Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

[Nacho]

Ok... Then my question basically concerns about the "Nobody knows how God judges"... If we can't know something so basical about It (*) why must we behave in some or other way having It in mind?

I mean... You recognise you can't know how It thinks... Why do you assume it is not an entity who made the Universe, and then, at some point, it turned completely mad, a little naughty devil, and now it wants us to go killing people? How can deny that? You can' t. You must recognise that you know nothing about it.

The main issue in the oldest Gospel (Saint Thomas. the one which reflects better Jesus' thoughts) is that we are all individuals. We don't need temples, or woshipping anybody, or anything. We don' t need to pray, or give money to the Church, or avoid eating meat in Easter... We don' t need to make a ceremony to put our kids a name, and make them Christians...

And of course we can' t expect any help from him...

(*) Why do you call it "He"?

[SilverWizard_OTF]

First of all, i used "He" because in Christianity we say "Father" and the word God in greek is a male word. It doesn't matter, obviously God has not genre, you can say "Him", "She", "It". I didn't mean that God is male!
Now this "Nobody knows how God judges": You have his teachings. If you are an honourable man with love for others, i suppose it is sure that you will join with God to the next life. This phrase is mainly referred to those Aborigines you said, or Canibals, or Christians who haven't real faith (i don't say i have real faith, i just try to find the truth) e.t.c. You said something that many Atheists think that Christianity says, that every non-Christian will go to Hell. Christianity doesn't say this. We don't know the way God thinks, because we can't understand this way of thinking, since we are "lower" beings. We have God's teachings and we know He is a God of love, that's enougn for to take courage and hope. So, this phrase is to understand that we can't tell "You will go to hell, or you will go to hell e.t.c.", so we must respect the others.

We can't expect help from God? Of course we can. Just God's help comes when human strength is not enough. E.g. if you try to find a job and you do all the search you could and you didn't manage to find one job, then God will recognize your trial and will help you to find one.

[Nacho]

No, I am not saying that Christianism is a "blackmaily" religion. I asked you if it's necessary to believe to go to Heaven. Asking is different than saying.

You replied that it's not necessary. Then I asked you where is the point of believing if it's not necessary, and happened 3 pages of thread and you haven't replied.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

You say, if there is the same to be a moral atheist and christian, then why to believe, well, it obviously has difference. Its difference is that if you believe, then you feel that you have a Higher Source that see your good action and does not leave evil to hurt you. Also, i suppose someone feels hapier when he knows that life continues after death. Then nothing is pointless that you do in this world. So, one factor for to believe is our physical and spiritual health. They are more reasons, more important, but well i suppose you can think many of them I will say also antother one: Morality is a meaning very unstable. It is not bad to have a teaching to guide you, when you won't know how to act to a situation. Ok, i assume that God exists now, but for to answer to your question. It is much easier to take "bad" way if you don't believe, isn't it? Because if God does not exist, EVERYTHING are allowd, there is not defined good and wrong, no one can define proper and unproper.

As you can see, i have replied.

Yes, indeed you asked, but you told "that sound blackmail..." and i thought you took this idea of condemn as my certain answer. anyway

I would like Nachos to ask you something: All of these thoughts and questions, have you told them to a Monk/Priest? You know, i search Christianity, but a Monk/Priest "lives" this situation. Have you talked to a Monk?

[Nacho]

You haven' t replied. You say that believing makes you better than me (You are better preppaired to fight the evil, and you are happier). And you don' t know me... And of course you can' t know any of the millions of atheistics in the World. I can' t accept that this is the answer to my question, because then the reply is that the believers of the world actually are a bunch of supperb people with a too high concept of theirselfs. Another issue implicit in this reply is also that believers are a group of weak and fearful people who need something (A deity) for making something I do without the deity (Fighting against its fears and being happy). Sorry, the reply don' t work to me.

I asked to a priest, the one who gave religion to us in High School...

Maybe he was not the propper one to ask, because two years after I graduated he left the Chuch...

[SilverWizard_OTF]

I didn't said that believing makes me better than you. And i didn't say i am happier than you. I am hapier when i hope that there is life after death, but that doesn't mean i am hapier than you.
Listen, the matter of believing or not is very very personal. And some times it has to do with how much someone wants to search the unknown. Anyway, i don't think it's weakness to believe that, when e.g. a part of your family gets sick, there is a Higher Power which watch and will do what's the best to do for you and the people around you. Ok, the thought that a God exists makes me happy. I would be very sad if it, let's say was proven that God doesn't exist, but i don't think that this is weakness.

