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Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cyberion on Sat 04/09/2004 23:21:25

Title: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Cyberion on Sat 04/09/2004 23:21:25
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624024.stm


So any thought about this disaster?


Personaly i would liek to give my best regard to those, whos relatives/children have died.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Haddas on Sat 04/09/2004 23:31:33
I would also like to pay tribute to the parents and children who died during the event.

It's things like these that make me ashamed of being a human being. Do these people have no moral? Why children? CHILDREN? Why can't we all just get along? Maybe someday, we will. But I doubt that. :'(
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Sat 04/09/2004 23:37:03
World sucks.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens on Sat 04/09/2004 23:56:58
It's sad that it takes events such as these to wake people up about the nature of terrorism, and the fact that it will not remain centered on one country.  Hopefully the world governments will really start working together to crack down on terrorism so that the US and England don't continue looking like the bad guys in the fight against terrorism, and hopefully tragedies like this one will be averted in the future.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Sun 05/09/2004 00:09:41
Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 04/09/2004 23:56:58
It's sad that it takes events such as these to wake people up about the nature of terrorism, and the fact that it will not remain centered on one country.Ã,  Hopefully the world governments will really start working together to crack down on terrorism so that the US and England don't continue looking like the bad guys in the fight against terrorism, and hopefully tragedies like this one will be averted in the future.

I was going to reply something like that, but in a more sarcastic way... Anyway, I declined because I am tired... We complain to hell because 15 or 20 guys have been humilliated in  Abu Ghraib is "cool", but when the same people kills 150 kids we shut up. I am vey sad and tired.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Czar on Sun 05/09/2004 14:31:24
Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 04/09/2004 23:56:58
It's sad that it takes events such as these to wake people up about the nature of terrorism, and the fact that it will not remain centered on one country.Ã,  Hopefully the world governments will really start working together to crack down on terrorism so that the US and England don't continue looking like the bad guys in the fight against terrorism, and hopefully tragedies like this one will be averted in the future.

That is a very naive way of looking at things.
Nothing evil is made by itself, like the Newton's law, every action has it's reaction.
The terrorist are NOT the only one to blame for the situation.
In a way i can understand them, tho I don't support the slaughter of children.

What would you do if your country was in a pressure by a bigger country, and they are not giving you any rights, all your familiy and friends' familiy hasn't eaten solid food in a week, and it goes on and on and on with no hope of getting better.

The only way is to do "kick the Goliat in the balls".

And I think it's a well known fact that USA uses the terrorism thing as a cover for personal power, and NOBODY can deny it.

..more typos from me later...
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: modgeulator on Sun 05/09/2004 15:56:08
Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 04/09/2004 23:56:58
It's sad that it takes events such as these to wake people up about the nature of terrorism, and the fact that it will not remain centered on one country.Ã,  Hopefully the world governments will really start working together to crack down on terrorism so that the US and England don't continue looking like the bad guys in the fight against terrorism, and hopefully tragedies like this one will be averted in the future.

It's sad that some people are going to use this tragedy as an excuse to push more doublespeak "war on terror" dogma down everyone's throat. Newsflash: Terrorism isn't new. It existed before September 9/11. While there are groups of people pushed to the point of insanity, insane acts will continue. I'm sure we'll all be hearing of links, whether real or fictional, between these events and Al Qaeda soon enough. This kind of manipulation makes me sick.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: DGMacphee on Sun 05/09/2004 16:18:02
Quote from: Farlander on Sun 05/09/2004 00:09:41
We complain to hell because 15 or 20 guys have been humilliated in  Abu Ghraib is "cool", but when the same people kills 150 kids we shut up.

I wouldn't exctly say they're the "same people", but I do kind of understand what you're trying to say.

Tis indeed sad.

But I think terrorists toutured in a prison or children being killed are both quite sad.  That's the problem with wars -- they create chaos like this.

And I don't think people are shutting up about the kids being killed.

QuoteIt's sad that some people are going to use this tragedy as an excuse to push more doublespeak "war on terror" dogma down everyone's throat. Newsflash: Terrorism isn't new. It existed before September 9/11. While there are groups of people pushed to the point of insanity, insane acts will continue. I'm sure we'll all be hearing of links, whether real or fictional, between these events and Al Qaeda soon enough. This kind of manipulation makes me sick.

Aye, if countries in the coalition of the willing are going to politicise this, what are they going to do to rectify this? Oh wait, Russia wasn't in the Coalition of the Willing. Too bad.

It's kind of a double standard, really, as in "Yes, we'll eliminate terror, but only the terrorists we choose. Sorry, Russia!" That's why I'm not happy about Bush or our Howard exploiting these deaths for their own political purposes (Hey, both have elections on, so you have to score points where you can).
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Babar on Sun 05/09/2004 16:39:38
It is truely sad that people will resort to things like this. I agree with Czar that this is not something that happens by itself, and is the result of a huge chain reaction, but that still does not excuse what these people did. Like Haddas said, Why children? No "mission" or any such objective justifies the killing of these children. My prayers are with the dead and mourning.

