Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

[Erenan]

Well, I did say "probably."

[Babar]

I don't think it's Erenan who invented a 'time travelling God'. Apologies for launching into this futile theological discussion, but if God exists at all, and is omnipotent and omniscient (infact any one of the omnis. I assume having one would automatically mean having all), then God would also be omnipresent. God didn't 'start' at some point in time, then decide "I'll make the universe" then decide "I'll Ã, create man". God would have to have always been there. It doesn't matter if it's even 600 billion years since the beginning of the universe, and only 20 for the existence of humanity. God isn't controlled by time. This doesn't mean that God is some sort of time traveller who does work in one point in history, and then moves to another point to do other work. God is everywhere, all the time.

If out of the 46 50,000,000 years of the universe that you mention, we've only existed for 1 million (I am somewhat unsure where you got these numbers from), does that make us any less important? I'm sorry, but for all the billions of years the universe will ever exist, I believe the most important for me would be the few decades I'll be in it. For me, at least, the entire 46 50,000,000 years leading up to now were in preparation of my existence.

This, of course, is assuming what I'm assuming: that for God to be God, He'd have to be one (and all) of the omni...'s. Anyhoo, there is plenty of evidence for Zeus, and the way you said that "Everyone agrees that he doesn't exist", I thought you had something definitive to the contrary.

[MrColossal]

For me, at least, the entire 46 50,000,000 years leading up to now were in preparation of my existence.

Better get to work on a kickass game and make it all worth while then!

[Nacho]

That (It is omnipresent during all the time) implies that he is also in the future... Therefore, the future is written, therefore, this God is not the Paladdin of the free will that the religion books talk about. As you can see, this God does not support a medium analysis.

I think that my point is quite clear... So, unless further appealing posts (I am not saying that your posts are not interesant or something, but I think my point is quite clear and something GREAT should be posted for making me take the effort to reply...) I think I am not going to reply. ^_^.

[Raggit]

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[SilverWizard_OTF]

The existence of God is a matter that can't be answered with logic (or at least, only with logic). I will speak only as an Orthodox Christian: God is mainly an "experience", not something like mathematics, where you can proove something. If we have two philosophers, one who is an atheist and one who believes to a Higher Supernatural Entity and they have a dialog with the topic "Does God exist?" they will start an argument that won't have an end!
If someone is conviced that God exists only from a "blah, blah" conversation, then he should be worried, because the next time another better "rhetorician" will be found to persuade him from the opposite.
And one personal opinion: I think that's the way that the whole subject works, because if God gives us clear signs of his existence, then there wouldn't be a freedom to our choice. So, we have to search to find True God. And if we start this journey, then God will help us to reach to the truth. But if i choose to be an atheist, then again i will be free to follow this direction.
Someone might claim this: True freedom is when human has the chance to live as he would like to live. If only God of Orthodox Christians exist, then we are "obligated" to follow a specific direction. But if e.g. New Age--Spiritualism teaches the right things, then it's very simple, i can "create" or find, whatever, a God as i like to be.
Well, in this question, i have to answer this (answer is subjective of course): If there is a Higher Entity/God, then this Entiry knows better, much better for us what's the true way that leads to the true hapiness. In life sometimes there is not only black and white, but grey too. However, if God exists, then he must be the Absolute White. So, he only shows the Absolutely Riht and Light Way which leads to the True and Real Hapiness. This means that God shouldn't be represented to humanity with different forms and philosphys and whatever. He will have ONLY ONE "lifestyle" to "suggest".

I wrote all these to compare them with theories that support what Spiritualism/New Age believes about true God (all Gods lead to the same Higher Entity) . And also White Magic, at leats the White Magic that it is supported by Spiritualism, claims that regain its power mainly from this Higher Entity. So i think that if someone follows Spiritualism then he might follow also White Magic, which is in many cases supported, as i said before, by New Age theories. And here comes the subject of this topic: Christianity versus White Magic.
EagerMind, let me explain this:
   -I am a Christian, and thus believe that Christianity is good.
   - White Magic appears to be in conflict with Christianity {in matters that have to do with faith.}
   So, it is not possible to believe both in Christianity and in White Magic, can  i? How can i believe that i can have supernatural powers without Jesus and ONLY Jesus "support" and at the same time say "I am Christian", when Christianity says something like this: Only Jesus can give supernatural powers.


   {- Therefore, White Magic must actually be a "dark force"}   
IF White Magic says "Using White Magic you can achieve supernatural powers" then, according to the above that i said, White Magic, according to my beliefs, is a wrong theory and IF i see a White Magician e.g. creates water to the name of a Spiritual Entity, i will say "that is evil". But all these IF a have done research and i am sure that e.g. Christianity express my heart and i think it's true and White Magic not. And such research i have done.

