Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

[Helm]

you undersmart-mouth you, Nacho!!

[Nacho]

It' s true... Some of the arguments made me laugh. "God exists because Earth is a perfect circumference..."

Two lies in a sentence... that' s a record.

[Babar]

Hahahaha...it makes you happy? Does it make you happy that "christians" burnt people like YOU a few years ago (A few years ago? How old are you, Helm?)?

I'm not really a christian, so I don't care. People like me were generally very far from christians who burnt people at the stake a few years ago.

Interesting analysis of me, though. I can understand people thinking I have solipsistic tendencies, but....pantheistic? Where did that come from?

[Tuomas]

Then what are you all fighting about in this thread if it's Christians, Spiritualists and White Magicians only?

[Helm]

Hahahaha...it makes you happy? Does it make you happy that "christians" burnt people like YOU a few years ago (A few years ago? How old are you, Helm?)?

At least we were burned for being hardcore awesome atheists, not slightly-different-yet-the-same theists. And I've been around for 3 years now.

Interesting analysis of me, though. I can understand people thinking I have solipsistic tendencies, but....pantheistic? Where did that come from?

From the 'what you desire to be deified happens. Natural consequence that everything is partly godly.

[Babar]

Hoy, I got my holy wafer blessed by the Pope himself! I bet that's enough for me to be admitted in here.

Helm, I didn't say that 'whatever you desire to be deified happens'. Assuming you're talking about what I'm talking about, I just said that the desire for knowing teh Truth all comes from the same Source.

[TheYak]

Does God exist?
Is There a God?
Just feuling this even more. I'm not an out and out christian, the only reason I most likely have a belief in GOD is because it was drilled into me from tender age by my parents forcing me to church every sunday. So I'm not really on a side here.

This post seemed less inspired and more judgmental than most of the less reluctant Christians' replies had.  That's quite the assumption that nobody debating theology in the thread has any clue what they're talking about.  I also had it drilled into me from a young age (not quite the right term, since it was less forced than there simply being no alternative to the perceived truth), but somehow managed to make the leap outside of the mental box I'd been occupying.  I've got a definite anti-religious bias, particularly when it comes to Christianity, but I strive to at least understand the perspective of its believers and probably have at least some inkling having had significant exposure to it. 

The links had to be quoted in case anybody missed them before.  As I'd mentioned, it's the same trivial nonsense that's been used for self-justification since I was a wee lad.  Not only are they unfounded and occasionally ridiculous assertions (Must be a god because the planet's perfect for life and with any deviation of X life wouldn't be possible -- this totally ignores the obvious), but they also make no better argument for a divine creator than they do extra-terrestrial life, let alone being proof of a Christian Yahweh cum Jesus combo.

I'm quite certain that most posters here realize the idiocy of internet-based religious debate (or the same debate in any form, for that matter), but that doesn't stop it from being an interesting exercise that does prove to be a learning experience (even if only about semi-anonymous internet personalities), even if nobody's faith is shaken, renewed or inspired. 

[Helm]

Once again Yak, thank you for posting.

[calacver]

not worth it.

[Las Naranjas]

Hmm, what a load of crap. Interesting? Kiddies = internet. The kiddies of AGS think, hmm, helm is sooo cool, he uses such big words and is so rude and posts in every thread he doesn't know a  diddly squat about, he quotes big sentences from other people and run them through Word and ups the words even more, he is my hero, and others follow in his extremely aggressive posting regime. So when I grow up I wanna be a Helm, I'll be just like him, I'll think I'm smarter than just about everybody that exists.

Deary, it's church time. F** you mom, I'm not going to church cause helm says God doesn't exist and he is a God.

You are preaching for the devil and recruiting a whole new generation of demonic little kiddies who will burn down schools and swear at their mothers. Well done.

Goodbye AGS.

It's a good thing I'm not religous.

[Nikolas]

I would like to thank the above poster for sharing with us the deleted post by calcaver.

[Helm]

buh

[Nacho]

Bye Calacver! Take care! 

[EagerMind]

if someone can prove to me the inexistence of God, I'll accept that.

An interesting idea. I wonder what exactly it would take to accomplish this? I also wonder who the burden of proof would fall on (the provers or disprovers)? I imagine one's stance on this would depend on how religious one is.

Maybe both sides can take comfort(?) in the fact that establishing proof in the real world is nigh impossible. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, even our scientific theories are "just" theories that have so far been supported by experimental evidence.

Seeing as a theory must provide testable predictions, I wonder how someone would even go about testing the existence of God? What kind of experiment would support the existence (or nonexistence) of God? But certainly the existence of a god must have some observable impact on the nature of reality?

Or I suppose we could look at it the way I saw it cleverly put in an investment book I recently read:

1. God doesn't exist.
2. God exists.

Suppose you're wrong. In the 1st case, you'll end up spending an eternity in hell. In the 2nd case, you've needlessly tried to live a good, ethical life. Which is worse?

