I've had these concerns and now they have been affirmed. Since I don't think that most of you know Russian, I will translate this text from www.readme.ru :
British students have a worse knowelge of English, than foreigners.
Brit students have a worse knowelge of English, than their auditory neighbors, who came to the Great Britain from other countries. That is the statement, a teacher of The Imperial college, situated in London, David Lamb has come up with. Lamb has analyzed the written works of students of the elder courses of such teaching institutions, like Oxford University and University of Cambridge and has found out that the best knowelge of the English language was demonstrated by students from Brunei, Singapoore and Russia, not by british students whose native language is English.
Works of the foregn students contain much less orthographic and punctuation mistakes, and they also have less incorrect word usages.
Oxford University and the University of Cambridge are ones of the most prestige universities and only the students who got the highest points in English on the graduation exams may enter them. Author of this research also said, that gaps in the knowelge of English were demonstrated not just by students who have lived all their lives in the Great Britain, but also by foreigners who have grown up in this country.
"Students graduate british schools, without getting any base knowelge of grammar and punctuation," - stated Lamb.
Lamb has decided to publish a list of the most typical mistakes, which he found in the written works of his own students. By doing this he decided to gain the attention of the british government to the situation in the school system. Here are some of the most typical mistakes in the works of british students: "effect" instead of "affect", "sun" instead of "son", "bean" instead of "been", and also "holy cheese" instead of "cheese with holes".
Innit tho.
Additionally: Perhaps I am an exception, but those examples in the last paragraph are just laughable. Perhaps "affect" is understandable; my girlfriend wrote that instead of "effect" only the other day (Her skills lie in maths), but HOLY CHEESE?!!
I know the usage of the "holy cheese", but it can not be used to describe a piece of cheese with many holes, can it?
Well, I took the SAT tests once, and while I totally aced the math one (being rather mathematically minded) I scored solidly above average on the English one as well, getting a higher score than most of the people I met in Chicago college. So this news does not really surprise me.
It's only natural, though. And it applies to all languages. You get lax in the usage of the language you're born with, because you use it every day, people know what you mean, you don't have to be accurate in order to make yourself understood, you can even use words out of context if you think will help you get your point across. Foreigners, on the other hand, have to worry about accuracy because the alternative is to risk not being understood.
***I am sure than they are better in English than me*** hehehe
You are right, Rui. I don' t know what' s happening but many educational systems are failing as for lenguaje teaching. Here in Spain I am being witness that many young people (and when I say that I am probably talking of more than 80%) have a lot of problems with putting "h" in the fron of the word (In Spanish, the "h" does not sound, so, it' s a grammatical problem, it should' t be like not putting the "h" in "house") or they confuss the "v" and "b" (they sound identycal) or the "g" with the "j" (ge, gi sound the same as je, ji, like the English he, hee)
But that' s not just a problem with the English... Young people here doesn' t know who Mao Tse Dong was, or Truman, or in which yeah the WWII ended or if Guevara was killed in Bolivia or in another place...Same with geography. I am a bit annoyed for that, but I am not sure if I can do much... :-\
I dunno Mao Tse Dong either. Was he a cousin of Mao Tse Dung's?
Sorry, just couldn't resist. ;D
Cheese with holes is called 'holey cheese' isn't it?
I have to agree about English not being taught properly in schools. I've been taught how to analyse fiction, non-fiction and poetry but not where to use a semicolon or a hyphon, and these are the things people use every day. Sure, reading deeply into text and finding hidden meanings has its uses, but I don't find it as important as putting a sentence together properly.
Regarding mistakes, I can't stand it when people put apostrophes into plural's.
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sun 23/09/2007 11:41:48
I dunno Mao Tse Dong either. Was he a cousin of Mao Tse Dung's?
And were they both related to Mao Zedong aka Mao Tse-tung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Tse_Tung)?
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sun 23/09/2007 11:41:48
Sorry, just couldn't resist. ;D
I could, but chose not to. ;)
Tube, my dear tube, it was a pun. A very bad pun. Dung means manure means s**t.
Seems to be a bit of an excuse for some crap puns.
I am a student, and I don't know anyone who would make those mistakes, simply because they aren't just spelling mistakes, they actually carry meaning, for most people, it would be like writing "bee" instead of "be". They look fairly similar, but have very clear differences.
I don't know where this research came from, but I'm fairly certain it's rubbish.
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sun 23/09/2007 11:41:48
I dunno Mao Tse Dong either. Was he a cousin of Mao Tse Dung's?
