Banning my holidays ...

[Darth Mandarb]

And Darth, the use of public money to fund religous/pagan celebrations is the issue, you know.

I'm sure it's the issue with some of it ... but my mother wants to put up Christmas decorations in her school class room (at her own expense) and the powers-that-be won't allow it.  90% of her students are Christians ... so 90% (the majority) suffer so the 10% minority don't get offended?  That's just stupid.

I was developing a conspiracy that it was actually the Christians (most likely the Catholics) who were behind this.  Because, as I stated earlier, I'm not overly religious; but shit like this makes me want to be overwhelmingly religious ... just to stick it in the winer's faces!

So every year the majority of the country's children want to dress up in costume going door to door to collect candy.  I would be willing to put money on the fact that 99.99% of those children don't have the vaguest conception of the origins of Halloween.  They just like putting on Star Wars outfits, hanging out with friends, staying out after dark, and eating candy!

And if it IS all about a protest against witches ... well ... don't witches have the right to practice their religion?? 

Ohhhh the hypocracy of it all!!

[TheYak]

I don't understand the irritation.  The people, as a whole, want religious freedom and also want the government to abide by the doctrine of separation of church and state.   So are we going to arbitrarily protest the Christian holidays while allowing other holidays?  That's not exactly religious freedom.  What if we allow the standard Americanized Christian holidays in our schools but disallow other religious festivities? 

It's got to be allowing all holidays to be celebrated in our public schools or none.  Which sounds more scholastic and which the more disruptive? 

As for the cons of Halloween:
1) Juvenile delinquents roaming the street
2) Frequent and randomly aimed gunfire within blocks of where I work.

Pros:
1) Juvenile delinquents roaming the street may be hit by passing vehicles.
2) I don't work Halloween so won't encounter gunfire, but "get" to dress in a mandated costume in order to attend a party and avoid con #1.
3) Another good reason to imbibe.

[Afflict]

The reason this really pisses me off is because in trying so hard not to offend other religions ... I am being offended.

Wow, thats deep! True Darth Mandard , speak your mind and if it offends anyone, do the Oh and maerry christmas thing. My line is useally "Sorry me no speka de english, non comprehendo" This gets me out of alot of crap and my girlfriend just killed over laughing and stopped fighting with me... Back on topic.

Dude its like Rasism and Appartheid and all these things that people hide behind cause they fear of what other people will think of them. These people who have nothing to do with the specific topic just has nothing else to complain/moan about and need to do something with that unclosable hole in their face... so they b*tch.

FIGHT THE SYSTEM! Viva la resistance!

[RickJ]

First of all in Mexico they put out candles and stuff in the cemetaries and celebrate it as a solem occasion.  I believe this is also the case in some other parts of Central and South America.  So there it is more or less a religious holiday and not a kids party thing as it is in the US.   

Second of all so what if it is a religious holiday?  Why are people so intolerant?  I would be willing to bet that they same people doing this stuff are huge proponts of "Diversity".   I always ask them "Diversity of what?", because they are so intolerant of peoiple, ideas, and factual information, that does not agree with their preconvieved notions.   Am I worng?

[vict0r]

As i see it, christmas isnt a christian holiday anymore. Im a faithful atheist myself, but i love christmas, and it really doesnt remind me of jesus (or whoever) at all.

[Nikolas]

For me it's not Cristmas so much as it is the new year, which can be celebrated because it's got nothing to do with any religion...

Darth: I have to congratulate your mother! Honestly, I find teachers (not professors, plain simple teachers), amazing people that want to give! Give her my atmost respect.

I do belive that this has something to do with politcal correctness and I find it utterly silly, stupid and I don't want to use any other words. I can't understand why would a Chinese/Indian/whatever be offended by you celebrating Christmas or Halloween or the other way around. I actually like eating in Indian restaurants and having a 6-hand god on my back. I enjoy their culture, why not them ours?

Yakspit: I think that if you have a school of 95% Christians and 5% other religions the best thing to do is not to ban all religion from the school. The best thing would be rather to release the 5% from celebrating something they doin't believe in (or are not aloud to, because for example christmas seem like a very nice and childfriendly celebration to me), and on the other way around allow them to have their own celebrations. If of course the percentages go more at 50-50 then there might be aslight problem with that. In Greece there is an official religion (Christian Orthodox), which sucks bigtime, but anyway, in my highschool we had 2 Muslims. Well it was simple. They didn't prey with us every monring and had their own vacation...