BTW, Farlander, I do not understand your point. How is anything that happened in Abu Ghraib related to this? What happened in Abu Ghraib is not excused by what these type of people did, nor is what happened in Russia excused in anyway by what happened in Abu Ghraib. I doubt they are even connected in anyway. You seem to want to push this point, (you also posted some odd comic awhile back about it), when it bears no relation.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Goldmund on Sun 05/09/2004 17:10:48
Tragedy aside, it is indeed a very comfortable event for people who declare "war on terror".
I advise you to get to know what is the nature of the conflict in Chechnya - this should make your view much less monochrome.
It's interesting that Poland was in great favour of Chechnya, people wrote songs and wrote articles in which they demanded freedom for this small country - and now, puff, chechens are just Bin Ladens in different hats.
Inventing any connections to Al Queda make me sick.

The stupid and carefree action of Russian anti-terrorist squads is not surprising at all, considering that the country (although I love it very much) doesn't exactly have a tradition of valuing the human material very much.
There's reason why they have the first man in space, no?
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: DGMacphee on Sun 05/09/2004 17:40:45
Quote from: Goldmund on Sun 05/09/2004 17:10:48
Inventing any connections to Al Queda make me sick.

How I second that!
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Haddas on Sun 05/09/2004 17:51:38
Just wait. It's gonna happen soon enough.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Andail on Sun 05/09/2004 21:38:56
I had to change the channel after the third time I watched the news covering this tragedy, I literally couldn't hold my tears back.

And what's the recipe to cure this? More military actions, more soldiers pouring into Chechnya, more opression. Because that's how we are tought to fight terrorism. Weapon factories will flourish. The military have - after all- proven to be such a faboulous way of solving these conflicts around the world.
I'm getting bloody tired of it all
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Sun 05/09/2004 22:53:41
Chechnya was independent after reaching peace with Yeltsin's Russia, but they attacked Daguestán. That's why nobody should ask himself if the terrorists are right or not before leaving the armed fight, because any success encourages them more. Maybe they had the right to be independent, but they as they reached them with blood, they thoght that they had founf the philosophal stone.

Example. I am pro-basque, but I just don't wonder me about their situation while a terrorist organization is deffending their right to be free. Many times we tend to belief that terrotists are people opressed to their limit by a huge and powerfull nation, but in many of cases I can think about, they're just criminals who need an excuse to act. ETA is close to become a non- terrorist organization, and I will start to deffend their rights as hell in that very moment.

It is like Ben Laden. Somebody thinks he was a multimillionary arab who left their palaces to start a romantic fight in Afganistan. He was actually a non-very rich son of the many sons that a sheik had with many spouses. He left Arabia to start a host business for fighters in Afghanistan (the host house was called Al-Quaeda, the base). The press created a romantic fighter, but what we really have is a inkeeper who had luck with their opium dealing business. What a change, isn't it?

Who is the naive now? The belicists, who know they're evil and they will go on, no matter what we do? Or the peacifists, who think that giving them some things they will happily leave their weapons? Al-Quaeda claims the dissapering of any Occidental item from the holy lands. Spain was "Al-Andalus". So, should I accept the fact that I must leave my country to that mob because you want to remain safe?

Petter! Make a gap for me in your room! I gotta move becuase a crazy Wahaby wants to live in my home!  ;) (Take it as a joke, matey)

Of course, any action by countries "apparently" creates reactions. I think that this savage acts would happen anyway because they're criminals, so, we must try to strike back,playing an infinite Ping-Pong match. I know we can't win, but they neither.

My hope is that someday people will open its eyes and see how lovely and rich is Islam... But the dangers of Wahabism, the most aggressive and radical group in Islam. The problem is that Wahaby is the majot religion in Saudi Arabia, and they use the petrodollars to spread it out, their messages of hate. Do you imagine that Texas was the most rich state in the USA, and the religion there was the KKKlanish? (Insert joke here "That's what actually is happening!" Daniel  ;))

That's what I call a problem. You see that trying to link Al-Quaeda with Chechnya makes you sick... They're not linked, they're in the same height, but the ideal they pursuit is the same.

The only good thing I can think I can see in all the School stuff is that some of the peacifists see that some countries are threatened, and using the Ostrich tactic won't work forever. We are claiming help... You can decline to help us, but sooner or later the problem will reach you (I hope not, but it's happening). I wonder if you will start blaming the countires who started the oppossition, or you'll finally decide to face it with us.

I have finally expressed that I think that this will end with a final struggle between many nations after the terrorists have done something really great (Who knows, putting a nuke in Rome, or something).

Which is the opinion of the peacifists, your recipe? Compression and more compression? I WOULD like to believe in such a sollution... Do you really think we wouldn't like to put the TV news and sewing just weather profiles and economy stuff? Do you really think we are belicists because we like it, cos we like to see blowing bodies in busses, slaughtered palestinian bodies? Please thell me your sollution and I'll change my side.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: DGMacphee on Mon 06/09/2004 03:32:05
Quote from: Farlander on Sun 05/09/2004 22:53:41
Do you imagine that Texas was the most rich state in the USA, and the religion there was the KKKlanish? (Insert joke here "That's what actually is happening!" Daniel  ;))

Bah! How can I make jokes when you keep preempting them!
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Mon 06/09/2004 10:12:31
I won't spoil more jokes!Ã,  :D

Anyway... I think that my previous post was too long... During this night I've thought in a synopsis.

