Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

[SSH]

@ SSH: If the cases of the nailing were clear...

Well, in your earlier argument, you seemed to be accepting that the bit where he said X and Y was true, so I assumed we were arguing about what the bible meant, not whether the bible was true or not. Obviously, if you don't believe that the bible is true, then you're in a whole different argument than something so specific as what |Jesus's intentions were according to the word in the bible...

Anyway, sacrificing yourself for a motive supposed to be important does not prove divinity.

I wasn't claiming divinity for him in my argument. I was just trying to explain that saying that you can't possibly know what Jesus was really on about from reading the bible simply isn't true: you were arguing that becuase direct quotes from Jesus in the gospels are relatively sparse, then you can't know anything about his motives or intentions. I think you can deduce things. Can we stick to arguing one point at a time, because you're moving the goalposts...!

And, about the real message of the new testament... If he came to forgive the sins of the people, I just can ask... why?

For the same reason that I forgive my daughter when she jumps on me and accidentally hits me in the nads... I love her. Now, I explain to her why she shouldn't do it, but I don't get angry. If she kept doing it, I would maybe have to use a punishment such as going to her room alone for a while and so on. But even if she kept deliberately doing it and causing me a lot of pain, I'd still love her and still forgive her. But if she was doing this as a teenager and moved away from home and cut off contact then although I'd still forgive her, it wouldn't make any difference  to whether we were together or not, as she wouldn't know. But if I suddenly got an email or phone call from her from the other side of the world saying she was in trouble in some way and wanted my help then I woudl drop everything and go to help her.

The Christian message that I believe in is that God is like that.... but more so. Funnily enough, some guy called Jesus tells a similar story about a son who goes off and ends up eating pig swill...

In that story, the other son is angry and jealous at the end, as he doesn't think the fatehr shoudl have forgiven the son who went off. In the old testament, there is another story about a guy who God sends off to tell some people who are bad to stop being bad. The guy doesn't want to, as he doesn't want them to be good as he hates them and would hate for God to forgive them. The guy was called Jonah. God is forgiving and merciful, and its up to him as to whether he forgives anyone. So maybe he'll forgive all those devout, peaceful muslims as well as forgiving the devout, peaceful Christians. I love that God is "big enough" that that is a possibility. So maybe he can forgive those involved in murder conspiracies, like, for example, St Paul. It is his forgiveness to give and I hope I will be accepting of it, whosoever is included.

[Nacho]

12 fishermen completely non-educated, "conqouered" Roman Empire with their word, without using any form of violence. Do you know any other incredible fact like that?

Gandhi. With the British Empire. Dressed with nappies.

Castro. A group of 15 revolutionaries defeated the regular cuban Army.
Alexander.
Genghis Kahn.

And...

Hitler. He started a movement that almost conquered the world. Are we going to worship him, now?
Usama Bin Laden. Al Qaeda es effectivilly fighting against the most powerful army in the history of the world. Are we going to move to Yihad for that?

Edit: SSH. I f you read carefully my previous posts you will see that I claim that the actual message of the bible has been mutated into something "cool" and "correct". I basically agree with that because no one can be against peace and love in the world. I don't know which was the original message in the bible, though...

Your second argument is quite easy to reply. If we can't know what he really did, we can't know his motivations to make the sacrifice, ergo, we can't even know if it was actually a sacrifice. We don't actually have anything clear about why he was nailed, starting from the fact that he was nailed. Romans were totally openend to allow native religions, except if they include a hidden nationalistic message.

About the third argument, I still don't see why we must automatically forgive people. You directly gave me a lovely example of a father forgiving his daughter, but you don't explain how can a religious message put in the same pack Hitler and Mother Therese. The message that "automatical forgiveness" gives allows people to do everything. If that's the message, what Jesus said was "Ok, in 1,200 years it's going to be ok to start the cruzades, guys..." And "No matter Adolf, kill those jews, I'll forgive you, because I'll love you" Might work with a teen who dissapears, yeah... But if my son turns into a drug addict, steals my money and finally kills my wife and me, sorry, I am not going to forgive him. Actually, I would try to kill him beofre. I am allowed, no? God will forgive me because he loves me...

Actually the argument, in it's deepest sense invalidates almost all the discussions against moral you made in this boards. For example, you have been critical with terrorism... but basically you have been more fierce against the disproportionate reply and the preventive war on terror. Why? God is going to forgive them, no? Or are you saying that you can only forgive the ones you love? Then, ok, God is going to forgive Bush because Bush is his son, but you shouldn't, because Bush is not your son, then, basically, your forgive only concerns the ones you love... Then, from the very moment that the message implies that that the forgive musn't necesarilly be give to everybody, it also implies that it's not necessary to forgive even one person. As you can see the message implies some autodestructive issued that totally invalidate it.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

Look, the answer is very simple, but i won't answer here, if you want p.m. or say me any chat adress to discuss about these, or create a post for these matters. This discussion you open has nothing to do with this topic which has a title: Christianity VS White Magic.

[Helm]

It is a topic for to compare Christianity and Spiritualism/White Magic, is that ok? Is that ok? IS THAT OK?

no, that's not ok. This topic will be what this topic will be. Don't try to keep us in check, this is neither a formal argument, nor a tv panel discussion.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

Yes, but i created this topic to discuss into this subject. Would it seem nice if in a topic you did that has to do with animals, someone to send something that has to do with cars? That's the meaning that TOPICS exists. I don't want to check, but i suppose you read the title of a topic, before you post.