[Darth Mandarb]

It's got to be allowing all holidays to be celebrated in our public schools or none.  Which sounds more scholastic and which the more disruptive?

I agree and disagree with this ... If I, as a Christian, went to a 90% Jewish school, I would totally respect their right to observe their holidays.  However, at the same time, I would expect them to respect my observing my own (and perhaps not taking part in theirs).  I certainly wouldn't demand that they not put up a minora.  Nor would I demand they allow me to put up a Christmas tree.  I would expect that the 90% majority would rule.

So I agree that all Holidays should be allowed to be celebrated, but the majority should rule.

Darth: I have to congratulate your mother! Honestly, I find teachers (not professors, plain simple teachers), amazing people that want to give! Give her my atmost respect.

Thanks, I'll pass it along!

I do belive that this has something to do with politcal correctness and I find it utterly silly, stupid and I don't want to use any other words.

I'm with you there man.  Political Correctness is destroying this country.  (maybe the world).

[Squinky]

As a christian typer person myself, I don't understand peoples intolerance of halloween, gay marriage etc...

If you don't like halloween, don't go or don't send your kids to school that day.

I always take my kids to halloween things, and when I go to church folks there tend to give me crap about it. I think its funny.

Best year ever, my first son was about 4 years old. My mom had bought him this Devil mask, and he loved. So there I am talking to somebody at church when he pipes up and says "I'm the Devil!"

It caught everybody off guard, and he said it like 3 or 4 more times, it was a priceless moment.

[Nikolas]

Since this is a little about religion (ok, a little off-topic), but I have to share todays experience.

As mentioned above I'm a Christian Orthodox. Now, I didn't chose that, but neither did my parents and my son is the same. The reason, as I have said before, is that in Greece you can't get a name unless you're baptized. Nice?

Well anyway I went to a church today (Sunday, for this part of the world). I hae to meet a high priest. A friend of my father and probalby a very good contact here... Anyways in this Greek church in London I saw that they decided to give a "theme" in the church. How when you have a party and decide to have a theme like... "pink"? That kind of thing. But it wasn't pink it was gold. And it wasn't the colour it was the precisous metal.

Shitloads of money in there. And the cermon today was about Lazarus the poor who went to paradise and the rich guy who probably still rots in Hell.

And there were young (and beautifull) ladies in there kneeling while the priest was preaching, for like 3 (?) hours. I've never seen antyhing like it.

And I'm thinking to myself: "Cool, you get to serve the lord, you reserve a place in paradise, you have everybody worship you (almost), and most important you get paid, TAX free loads of money. Why? Because the rich went to Hell."

Squinky: Give my regards to your son also. I like him. I hope mine grows up to say things like that too

EDIT: Please don't be offended from the above. It's just too much.  Ancient Greeks used to say:"Παν μετρον αριστον", pronouced Pan metron ariston and it means that you must have limits to everything. Don't overdo it. I hate quoting Ancient Greeks and I dislike hearing about Ancient GReece but this is a good rule to use in life...

[RickJ]

Best year ever, my first son was about 4 years old. My mom had bought him this Devil mask, and he loved. So there I am talking to somebody at church when he pipes up and says "I'm the Devil!"

He's a chip off the ol bloc, eh! 

===
I did a 6 month project in India.  While I was there a religious holiday came up.  Everyone showed up at work with food coloring (different colors, red, bule, yellow, etc) poured all over thier face and hair.   They looked like nutty fans at football game.   They explained the religious meaning but it didn't make much sense to me so I can't remember what it was. 

Ok, so here's the point:  I didn't believe in what they did nor was I asked to.  The meaning of what they were doing was shared with me and I graciously respected the holiday although I did not directly particpate.  I wan't offended by what they were doing and why should I be offended?   

So why wouldn't it work the other way round.  Why would a Hindu person be offended by people celebrating Christian holidays in the US or Europe which are traditionally Christian countries?  I mean if you don't believe in that religion why the hell would you give a shit?

 

[Vince Twelve]

I don't think it's the fact that other people celebrate it that offends, but the fact that someone might be forced into participation.

Such as a muslim kid having to write letters to santa or draw pictures of the easter bunny because their third grade teacher made everyone in the class do it.

