Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

[SSH]

Epistemologically, lack of proof constitutes disprooval until there's reason to believe otherwise.

My personal relationship and experience of Jesus is my reason to belive otherwise.

[Nacho]

Becky, I wrote a lot in this thread, so I understand that you' ve missed my point.

I am nott saying that there must be only a message in the whole Bible. Actually I think there are a lot    All my cruzade to show all the contradictions of the Bible started when I said that the message was "Do to the others what you want to others do to you" and SSH's replied "The real message is that we are all forgiven" (And accused me of confusing Christianism with Judaism)

Then this "The real message is..." discussion started. But it's been crossed fire between believers, I was not in that shooting. 

What I was really looking for in this thread was a believer writing something of the sort of:

"I can' t prove the supernatural stuff in the Bible, but I like to believe it, even having no proofs, because it works for me for being a better person"

As I finally got something simillar with SSH' s post, I think I am going to abandon this discussion now.

Actually, the existence of a God is impossible to prove or disprove, its a matter of faith

This is great.

[SSH]

If you want to pretend to yourself that you got what you want and bow out becuase you know you can't get any better, then feel free 

[Helm]

Epistemologically, lack of proof constitutes disprooval until there's reason to believe otherwise.

My personal relationship and experience of Jesus is my reason to belive otherwise.

That's awesome and I really have nothing discouraging to say on that. Just saying that your experience and your Jesus and your god really need not be discussed as if they're scrutable and fathomable by others. There should be no church built around these impossible to communicate concepts, nor should anyone be approached to be introduced into this church, even if they've had their own personal experiences with Jesus, because their Jesus is not your Jesus, their god is not your God. One person cannot communicate faith to another. What they do, and this is in my opinion 'wrong', is band together under the same-but-not-really-the-same Faith because that beats being alone, right?

I've had my share of personal experiences which I don't attribute to Jesus, probably because I never understood that concept. I attribute them to other things, and I go about my life with a morality probably in application pretty similar to yours, SSH. I think simpler is better in this case. I need no church, no god, and no faith to do good like the little automation I am.

[Tuomas]

Therefore for those that enjoy rationality and things making sense, until the attributes of this god thing can be scrutinized and its premise tested, god is nothing more than a vague concept of antithetical terms like 'forever', 'all-powerful' and 'omniescent', not even a theory.

Now there's a line! I should copy that and paste it into my next english essay and they'd give me a 10er. And I don't mean sarcastically.

[SSH]

Yeah, but make sure you spell epistemologically correctly, Tuomas

[Sylvr]

Half the time Most of the time I don't even know who is defending what side. I know I joined this thread late (and don't have time to read all of it), but I don't understand how there can be so many inconsistencies (and spelling errors! ) within the Bible. Perhaps half of the time people don't know what they are talking about. I know that nowhere in the Bible does it say we can get to heaven by works. So what's all the confusion? And what happened to the discussion that included White Magic (unless that ended... I hope I won't have opened a new can-o'-worms)

[Tuomas]

Half the time Most of the time I don't even know who is defending what side. I know I joined this thread late (and don't have time to read all of it), but I don't understand how there can be so many inconsistencies (and spelling errors! ) within the Bible. Perhaps half of the time people don't know what they are talking about.

that's religion my friend

[Helm]

hum I am no awesome speller, but I think 'Epistemologically' was correct, no?

[Becky]

SilverTrumpet:  Here is where the Bible says you can get to heaven by works.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. -- Matthew 16.27

Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. -- Romans 2:6, 13

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. -- Revelation 20:12-13

So is it just by faith alone?  Or works?  Or a combination of both?  I don't particularly care, but as you can see from the various denominations, no one is united on what exactly you need to do to get into Heaven.

And in case you were wondering, here is a list of contradictions/inconsistencies in the Bible: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

[Sylvr]

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. -- Matthew 16.27

This doesn't mention that that's how you get into heaven. One is rewarded for what they do after preaching God's message:
2 Tim. 4 7-8
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that dayâ€"and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."
Revelation 2:10
"Fear nothing in the things you're about to sufferâ€"but stay on guard! Fear nothing! The Devil is about to throw you in jail for a time of testingâ€"ten days. It won't last forever.
Don't quit, even if it costs you your life. Stay there believing. I have a Life-Crown sized and ready for you."
There are 3 such other crowns mentioned. Do you call such rewards 'rewards of works'? I would say that they are for believing and for living out God's purpose, which is different from just works.
James 2:18
"But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. "

Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. -- Romans 2:6, 13

I think that's a bit out of context:
Romans 2:5,6
"But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." (<--believed and lived it out vs. not believed)

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. -- Revelation 20:12-13

But how did those who were in heaven get into heaven?

