Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

Nacho · Tue 03/10/2006 19:43:51

So, someone has tried to convince you that God does not exist without knowing if you believe in God or not? Ã,Â

That's Ã,Â impossible (or very silly of them). Anyway, believers go walking door to door trying to convince people God exists (Jeahova witnesses, mormons, etc...)

So, we got a draw... Ã,Â

Mordalles · Tue 03/10/2006 19:47:45

not that impossible. a few on these forums have tried.

Tuomas · Tue 03/10/2006 19:57:07

Or you can do like me: Be a good christian when you get the pros, like baptism, marriage in a church, christmas (which is more like a every-year-tradition than a biblical celebration), etc etc.

And believe in ghosts when you see one, believe in magic unless you can prove it's not, OK, I noticed whenI went to see this magician show that the tricks weren't true magic, but very cunningly done, and very intruguing. I failed to interpret some of them, but the fascination is in how the guy does it, not in what he does, well, not anymore.

Frankly, I don't give a horses shit if you think jesus wanted to die or some guy started doing odd things during a spiritism session and for some reason the video taken was erased. BUT, if I get the chance to see that myself, I will take the time to look at it properly. after all, I was to confirmation camp, as are 99% of Finns, 75% of which come home religious, full of thoughts, and 90% of them forget about it in 2 weeks. I did. But it was fun, and it was different.

Heh, i guess this is the modern hypocracy and hedonism that drives me. Well, who cares frankly. I believe in the machine. Why? because I did it, and it's bloody concrete. Besides, it can scratch my back and carress my genitals

Erenan · Tue 03/10/2006 20:28:30

@Helm: In that case, we are getting nowhere, because I have no choice but to make the same suggestion of you: Study the Bible more. But since you aren't Christian and don't intend to be one, that's silly of me. In any case, in response to your claims about the Bible, I have referred directly to the Bible, whereas you have said, "I think it says [whatever]." I won't presume to know how much you have studied the Bible, but I have been studying it for my whole life, both under the tutelage of different people and on my own, and all I can say is that you're going to have to be more persuasive if you really want to convince me (and I suspect you probably don't really). I am not dodging your points. Not by a long shot.

Also, I think I initially misunderstood what you meant by "good Christian," so I am okay.

Now then, what I really need to do is get to work on my game projects.

Helm · Tue 03/10/2006 20:37:59

For not dodging my point, you really are dodging my point! For the fifth time: What about when Jesus died for everybody's sins? Doesn't that mean everybody then (and presumably, everybody now) was forgiven whether they care to be forgiven or not and that if someone wants to follow in his example, he should love everybody unconditionally?

I will not ask you this again if you go blank on me, just know that I will no longer adress you in this topic, since if you say you do one thing (not dodge me) and do another (dodge me) there's not really any point to ask you for your opinions. There's worse fates than not being talked to by Helm on a subject, but I'll let you be the judge of how important all this is anyway.

Nikolas · Tue 03/10/2006 20:48:52

Helm,

I can only assume that once forgiven you can always resin

I steal something for you. You find out, you track me down, I give it back, you forgive me. I do it again, you get pissed off but yet you forgive me. The third time, you won't forgive me and never hang around me again.

Just because Jesus dies 2000 years ago, does not mean that you are free of sins, or will go to heaven or whatever you believe or christianity believe.

But Jesus died, so that our children can be free of sin and forgiven on the day they're born (and baptised more over). That's the idea. And even if not baptised (something that church will not like), I can certainly understand how people can still go to heaven (assuming there is one), and so on.

Nacho · Tue 03/10/2006 20:59:54

But someone specifically mentioned that the Bible says everybody is forgiven, no matter what they do...

As much as the thread advances, I have more clear that believers don't have a clue of what the Bible really means. I really understand that people feels so reluctant about Religion.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Tue 03/10/2006 21:24:26

QuoteFor not dodging my point, you really are dodging my point! For the fifth time: What about when Jesus died for everybody's sins? Doesn't that mean everybody then (and presumably, everybody now) was forgiven whether they care to be forgiven or not and that if someone wants to follow in his example, he should love everybody unconditionally?

I will try to answer this, and the answer is...No. Based on my albeit limited grasp of Biblical teachings as a whole, nowhere have I read that a Christian must love or forgive everyone unconditionally; in fact, let's go back to the Old Testament for a recap of the 'Wrathful God' years so I can further illustrate this point to you, Helm. Shun the adulterers and stone them to death, too! Unrepentant sinners of the highest degree? Stone them or shun them, but certainly do not carouse with them. Now let's fast forward a bit to the New Testament, King James edition. A much gentler worldview, indeed, preaching forgiveness and love--but this 'unconditional' concept you mention only extends from God, and yet he will still punish you for stepping out of line. The difference here between Old and New Testament is that God does so out of duty, like a father to a son who just tried to burn down the house out of ignorance. Similarly, (now I'm going on my interpretation of the Bible's teachings, mind) Christians ideally should be open to forgiving anyone, but not for everything that they do. It's not unchristian to have righteous anger toward a murderer because God shows righteous anger at times against those who have no respect for life or anything but themselves. This is a key distinction between forgiveness and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So no, nothing that I've read suggests that a 'good christian' as you put it has to forgive everyone for everything because Jesus made the conscious decision to sacrifice himself to level the playfield. I think that your idea of Christianity, while naive, is flattering really; the idea that Christians go around being forgiving for everything is a nice thought, though nothing I have read has suggested that God's followers must behave in such a way. If my explanation is still ambiguous, feel free to contact me via private message and perhaps I can make it clearer, though admittedly I'm no expert on the subject.