(Note that I'm not saying I agree with this kind of objection.  I think everyone needs to chill out about religion in general.)

It's the same thing with the pledge of allegiance.  In America, all the kids used to have to start the day by saying the pledge which includes the words "one nation, under God."  A lot of schools don't say it now because the parents don't want this "God" (whichever one it is) being forced upon their kids.  I think the real issue should be about the enforcement of the separation of church and state (which I strongly believe in), but a lot of people are offended by this pledge for religious reasons.

I just really think everyone should keep their religion quietly out of everyone else's lives.  I hate people who try to force their religion upon others.  I almost flipped shit when the first Jehova's Witness knocked on my door here in Japan.  Those bastards are everywhere!

[RickJ]

Such as a muslim kid having to write letters to santa or draw pictures of the easter bunny because their third grade teacher made everyone in the class do it.

First of all the same people think nothing of forcing Christian children to make their own prayer rungs and practice using them in the name of cultural diversity.   

Secondly neither Santa Claus and nor the Easter Bunny can be seriously considered religious icons.  Admitedly the origin of the Santa Claus myth may have some religious roots but as practiced in modern times it's more closely associated with comercialism rather than any religious beliefs.  Further, though I am not an expert, I am not aware of any religion that formally recognizes Santa Claus.  Perhaps some of our nothern EU friend can shed some light on this aspect.

Thirdly why should muslims be so intolerant of a host culture?

It's the same thing with the pledge of allegiance.  In America, all the kids used to have to start the day by saying the pledge which includes the words "one nation, under God."  A lot of schools don't say it because they don't want this "God" (whichever one it is) being forced upon their kids.  I think the real issue should be about the enforcement of the separation of church and state, but a lot of people are offended by this for religious reasons.

First of all the term "separation of church and state"  does not appear in the US Constitution, the Declaration of Independance, or the US Code.   It appeared in correspondance between Jefferson and Adams (I believe, it was Adams).    The only place where religion is mentioned is in the first amendment where it says something to the effect that ... Congress shall make no laws extablishing a religion or preventing the free exercise thereof.... 

Secondly like it or not the concept of "god" was an essential element justifying separation from England and the founding of the US.  It is the basis of the freedoms and rights enjoyed by the citizens of the US.   In many other countries (perhaps most all?) freedoms and civil rights are privleages granted by a king or the state and so can be revoked by said king or state whenever it's convenient to do so.   In the US, however, such freedoms are granted to the people by a higher authourity, god, and therefore the state does not have the authority to revoke these freedoms.   So this is the foundation of the US goverment and the body of law that has evolved over the last 230 some years. 

The example which you site, the pledge of allegience, is simply a statment of loyalty to the country and an acknowledgement of the founding principles.   I believe this was also the conclusion of the 4th Circuit Court in a recent case.   The phrase "one nation under god" refers to an authority higher than the state from which our freedoms flow and that the state does not have the authority to mess with them.   In this sense it does not matter how one defines god or if one defines god at all.   The point is that there are things which the state does not the have authority to do with the freedom of the people.  I think that even the most devout athiest would find merit in the idea of inalienable freedoms and rights.   

Again, I just really think everyone should keep their religion quietly out of everyone else's lives.

Yeah, especially muslims eh!

[Vince Twelve]

First of all the same people think nothing of forcing Christian children to make their own prayer rungs and practice using them in the name of cultural diversity.

Again, I wasn't saying that the objection to such things was justified.

I do agree that there is a double-standard here.  Since Christianity is the most practiced religion in the US (a country that supports freedom of religion), a Christian "forcing" a non-Christian to try something Christiany is often seen as bad while a non-Christian "forcing" a Christian to try something non-Christiany is often interpretted as cultural diversity.  Again, I think people should chill out on the subject.

Secondly neither Santa Claus and nor the Easter Bunny can be seriously considered religious icons.

Super agreed!  Another reason why this "banning" of religion thing is silly.

Thirdly why should muslims be so intolerant of a host culture?

*screech* we're not hosting them.  They live here.  They are just as American as you are.  I don't want to get into a semantic argument about whether or not being the predominant religion makes you the host culture, but I do think that thinking this way is a bit indelicate. 

First of all the term "separation of church and state" does not appear in the US Constitution, the Declaration of Independance, or the US Code.