Russeau said that the human race is good by nature and it is just the enviroment which makes the human beings be evil. The peacifists use this theory to look for the motivations of the terrorists, and they think that if this motivations dissapear, they will stop acting. Wanna know something? Russeau was wrong. The human being is evil in many occasions, without need of explanation. Hitler was not opressed or had a worst childhood than many of the kids in the final of the XIXth century, Bin Laden was not opressed (Do you want to include Bush in the Axis of the evil)ok... Bush hasn't been opressed or specially unhappy, nor Stalin, or what we can guess about Jack the Ripper... The human being has a great percentage of evilness in their behaviour, with no reason at all. The human children crush ants... We're the only animal which is cruel with no learning purposes.

And the great leaders of terrorist movements are evil people, which use the naive and opressed people to have an army. They're criminals using the desesperation of entire communities.

So... If we give something they demmand... they will think in another thing, because the leaders of that organisations just use that reivindications as an excuse. The contraband of weapons is the most lucrative ilegal business in the world, kicking the ass of drugs.

That's why I think we must fight against a religion, Wahabism, which supresses the will of millions of people. It is sick, but all this clergyman and Ulemas may be the less believers in the world, but they just preted for having an army of zombies with no brain.

I want you to see the problems of a religion without a central authority. Islam has no "Rome"... Anybody can put a notice in a building "Mosque", and start proclaiming, no matter how many hate their speech contain.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Barcik on Mon 06/09/2004 20:09:28
Quote from: Andail on Sun 05/09/2004 21:38:56
I had to change the channel after the third time I watched the news covering this tragedy, I literally couldn't hold my tears back.

And what's the recipe to cure this? More military actions, more soldiers pouring into Chechnya, more opression. Because that's how we are tought to fight terrorism. Weapon factories will flourish. The military have - after all- proven to be such a faboulous way of solving these conflicts around the world.
I'm getting bloody tired of it all

I very much agree with Nacho. Petter, violence is in the human nature. One can complain about it, one can criticize it, but one mustn't deny it. I would love it to be so that if I refused to join the IDF, a terrorist from the Hammas wouldn't attack me if he had the chance. But it wouldn't.
Nor is being ultra-violent right. One mustn't also deny the power of diplomacy, negotiations and speech. The answer lies somewhere betweent those two ends. If only someone knew where.

QuoteThe stupid and carefree action of Russian anti-terrorist squads is not surprising at all, considering that the country (although I love it very much) doesn't exactly have a tradition of valuing the human material very much.
There's reason why they have the first man in space, no?

This is something that is sadly dismissed. The Russian special forces are very un-proffesional. I think that many, many of the casualties were directly hit by Russian forces. No planning, no caution. Shoot whatever piece of meat you see. That's their approach.
Although, knowing the Ruskies, I think the Chechenyans are one of the more 'oppressed' people. The Russian army is a collection of thugs and pigs. Their behaviour, especially in drunk mode, often goes beyond brutal.

QuoteSo... If we give something they demmand... they will think in another thing, because the leaders of that organisations just use that reivindications as an excuse. The contraband of weapons is the most lucrative ilegal business in the world, kicking the ass of drugs.

That's why I think we must fight against a religion, Wahabism, which supresses the will of millions of people. It is sick, but all this clergyman and Ulemas may be the less believers in the world, but they just preted for having an army of zombies with no brain.

I want you to see the problems of a religion without a central authority. Islam has no "Rome"... Anybody can put a notice in a building "Mosque", and start proclaiming, no matter how many hate their speech contain

The problem with the Islam, is that it allows a bunch of Mesiah-disguised politicians brainwash millions of followers. Iranians, for example, are not Americans - they are poorer, and their lives are harder. Therefore, they are more easily influenced by leaders who use loopholes in their Holy Book to progress their goals. The problem, is not really with the religion, but with its followers. One way or another, the West needs to give them a progressional kick in the arse.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Andail on Tue 07/09/2004 12:26:52
What do you mean by "deny", Barcik?
Do you think I don't believe violence exists?

I'm saying that it pisses me off that every time something awful happens, the first thing that comes to people's minds is to use military force to solve it. I'm just saying it's pretty strange that after all this time, we haven't come any longer.

Every conflict there is today, is there because people tried to solve it by using violence. It's a vicious spiral.

The Bloody Sunday incident rather trigged than soothed the conflict in Northern Ireland - the military intervention was intended to take the wind out of the IRA, but it just inflamed it.

Your own little skirmish? Will the conflict between Israel and Palestine cease until you solve it by diplomacy? Please don't give me a million excuses to why the Palestines are so incapable of reasoning, I'm not taking sides or anything.
Just ask yourself if it will end before at least one man puts down his gun, takes some beating without retaliating, and says "it was worth it for the sake of getting closer to peace."

It's easy to say that a pacifist is naive, and that has always been your main argument, Barcik. Don't take it for granted. I haven't spent all the years I'm ahead of you sitting idly in my appartment, lulled by hippies and ideologists.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: SSH on Tue 07/09/2004 12:50:50
I've just finished reading Mila 18 by Leon Uris. There, despite the worse oppression imaginable in the Warsaw ghetto, the Jews did not fight until the very last moment. Even then, they only attacked the forces sent into the ghetto, they didn't go looking for a fight. That is true courage.

