something on there that I did not make, I report it right away. Maybe some people are rich enough that they don't have to do that, but not me! I knew exactly which puchases were the thief's and not mine.
I was lucky in my situation. Others are not so lucky. People all over the world lose thousands of dollars to criminals like this everyday. It's a very sad thing. Many people don't know what to do when they are robbed, and they wait too long to report things.
I personally think that there should be more requirements when using a charge card or a checkbook. You should ALWAYS have to show ID for one thing. Some cities in the US have that law, but many don't... including mine. When purchasing over the phone or online, there should be a series of questions that need to be answered before being able to make the purchased.
The problem about some people is that they get a bit too paranoid on occasions. I live in the US too, on long island, but every weekend I work with my parents going to parts of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut. We sell handmade jewlery at craft shows, and alot of the time people charge us with credit cards. Now, they purchase a two-stone earing in Montauk. My family lives in New Hyde Park, so the money goes to us in NHP. However, the person sees they're charge for a pair of earings in NHP, thinks "Oh no, bad stuff!" and reports it. Most of the time we have to call them up and tell them we live in New Hyde Park, and that's why the charge goes there (not because of credit card theft or anything) so they cancel their report. It doesn't happen too much anymore, since now we make it a point to tell them we live on long island in NHP, not wherever we are at the craft show.
Now, of course, this would all be avoided if they just read the business card, "We work out of our home in New Hyde Park, New York", but there are so many commercials on TV about credit card theft that when they see something like this the first thing that comes to their mind is that.
I'm not sure how relevant that is, but it seemed like it at the moment.
Regarding the first issue you were talking about... http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/
There's a fairly small online DVD merchant; http://www.loaded247.com/ who had a two £7.99 DVD's for £14.
I bought two of these DVD's and the site changed both their prices to £7. They sent off the first one but not the second, I'ver ordered stuff from these guys before, they do this. Somwetimes it takes a few weeks, sometimes a few months, I wasn't worried.
Here's the thing, after they'd shipped the first DVD and charged my account for £7, I didn't have any money left. I was cleared out (I wonder why my parents keep telling me I need a job)
They tried to send the second DVD but my card number was denied, so the order was cancelled.
Meaning that I've unwillingly cheated this company out of 99p. I guess I should feel guilty, but knowing that I don't deserve it just makes watching that copy of Osmosis Jones that much sweeter.
Credit card fraud is very easy indeed to perpetrate -- as you say, you only need someone's card number to spend money from their account.
Things will get better in future -- from March 2006 you won't be able to sign with your credit card any more, the PIN will be compulsory (in the UK at least). And online merchants are gradually introducing systems like Verified By Visa to reduce online card fraud.
But there are still plenty of places like porn sites and pay-at-pump petrol stations where all you need is the card number, no questions asked. However in these situations the retailer is liable when the card is used fraudulently so eventually you'd hope they will all start requiring more ID.
But if you really want to cheat the banks out of money, this might have been worth a shot:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/21/phantoms_and_rogues/
Quote from: Pumaman on Mon 24/10/2005 19:39:06
But there are still plenty of places like porn sites and pay-at-pump petrol stations where all you need is the card number, no questions asked.
Hah! So you admit it, you dirty old man! You could only know this if you yourself indulge in the filthy habit of:
Spoiler
filling a car with petrol
There are cameras at every filling station I've ever been to with an automated credit card system not requiring pins. To get away with this relatively small amount of extortion you'd need to use fake plates and a disguise every time, and you'd risk felony charges.
I wouldn't say the risk is worth it, nor would most people, so it's a relatively benign security flaw. Besides, when a card is lost you'd be an idiot not to cancel it ASAP. You're only liable for $50 of unauthorized transactions, no matter how high, in the US. and according to that article, in Britain too.
You know, anyone would be really stupid not to cancel their debit/credit card, ASAP.
Of course, there is a way to catch you if you do something like that. My point is though that the banks don't seem to give a shit about all of this. And I would've expected this from som petrol statio clerk, but not from a bank clerk. And of course if I was to do something like that I would chose to do my "job" from an ATM machine, and all I had to do is figure out the PIN number. Plain and simple, I wouldn't risk my ass in going to a bank myself.
The fact still remains that the way they treat people and their finances in the banks is plain wrong.
And everything is being done over the telephone. And of course if I subscribe to a magazine they will eventually get to me, but what the heck. I can do it, but won't because they'll find a way to get to me? Does this sound right? The only reason I'm not doing it is because they will find out who I am? Other wise nothing else prevents me? This sounds bizzare the least...
Well yeah, the risk of getting caugh it often the deterrent. Using at ATM machine isn't all that safe either, you're still on camera.
Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 25/10/2005 10:08:33
I can do it, but won't because they'll find a way to get to me? Does this sound right? The only reason I'm not doing it is because they will find out who I am? Other wise nothing else prevents me? This sounds bizzare the least...