[Nacho]

The topics allways mutate. If you really want to keep this discussion into something related with Gandalf against the Voodoo lady, this thread will probably die in a few minutes and we should create a new one about the really interesting topics above...

[SilverWizard_OTF]

I don't have a problem with that. Let it die if no one finds this interesting. But i wouldn't like someone enter here, see this out-of-topic discussion, and so get bored and leave. So, let this topic, if no one finds it interesting, to die and create you anew topic, for the discussion you opened. I will participate with pleasure in it.

[voh]

Tip for the future: Discussing religion on the interweb is in general, not a good idea at all.

People come from all walks of life. You will never be able to keep it to one topic because those who're religious are religious (kekekeke) about their beliefs, and those who aren't religious are still pretty religious about their lack of belief.

My opinion is that both Christianity and white/black magic are fairytales. Christianity just has more followers. Actually, Christianity is like VHS, and white/black magic like Betamax and Video2000.

Is that "out of topic"?

[SilverWizard_OTF]

Ok, i've changed the title of the topic. Now it will be more specific.

[SSH]

That is not a change to the topic, it is an attempt to restrict who posts here, which I think is a very bad idea as it will neither work nor be a good thing if it did work.

If you want to have this strict control over subjects, start your own forum where you can be a moderator and choose your own rules.

[SilverWizard_OTF]

I don't see anything bad as you describe it. Any topic has a specific point of view. I didn't created that topic for posting critisism against Christianity or White Wizardry, without belonging to one of this "teams". The conversation has gone to a discussion about Christianity and that wasn't the purpose of this Topic. I just wanted to make it clear. I don't have any "bad intentions", if there was createdÃ,  a topic about Christianity and critisicm, i would post with pleasure, without fanaticism of course (i don't have any fanaticism anyway).Ã, 
Ã,  So, i don't see it as an unproper restrict. If you see it like that, then don't post. Maybe there are AGSers who wants to talk about the matter i want to discuss, without having to argue with other people who will try to convice them that supernatural is a kind of fantasy and doesn't exist.
Anyway, if this topic dies soon and no one finds this interesting, no problem with that. Create SSH a new one with more interesting subject. That's it how a forum works, i guess.

[dasjoe]

why not just use this one for it, since this thread is where the discussion was born.
and why the heck are you telling others to stay on topic when you are discussing about forums instead of staying on-topic yourself?

[voh]

Good luck finding White Magicians to debate with

[SilverWizard_OTF]

Maybe there are AGSers who wants to talk about the matter i want to discuss, without having to argue with other people who will try to convice them that supernatural is a kind of fantasy and doesn't exist.
Anyway, if this topic dies soon and no one finds this interesting, no problem with that. Create SSH a new one with more interesting subject. That's it how a forum works, i guess.

When i was searching Spiritualism's philosophy, i noticed that they are about the same with New Age stufs, in which they claim that all Gods and Godesses in this world are images of the same God. In my opinion, this is a contradiction, since if this was correct, then all Gods and Godesses would have the same teachings. That was one thing that troubled me. The next one is the idea of redemption, which i find it quite bad. It represents soul like a cold box which is filled with emotions from time to time, to be empty and fill again. Then, i noticed that Spiritualism accepts all the wicca stuff, which Christianity thinks they are eveil. I wonder if there is any Christian who is at the same time follower of Spiritualism. Personally i couldn't "compromise" them

[Sam.]

Are you an actual wizard?

[Becky]

You are aware that Spiritualism includes a whole bucket load of stuff and you cant just lump everything into a "spiritualism" label?  Such as Wicca incoprorates several different avenues of belief too.  You can't claim that everything is incompatible with Christianity...but then there are so many branches of that too that everything could probably fit somewhere.

Eh.

[Sam.]

I'm not really into White magic and stuff, but I did see a man pull a coin out of someones ear once, that was pretty special.

[Erenan]

Salvation vs. Condemnation isn't a question of getting all the minute details right in your definition of God, and nobody who counts ever said it was.

I'm sorry, Erenan, it's been made quite clear by people of various offshots of christianity that their belief is incadescent and very much based on that their specific small sect is indeed correct and the only one to achieve salvation and all the rest will suffer a different fate. Maybe they don't 'count' by your standards, by those are real people in the real world too and they believe this stuff fervently. And it amuses me.

Oh, I see. You are amused by people then, and here I was talking about the religion itself. Nevermind.

[Helm]

Yes, I don't find christian doctorine very amusing itself. In fact the bigger part of christian imagery, especially the apocalyptical aspects are downright foreboding and dreadful. Or to be frank, the more you look into any aspect, any teaching, the apocrypha are horrifying and insane. Christianity has very directly inspired such great acts of artistic maligance:

The destroying genius of Idols,
Will shroud the world with utter lies.
Dance the cobbles, his abode named Dis.
Portraits have spoken of their masters' distress.
Icons with kisses, tell me who have seen this?
Failing Enochian tapestries...
Depict the prince of fallen virtues,
In almost poetic rhapsody.
Masturbate to the sound of the knell.
The Pathetic stench of dying children.
Perhaps our fall is certain.
Limbs entwined in absolute contortion.

[Andail]

Please stop whining. You're like one of those kids who don't wanna play anymore when the other kids have made much nicer lego-cars.
You dished out a majorly debatable topic and it's bound to develop along the way. Not that much, though.
Start a blog if you wanna keep your opinions neat and tidy and protected.