Violence leads to violence and it is the stronger and better person who is the first one to lay down arms.

In some ways, terrorists are like childish. They believe that the world revolves around them and their concerns and they will hit anyone who gets in their way if they want something, and if they can't achieve that they can get very frustrated, upset and self-destructive. Obviously if a child is doing something seriously destructive, you have to stop the immediate threat, but being cruel to them as a punishemnt only leads to them learning that cruelty is the way to deal with things that you don't like.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Tue 07/09/2004 14:21:01
Exactly Andrew... Believing nowadays that terrorism will work for impose ideas is so childish that thinking that the heads of terrorism are doing it just for accomplishing their reivindications is ridiculous. Who can think that terrorism works? The conflict in Ireland hasn't been solved in a hundred years. Three of the main social archievements in the last century, the indian independence and the recognisement of the rights of black people in the US and South Africa were archieved by peaceful movements.

So, my point is clear... Terrorists are professionals suckers!  ;D

How can we finish with that? The military solution seems so bad as doing nothing. But the problem is that terrorism is a resource used by evil people to convince the naives and weak, opressed in many times, masses of people to fight for them and have an army.

We must cut that heads.

When I was thinking in this very subject, yesterday, I took a look to the notebooks I have refering to the very topic SSH talked about before, the resistence in Warsaw. I asked to myself, is ALL terrorism bad? I reached to the conclussion that, yes. If there was a truly evil nation doing really bad things to another (I.E. Nazi Germany in Poland) actions of resistance could be easy to understand. I remember that a head of the SS (Heydrich?) was killed in (Checoslovaquia?). I can remember the resistance movements in the Ghetto of Warsaw, in France... But that are resistance movements. We can't assume a polish guy putting a bomb in a tram in Berlin, killing civilian women and children.

I hope that with this Ossetia affaire, people will realise that terrorism is not a romantic fight against the opression. Talking of the opression that the palestinians are suffering is, excuse me, ridiculous if compared with the suffering that the jewish suffered in Warsaw. Any kind of opression is dispicable, yes, but they were 500,000 in the Ghetto at 1941 and in 1943 they were just 30,000. Remember this cyfers before saying that the reasons for bombing buses in Tel-Aviv have some substract of right.

That situation 1943 was indeed desesperate, and not having to walk half an hour more to reach your place of work because the Jews have put a stupid wall in the middle...   :P[/black humor]

This bad people exist. This evil heads controlling the masses exist. We can't finish with them with peacifists sollutions, now it's time to see how is it going with bullets.

Because, remember this... the situation was dealt with peacifism and compression before some supid psycho decided that the americans should abandon their bases in Arabia, and preppaired 4 planes to crash against the WTC, the Pentagon and the (White house?).

Things were dealt with peacifism and compression while a psycho with riduculous moustache and his allies occupied Sudetes, Austria, the Ruhr, Abisinia, China... before one guy decided to invade Poland.

That are two examples of spirals of violence which started "spontaniously" in some way...

The world is complicate. So complicate that we can't know if belicists or peacifists are right. Fortunately, this thread has been a pleasure to read. I've finally felt free to express how I would attempt to sollute the problems. I hope that with this we've seen that some of the belicists are not "stupid fascists thist of blood". We all want the things back to normal, but the ways to reach it are not the same.

Some poeple likes to paint Bush as a stupid and ignorant (------Space reserved for DG's joke------). But Mr. Henry Kissinger, who I presuppose is a wise and human being replied to a person who was attacking the Govenrment "They're a group of normal people, with good intentions, who is facing a great problem, and they do what they believe is the best, without knowing for sure if it is"
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: SSH on Tue 07/09/2004 14:38:45
Umm, I think you'll find that there was plenty of terrorism going on as part of the South African struggle for freedom. Nelson Mandela says so himself in "Long Walk to Freedom".

Also, to suggest that there are no childish adults in the world is ridiculous. Look at Road Rage, divorce rates, abuse statistics...

Also, to suggest that Hitler's invasion of Poland was spontaneous is a gross over-simplification. There are so many more factors to it, not least the resentment created by the Versailles treaty... whihc was a childish act of punishement by the Allies that never achived any monetary benefit for themsleves and increased hatred in the Germans.

And Bin Laden didn't come out of a vacuum. CAn you deny that unquestioning American support of the state of Isreal, and the US attempts to prop-up and overthrow various middle-east rulers was not at all provocatory?

The difference between a chldish and a mature attitude is that the childish always lashes out in response to a percieved hurt and will do everything to get retribution. The mature considers all the consequences and will do everything to avoid escalation.

FOr example, the movie "The Sum of all fears" has its faults, but the point is that mutual destruction can only be avoided by one person NOT retaliating.


Also, has anyone spotted the irony of the Isrealies building a wall around their own ghetto of palestinians?
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Darth Mandarb on Tue 07/09/2004 15:22:35
I have been staying out of political discussions recently (just 'cause they tend to get heated) but I thought I'd chime in here just a little bit.

I really don't think terrorists understand 'peace-talks'.

Their hatred is too deeply ingrained into them for that.

