Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

[Las Naranjas]

I want to know why you're all ignoring the reasoned scientific approach of Unilin.

[Vince Twelve]

If you want to be a Christian, you have to study the Bible. But when you study the Bible, you can say "Oh, look, there's rather quite a bit of truth here" or "oh, look, this is completely ludicrous and contradictory" rather than "Oh, look, this says what the preacher said it said, so he and it must be right."

If I'm not mistaken you can have the same "Oh, look, there's rather quite a bit of truth here" or "oh, look, this is completely ludicrous and contradictory" conclusions from what a preacher says...

Saying "Anyone who bases his or her beliefs on what other people tell them needs to be murdered most brutally" could apply to someone reading a book and believing it word for word just as well as it could apply to someone listening to the preacher on the pulpit.

I think what you might actually mean is that everything that you learn, be it from a teacher, preacher, parent, or book, should be considered and examined with a critical eye rather than taken word-for-word as gospel -- something which I would suggest should be applied to everything in life, not just religion.

I'm not saying that preachers are good places to find the truth, I'm just saying to be careful when you suggest that a 2000 (rounding significantly up) year old book can provide better summary of what is right and wrong or what is "true" than what someone (a teacher, a philosopher, or your mom) in the modern world could teach you.  Things change.  Books usually don't.

[esper]

Erenan: hope you weren't writing a lengthy response because something I said offended you. I mean no offense by anything I said, even though the whole murder/cannibalization bit is a tad strong

Vince: You know how to say what I'm talking about better than I do, using quite a few less words. Of course, I mean precisely what you are saying. But again, the originator of the post mentioned he was torn between Christianity and a "right-hand" occultic path. There is no "Christianity" without the Bible, and thus it's obviously what one would study if that was what they wanted to know about. To defend my position about reading the bible instead of listening to preachers: I grew up in a Baptist home, and I went to Catholic school. I've been in Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Non-denominational, and Pentecostal services. They all say some things that coincide with the "book in question," but it's more a matter of picking and choosing what suits them. Most followers of a particular religion believe the religious leader and forget entirely to bother investigating the source material. So, to restate my original post, "If you want to be a Christian, don't choose a denomination and study the bible in light of what they want to say. If you think christianity is for you, go to the source of Christianity (the bible) and make sure it's something you want to believe." I would offer this same advice to someone no matter what spiritual path they chose to follow.

And you've got to remember... Sure, YOU know that things change, but books don't, but most people see black or white, forgetting the infinite spectrum of shades of grey between them, and follow the black and white of a scripture, person, or organization to the letter. That's why, at the end of the day, I make the saying in my signature the ultimate "scripture" in my life.

[Krysis]

I want to know why you're all ignoring the reasoned scientific approach of Unilin.

You mean the "Dungeons&Dragons" quote?

[Nine Toes]

Nothing is impossible, only improbable.

[Nacho]

To be honest, the bible is a supperb book of moral

Not if you actually care to read the whole thing.

(I'm not suggesting you should)

He... It's been ages since I don't read it deeply, maybe since catechesis (sp?) The thing is that the message has been rewritten almost since the beginning, starting with saint Paul, who re-wrote it to make it more suitable for the Romans.

Maybe if you read it line by line it's not totally correct, from the moral point of view, but it's being mutated into that... Maybe not the lines of the bible, which can't be easilly changed, but the interpretation people do abot them. A cool, ulta-politically correct, sissy message. A pitty, the original message might be more interesting.

Basically, what I am saying, is that I agree with you, and we don't have a hint of what Jesus said... That makes the whole message unconsistent.

Actually, there wasn't something like "I am not here to change the sword for the feather. I am here to raise nations against nations, brothers against brothers, and fathers against sons" said by Jesus in the bible?

And there's also this line "I am not going to change a comma of an accent of the Law" which makes me think that he actually was an ultra-orthodox, in spite of a reformer.

But who knows...

[Las Naranjas]

Yes, the established and widely respected reference source for all paranormal studies Krysis. They even release new material constantly to keep at the cutting edge of knowledge, as well as being the general text book for undergraduate and postgraduate courses in the field.

[SSH]

And there's also this line "I am not going to change a comma of an accent of the Law" which makes me think that he actually was an ultra-orthodox, in spite of a reformer.

Well, that's the point, isn't it? He said that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfil it (by taking the punishment of death). And if someone else has taken the punishment anyway, you can do what you like...

[Helm]

@Helm: This is getting kind of off topic, but I feel inclined to point out that what you love about branches of Christianity is clearly not based on much at all within Christian theology.