[Becky]

I can't be bothered to go back and forth and quotemine the Bible because frankly it doesn't interest me.  But my point was that different denominations use different passages to reflect their particular set of doctrines because the Bible -is- so unclear/vague/inconsistent.  You can find Biblical quotes to support pretty much any type of view.  You can sit and argue justification by faith alone vs good works etc till the cows come home, but that wouldn't achieve anything beyond a lot of hot air.

[Nacho]

I think God should include a manual in the Bible.

Posted by NewbieAngel_06 in 10/03/07 at 20:42h:

Dear God, Do you want some of the sinners to go to Hell?

Posted by God in 10/03/07 at 20:45h:

RTFM n00b!

[SSH]

Becky, indeed: Wesley and Whitfield, founders of Methodism disagreed about this point their whole lives. On the web you can find lists of alleged contradictions int he bible, and kudos to that skeptics' site, they link to rebuttals, too.

Having looked around, I guess that my beliefs might be classified as: Arminianism. Do I now get permission to have some fellowship with like-minded Christians, Helm? The thing is, my belief includes the necessity to tell others about it. I've noticed that many in modern society seem to think "Belive what you like, as long as the belief doesn't involve trying to convert me".

And Helm, I wasn't trying to say that you spelt Epidiemiology wrong, just that its a hard word to spell right.

[Helm]

How would I know if it is allowed? But why should you NEED to tell others about it? I don't see why you should.

Also, if salvation can be lost, in any way, then the God in heaven continues to be a petty and vindictive god. If ONE person goes to a 'Hell' then this God is not just, by his own standards. Would you like to discuss this point of view (it has to do with free will) or should I just leave it at that?

[Tuomas]

When did I even quote such a word... bah, forget it.

[SSH]

If "Heaven" is being with God for eternity and "Hell" is not being with God for eternity, and God forces someone into being with him who doesn't want to be (say, for example, a Satanist) then is that just by God's standards, or anyone else's?

[Sylvr]

If God created us all to go to heaven, we would not have free will. Instead, we would be like robots, programmed to love and help everyone. Rather than this, because He is a loving God, He gave humans free will-- the choice to return to the ways of their maker or to continue down the path to destruction.

[Helm]

If "Heaven" is being with God for eternity and "Hell" is not being with God for eternity, and God forces someone into being with him who doesn't want to be (say, for example, a Satanist) then is that just by God's standards, or anyone else's?

if that is 'Hell' then awesome, SSH. No quarell there. Just nothingness in the absence of god, for those without faith suits me fine!

SilverTrumpet, your argumentation is very flawed, but I'll leave you to consider it on your own as I extended the question only to SSH because although he's a believer, I find him very open (as well as aware) to various religious implications and freewill scenarios. I will not even try to explain how 'free will' means nothing if the choices we make with that will are either destruction or faith.

[Nacho]

@ Silver Trumpet:
In that case God has given us the Earth, losing all control over the things and beings over its surface (That' s free will, no? We can do everything we can, no? We can kill all the animals, or provoque an earthquake by bombing the San Andreas earthcrack (It's that the English name?)

Then... Why worshipping It? It has abandoned us, and we learned to spend a whole life without Its help. The only reason should be ensuring a place in Heaven, but logic dictates that if It is really fair, It should' t care about if we believe or not (Because then, It should be a fascist God which condemns 3 billion of humans of going to Hell...)

If you really think of it, the best moment in the life of the parents is when the kids, after growing, finally can manage to live alone, go away of home and get a family. If you think carefully, God, after settings the base of its religion with the old gospel, and changing the direction of the message by sending Its son, could be waiting for a third moment of the Religion, when the mankind finally can life without worshipping It.

That could be the only way to give any sense to an old Gospel full of wars, rage and big miracles. It needed to create the people, so, he helped the Jews, the Earth where Its seed was going to grow, and if a miraculous intervention by It was needed, who cares?. In the new Gospel there' s no need to be so though... No need to destroy the walls of Jericho, or opening the seas...

And now, after rewarding us with the knowleadge of that the earth is not flat, and that the Sun is in the middle of the system, he gives us the final reward... No need of It!

Cool, eh? The best of all is that, as the Bible is contradictory, vague, and full of different interpretations, nobody can tell me I am wrong! ^_^