Sorry, just couldn't resist. ;D
Sorry, but as happens with arabian when translated into another languaje, some of the songs in Chinese can be translated into other languajes with some king of liberty, for instance, Mohammed can be Muhammad, or Mahoma or Mojamed... Or Mao Tse Dong, which can me Mao Zedong, Mao Tse-Tung... Noboby was wrong, actually.
Bleh. I just wanted to make a joke and everyone's suddenly's either a literary critic or taking it seriously.
Your jokes are too difficult for me, I'd never guesses "dung" was a way to say poo. ^_^
This is definitely true. Most British kids these days don't know "their" from "they're" or "there", which is quite sad ... but then you realise, does it actually matter? If people can make themselves understood, does it matter if they are gramatically correct or not?
Quote from: Pumaman on Sun 23/09/2007 13:33:07
This is definitely true. Most British kids these days don't know "their" from "they're" or "there", which is quite sad ... but then you realise, does it actually matter? If people can make themselves understood, does it matter if they are gramatically correct or not?
And why do you think grammatic exist? To determite, how are the words spelled and how are the punctuation signs placed: To distinguish the thing people mean from the thing, they don't mean, but which also sounds similar!
Please don't shut this site down...
News from Russian site, criticism-related one and about Brits.
What's wrong here? Where have I seen this before?
Lionmonkey, you live in Riga, yes? Did you think before making this thread, at all?
Aren't we, Balts, under never-ending propaganda war every day? Doesn't Russian press throw crap like this at us in a daily basis? Releasing news that rarely are news, but still sound bad and in long term, finally brainwashes their people into thinking we're pure evil?
Now, why should average russian wake up in the morning, and read about how badly British know grammar before starting his day? Does this sound like news, entertainment, or rather like another invisible sting of negativity towards West this russian gets every day from his beloved government?
Quote from: Pumaman on Sun 23/09/2007 13:33:07
If people can make themselves understood, does it matter if they are gramatically correct or not?
Yes, because encouraging sloth and sloppiness in the Future of the Nation is never a good idea.
Quote from: InCreator on Sun 23/09/2007 14:11:58
News from Russian site, criticism-related one and about Brits.
What's wrong here? Where have I seen this before?
Lionmonkey, you live in Riga, yes? Did you think before making this thread, at all?
Aren't we, Balts, under never-ending propaganda war every day? Doesn't Russian press throw crap like this at us in a daily basis? Releasing news that rarely are news, but still sound bad and in long term, finally brainwashes their people into thinking we're pure evil?
Now, why should average russian wake up in the morning, and read about how badly British know grammar before starting his day? Does this sound like news, entertainment, or rather like another invisible sting of negativity towards West this russian gets every day from his beloved government?
1) I am a citizen of Latvia, however, my mother language is Russian. If you know about this as much as you think you do, you should understand,
2)That site, where I found this got this information from BBC. Communism and everything about it is dead. Russians now hate it even more than Americans. Let everyone be equal? Sheesh, it gives me heebie-jeebies.
3) The reason, I've posted it is because these news show us, or more like Great Britain citizen, that there IS a problem. And this is really a BIG problem, which should be corrected. Don't let your nation be ashamed, do something about this!
I think that grammar knowledge and not making mistakes is important only to some extent. I hate people making mistakes and trust me, here in Slovakia, the grammar knowledge is horrible by my classmates. Things like piramids (in slovak PyramÃdy) are common.
It is important indeed, but only to some extent. I, however, do not like to make mistakes since I am planning to be Russian - English - Slovak translator. If you are not translator, writer or anything like that, mistakes does not matter as much. But it is stupid to make them.
Excuse me if I am not using apostrophes, I just completed a 10-finger writing course, and I dont have apostrophe on my slovak keyboard :-[
It's not just grammar that's a problem these days, though. Employers are complaining that British kids are lazier and stupider than ever before, and a large proportion of people leaving school are not able to fit into a working environment because they don't have the skills to do so, for example thinking that's it's perfectly ok to write a report in txt-speak.
The future of society is doomed .... doomed, I tells ya.
Quote from: Lionmonkey on Sun 23/09/2007 09:56:29
I know the usage of the "holy cheese",
Cheeses of Nazareth?
As much as I hate text-speak, I can understand kids becoming used to using it to the extent that they instinctively use it rather than "proper" English. At least they are writing to each other, I suppose - ten years back, before the internets and the horrible horrible mobile phones, how often do you think the average person would have written anything much after leaving school?