Well of course it's not! I find Christianity to not be my cup of tea. The christian morality is not very far away from my own, and I've always practiced intuitively, as learnt behaviour (I was not brought up in a christian family even) and biological programming, because it is to my best interest to not murder people and to usually be helpful and whatnot. That is the sole reason variations of the same core moral mentality are practised all across the world: they work. We survive. I understand that this basic thing can be codified - and has been indeed - in a million different ways, but I don't really need the hierarchically inane and epistemologically far-fetched bible or any similar text to feel content to be a moral automaton.

Salvation vs. Condemnation isn't a question of getting all the minute details right in your definition of God, and nobody who counts ever said it was.

I'm sorry, Erenan, it's been made quite clear by people of various offshots of christianity that their belief is incadescent and very much based on that their specific small sect is indeed correct and the only one to achieve salvation and all the rest will suffer a different fate. Maybe they don't 'count' by your standards, by those are real people in the real world too and they believe this stuff fervently. And it amuses me.

[Nacho]

And there's also this line "I am not going to change a comma of an accent of the Law" which makes me think that he actually was an ultra-orthodox, in spite of a reformer.

Well, that's the point, isn't it? He said that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfil it (by taking the punishment of death). And if someone else has taken the punishment anyway, you can do what you like...

To be honest, I don't really know which is Jesus' point, since if you note all the sentences he said in a paper and read them aloud you should only get a 4 or 5 minutes speech, Andrew...

I actually think that it's 1,000 times more meritory to practise this message of christianity knowing that there is not God above us to punish us if we don't practise it, and no paradise at the end. Actually, promising a reward if you behave propperly is quite inmoral... Good behaviour is something that has to be intuitive, as Helm said. (Not sure if he agrees with the first part of this paragraph, though...)

[SilverWizard_OTF]

Nacho: Christian Monks, at least according to what Christianity believes, have done miracles. Ok; So, if i will axcept it or not, it's personal matter. Now, twelve fishermen, completely non-educated, "conquered" with their words the whole Roman Empire, defeated it, and made Christianity higher than Roman's Polytheism. You can see it as you like, personally i treat is as a miracle. History confirms that and many many other cases of Christian Monks, who were wealth people before, that gave all their fortune to the name of Jesus and wrote books of incredible morality, so don't tell me about "medieval writings". That's what i said, that Christianity's miracles it's something more than supernatural impression like "turning people into a stone". Also, about supernatural healing (where you said me dude), i am not reffered to medieval incidents, but to HUNDREND cases where many many people believe that the blessing of a Christian Monk cured their sickness. Ok, you find that stupid, but if you think that these Monks believe that their power is coming from Jesus, they wear a black cloth all the time e.t.c. you will realise that these Monks have not any personal profit to tell lies. So, that troubles me.

esper: Of course it is extremely important to search by yourself. What do you think i did??? Searched all supernatural stuff, like spititualism and so, trying to examine by MYSELF if there is a truth inside them. And i ended with the decision that there isn't. But i searched.

eagermind: Why do you find it dangerous? I told that i searched both Cristianity and Spiritualism/White Magic. But you know, if someone is Christian, then he can't be at the same time a White mage. And vice-versa. So, if i believe in White Magic, i won't be a Christian any more, because Christianity doesn't believe in White Magic. So simple as that. If there is any physical explanation, then it's ok, but when i talk about White Magic/Spiritualism, i talk about the aspect that they are supernatural activities.

Ã, Look, i think most of us were a bit out-off-topic. Maybe i didn't explained well its meaning. My point wasn't to discuss if christianity exists or not, or how a person should choose what to follow. Well, i wanted to invite here people that believes in Christianity and people that believes in White Magic/Spiritualism and to discuss a bit their disagreements and if Ã, a person can be both Christian and White Mage at the same time. I was troubled by that point and that was what i wanted to be discussed in this topic. I would like to hear opinions of e.g. Christians that searched Spiritualism and dismissed them, and vice-versa opinions.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

Something last about existence or not of Christian God. I don't want to analyze this. Nacho, there are many arguments to your opinion but also and many pillars from it. If you believe that Jesus is a "thief", please don't post it here, because you are off-topic.

[SSH]

To be honest, I don't really know which is Jesus' point, since if you note all the sentences he said in a paper and read them aloud you should only get a 4 or 5 minutes speech, Andrew...

Well, there are actions that speak louder than words: like someone who has a hotline to an omnipotent being allowing himself to be nailed to a cross.

I actually think that it's 1,000 times more meritory to practise this message of christianity

The message of christianity is that we're forgiven. How is that something you can practice without believing in a god, and eternal life? You're perhaps confusing christianity with judaism.

Good behaviour is something that has to be intuitive, as Helm said.

You obviously haven't tried to get a 3-year-old to have good behaviour

[Helm]

Yes, tell us more on how you teach the teachings of christ to a 3-year old in order for it to behave.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

It can be done, but please don't be out-of-topic

[SSH]

Yes, tell us more on how you teach the teachings of christ to a 3-year old in order for it to behave.