Is there any Christian that is at the same time White Magician? And if there is, could he give us his opinion about all these?

[Sylvr]

Good show, SilverWizard!

[Becky]

If there is a Higher Entity/God, then this Entiry knows better, much better for us what's the true way that leads to the true hapiness. In life sometimes there is not only black and white, but grey too. However, if God exists, then he must be the Absolute White. So, he only shows the Absolutely Riht and Light Way which leads to the True and Real Hapiness.

You must be an incredible optimist to believe that a higher entity must automatically be the "Absolute White"!

Edit: Daz washing powder claims it cleans "whiter-than-white".  Does this mean it's better than a god?

[SilverWizard_OTF]

Yes, i believe that this Higher Entity is The Absolute White, because if it is not, then it's something that makes moral mistakes, so it should not be considered as God.

SilverTrumpet, what do you mean by "Good show"? My english is not so good, and i don't know what this expression means

[Becky]

Yes, i believe that this Higher Entity is The Absolute White, because if it is not, then it's something that makes moral mistakes, so it should not be considered as God.

But where do you get your morality from?  Doesn't god/God/gods dictate it to you in the first place?  Isn't it drawn from holy texts or texts "inspired" by the word of the god/God/gods?  How can you, without referring to religious texts, be certain that this higher entity is "absolute white" or perfectly moral?

To me, that requires just too much of a leap of faith to accept that a higher being is "good" because text apparently inspired by the higher being say so.  I'd rather form my own independant morals, fully knowing that I am an imperfect human being, than trust a higher entity that I have no evidence that exists because it says so

[Sylvr]

SilverTrumpet, what do you mean by "Good show"?

Sorry, it pretty much means 'good job', or in this case, 'I agree with you". Do you understand now? 

[SilverWizard_OTF]

But where do you get your morality from?Ã,  Doesn't god/God/gods dictate it to you in the first place?Ã,  Isn't it drawn from holy texts or texts "inspired" by the word of the god/God/gods?Ã,  How can you, without referring to religious texts, be certain that this higher entity is "absolute white" or perfectly moral?

Becky, my point is exactly that: If God exists, i agree with you that He will define morality. But i believe that God is an Entity which is full of love and wisdom. That's personal believe of course (and Christianity's believe also) . So, if God isn't The Absolute White and The Absolute Wisdom, he will make moral mistakes, because their actions will conflict with his teachings, which say that God is full of love, full of wisdom, The Truth, The Pure Holy Light e.t.c. So God is The Absolute Love. So, he is The Abolute White. Of course to axcept someone these, he has firstly to axcept that Love=White
You form your own moral beliefs, such i also do. I say "I am a Christian" but the truth is that almost every man on this earth (maybe except Monks and Holy humans) is mostly an agnostic. I am an agnostic who has searched Christianity, and realised that untill now this religion expresses myself to many matters. Some things you hear them for first time, and you say "these are stupid" but if you search deeper, you will realise that these are the right way. I won't do what many Spiritualists do, i mean to take some things that i like from e.g. Christianity and some things from e.g. Hinduism. If i axcept Christianity, i will axcept all of its teachings. If i discover that calling spirits using with the help of white magic is a healthy activity, then i will forget the Triadic God.
I didn't say that if i axcept with all my heart beyond any doubtness Christianity, that i will be a monk. Or that i will have the will to follow every suggestions, guidelines and advices that God gave us. But when you say "i form my own morality", isn't better to search and find what Higher Entity teaches; It's much better to know this and then maybe try to follow this path, doing might some zick-zack during the path At least you won't be trapped by lies or by arts that are evil. Now you will ask me "how can i find the true religion". Personally i try to fully understand what a religion says and then compare it with my heart's true feelings. I make that and for Christianity and up to now i don't face any contradiction ot problem.
So, once again this kind of quest leads me to this: Christianity can't except that we can handle supernatural forces by our own, or to talk with spiritual entities by our own, because God, as Absolute White, give us of course freedom (someone would say "but freedom for me means to be able to talk with angels without having to use let's say evil tools like ouija board") but this doesn't mean that He will support us if we do something that won't be for our good. God doesn't find good to talk with spirits and so He will not support it.
Now, that this matter of freedom is i think cleared and after some thought, there is a conclusion: Someone can't be a Christian and a White Mage at the same time. Untill now Christianity covers me and i have reasons to suspect that White Magic is not so white as it says it is. Anyway, if someone here practises White Magic, he can tell us his experiences.