Anyway, i tried to give a reply to the matter of what's the point of believing with my pour english and with my knowledge about Christianity. But i realise that this (and of course many other matters that has to do with religions) can not be described with words. You talked with your school-teacher. Is that your only search about Christianity?
I have sent e-mails and had discussion with White Mages. Not only one or two. There bad priests and good priests, as there are people with good and people with bad intentions.
I suppose you have gone to church, you tried to follow Christianity, before you dismiss it. If not, then i am sorry, but you haven't any idea about what you judge.

[Nacho]

Thanks for finally admitting that religion is something personal and not coming from a supernatural source.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

The matter of believing is something very very personal indeed. This doesn't mean that there isn't any supernatural power. The matter is if someone has the will to find it, this is not inspired by supernatural power. Because freedom means that we have to find it, to choose to find it. And during this quest, if we face difficulties that are above our powers, then God will help us to overcome them

[Renal Shutdown]

But anyway, please do not be out-of-topic! Ã,  How many times do i have to tell you, this is not a topic for to judge Christianity. It is a topic for to compare Christianity and Spiritualism/White Magic, is that ok? Is that ok? IS THAT OK? Please, don't judge Christianity if you are not a follower of Spiritualism. And vice-versa. If you believe or not to Christianity, as far as you don't believe either in Ã, Spiritualism, your opinion shouldn't be posted here.

Ok, it's a few pages back, but i'm still catching up here..

Off-Topic? Ã, So you only want people who agree with you, or people you can argue with sufficiently to respond? Ã, I'm afraid people who are neither Christians nor Wiccans have a say in this, and to say otherwise is to start a thread like "N*ggers, do we need them? (Only Honky's may respond)". Ã, Surprisingly, it's not just you vs. a sect in the real world.

As for the off-topic stuff you mentioned, it's not like someone asked what is your favorite food? Ã, They were still in the realms of religious debate, and therefore, a completely legitmate post. Ã, I'm not going to say you're going to hell because of the color of your shirt, don't disrespect other people's opinions in the same way.

Right, now that we're semi-caught up..

"In my opinion.." and "It's is my opinion that..". Ã, Yea. Nice turn of phrase. Ã, Basically, it's a way of covering your ass in case of flak from other people. Ã, "In my opinion, all Christians are paedophiles". Ã, Not necessarily true, but I can use it as a defence if I'm questioned. Ã, Hopefully saying it's just an opinion will mean I can skip large parts of a conversation, like you seem to have.

Personally i feel sad with the idea that magic exists, and i don't think it's so bad to ask for you to tell me why you don't feel bad and how do you use magic to your life, to what exactly you believe, why, how did it came e.t.c.

Personally, I feel sad that Christianity exists. Ã, Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Wiccan, though I have looked into it in the past. Ã, Much like most other belief systems. Ã, All Wicca provides is a community for people who have rejected the mainstream religions, in favor of a smaller more firendly and forgiving community.

Christianity is just bigger, with more members, who disapprove of the lower groups. Ã, It's like the Jocks and the Geeks in a high school. Ã, There's the jocks, with all their friends, lording it over the more close knit community of the geeks. Ã, If a jock does something embarrassing, then he's shunned. Ã, If a geek does something embarrassing, then no one cares. Ã, The geeks already know that friendship and community counts more than popularity. Ã, If a Christian does something wrong, who stands up for him?



"He", the Father, etc.. Ã, What version of the Bible are you reading? Ã, My guess is the King James Version, which has been altered. Ã, If you're going to read the Bible, at least do it with some conviction and not just read what's been laid out in front of you. Ã, One of the masin things in Islam is research. Ã, You're supposed to investigate things. Ã, Unless you're a Jehovah's Witness, where such a thing is banned, what reason do you have for not doing any investigation?



I have an obscure request, that you probly won't accept, but here goes anyway..