Nah, I generally use promises of sweeties

[Nacho]

Nacho: Christian Monks, at least according to what Christianity believes, have done miracles. Ok; So, if i will axcept it or not, it's personal matter. Now, twelve fishermen, completely non-educated, "conquered" with their words the whole Roman Empire, defeated it, and made Christianity higher than Roman's Polytheism. You can see it as you like, personally i treat is as a miracle. History confirms that and many many other cases of Christian Monks, who were wealth people before, that gave all their fortune to the name of Jesus and wrote books of incredible morality, so don't tell me about "medieval writings". That's what i said, that Christianity's miracles it's something more than supernatural impression like "turning people into a stone". Also, about supernatural healing (where you said me dude), i am not reffered to medieval incidents, but to HUNDREND cases where many many people believe that the blessing of a Christian Monk cured their sickness. Ok, you find that stupid, but if you think that these Monks believe that their power is coming from Jesus, they wear a black cloth all the time e.t.c. you will realise that these Monks have not any personal profit to tell lies. So, that troubles me.

A guy with a silly western story placed in the space (a long time ago, in a place far, far away...) also defeated the big holywood producers and won millions. The fact that something small gets into something big it's not a miracle... It's a mathematical fact. Billions of projects are started everyday. Only if one per million succedes you'll have 1,000 miracles per day, from your point of view.

You refer to historical (and completelly natural) facts, as miracles. If you are going to see the hand of good at example of good behaviour, at any healing or at any story of improvement, then we are going to end discussing if "The power of the imagination of billion kids in the world makes Santa Claus real for one night per year".

Ain't that a miracle, from your point of view?

You are talking to me as folklore.

And, if you see giving your fortune to Ã, the poor as an evidence that something exists... Well, there is also people who gives their fortune to the aliens in Prima Raticuli. Does that mean that they inhabitants of Prima Raticuli are real?!?

About the "supernatural healings" that's just another case of urban legends stuffed into an attractive packing. They are not real, at least in the sense you want to believe. There are placebo effects, natural recoverings and apparent healings that ain't finally real. Quote me one of those cases from the hundreds you have which has passed ascientific filter and I'll be more open to discuss...

@ SSH: If the cases of the nailing were clear... Anyway, sacrificing yourself for a motive supposed to be important does not prove divinity. (Mohammed Atta was a deity?) I am not comparing both characters, but both gave their lives for something they believed it was very important. You assume Jesus motivation was directly influenced by God. I don't.

And, about the real message of the new testament... If he came to forgive the sins of the people, I just can ask... why? So, the message now is that no matter what you do, that you are going to be automatically forgiven? So, Hitler is at the same step than mother Therese at the eyes of God?

If that the message, then I am out.

EDIT: Anyway, why do you pick one specific sentence of the new testament as the main message on it? If allowed to choose, I am more opened to choose something like "Treat the others as you wish to be treated". It's simple, and terrible effective, and does not imply to believe in people walking over the waters and white bearded old people sitting in a throne in the skies...

[Helm]

It can be done, but please don't be out-of-topic

Stop telling people they're out of topic, please.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

12 fishermen completely non-educated, "conqouered" Roman Empire with their word, without using any form of violence. Do you know any other incredible fact like that? I didn't tell that this is an evidence, but it is a serious element for me.
Also, some people give their fortune to the name of aliens, ok, but you compare them with the daylights of Saints of christianity. They didn't just gave their fortunes and waited to happen something. They FIGHT, they helped people, they wrote books of magnificent morality they offer something to humanity, and that is confirmed by history.
Ã, I think you can't understand that i am not talking about evidence,as i said before, but about serious and wonderful facts. It doesn't nedd to be so sarcastic, because this s my opinion, which was created after many time of research.
Ã, You want quotes from cases of supernatural healing. Ha! Do you know Monks from mount Athos? Anyway, at least in Greece, which is the land of Orthodox Christianity, you can find many many cases of people who were "escaped" from sure death. Make a research on your own if you are interested.

I replied to you because i think you have misunderstood me. I don't say i am absolutely sure for Christianity, but, as i said many times before, i have serious facts that trouble me.
But anyway, please do not be out-of-topic! Ã, How many times do i have to tell you, this is not a topic for to judge Christianity. It is a topic for to compare Christianity and Spiritualism/White Magic, is that ok? Is that ok? IS THAT OK? Please, don't judge Christianity if you are not a follower of Spiritualism. And vice-versa. If you believe or not to Christianity, as far as you don't believe either in Ã, Spiritualism, your opinion shouldn't be posted here.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

But Helm, if they are indeed out-of-topic, it is not bad to tell it