A, and SilverTrumpet, yes now i got what you meaned by "Good Show" God/Higher Entity/Nature/Physical Laws bless you

[Nacho]

I have some concerns... If it's a proof of the existence of God that it does not give real evidences of its existence... Why the hell it gives "little" evidences? Is it testing the faith of the fidels giving just small proofs, and, therefore, it is going to condemn the ones who do not believe in him? That brings me some questions...

If there is an aborigen in the middle of Australia who has never heard of God but he behaves correctly and following all the rules of morality... Is he going to be condemned behause he does not believe?

This is the God full of love of wisdom?

I am going to put it even more complicated... What happens with someone who follows the rules of morality, and he is atheistic? He has heard of God... He has not the excuse the aborigen has... Is he going to be condemned? Mmmm... This sounds a little bit like blackmail to me...

If the opposite happens, and God allows in heaven the ones who behave propperly, despicing if they believe or not... Where is the point of believing?!?

[Babar]

Heheh...don't worry about me making a kick-ass game, MrColossal. That's the least of what's going to happen!

About the white magic thing, Silver wizard, I don't know...what would you call what Moses did (with the snakes, and the Red Sea, etc.)?

Nacho, about the free will thing...well, without getting into another side-debate, I really don't see how God's fore-knowledge of what's going to happen negates free will. God knows. We do not.

Now about the 3rd sub-branch of the debate, ethics, it's pretty obvious that there are many athiests with very high moral values, and many God-believers with very little morality. Once again, if God is God, then God is the God of all things, not just believers. It would be silly to think that He only takes care of people who believe. Personally, I believe "The right thing to do" is something well ingrained into humans.

The whole "fellow who knew nothing about God but lived properly all his life" is pretty simple to me. I mean, just be logical and think about it. If he knew nothing about God, he can't really be at blame, can he? About the other guy, I don't know...it all depends on him and his own reasons. I believe that God rewards people who don't believe in Him on Earth. Sort of like how karma works.

[Becky]

Just a quick note:

But when you say "i form my own morality", isn't better to search and find what Higher Entity teaches; It's much better to know this and then maybe try to follow this path, doing might some zick-zack during the path At least you won't be trapped by lies or by arts that are evil.

Well, uh, you're assuming I -haven't- looked at what various other religions say that their God/gods say.  You're also still assuming that all/any higher entities MUST be pure 100% good, as you define it, because other things are lies or arts that are evil.

I don't believe in a good/evil dichotomy.  Some things have mostly positive effects, some have mostly negative effects, but I don't believe you can label something as wholly "evil" or wholly "good".  Which is...really where I think this "white magic = NOT CHRISTIAN = BLACK MAGIC EVIL!!!" thing just falls down and appears stupid.

[Queen Kara]

Sad how some people view "magic" and such.
I agree that if they are using it only to make money and such , they are most likely frauds that don't deserve the money they get from their exploitation. It's the frauds and the people who are quick to flag everything different as evil that keeps people down over things they shouldn't be down about.

To be down on all "magic" and those who do / use it is pretty upsetting.
I have tried "psi balls" sometimes but haven't mastered it yet since I'm a newbie.
A hardcore skeptic will always be skeptical unless something huge happens them to change their mind. I consider myself a bit of a skeptic but I'm also a believer in many things and I want to believe alot of things.

To say all "white magic" and such is actually Black magic is like saying a White robe is actually Black. Wrong! People wouldn't call it "White" if it was "Black". Although I hate it when people equate White with Good and Black with Evil so much , if you're healing somebody or yourself...this is a good thing not an evil thing....regardless of how you do it...whether through a spell or through special lotion and bandages. If you want to protect your family / yourself through a ritual or spell , how can this be a bad thing? Just because you are using an unconventional method? Pshaw!
Even if you're using "dark" energies ( for some people it is easier to imagine darkness / a "Black light" rather than a White one or a different color entirely... ) , if you don't misuse them then you are doing good. Plus there should be balance in all things.
I prefer the night over the day and I prefer the moon
over the sun but I try to keep myself and things balanced.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

Nachos, i would apreciate if you create a topic in which you will post your doubts about Christianity. It would be my honor to participate. However, if you don't desire that, i won't have any other argument for this matter, i will answer to your critisism because i will connect my opinions with an asnwer that will set questions also for this topic's proper subject: "Christianity versus White Magic".