That said, though, I've a pretty heavy northern English accent, and tend towards saying things ungrammatically - "me" instead of my, "aye" instead of yes, "gan" instead of go and such, but I wouldn't write that way. It just wouldn't be right. :)
And now I have forgotten what I was saying in the first place.
Somehow I am not surprised at all that I see this. Brits are turning more and more americans these days, ever since the supermarket culture evolved, bringing those fat puppet kids along with. Problem of rich societies. Some friends of mine who have moved to england have even said that there aren't even any beautiful women out there...
This is so obvious that I shouldn't have to point it out, but foreign students who are doing essay-heavy courses at Oxford and Cambridge are not your average foreigners. They have been selected specifically for excellence in English. This finding, even if true, certainly does not show that foreigners speak better English than Englishmen in general. I think the posts in this thread demonstrate that that claim would be false.
As a foreigner with good knowledge of English, I think there are a few factors that make people like me less likely to make certain mistakes. For one thing, we're more careful, because we can't rely on "gut feeling" to tell us what's correct and what's incorrect. Lacking intuition, we have been forced to learn the technical rules, and to learn them well. And because of all the work it has taken to achieve our current level of skill (and because we're conscious of our deficiencies), we don't like to make mistakes, and perhaps try harder to avoid them than native speakers. And finally, being fluent in another language can sometimes provide a sanity check on dubious English constructions. For instance, I don't think you would see many foreigners using the despicable *"would of" instead of "would've" or "would have," because the sounds that are similar in English are very different in other languages.
It should also be pointed out that even if foreigners do better at avoiding basic errors in writing assignments, that doesn't mean we are better at writing good English, which takes a much more subtle feel for the language, much less at speaking it. Even having used English primarily since high school, and having lived in the UK and US for the last seven years, I know I'm not as fluent in the language as a native speaker.
Quote from: radiowaves on Sun 23/09/2007 16:11:31
Some friends of mine who have moved to england have even said that there aren't even any beautiful women out there...
Hell, this is a coincidence. My class was in England for two weeks (I was ill) and they said the exact thing to me! I know that 2 weeks are not enough to make a conclusion, but, anyway.... It must be partly true, I am hearing it from time to time...
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sun 23/09/2007 12:23:00
Tube, my dear tube, it was a pun. A very bad pun. Dung means manure means s**t.
I know what it means, dear Rui. I was just venting the frustration of having to work my ass off on a Sunday (again) by being a pedantic ass.
Quote from: Pumaman on Sun 23/09/2007 15:54:47
It's not just grammar that's a problem these days, though. Employers are complaining that British kids are lazier and stupider than ever before, and a large proportion of people leaving school are not able to fit into a working environment because they don't have the skills to do so, for example thinking that's it's perfectly ok to write a report in txt-speak.
The future of society is doomed .... doomed, I tells ya.
There's a documentary about this called "Idiocracy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAYnc_-ddlw)." You should give it a watch if you can find it, it's an American film.
Waz teh ding? No troblem, no troblem tall. Moonikay ow 1 fleaz, freep, sceptical doz hu fee day haz doo doo props, eh? No troblem, freeps. Allzgud.
Quote from: Lionmonkey on Sun 23/09/2007 09:45:31
and also "holy cheese" instead of "cheese with holes".
Well, what if said cheese actually was holy?
It's far better to have an holy cheese than holy holes..
QuoteDon't let your nation be ashamed, do something about this!
If this was also response to my post, you made a little mistake. Check my profile to clarify: I'm Estonian.
Anyway, these
filthy imperialist scum American spies should know best:
According to CIA factbook, literacy stats in
age 15 and over can read and write
In Latvia, it's 99.7%
United Kingdom, 99%
Russia, 99.4%
(not sure about dates, but no one actually is)
So, seems that Russians are more literate than people on the islands :D
Of course, this doesn't reflect grammar usage or correctness.
Anyway, you can find bad grammar these days about anywhere.
People at my work have trouble enough to even write a resignation or that paper where you ask for vacation (how it's called in English?). But I wouldn't really blame internet and IM lingo for this, back in days, kids were chasing ball during free time. Now they're sitting behind monitors and reading & writing in instant messengers and forums.
How come this hasn't helped to improve grammar and reading overall?
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 23/09/2007 20:45:27
Waz teh ding? No troblem, no troblem tall. Moonikay ow 1 fleaz, freep, sceptical doz hu fee day haz doo doo props, eh? No troblem, freeps. Allzgud.