I don't like it, but I really think military action is the only way to deal with them.Ã,  Imagine this scenario ... a team of U.N. diplomats meets with an Al-Qaeda operative to discuss the ceasation of hostilities.Ã,  They meet, shake hands, and then the bomb goes off killing them all.Ã, 

Terrorist don't want peace, they want their enemies dead.

Violence begets violence (as SSH pointed out) ... I just don't think (as I've said before) that we've been out of the trees long enough for human nature to change to the point that we aren't a violent species.

Ironic isn't it ... the fact that the violence in our 'human nature' is the very thing that shows how similar we all truely are?
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: DGMacphee on Tue 07/09/2004 15:25:28
Quote from: Barcik on Mon 06/09/2004 20:09:28
The problem with the Islam, is that it allows a bunch of Mesiah-disguised politicians brainwash millions of followers.

Strange. I thought Bush was doing the same thing with Christianity. (You like that one, Farlander?)  ;D
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Tue 07/09/2004 15:41:41
1) But the main item of the fight was a pasive subject, Mandela, in a prison. Anyway, when the claims are so obvious, terrorism can sometimes not be an obstacle, but it never helps.

2) Where in my post have you read that there is no childish in the world? Man, sometimes the will of reply is so big that people just invents lines... Ã, :)

3) The invasion of Poland was not spontaneous, but it can never be an answer to a opression to the polish to the germans. Ã, If we talk about german opressed we should ask the French and the British. In any case, my example was more related of what an evil state can archieve whereas the civilizate part lose times in useless peace conversations.

4) People is allways free to choose... If a person choose to hot three planes against civilians because he thinks that a country is provocating him, I think he is evil. I think that the behave of the Central Government in Spain has been quite provocative against Valencia, Catalunya, Pays Basque... But it haven't passed thru my mind to put a bomb in Vallecas... not for any sensible mind. Bin Laden is not fighting against the US for their behaviour in Middle East, that probably gives a fuck to him. He is earnign money by Saudi Arabia for it, and it helps it business of weapon and drug dealing. Don't trust the Arab propaganda.

5) Who gives you the divine inspiration too say that the peacifist option is more mature than the belicist? Do you have a magic cristal ball or something? I have expressed three examples of what a neutral attitude against the "aggressives" does. Put here an example of a a big conflict with terrorist who has happily ended with conversations and we will discuss on it. I've enjoyed this thread because both sides have expressed their opinions and how they would sollute the problem. Now all finishes with a "You're an inmature group of childish guys who just do not think of the future consequences!"? You are so much better than that, Andrew. Ã, :)

6) In the sum of all fears we were talking of two sensitive leaders who wanted to save its life and the life of their people, whereas when we talk of terrorists we talk of evil people who gives a fuck against their army, 'cos they just want to keep a war who benefits them, how can you compare?
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Tue 07/09/2004 15:42:25
Quote from: DGMacphee on Tue 07/09/2004 15:25:28
Quote from: Barcik on Mon 06/09/2004 20:09:28
The problem with the Islam, is that it allows a bunch of Mesiah-disguised politicians brainwash millions of followers.

Strange. I thought Bush was doing the same thing with Christianity. (You like that one, Farlander?)Ã,  ;D

/me thumbs up!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: SSH on Tue 07/09/2004 16:19:57
Quote from: Farlander on Tue 07/09/2004 15:41:41
1) But the main item of the fight was a pasive subject, Mandela, in a prison. Anyway, when the claims are so obvious, terrorism can sometimes not be an obstacle, but it never helps.
I'm sorry, but the truth is that terror can work. Nelson Mandela says in his book that it was a necessary part of the struggle in South Africa. How did the state of Israel come to be founded? MI5 papers have been released showing that there were plots to assasinate British ministers in the 40s.

I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

Quote
3) The invasion of Poland was not spontaneous, but it can never be an answer to a opression to the polish to the germans.  If we talk about german opressed we should ask the French and the British. In any case, my example was more related of what an evil state can archieve whereas the civilizate part lose times in useless peace conversations.
quote]
4) People is allways free to choose... If a person choose to hot three planes against civilians because he thinks that a country is provocating him, I think he is evil. I think that the behave of the Central Government in Spain has been quite provocative against Valencia, Catalunya, Pays Basque... But it haven't passed thru my mind to put a bomb in Vallecas... not for any sensible mind. Bin Laden is not fighting against the US for their behaviour in Middle East, that probably gives a fuck to him. He is earnign money by Saudi Arabia for it, and it helps it business of weapon and drug dealing. Don't trust the Arab propaganda.quote]
4) People is allways free to choose... If a person choose to hot three planes against civilians because he thinks that a country is provocating him, I think he is evil. I think that the behave of the Central Government in Spain has been quite provocative against Valencia, Catalunya, Pays Basque... But it haven't passed thru my mind to put a bomb in Vallecas... not for any sensible mind. Bin Laden is not fighting against the US for their behaviour in Middle East, that probably gives a fuck to him. He is earnign money by Saudi Arabia for it, and it helps it business of weapon and drug dealing. Don't trust the Arab propaganda.
The Northern Ireland situation is much better than it has been in the 70s and 80s and that is thanks to peace dialogs. South Africa did eventually come round, mainly peacefully. Independence in South America and Africa have cases of both mainly peaceful and mainly bloody change.