I'm aware that separation of church and state is not, as such, a law.  I was merely professing my strong belief in the idea behind that statement.  I personally don't believe that the word God should have been added to the pledge, but I'm aware of why it's there and don't really have a problem with it.  Again, I stand by my 'chill out' proposal.

Again, I just really think everyone should keep their religion quietly out of everyone else's lives.

Yeah, especially muslims eh!

Ah... err... no.

Yarrr...

[shbaz]

I'm an atheist. I celebrate Halloween, Christmas, Easter (insofar as I go home to eat dinner with the fam), Thanksgiving, etc. I consider it a national tradition more than a religious holiday. What child relates Halloween, Christmas or Easter with religion unless specifically told to do so? The truth is that they're about getting lots of candy from strangers, getting and giving lots of gifts to people you care about, and getting lots of candy from a giant fictional bunny, respectively. The religious connotations are lost outside of the Sunday mass/sermon and so far removed from the real world that they can't really be regarded as Christian holidays anymore, just holidays with Christian origins.

[Babar]

I used to go to an international school where there was a large number of different religions. Thankfully they were pretty balanced and there was no real majority. I can only remember one instance of "religious intolerance" and that, ironically was initiated by a teacher.
During Christmas I exchanged gifts with my Christian friends, during Diwali my Hindu friends brought sweets and crackers (not sure what they are called...fizzlers?) to school, during Eid it was not only the muslims who wanted gifts from the teachers.
Everyone was reasonably understanding of each other. When wanting to treat a Hindu, no one offered beef food, during Ramadan, even non-muslims tried not to eat infront of muslims, and religious discussion rarely came up. Some may consider this denial of their rights of speech, or freedom of religion or something, but it worked incredibly well.

The point is, as Vince put it, if the custom means nothing to your religion, and you consider it nonsense, there should be no problem in joining in on the fun. I didn't consider going to christmas parties an affront to my religion. I just saw it as a way to get together (and get gifts, of course ). I suppose "religious freedom" comes down to letting everyone celebrate all their religions, or banning all visiblity of religion. The 2nd one is probably much easier, hence that's what is opted for.

[Redwall]

I personally don't believe that the word God should have been added to the pledge, but I'm aware of why it's there and don't really have a problem with it.

You don't have a problem with it being there because Congress wanted to differentiate us from the godless communists during the Cold War?

I don't want to drag this off-topic, but using "God" as a symbol of inalienable rights is just silly...

[Vince Twelve]

Again, I don't think it should have been added to the pledge.

It's not a big deal to me because I don't think saying the pledge in any way affects me or makes me profess my devotion to any one god.  "Chill"

[Kinoko]

The big problem here is people associating these holidays with religion. Anyone doing that - it:s YOUR fault.

Christmas isn't about christianity - it's about rum balls and turkey and loved ones and PRESENTS and decorations and getting pissed on seasonal alcohol! BBQs and overeating and your stupid neices and nephews making noise with their stupid loud toys and getting drunk and terrible xmas TV and being disappointed with your gifts and prawn cocktails and pavlova and that thing my nanna only makes at xmas (but not for much longer cause she's bloody getting on now so it won't be much longer before she dies) and playing all your new computer games.

That's what christmas is.

Easter is simple - holidays and chocolate. Chocolate, chocolate, chocolate. Getting less of it every year you get older until it barely matters anymore. The price of easter eggs going up and up to the point where you ask people not to get you eggs and bunnies, just bars of Cadbury bought when they're on special. Wanting TONNES of it but getting sick of it after one. Realising you don't want any until after breakfast and lunch anymore (unlike being a kid when you wanted to cram it all into your face at 6am). Stupid Easter TV. Wanting Easter to be over so you can go to the discount stores and get all the left overs at a super low price, but not even that happens anymore because they know everyone does that.

Halloween? Ah who cares, it's an American holiday ^_^

(but! It's about halloween parties, kids trick or treating, carving pumpkins like your favourite pop culture characters and dressing up)

[Afflict]

I agree with Kinoko on this, its about spending time with our families and enjoying one self.
I also think it gives kids something to believe in like Santa and the easter bunny and all those
wacky dudes... Installs the age old good kicks evils but, but be carefull its still out there.

Well whatever.

[Pumaman]

It's starting again...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4398680.stm