Helm · Tue 03/10/2006 21:31:02

Naive? woo

I am aware of the awesome Wrathful Tyrant stylings of god in the Old Testament, but for whatever reason (were come the Theologists to explain if you so desire) God had a change of heart (what?!) and decided to be all different in Testament v2.0 In the Greek Orthodox faith, the New Testament is what people base their faith on. The wrathful Jewish god is gone (hiding behind his huge finger), in enters unconditional love through Jesus. Don't ask me about the ramifications of an ultimate, unfathomable and all-powerful being having changes of heart, I don't really want to consider this. After all, I am playing devil's advocate here. And God is the devil.

oh, I think you'll also like that bit where Jesus says 'he who is without sin may cast the first stone', as far as unconditional forgiveness goes, and where he says 'love your enemy' as far as unconditional love goes. Seriously, I don't understand how Christians can miss these things.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Tue 03/10/2006 21:58:44

Quoteoh, I think you'll also like that bit where Jesus says 'he who is without sin may cast the first stone', as far as unconditional forgiveness goes, and where he says 'love your enemy' as far as unconditional love goes. Seriously, I don't understand how Christians can miss these things.

I think you're confusing God's teachings and Jesus' teachings, though. Though there has been lofty discussions about whether Jesus was just God in the flesh or not, the question remains: why are there variations in their messages? My answer is that Jesus was, afterall, a man and more in tune with this world, whereas God, not exposed to human failings, needs, desires, has a much harsher view of sin (going back to the Old Testament again, which really hasn't been forgotten or discarded as much as you seem to believe). Jesus was sent as more of a mediator, in my opinion, between God's wrath and man's spiral into evil. In the past when such events occured God would summon a great rain to drown the sinners (which he promised Noah he would never do again) or to turn a city to salt, but this time he tried a different approach. Jesus, having the feelings of a man but the knowledge of God, and together these made him unique because he was 'like us' rather than 'our father' and did not want to see suffering of any kind, even if it was law. I believe that despite him teaching his views to the apostles there are still passages in the New Testament discussing a reckoning for sinners. Bear in mind that The Rapture exists in the New Testament as well and cites everlasting damnation in the lake of fire for unrepentant, faithless sinners. Also, remember that Jesus' teachings were so controversial and contrary to God's word as written in the Old Testament that the Sanhedrin turned against him and brought about his arrest, believing him a Heretic.

Nikolas · Tue 03/10/2006 22:04:45

I have to state that I'm not a christian (I don't believe in christianity ways), but I do believe in 1 God.

Other than that as prveviously said by almost everyone, it seems that religion is a highly peronsal matter and everybody dissagres on everything it seems

There is little room for logical arguments in somefthing sooo personal and sooo different between nations. Cause somehow the greek way varies greatly fro mthe spanish/US/whatever. No matter if all of them are christians...

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Tue 03/10/2006 22:13:49

Actually, the direction Helm has taken the discussion (should christian forgiveness be absolute?) is a very interesting one, at least to me.

loominous · Tue 03/10/2006 22:17:53

QuoteJesus was sent as more of a mediator, in my opinion, between God's wrath and man's spiral into evil.

What kind of a screwup god gets mad at his creations for his own crappy craftsmanship.

As for forgiveness, the bible seems contradicting enough to support any view.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Tue 03/10/2006 22:29:39

QuoteWhat kind of a screwup god gets mad at his creations for his own crappy craftsmanship.

I gather you don't have children? If you do I wager you'd see how someone could get mad at something they created for screwing up/getting into trouble.

lo_res_man · Tue 03/10/2006 22:37:02

An interesting point progZmax, and that APPEARS to be the metephor the bible uses.

Helm · Tue 03/10/2006 22:48:45

God making parenting mistakes!

loominous · Tue 03/10/2006 22:50:44

Quote from: ProgZmax on Tue 03/10/2006 22:29:39
QuoteWhat kind of a screwup god gets mad at his creations for his own crappy craftsmanship.

I gather you don't have children?Ã,Â If you do I wager you'd see how someone could get mad at something they created for screwing up/getting into trouble.

So, as a parent, I would be allowed to design my children from scratch, molecule for molecule, knowing everything there is to know about the universe, and the outcome of any action? Not to mention I'd be rid of any human failings, such as irrationality, which allows us to blame other things for our own mistakes.

Parenthood does sound nice.

Nikolas · Tue 03/10/2006 22:59:20

Quote from: loominous on Tue 03/10/2006 22:50:44
Parenthood does sound nice.

You betcha!

But the idea about humans, is that they are free and this is what creates all the problems. Otherwise sure it would be easy for God to prove himself, appear, fix everything and then dissapear, forbidding us from doing any wrong. But what fun would that be?

And as a parent (to keep the metaphor a little longer), I have to state that once in a while teaching something comes from merely allowing something to happen, whether good or bad. I'm not implying that I would leave my kid get burn or really hurt, but sometimes after a warning fails many times, you just have to leave it to happen and the kid will learn. It is a method of teaching that

lo_res_man · Tue 03/10/2006 23:06:15

And besides, all the billyho about god and how perfect he is could merely do what most parents do,consciously or unconsciously. try to convince the kids that they are perfect. zap me now, but that appears to fit the pattern given in the bible. god may just be learning as we do, about being a good parent.

MrColossal · Tue 03/10/2006 23:18:36

and god said:

If I interfer you won't learn anything?