Quote
4) People is allways free to choose... If a person choose to hot three planes against civilians because he thinks that a country is provocating him, I think he is evil. I think that the behave of the Central Government in Spain has been quite provocative against Valencia, Catalunya, Pays Basque... But it haven't passed thru my mind to put a bomb in Vallecas... not for any sensible mind. Bin Laden is not fighting against the US for their behaviour in Middle East, that probably gives a fuck to him. He is earnign money by Saudi Arabia for it, and it helps it business of weapon and drug dealing. Don't trust the Arab propaganda.

But many of his fighters beleive that he is, and that is in some ways more important than his real motives

Quote
5) Who gives you the divine inspiration too say that the peacifist option is more mature than the belicist? Do you have a magic cristal ball or something?

Did I say that? Who's making up things now? I said maturity was doing as much as possible to avoid violence. Hitler abused the trust of Chamberlain but then the Cuban missile crisis ultimately went the other way.

By the way, the word is "belligerent", not "belicist"  ;)

Quote
I have expressed three examples of what a neutral attitude against the "aggressives" does. Put here an example of a a big conflict with terrorist who has happily ended with conversations and we will discuss on it. I've enjoyed this thread because both sides have expressed their opinions and how they would sollute the problem. Now all finishes with a "You're an inmature group of childish guys who just do not think of the future consequences!"? You are so much better than that, Andrew.  :)

I was calling the terrorists childish, not anyone posting here.  Anyway, the solution, I think, is to offer genuine hope to those who believe they are being oppressed. Would it be wrong to show the children of palestine hope that they wont be forced out of their homes by an Isreali army of soldiers and wall-builders and hope that they won't be killed in retribution for the action of a desperate man who happened to have the same ethnic background as them. Would it be wrong for the people of Chechnya to have a hope that one day they can rule themselves and not have politicians forced on them by Russia, even though some of the people who say they want that disgustingly killed a bunch of innocent children.

And as for terrosit leaders benefitting from terrorism, I think it is arms manufacturers who benefit most from all this.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: on Tue 07/09/2004 16:21:05
Quote from: Andail on Tue 07/09/2004 12:26:52
What do you mean by "deny", Barcik?
Do you think I don't believe violence exists?

I'm saying that it pisses me off that every time something awful happens, the first thing that comes to people's minds is to use military force to solve it. I'm just saying it's pretty strange that after all this time, we haven't come any longer.

Every conflict there is today, is there because people tried to solve it by using violence. It's a vicious spiral.

The Bloody Sunday incident rather trigged than soothed the conflict in Northern Ireland - the military intervention was intended to take the wind out of the IRA, but it just inflamed it.

Your own little skirmish? Will the conflict between Israel and Palestine cease until you solve it by diplomacy? Please don't give me a million excuses to why the Palestines are so incapable of reasoning, I'm not taking sides or anything.
Just ask yourself if it will end before at least one man puts down his gun, takes some beating without retaliating, and says "it was worth it for the sake of getting closer to peace."

It's easy to say that a pacifist is naive, and that has always been your main argument, Barcik. Don't take it for granted. I haven't spent all the years I'm ahead of you sitting idly in my appartment, lulled by hippies and ideologists.

And yet, you do go to some wrong extremes. Wasn't my "own little skrimish" started when Arabs refused to accept the UN's diplomatic solution of the conflict back in 1947? True, many conflicts have emerged out of a violent solution. But others were caused by passiveness.

And truly, I haven't got a clue when and how the conflict here would end. Nobody knows (where Nacho's Kisinger quote comes in). Maybe it will take diplomacy, and maybe it will take brute force. My guess, is that it will be the perfectly accurate mixture of the two.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: SSH on Tue 07/09/2004 16:26:45
Quote from: Barcik@Work on Tue 07/09/2004 16:21:05
And yet, you do go to some wrong extremes. Wasn't my "own little skrimish" started when Arabs refused to accept the UN's diplomatic solution of the conflict back in 1947?

No

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/politicspast/story/0,9061,961081,00.html
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Barcik on Tue 07/09/2004 19:17:00
This article is very inaccurate, and furthermore, irrelevent to what I posted.

Yes, there were small groups of Zionist terrorists, called the Etzel and the Lehi, both with an extremely 'peaceful' agenda compared to what happened in Beslan. Their most well know act was the explosion of the King David hotel in the Jerusalem, which was used as the headquarters of the British army in the land of Israel. Tens of civlians, soldiers and British officials were murdered, despite the fact that the people who worked in King David received an anonymous phone call warning of the attact some time before it happened. The attack was massively criticized by most of the Jewish settlement, and completely ruined the reputation of both these organizations. In fact, "Ha-Haganah" (The Defence), the biggest Jewish military group which later truned into the IDF, even helped the British army capture some of the terrorists.

But how does this directly relate with the Arab-Israeli conflict and what I said, SSH?
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Tue 07/09/2004 19:45:23
I thought that you were telling childish to the people who agree with  the "bellicisterant" ( ;D  ;D  ;D) way, not the terrorists... It's been really a relief. I am tired to hear that I suck because "I like war", that I am an idiot, or a preson without soul. As I said in this thread, I deffend military actions because I think they finally save lives. I remember that there was a very unpolite guy in Tripoli, putting bombs in planes and all that, who became very pasive when some bombs felt down in his palace...