I don't understand. What more reason do you need?
You know, there are old ladies wandering the streets clutching handbags which I hear are filled with personal effects. Perhaps you could try a spot of mugging.
Or carjacking. I believe that people wantonly walk around with their carkeys! All you need to do is render them unconcious, take the keys and drive away in the car.
Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 24/10/2005 13:15:11
So I thought, all I have to do is steal a card and start paying bills like that...
Why so complicated? Here in Germany you can have it much easier...
Two years ago my boss sent me to the bank to fetch money for the companies Christmas party. All he gave me was a payout form in which he put account number, sum and his signature. That's it.
I drove to the bank, showed the form, the bank clerk compared my boss' signature with a deposited one, and then she led me to her colleague. Again a short look at the form, but only to read the sum. Jackpot! Before I was handed out 3500 Euro in cash, she even had asked me, if I prefer small or big notes (and people say Germany is a desert in things like customers service Ã, ::)). No one asked for my ID till then...and neither did anybody ever after. Merry Christmas, Boss!
Little fun fact: The company I work for is active in data security and banking service.
So all you need (assumed it wasn't a personal fault of the two bankers ) is the account number and a quite similar signature of the account's owner, and it's not a big problem to fake a signature if you have enough time (Confess! We all did at least once at school! ......ok, YOU did!.....I'm a little angel Ã, ;D).
Quote from: shbaz on Tue 25/10/2005 09:55:08
There are cameras at every filling station I've ever been to with an automated credit card system not requiring pins. To get away with this relatively small amount of extortion you'd need to use fake plates and a disguise every time, and you'd risk felony charges.
I wouldn't say the risk is worth it, nor would most people, so it's a relatively benign security flaw. Besides, when a card is lost you'd be an idiot not to cancel it ASAP. You're only liable for $50 of unauthorized transactions, no matter how high, in the US. and according to that article, in Britain too.
Actually, many many gas stations in the US do not have cameras at the pump. The person that stole my card used it at three different gas stations, where there were not cameras at the pump, AND they did not have to use a pin. They only had cameras inside the store. As I said though, I cancelled the card as soon as I knew it was taken. Since it was taken at about 3am, and I was asleep at the time, I didn't know until about 8:30 the next morning. Also, maybe it is just my particular bank, but I was not liable for ANY of the unauthorized transactions. My bank recompensated me for all of it, including overdraft charges that occured. I was actually more upset about some of the personal items that were in my purse at the time it was taken. Those I can never get back.
Quote from: SteveMcCrea on Tue 25/10/2005 15:31:09
I don't understand. What more reason do you need?
You know, there are old ladies wandering the streets clutching handbags which I hear are filled with personal effects. Perhaps you could try a spot of mugging.
Or carjacking. I believe that people wantonly walk around with their carkeys! All you need to do is render them unconcious, take the keys and drive away in the car.
If it's only that, then I think that the best thing to do to prevent me from forgetting my PIN number, is writting it down to the card! ;D
So the only only only reason is that we'll be busted and not that somethings are "protected"? That's what I mean, I would expect some things to be a little more protected.
For example. My house here in the Uk, has no real lock. When you get out you turn the key 90 degrees. Just that! In my house in Greece, I had a security door, with two locks in both of which I had to turn the key 4 times! But I never insured my Greek house, where I'm seriously thinking of doing it for this one, although the only thing that's worth something is my PC and my headphones. And they say that breaking-in-house has gone up! Well of course. Any burglair from Greece will feel like it's paradise here. I would really feel safer if I could lock 3-4 times my door, on the way out. Now, I don't feel protected.
And my bike was stolen. Worth 25 quid, but I used it every day. Why? I didn't lock it well enough. I'm a fool. Plain and simple. The lady with the purse is a fool (you know hat I mean). A guy with a card does not have a choice!
Something like 3-4 locks on a door is nonsense.
If soneone really wants to break into you're house, you'll do it. One of my friend's bikes was stolen, and his house was broken into--The bike was worth $300-$400. He's got 3 locks on each door and a security system wired to every door window or crevice, but his house was broken into. Twice. All that stuff will do is slow a thief down, and make you sleep better. Mabye catch some people if they're stupid enough.
But Sevemcrea has a point, there are many people out there who would be easy to steal from. But most people don't feel like knocking down an old lady to take her purse or stealing someone's car keys. It's also easy to steal a movie from a video store, to sneak into a movie theatre, but do most people do it? No!
And a 90 year old lady isn't going to stop carrying around a purse just because she's an easy targed. And the word you're looking for is "senile", not "fool".
Women other than old ladies carry purses. Also, men carry backpacks, briefcases, and other types of bags. Are they fools or senile as well? Men who carry wallets in their backpockets are easy targets for pickpockets, so are they fools or senile?
I wasn't referring to young women or men with briefcases or even pickpockets.