Denounced the Lord. Ã, For just a week. Ã, Tell him before hand, that this is just a test of your faith. Ã, He's God, he'll completely understand*. Ã, Go about your life, as normal, speak to people as you normally would, and most of all, ENJOY LIFE. Ã, No matter how banal, just enjoy it. Ã, Spend time with friends and family. Ã, Just don't think about God at all. Ã, If you do think about him, think to yourself "He's on vacation this week, he's not looking".

I really doubt you'll go out and kill someone, or get cancer, or burn crosses or anything. Ã, Chances are, it won't make the slightest impact on your day to day life.



On a side note.. The people who haven't heard about Christianity (rain forest people, who are covered by Islam).. Ã, What happens to them? Ã, From what I remember from the Bible, they don't get a mention..

Also, what actual faith are you, SilverWizard_OTF?



EDIT:
I see my Fear/Greed section got completely omitted.  Do you have to ask your priest about that one?

[Nikolas]

Denounced the Lord.  For just a week.  Tell him before hand, that this is just a test of your faith.  He's God, he'll completely understand*.  Go about your life, as normal, speak to people as you normally would, and most of all, ENJOY LIFE.  No matter how banal, just enjoy it.  Spend time with friends and family.  Just don't think about God at all.  If you do think about him, think to yourself "He's on vacation this week, he's not looking".

Now what does this have to do with anything?

As a joke is lame (and offending)
As an idea is stupid (the idea not you).
As a comment it's rubbish
and as an argument it will fall in a sec: What makes you think that he's not already enjoying his life with God and all that inside?

There you go!

now onto other stuff:

IMO does serve a purpose and, although it shoudn't be overused simple as a shield, there are times that indeed it is the only excuse out there. I love my wife because she's the most beautiful creature in the world! Is it true? Nope! But if I add the word, in my opinion, suddently everything falls into place.

The version he would probably reading (being greek) would be a translated greek one, in the orthodox way Who is King James??? (I honestly don't know...)

Why the generalisation?

Christianity is just bigger, with more members, who disapprove of the lower groups

So mainly Christians think that they're better than everybody else (especially in religious matters) and think/believe/wish that all other religions (with their members) renounce or go to hell. That reminds me of, all the other religion, actually...

Personally I feel sad for the post you made, and the post you made me write.

[Erenan]

I hate it when people say that Christians think they're better than everybody else. It's rude and narrowsighted.

On a side note.. The people who haven't heard about Christianity (rain forest people, who are covered by Islam)..  What happens to them?  From what I remember from the Bible, they don't get a mention..

They receive the consequences for their actions, same as everybody else. Whether they know their actions are wrong and whether it's just to punish them for those actions would be a decision for God to make. I think it would be foolhardy and arrogant to say, "This is what he'd decide..." so I won't.

[Erenan]

EDIT: Sorry, I meant to edit the post above. :'(

[MashPotato]

  Much like most other belief systems.  All Wicca provides is a community for people who have rejected the mainstream religions, in favor of a smaller more firendly and forgiving community.

Christianity is just bigger, with more members, who disapprove of the lower groups.  It's like the Jocks and the Geeks in a high school.  There's the jocks, with all their friends, lording it over the more close knit community of the geeks.  If a jock does something embarrassing, then he's shunned.  If a geek does something embarrassing, then no one cares.  The geeks already know that friendship and community counts more than popularity.  If a Christian does something wrong, who stands up for him?

This metaphor doesn't support your argument.  Switch Christianity with atheism (or something else) and the metaphor could apply to that too.
Like Erenan said, to say all Christians think they're better than everyone else is extremely inaccurate--it's as fair as me saying that all atheists look down on religious folk.   

[Nacho]

I hate it when people say that Christians think they're better than everybody else. It's rude and narrowsighted.

Who are you talking about?

[Nikolas]

I hate it when people say that Christians think they're better than everybody else. It's rude and narrowsighted.

Who are you talking about?

Renal Shutdown most probably

[Renal Shutdown]

As a joke is lame (and offending)
As an idea is stupid (the idea not you).
As a comment it's rubbish
and as an argument it will fall in a sec: What makes you think that he's not already enjoying his life with God and all that inside?

You obviously haven't bothered reading what I said, and just got all judgemental before you had to.