Anyway, I keep my opinion that violence does not help. Sometimes the right of the demmands are so huge that no matter if violent acts have been an obstacle. That happened in South Africa, the Apartheid was alone in the world, no longer accepted by the rest of the countries, and no government can survive in that situation.

In Catalonia and Basque Country, terrorism has been an obstacle, and these counties hasn't started being considered serious and received authonomy till their terrorist groups finished or redouced its acts (Terra Lliure in Catalunya and ETA in Basque country).

In Ireland it all started when the IRA announced a cease fire. When they threat to use weapons again, they spoil all the process, but not for fear, just because people is annoyed of sitting to discuss in the same table with people who has a gun in his jackett.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: SSH on Tue 07/09/2004 21:03:46
Quote from: Barcik on Tue 07/09/2004 19:17:00
This article is very inaccurate, and furthermore, irrelevent to what I posted.

It was simply quoting what was in the MI5 archives...

Quote
But how does this directly relate with the Arab-Israeli conflict and what I said, SSH?

You said:
Quote from: Barcik@Work on Tue 07/09/2004 16:21:05
Wasn't my "own little skrimish" started when Arabs refused to accept the UN's diplomatic solution of the conflict back in 1947?

No, the current Israeli - Palestinian conflict dates back before then, during which time there were Isreali terrorist acts and ultimately Isreal gained statehood. My point was that this was a case were terrorism worked.

Also,  it might be fairer to say "Wasn't my "own little skrimish" started when a majority of the population and and a majority of non-state landowners refused to accept the UN's diplomaticly pressured by the USA proposalof the conflict back in 1947?", although, if the Arabs HAD accepted it, would Israel then have NOT gone on to occupy huge areas NOT par tof the 1947 resolution? I'm skeptical...
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: jetxl on Tue 07/09/2004 21:09:37
I also have stayed out of political discussions. (because somebody wants to piss me)

Chechnya once had a peacefull president, but he got killed. (shot in the back by one of his bodyguards) When he died he took the chance of peace and diplomacy with him.
Now Chechnya excists out of clans. Each clan wants to rule all and thinks the other clans are bandits. They destroy villages, kill the men and rape the women. (it happened before)
Russia is supporting one clan.

Quote from: Barcik on Mon 06/09/2004 20:09:28
I very much agree with Nacho. Petter, violence is in the human nature. One can complain about it, one can criticize it, but one mustn't deny it. I would love it to be so that if I refused to join the IDF, a terrorist from the Hammas wouldn't attack me if he had the chance. But it wouldn't.
Nor is being ultra-violent right. One mustn't also deny the power of diplomacy, negotiations and speech. The answer lies somewhere betweent those two ends. If only someone knew where.

You know the difference between wrong and right.
You know that you can't make an omlete without breaking some eggs.
You know the awnser.

Quote from: Farlander on Tue 07/09/2004 19:45:23
I thought that you were telling childish to the people who agree withÃ,  the "bellicisterant" ( ;DÃ,  ;DÃ,  ;D) way, not the terrorists... It's been really a relief. I am tired to hear that I suck because "I like war", that I am an idiot, or a preson without soul. As I said in this thread, I deffend military actions because I think they finally save lives. I remember that there was a very unpolite guy in Tripoli, putting bombs in planes and all that, who became very pasive when some bombs felt down in his palace...

Anyway, I keep my opinion that violence does not help.

To start a war, you need soldiers. Soldiers are people. People don't want to be in the army. The army has a communistic way of thinking. "You are a cogweel in the lean green fighting machine!". No induviduels, only orders. Not my cup of tea.

If you're not that good at school, and your carreer choises would be A) Garbage man B) Soldier C) Dealer.

I would choose A because the drugs scene can't be trusted, and being a soldier isn't a job but a way of life. You'll never be the same again.

I think you are more of a B person, though.

Quote from: Farlander on Tue 07/09/2004 19:45:23
I remember that there was a very unpolite guy in Tripoli, putting bombs in planes and all that, who became very pasive when some bombs felt down in his palace...

He stopped to keep his posission of power, not because he saw the light.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Tue 07/09/2004 22:11:28
If its me the person who you think wants to piss you, please excuse me, we started a negative spiral but it has to stop some day... If I have the possibility to attend some Mittens again I wouldn't like to go avoiding people and all that... You can post with no fear or any special care.

I don't really understand your stalement about the martial behaviour in the army on your topic... On the other side, I am a good student and I work in a hotel, far away of being a garbage man, a soldier or a dealer.

***(I just want to believe that you were not putting soldier or garbage man as something despective...)***

About Gadaffi, what matters is that he hasen't paid more guys to put bombs in planes.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Barcik on Tue 07/09/2004 22:42:33
Quote from: SSH on Tue 07/09/2004 21:03:46
Quote
But how does this directly relate with the Arab-Israeli conflict and what I said, SSH?

You said:
Quote from: Barcik@Work on Tue 07/09/2004 16:21:05
Wasn't my "own little skrimish" started when Arabs refused to accept the UN's diplomatic solution of the conflict back in 1947?

No, the current Israeli - Palestinian conflict dates back before then, during which time there were Isreali terrorist acts and ultimately Isreal gained statehood. My point was that this was a case were terrorism worked.