First of all, i didn't say it's a proof. I said that God respects our freedom to make choices. Don't you think it would be a bit against freedom to reveal Himself to us? Because then we would be "forced" to obey him (possibly because of fear) even if we don't, how can i say, "axcept" Him. God wants our relationship with Him to be based on true love and friendship. Jesus didn't make miracles in front of His enemies, to avoid exactly that thing. If their enemies had good intentions, then i suppose Jesus would make miracles to them or He would explain everything they couldn't understand, as He did with Saint Paul, who was an enemy of Christianity, but he had good intentions and he was not acting under personal benefits (as Jesus' enemies) but under his good intention to do the right but the right that he thought it was the right  .

Now, i would like to talk about punishment. Many (almost all) Atheists say "Is it a good God He who will allow people to go to Hell e.t.c.". You Nachos talked about Aborigines and atheists who are moral and about the way that God will judge them. However, it was not proper to say that Christianity tells that, since Christianity DOES NOT tell that! Christians believe that NO ONE knows how God will judge people. NO ONE said that because someone tells that he is Christian, he will be automatically saved, or that a canibal who hasn't heard about Jesus, will be judged the way that will be judged someone who had the chance to be moral but he wasn't (e.g. some wealth people). NO ONE knows how God will judge people. So, stop saying "it is going to condemn the ones who do not believe in him" because it's a lie.

Now, about Hell something. Hell it is not a place where people are burning into fire! But when God reveals himself after Revelation, then these people which have chosen by free will to do terrible things, such as killing people to gain money e.t.c. they will blame theirselves because they have chosen to dismiss God's goods (love, compasion, friendship, hapiness e.t.c.) and so they will suffer with the thought that they have lost these things which bring the true hapiness. So they will create Hell by themselves. God does not create any Hell. Humans create Hell or Paradise for themselves.

If an Atheist has heard about God and he is moral, which means he lives the Heaven from the earth already (he feels love, hapiness e.t.c.), well his fate is not so different from the fate of a Christian, because as i said before, Christianity says that NO ONE knows how God will judge people and with what measures. You say, if there is the same to be a moral atheist and christian, then why to believe, well, it obviously has difference. Its difference is that if you believe, then you feel that you have a Higher Source that see your good action and does not leave evil to hurt you. Also, i suppose someone feels hapier when he knows that life continues after death. Then nothing is pointless that you do in this world. So, one factor for to believe is our physical and spiritual health. They are more reasons, more important, but well i suppose you can think many of them I will say also antother one: Morality is a meaning very unstable. It is not bad to have a teaching to guide you, when you won't know how to act to a situation. Ok, i assume that God exists now, but for to answer to your question. It is much easier to take "bad" way if you don't believe, isn't it? Because if God does not exist, EVERYTHING are allowd, there is not defined good and wrong, no one can define proper and unproper.

So, now about White Magic, which troubles me, i don't think that the idea of calling supernatural powers is healthy. It looks like a harry-poter way of life, in which easy people solve their problems. Having a God like Jesus to believe, means act, take actions, but knowing that someone Higher is watching you and gives strength when you will indeed need it. Also, the idea of revival that Spiritualism believes is not healthy for me, because it represents soul like a cold box, which fills and empties with feelings from time to time. The idea of having an end the life-circle means that our emotions and action are not pointless and every moment of our life is extra important.
White Magic teaches love and respect, but how, with supernatural powers; When i was searching all this magic stuff, i thought: Hey, do i really want supernatural powers? Casting spell and so on? What true is it possible to find to rituals to the name of an unknown power? Queen Kara, it would be nice if you post your experiences and why did you decide to learn White Magic.


Babar, what Moses did is not White Magic. He got his strength by God, he alone has not any supernatural power, so we can't call him "a Wizard". God chose this time to act Moses, if Moses wanted to do that by himself, he wouldn't be able to do this. Miracle is not equal to White Magic. When people asked a Saint "are you a Mage;" he answered negative. I don't remember what exactly answer he gave, but it was something like "No, i am just an instrument (with the good meaning) of God, who spares love to all people"