If you'd bothered to read the statement, Nikolas, you'd have noticed I was saying he'd have pretty much the same life with or without God. Ã, I'm not saying oppose God, or follow Him. Ã, Just try to avoid him for a week, and see if life changes so drastically that you realise that you need him with you. Ã, He enjoys life with God, but how does that mean people without God DON'T enjoy life as much?


Off Topic..

IMO <GOD?> does serve a purpose and, although it shoudn't be overused simple as a shield, there are times that indeed it is the only excuse out there. I love my wife because she's the most beautiful creature in the world! Is it true? Nope! But if I add the word, in my opinion, suddently everything falls into place.

You don't really need to add "IMO" for your wife. Ã, We all assume that she's beautiful to you, why else would you be with her? Ã, If you don't feel that's true, then you probably not be with her.


Back on Topic..

So mainly Christians think that they're better than everybody else (especially in religious matters) and think/believe/wish that all other religions (with their members) renounce or go to hell. That reminds me of, all the other religion, actually...

Why do you choose (oxthodox greek) Christianity and not another religion? Ã, What makes it better or more divine than the others? Ã, Therein lies my point.

They receive the consequences for their actions, same as everybody else. Whether they know their actions are wrong and whether it's just to punish them for those actions would be a decision for God to make. I think it would be foolhardy and arrogant to say, "This is what he'd decide..." so I won't.

Islam covers for people who die before they hear about Islam, like the rain forest tribes, and they automatically go to heaven. Ã, Where is the get out clause for that in Christianity? Ã, Original Sin?

Mash Potato:

Precisely my point. Ã, It's a belief system or an organised belief system. Ã, No one is right. Ã, It's like saying everyone's favorite color should be blue, and everyone who disagrees is wrong. Ã, It's a personal choice.

That said, if some group think red is a better color, they don't have a right to come and tell any of us what we should prefer. Ã, The whole point is that it is personal, and should be discovered for yourself, and not be indoctrinated into you by friends, family or people who are willing to take advantage when you are in an unstable mindset.

(My friend, half Christian, half Muslim, mostly atheist suddenly started following fundamentalist Islamic beliefs, because he was going thru a rough time family-wise at home and people at his Uni provided vague answers as to why. Ã, He doesn't speak to us now, since, we're agents of Shaitan, and our only goal in life is to corrupt him. Ã, He's apparently forbidden to talk to us. Ã, It's sad, purely for the fact that he was one of my closest friends, and one of the most level headed people I've ever met).

Quote from: Erenan on Today at 07:57:44pm
I hate it when people say that Christians think they're better than everybody else. It's rude and narrowsighted.

Who are you talking about?

Show me a learned Christian who doesn't think he or she is right, and I'll show you a thousand that only know what they've been told and don't want to learn anything else.

(I'll start off with:
KKK = Christianity + Bigotry * Ignorance).

[Renal Shutdown]

OFF TOPIC..

I hate it when people say that Christians think they're better than everybody else. It's rude and narrowsighted.

Renal Shutdown most probably
Who are you talking about?

Now what does this have to do with anything?

As a joke is lame (and offending)
As an idea is stupid (the idea not you).
As a comment it's rubbish..

Sorry, Nik, I had to take the opportunity as it arose..

NOW, BACK ON TOPIC..

EDIT:

Ack, Sorry.  Double post.  I got a little ahead of myself, there.

[Nikolas]

Hehe...

Fair enough, but it's a typo

Take the "Renal Shutdown most probably:)" out of the quotes and you'll see the correct one, or even better let me edit it so it can be seen. Actually I was quite serious and answered Nachos question

You are the one who mentioned with big capital letters "ENJOY LIFE". How am I supposed to know that you are implying that life would be the same! It doesn't mean that "godless" people don't enjoy life. Nothing of a sort. I just don't see the idea behind trying to prove to someone that denouncing his beliefs will help in absolutely any way.

Actually "IMO" as a sentence does serve a purpose, not <GOD?> hehe... The language barriers (I'm not brittish so it could come from my side ) By havig someone saying that it is his opinion he is clearly stating that he is not offending anyones beliefs or anything like that, and should not be taken as an excuse as you did, for Wizards' posts

You also seem to be missing the point of my post. I'm saying that christianity and christians do what all human beings do: They think they're better! But it is not something reserved for christians as you imply (or assume). That's my point.