MY EYES! MY EYES! :o :'(
I would want to add something to this topic;
A few weeks ago, I was attending an express English course in order to skip the preperation class (and to pass the exam, firstly) in university [offtopic](I've passed the exam successfully, by the way. When I finish writing this post, I will get outside home in order to catch the bus that will take me to my first lesson in the engineery) [/offtopic]
I had a friend there whose family was quite wealthy and had lived in London for many years. He could communicate with British people easily, as if he was one of them (at least it is what he told me, I don't think he was lying).
But his grammer and language skills were awful. He was always making mistakes in grammer exercises (especially tense exercises, he was asking me how to do somethings) and he knew some words wrong (for example; writing "unemployment" as "unployment").
My point is...
Well, I am about to miss the schoolbus!
Quote from: Pumaman on Sun 23/09/2007 13:33:07This is definitely true. Most British kids these days don't know "their" from "they're" or "there", which is quite sad ... but then you realise, does it actually matter? If people can make themselves understood, does it matter if they are gramatically correct or not?
Wait a second...you're telling me these kids over
there don't know the difference between
their "their"s,
their "there"s, and
their "they're"s and
they're mixing them all up? And
you're telling me that in
your opinion this is okay?
Heh...that'd screw 'em up.
As Santa road rode upon his slay sleigh
Delivering toys along the weigh way
To all the girls and all the boys
Who's Whose letters brought to him much joy
He shouted loud, he shouted clear,
"Eye'll I'll be back this thyme time next year.
So to all you brats who couldn't spell:
You'd better learn...or go to Hell."
Quote from: Lionmonkey on Sun 23/09/2007 09:45:31
"sun" instead of "son"
Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing (and am not interested to), but I'm too tempted to say, that the world becomes better if we go on replacing all occurrences of "son" with "sun".
Sun of the beach, everyone. :=
The biggest difference, comes from the understanding of the written, and verbal word.
If I walked up to you and said, "Your the greatest." in your mind, nothing was wrong with that sentence. However, it's obviously wrong when written out.
Language is constantly evolving, new words are added into a persons daily vocabulary, and meanings are often changed over time.
As an example. I give you a word, this word is "geek". Imagine what this word means in your minds eye.
Now if you aren't visualizing a circus performer, whose acts usually consist of biting heads of off live animals, then you don't know what a geek is "officially".
Probably, and in all honesty, my biggest issue (besides spelling, which to be honest, comes mostly from learning to read phonetically, so if I don't know how to spell something, I tend to spell it how it sounds to me, which ends up being wrong much of the time) is ending sentences with a preposition.
However, as CJ already said, at the end of the day, if I say something, and you understand what I meant by what I said (or wrote), then communication has succeeded, and that is the sole purpose of language, for communication. However, when it comes to the written word, I notice bad spelling way before I'll notice bad grammar.
Oh and Snarky... It's not writing good english, it's writing english well. :P
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 23/09/2007 16:50:44
This is so obvious that I shouldn't have to point it out, but foreign students who are doing essay-heavy courses at Oxford and Cambridge are not your average foreigners. They have been selected specifically for excellence in English. This finding, even if true, certainly does not show that foreigners speak better English than Englishmen in general. I think the posts in this thread demonstrate that that claim would be false.
As a foreigner with good knowledge of English, I think there are a few factors that make people like me less likely to make certain mistakes. For one thing, we're more careful, because we can't rely on "gut feeling" to tell us what's correct and what's incorrect. Lacking intuition, we have been forced to learn the technical rules, and to learn them well. And because of all the work it has taken to achieve our current level of skill (and because we're conscious of our deficiencies), we don't like to make mistakes, and perhaps try harder to avoid them than native speakers. And finally, being fluent in another language can sometimes provide a sanity check on dubious English constructions. For instance, I don't think you would see many foreigners using the despicable *"would of" instead of "would've" or "would have," because the sounds that are similar in English are very different in other languages.
It should also be pointed out that even if foreigners do better at avoiding basic errors in writing assignments, that doesn't mean we are better at writing good English, which takes a much more subtle feel for the language, much less at speaking it. Even having used English primarily since high school, and having lived in the UK and US for the last seven years, I know I'm not as fluent in the language as a native speaker.
You can develop this gut feeling with a foregn language too, if you study it long enough. At least I did.
Isn't this all simply a reflection of the fact that English has more homophones than most other languages?
U callin m3 GAY?!
Quote from: Lionmonkey on Mon 24/09/2007 13:01:48
You can develop this gut feeling with a foregn language too, if you study it long enough. At least I did.
Sure. You can, to an extent. But it's never going to be as reliable as the sense you have for your first language. And no offense, but your English is riddled with errors. :-\