Queen Kara, something else:
"It's the frauds and the people who are quick to flag everything different as evil that keeps people down over things they shouldn't be down about." I hope you don't tell this from me also. Because, as i've said many times, i have done many many research and i troubled my mind a lot with all this Meditation Supernatural Spell stuff. I just ended to the conclusion that Christianity is higher than them, that doesn't mean that i am fraud.
"I consider myself a bit of a skeptic but I'm also a believer in many things and I want to believe alot of things." Of course that's what every man should do. But i won't say that i believe in everything, when i don't, so to don't call me "close-mind". Open-mind doesn't mean to believe in everything, but to don't hurry to dismiss anything. I don't completely dismiss Magic, that's why i posted this Topic, to discuss this subject
" Although I hate it when people equate White with Good and Black with Evil so much , if you're healing somebody or yourself...this is a good thing not an evil thing....regardless of how you do it...whether through a spell or through special lotion and bandages. If you want to protect your family / yourself through a ritual or spell , how can this be a bad thing? Just because you are using an unconventional method? Pshaw!
Even if you're using "dark" energies ( for some people it is easier to imagine darkness / a "Black light" rather than a White one or a different color entirely... ) , if you don't misuse them then you are doing good". Come on now, i used White to sumbolize Good, but there's no need to be upset for that Also, of course the method might be not healthy! If someone e.g. bothers your sister and to prevent this you shoot that guy and you kill him, this method released your sister from this bothering, but is it truly the right and healthier way to solve this problem? Of course method matters.
"Plus there should be balance in all things." My friend, to return to the original subject of this topic, do you think that all things can be balanced? Can someone being Christian and White Mage at the same time? Are you? And if yes, i would like very much to explain me how, since God dismiss any form of magic.
I am not close-mind my friend, i used to LOVE all these supernatural lifestyles. But i think using a harry-potter style to change our environment and our selves it won't have any good results. If you disagree, i would like to hear your opinion, without fanaticism.

[Renal Shutdown]

Right, this is a subject that always touches a nerve with me, and to be honest, after the first page, I couldn't be bothered reading anymore, so here goes..

Christianity is the same as White Magic/Wicca.

It provides a sense of community and hope for the people that need it.  Neither have any real proof one way or another.  If you truely believe that Christianity's the right path, and that makes you feel better, then fine, go with it.  Same applies to the Witches.  Since Christianity is just a belief, what right do you have to tell someone of another faith that they're wrong?

Islam is more believable than Christianity.  Though, the Christians refuse to accept that.  They believe what they've been told.  More than likely, you believe in Jesus and whatnot, because 1. You were brought up that way.  Or, 2. You had a time in your life where you needed some kind of guidance, because you couldn't figure things out for yourself.

If God truely does love everyone, then surely he'd let people decide for themselves.  Man creates religions so that people have something to believe in, and take all the hardship out of finding out for themselves.  In return, they usually just want some kind of donation or something.  (Not counting fundamentalists, who are just too angry to read between the lines).



If White Magic is just there, because of the Dark Lord, where does the Dark Lord come from?  God is everything and everywhere.  Ergo, God is the Dark Lord.  We are all part of God, but when we die in sin, we go to hell.  Ergo, when we go to hell, part of God dies.  God isn't infalliable.  God is slowly dying, one sinner at a time.

From that, I can see that either:
1. God doesn't exist.  ..Or..
2. God is trying to save his own ass.  Which in turn, stops him being a God, since he's no longer mortal, therefore GOTO 1.



If you're going to judge someone else's belief system, don't judge it from a different belief system.  Judge it with an open mind, where nothing is concrete and everything is possible.



On a side note, religion is based on fear and greed.  Which one are you?  Fear of hell or greed for an afterlife?

[Nacho]

So, can I reply here or not? Because I am not going to start another thread...

[SilverWizard_OTF]

I express only my opinion and i don't blame anyone's faith. If you were a more careful reader, you would see that i write: "I am not close-mind my friend, i used to LOVE all these supernatural lifestyles." and everywhere that i say something like "i don't think that is healthy", i also say the words "I,in my opinion e.t.c.", these are what I think and what I would like to discuss about. I would like very much to know your point of view and how do you use magic e.t.c. I want to hear your opinion and compare it with the thoughts i did when i was searching about Magic and Spiritualism.

"If you're going to judge someone else's belief system, don't judge it from a different belief system"  Topic's title is "Christianity versus White Magic", which means White Mages and Christians gather here and tell their opinion about the other "side" with respect and with no fanaticism. Personally i feel sad with the idea that magic exists, and i don't think it's so bad to ask for you to tell me why you don't feel bad and how do you use magic to your life, to what exactly you believe, why, how did it came e.t.c.

"what right do you have to tell someone of another faith that they're wrong?" I have good intentions which are not to change your faith of course, but to realise what is really magic and what does it really mean for a White Mage. I don't see anything wrong to tell "Hey, IN MY OPINION magic is wrong", because this is only my opinion, and posting this means that i am not yet sure that magic or at least all forms of magic are eveil or lie or wrong.

The other things about God and Dark Lord you say are completely personal thoughts. I have the right to ask myself  "daemons are behind every communication with the dead?" and also to express my doubts to the others. Through a dialog without fanaticism and anger we can achieve a lot, i guess.

Nachos, i suppose you are free to post You know i prefer this conversation to be kept to the subject i defined when i created this topic, but if you post, i will answer to you.