My opinion is this: In several aspects of life (not only religion), we meet people who are obsessed with it. Whether this be sports (have you seen Fan?), music (have you seen bodyguard?), love (have you seen all the other movies of Hollywood? ), religion (check the threads here...). It does have to do with personal prefferances and there lies the problem. No one can make me change my mind about marrying my wife, or having children or believing in Bhuda! Same goes for most people in certain aspects of life. Religion is a rather popular aspect for this kind of thing, as it is based on loose beliefs and supports, and arguments (at least for me <-so that no one will start discussing about this sentence ) and thus the rest of the population does not share that belief.

But these discussions are soo appealing that alwasy hit 10 pages over here

[Erenan]

Show me a learned Christian who doesn't think he or she is right, and I'll show you a thousand that only know what they've been told and don't want to learn anything else.

(I'll start off with:
KKK = Christianity + Bigotry * Ignorance).

Okay, first of all, there's nothing wrong with thinking yourself right. Any beliefs you hold are ideas that you at the very least suspect very strongly are right. If you didn't think you were right about your beliefs, then how are they beliefs at all? Example: "I believe that cats are mammals. Oh, but maybe I'm wrong. In fact, I think I am wrong about that. But I still believe it anyway." Does that make any sense?

Second, I'm not suggesting that few or none of the Christians among us are blindly following and have no interest in learning anything. In fact, that has nothing to do with what I said. Believing yourself right about your beliefs doesn't mean that you think you're better than anyone. What if your beliefs are that nobody is inherently good, and the only way you can make any headway at all in terms of spiritual progress is by admitting that to yourself and to God? That doesn't look to me like a holier-than-thou attitude at all. My problem is with generalizations. Saying that Christians consider themselves better than everyone else is like saying, "Black people like Hip Hop, and white people like Rock and Roll." Like all people, Christians come in different forms and believe different things and have different attitudes. This is a fact of life, and you'd do well to acknowledge it.

[Helm]

First of all, I don't see how forgiving someone who does not repent constitutes greater faith. And second, doing so directly contradicts the biblical model of forgiveness. There are many, many passages that clearly state to forgive anyone who repents of their sin. It does not say, "Yes, that guy murdered your wife and kids, and no, he doesn't care one bit, nor does he feel any remorse or guilt. But what the heck! Forgive him anyway!" In the Christian faith, that is not how God forgives mankind, and that is not how God endorses forgiveness, as you put it.

It is very clear to me you don't believe in the Christianity I am familiar with. The bible says a lot of things. You tell me with some authority that 'that's not the type of forgiveness God endorses, sorry!' but you have your extraconceptual sources and I just point out what happened in the bible: Christ/God forgave everyone without the smallest bit of repentance by them. He uh.. died for their sins. Gladly. That is the crux (haha, small pun!) of Christian doctorine. What a petty god he would be if he only forgave those that aknowledged him and asked for forgiveness directly. This is why I don't care if God exists after me being a colossal unrepentant atheist for all my life: he wouldn't mind, he wouldn't judge me, I'd go straight to heaven, along with everybody else. If god exists, he loves us all, and that's great. It's a win/win situation for me.

Of course for the social institution that is the Church what I am describing is BAD BUSINESS, and of course they need hell, they need earthly messengers and forgivers and they need to be them themselves. That shouldn't define the premise of the Christian faith, which is to the best of my knowledge UNCONDITIONAL NEVER-ENDING LOVE.

That having been said, I suppose I should mention that I'm not even entirely sure I want to be a Christian any longer,

What you seem to be is not very christianic for me, you seem to grasp theology, or at least have devoted a lot of your time to it, but for you to tell me with a straight face that you don't see how real faith is about forgiving the sinner without them asking to be forgiven, I'd say you're not the good sort of christian, in my opinion.

It was Creator who asked if you were teasing him, so if you really want his forgiveness, then maybe ask him again?

Which was the point: I don't want his forgiveness at all. I shit on his forgiveness. But he better forgive me, turn the other cheek, so on, if he wants to be a Christian. FAITH IS DIFFICULT. Christ's standard is a very high one. Get to it.

Also, I don't care if you spit on any cross. And if you should find Christ's body and spit on that, then I'd certainly not be a Christian.

Is there some sort of freudian I/you error in that sentence, as it makes no sense now.

Note: This post was written without anger.

I didn't detect any anger