[Helm]

I don't get those that only feel the need to be good because otherwise god would punish them. How about being good because it works? For the community and for the individual.

[MrColossal]

1. God doesn't exist.
2. God exists.

Suppose you're wrong. In the 1st case, you'll end up spending an eternity in hell. In the 2nd case, you've needlessly tried to live a good, ethical life. Which is worse?

meanwhile I've wasted half my life in church/praying/reading the bible/fearing for my friends and family who are going to hell/worry if I'm going to hell/worrying if I'm leading a godly life/etc

Believing in a god "Just in case" is one of the stupidest reasons to believe in a god.

also, one can test the claims made of believers in god. Prayer affects the real world in some way, test it.

[Erenan]

Of course, it's important to distinguish between the specific beliefs held by individuals and the matter of God's existence. It's very easy to find theists with frighteningly poorly thought out worldviews to demolish.

[EagerMind]

I don't get those that only feel the need to be good because otherwise god would punish them. How about being good because it works? For the community and for the individual.

No disagreements here.

Believing in a god "Just in case" is one of the stupidest reasons to believe in a god.

I wasn't making a case one way or another. I did say I got the passage from an investment book; I was being a little tongue-in-cheek. But what is a good reason to belive in a god? To go to heaven? Certainly that's the promise of belief, but is that any better of a reason?

also, one can test the claims made of believers in god. Prayer affects the real world in some way, test it.

For example? I wasn't trying to belittle anyone's religion or deny the existence of God. I was merely hypothesizing that if god exists, then he's a part of our physical reality, and thus there should be evidence of his existence. Certainly that's a reasonable argument? If you know of some experimental evidence that I'm not aware of, please clue me in!

Of course, it's important to distinguish between the specific beliefs held by individuals and the matter of God's existence.

True, but establishing the facts behind the matter can help clear up a lot of argument. I can claim that I believe the world is flat - after all, despite what everyone says, it still looks flat to me, and I haven't circled it either - but I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. It'd be nice if we could do the same thing with all the fundamentalists who engage in terrorism, violence, discrimination, and countless other atrocities in the name of god. Probably wouldn't stop them from acting out, but at least they wouldn't be able to justify it with religion anymore.

[Erenan]

Establishing the facts about people's beliefs? Well, of course. I'm not debating that. All I'm saying is that while you may be able to demonstrate that specific beliefs about God are flawed, that's a far cry from demonstrating that God himself doesn't exist.

I don't get those that only feel the need to be good because otherwise god would punish them. How about being good because it works? For the community and for the individual.

I agree with this as well. In fact, I'd say that we call things good because they work for the benefit of the community and the individual, so it's tied in with the word itself.

I wasn't making a case one way or another. I did say I got the passage from an investment book; I was being a little tongue-in-cheek. But what is a good reason to belive in a god? To go to heaven? Certainly that's the promise of belief, but is that any better of a reason?

I'd say that's the same reason MrColossal was criticizing. Anyway, I think a good reason to believe in God would be the straightforward one: Your first-hand experiences and observations suggest to you that God exists. On a personal level, I think people usually want God to exist because they want to know that there is some objective meaning to their lives, and God's existence guarantees that there is some purpose, some end bigger than people. And if people can be swept up in that greater end, then it feels good. It feels reassuring. It feels romantic and adventurous.

On the other hand, many people believe in God simply because they've been raised to believe in God, and they're simply afraid of the idea that what they've always clung to is wrong, wrong, wrong. Along the same lines, many people are afraid that abandoning such a belief in God would cause emotional distress for their family or friends.

[Helm]

What sort of experience could it be that would seem to directly suggest that such a huge deal such as an omnipotent, eternal and all-powerful creator exists, I don't know what it could be.

I am not a huge fan of Occamizing everything, but when you have an experience, you first try to see how it would be explainable in some simpler means than just inventing a huge whole theology about it.

Even if I saw god in my dreams and he told me 'Helm, you undersmart heretic, you're creating a demon child army with which to attack south africa, please stop that or I will have to punish you, naughty boy!' I'd first think this is a psychological manifestation of some sort, due to emotional pressure because calacver doesn't like me before I'd say 'but of course! God exists!'.

Seriously, even if god split the skies and stared me right in the face, I'd sooner think I have unwittingly digested psychotropic drugs than that an omnipotent, all-powerful being with a kickass beard has just presented itself to me.

Erenan, take yourself out of the social context in which you were born and raised in, and put yourself in the jungle, little jungle boy. Now repeat that scenario that made you go 'yes, God exists', while having no knowledge of that this god concept is, and tell me if you theoretically would still arrive at the same conclusion. Of course, this type of ignorance would also mean that if you saw thunder strike you wouldn't think 'electrical discharge' you'd think 'holy fuck!' but let's not put the two in the same bag: God doesn't require any sort of indoctorination to believe in him. does he?