Personally, I regard the feuds between Arabs and Jews prior to the 1947 resolution as the roots of the current conflict, but no more. It had only begun to be a true 'skrimish' when the supervising British forces left.
And I still don't see what does Jewish terrorism against the British has to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. By the way, there were many more reasons than those few attacks that caused the British to leave the land of Israel.

QuoteArabs HAD accepted it, would Israel then have NOT gone on to occupy huge areas NOT par tof the 1947 resolution? I'm skeptical...

It's such a shady case of "what if" history, that it is hardly worth wasting words on. Anyway, I don't see why you are so sure the newly found State of Israel would rush into war when far outnumbered, among other disadvantages.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: jetxl on Wed 08/09/2004 09:17:31
Quote from: Farlander on Tue 07/09/2004 22:11:28
If its me the person who you think wants to piss you, please excuse me, we started a negative spiral but it has to stop some day... If I have the possibility to attend some Mittens again I wouldn't like to go avoiding people and all that... You can post with no fear or any special care.

I agree.

Quote from: Farlander on Tue 07/09/2004 22:11:28
I don't really understand your stalement about the martial behaviour in the army on your topic... On the other side, I am a good student and I work in a hotel, far away of being a garbage man, a soldier or a dealer.

It's easy to say "send some soldiers to attack the country from the terrorists" but those soldiers are people too. They don't want to fight or die if they don't have to. Kerry fought in Vietnam and afterwards he protested agains it.
I'm not saying that you are dumb or that everybody who joins the army is dumb.
But as we have seen in farenheit 9/11 it's the lower class who end up in the army.

I think that you would choose B) because you have more faith in the army.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Wed 08/09/2004 10:08:19
Nah... I had the possibility to attend to the military service as an Second-lieutenant  because I had the COU (former spanish pre-uni studies), which could have been cool, because the instructors are not officers, they're Sargents  ;D but I didn't want.

As for "the lower class ends in the army" I can't really tell, because I haven't been in the US for that long for making an idea (I wouldn't trust just in one film, though). In spin, that stalement is true, because the salary is very low... they had to admit people with little IC (I think 85, wasn't Forrest Gump who had 80?) because people just didn't want to join. They've been forced to admit south americans, which is weird...

But I don't know in America... I must say that the idea of marines I have is pretty good, because the only former marine I know is Yanksplit, a kind guy, smart with a lovely humor. Who is that guy (Who says 100X100 avatars are too big?) he is in the army, nowadays, and he seems to be pretty smart too.

The other former marine I know is Denny, a ficticial character from the Fox series "Las Vegas"... he is cool!  ;D
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: on Wed 08/09/2004 10:44:00
Quote from: jetxl on Wed 08/09/2004 09:17:31
But as we have seen in farenheit 9/11 it's the lower class who end up in the army.

It's not always for bed. Generally, the lower class consists of people of lesser intelectual abilities than the other ones. The military can often be the last option of a good career to a person with no education.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: jetxl on Wed 08/09/2004 13:23:25
Quote from: Farlander on Wed 08/09/2004 10:08:19
Who is that guy (Who says 100X100 avatars are too big?) he is in the army, nowadays, and he seems to be pretty smart too.

I still think Alynn would rather be home.
http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?topic=15146.0#msg185793

Quote from: Barcik@Work on Wed 08/09/2004 10:44:00
Quote from: jetxl on Wed 08/09/2004 09:17:31
But as we have seen in farenheit 9/11 it's the lower class who end up in the army.

It's not always for bed. Generally, the lower class consists of people of lesser intelectual abilities than the other ones. The military can often be the last option of a good career to a person with no education.

So poor people are "forced" into the army. That's just my point.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Barcik on Wed 08/09/2004 16:54:43
Forced? I am forced into the army, and I am not poor. And no poor person must go to the army. He can study, he can work, he can rest, and he can use it as a last resort if his abilities are limited. Forced? Otherwise you would say he has no opportunities because he is poor.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: jetxl on Thu 09/09/2004 11:09:24
Quote from: Barcik on Wed 08/09/2004 16:54:43
Forced? I am forced into the army, and I am not poor. And no poor person must go to the army. He can study, he can work, he can rest, and he can use it as a last resort if his abilities are limited. Forced? Otherwise you would say he has no opportunities because he is poor.

Being drafted is different. It's a crime in your coutry if you don't go.

Also, I know two guys who are in the army/navi.
One guy is an old classmate. He was better at school then me. Later on he dropped out of college because it was to hard for him. He didn't knew what to do so he joined the navi.
The other guy is the brother of a friend of mine. He isn't real smart, but bit of a jock. He want's to be the best in sports and all. He joined the army and thinks it's great.

Both people were not forced. They came from the working class and it was or the army/navi or unimployment line.

Poor people are like everbody else. The most people rather lie in bed then go to school, watch tv instead of doing homework and hang around with friends then go to work.
But if you need money to support yourself, and your folks didn't had the money to put you trough college...the army is a realistic option. You can only hope that there won't be any wars.
Title: Re: Beslan, North Ossetia...
Post by: Nacho on Thu 09/09/2004 12:21:26
In that case, the "force" that makes them to the army is quite admirable, specially having in mind that the other choice is being lazy asses .  :)