"You know, there are old ladies wandering the streets clutching handbags which I hear are filled with personal effects. Perhaps you could try a spot of mugging."
Men and young women are not referred to as old ladies. It was a specific issue, not a general topic of theft/pickpocketing.
But there are MANY women and men that carry personal effects in bags. What makes carrying that stuff senile?
Quote from: King_Nipper on Tue 25/10/2005 20:43:36
And a 90 year old lady isn't going to stop carrying around a purse just because she's an easy targed.Ã, And the word you're looking for is "senile", not "fool".
First of all, the first one I called a fool was myself. I was hoping that this fact along with teh parenthesis, next to the word fool which said "you know (w)hat I mean", would help to avoid this. I don't mean senile (although I had to look it up, and thanx King_Nipper). What I'm saying is that sometimes, we do mistakes, bad judgements, things that if we could take back time we wouldn't do. One of these things is my bad locking my bike. It's not having a debit/credit card. That's what I mean.
And of course it is harder to get into a house with 3-4 locks instead of half, what are you talking about. Of course, 3-4 locks mean more goodies inside. ;)
And anyway, I'm not an easy target (at least I believe I am not...). I'm 1.94 m, 110 Kgr, quite agile. 28 years old. That does not make me an easy target. Someone of course could pickpocket me. This has nothing to do with my appearance. But in order to avoid that, I keep my wallet in a safe place, my money in two different places. And my bagpack in front of me, not on my back. At least this way, I believe, that I'm doing something to prevent me getting robbed. Succesfully or not I'm not sure (it has not yet happened). But at least I am doing something. I know what I'm carrying, and I have common sense. An old ladie carrying a pursue like it's a lolipop (or whatever, you get the picture), had no common sense in that precise matter.
With the cards I don't have a choice.
I hope that explained something...
However, young men are the demographic group most likely to be mugged.
Quote from: SSH on Tue 25/10/2005 23:01:35
However, young men are the demographic group most likely to be mugged.
I didn't know that.
It sounds kind of crazy. But now that I think about it, my brother in law, who is like me, has been mugged. My brother and bot my cousins have been mugged. My mother has never been mugged.
Oooops. I've got to be more carefull.
Yeah, the only person I know who was mugged was about 25 at the time. Got a knifewound on the face too.
Possibly muggers target young men because they're the most likely to be carrying a fat roll of sovs?
Young men are likely to be carrying MP3 players, phones, expensive watches, wads of cash etc. I guess.
Little off topic but on the topic of muggings.
I've been mugged before, luckly it was nothing serious, the guy was drunk and forgot to ask for my phone (first he said money, then when I didn't have any walked away, then came back and grabbed my CD holder), so I phoned my friend who went out and waited for the guy (he was walking towards his house) and he got my stuff back. It wasn't too serious, but still enough to shake me up.
It's easy in America to get away with all sorts of crap, and our judicial system doesn't really care. They would rather be processing cases about how some fat bastard is getting even fatter by eating too much McDonald's food and sue the pants off Ronald McDonald himself, but all the while our criminals sit in jail and eat steaks and watch cable television.
I, who work at a hotel, have access to thousands of credit card numbers daily. If someone pisses me off, I can ruin their life. I have access to their name, their address, their telephone number, their signature, photocopies of their drivers license, credit card number and expiration date, and a lot of the time I can find out other personal information about them over the internet, if I need to. I was really aggravated with a guest once, and I told my coworker about it...
He now has two new laptops, and no one has come knocking on his door yet...
Just in case I'm ever in need of a hotel in the US, can you tell me which one you work for so I can avoid it like the plague and keep all my posessions, thanks very much say hi
lol I had nothing to do with him. I could have been the responsible party, but I chose to be the... umm... responsible party. I'm just saying, be careful who you piss off, because more people have access to your personal information than you think.
Besides, this happened in Rhode Island (east coast) and I now live in Arizona (west coast, almost 6000 or so miles away.. Ha, you Scottish guys with your tiny country....)
QuoteOf course, there is a way to catch you if you do something like that. My point is though that the banks don't seem to give a shit about all of this.
The banks, and the police, don't have the time to bother with small-scale fraud. If you use a stolen credit card to buy $30 of petrol or $50 of groceries, the chances are nobody will come knocking at your door. It's when you really start to take the piss and get into the $1000+ sort of area that they will seriously start looking for you.
QuoteI, who work at a hotel, have access to thousands of credit card numbers daily. If someone pisses me off, I can ruin their life. I have access to their name, their address, their telephone number, their signature, photocopies of their drivers license, credit card number and expiration date, and a lot of the time I can find out other personal information about them over the internet, if I need to. I was really aggravated with a guest once, and I told my coworker about it...
He now has two new laptops, and no one has come knocking on his door yet...
Yeah, but that's a different sort of situation -- that's an abuse of trust and quite a serious fraud charge if he was found out.