I stumbled across this link, and opened it, for a bit of a laugh.
http://www.churchofsatan.com
I didn't know quite what I was expecting, but I wasn't expecting something of this calibre. It doesn't even sound like a religion - it sounds like a protest against catholicism, and at times even comes close to Von Glower's philosophy. Be sure to check out, under Theory - Practice:
The Nine Satanic Statements
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
The Nine Satanic Sins
Some of it is quite reasonable, and you can clearly see where everything else is coming from. Now, I don't want to start another hot-religion-thread, God knows we have enough of them (God, in this case, being CJ, the forums' owner. Implicit pun which is only funny at 1.30am), but some of the points are, indeed, rather interesting, and are so clearly aimed at some principles of catholicism that we can't help but rethink some of those catholic principles. For instance,
Quote4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
Accourse, a world full of Satanists like this would be as bad or as good as a world full of Catholics (but both would be preferable to a world full of hard-boiled Puritans!).
EDIT - Should I, in the morning, look at this thread in a more awake state of mind and stare in wonderment, unable to understand how I could have ever posted it, I'll disavow any knowledge of any of this at all, and brain-wash myself in order to forget all about it, and maybe someday repeat the mistake because forgetting it means learning nothing from it.
Is this the Anton LaVey Church of Satan, or is this something else?
Never mind... it is. They seem like a bunch of geeks who are trying to form their own religion. Of course, they deal with witchcraft and stuff, but they're really a joke. I remember something Helm said a while back:
Quote from: Helm
Lavey and his so call church of satan are anything but devilworshippers. They're plastic-card-carrying rational egoists who desire to belong to some sekrit club and have sex with each other as if it's a big blaphsemous ritual. It's not. It's just old bald people having sex with each other every other saturday dressed in goat skins. They don't believe in Satan. They don't believe in anything other than fun.
That's basically what most Satanists are. Some of them may actually be evil or whatever, but a lot of them just want a 'religious' reason to have sex all the time.
Sounds cool.
I think I wanna join. My local Knight of Columbus are becoming way too quiet these years. I think I have now a clue where they all gone.
I'm actually trying out Satanism. I kind of felt disconnected from God, and figured I'd try it for 30 days, to see what it's like. Seriously.
Acually, it's got a lot of interesting points.
1) Points out a lot of inconsistancies in the Bible.
2) Points out possibilties that the Bible "lifted" a lot from other religions, by comparing them.
3) A different kind of thinking. Catholiscism is about holding yourself back for God, Satanism is pretty much just doing whatever you want.
4) Interesting Propoganda- Some documents talk about a possible ancient conspiracy about Christianity being a farce made up by the Jews. I really don't know if I believe that, but it's nevertheless amusing.
In any case, I'm trying out the Joy of Satan stuff. The LeVaye guy is a bit more depressing, but all documents of Satanism say it doesn't matter how you worship.
It's actually kind of nice, really. I'm not scared of the dark anymore. And, more confidence so far.
But, don't condemn something you don't know about. Read into it. If we can understand the basic principles of religions, it helps us understand why people do the things they do.
And with that, I give out a big "HAIL SATAN."
In any case, don't worry about me. I chose to just try this out for 30 days, and if I don't like it, I can tell Satan "I don't want to do this anymore.", and then I won't have to do it.
Well, some people like Aliester Crowley strongly believes in stuff like using the energy in sexual intercourse to conduct wichcraft.
Although, I do agree with steel Drummer that thee are a lot of people who join this religion just to have sex, especially since a lot of movies make these rituals seem like S&M or something.
Alliance: The fact that you accept Satan's existence means you also must accept God's existence. In such a case, would you really want to be on the losing team? Just curious, 'cause frankly you sound like you don't know what you're getting into.
QuoteIn any case, don't worry about me. I chose to just try this out for 30 days, and if I don't like it, I can tell Satan "I don't want to do this anymore.", and then I won't have to do it.
This isn't like trying a new hair cream for a month
Quote from: Tiki on Thu 07/06/2007 04:39:41
Alliance: The fact that you accept Satan's existence means you also must accept God's existence. In such a case, would you really want to be on the losing team? Just curious, 'cause frankly you sound like you don't know what you're getting into.
QuoteIn any case, don't worry about me. I chose to just try this out for 30 days, and if I don't like it, I can tell Satan "I don't want to do this anymore.", and then I won't have to do it.
This isn't like trying a new hair cream for a month
Actually, I believe in just Satan right now, AS God. Therefore, the Christian/Jewish concept of God is a false God if you are a Satanist.
And in any case, I'm only trying it out for 30 days to see if it works out. If it does, I'll post here.
EDIT: It sort of is like trying haircream for a month. You're trying something new, a different way of doing things, a different way of approaching a problem and solving things.
I'm not asking YOU to be a Satanist. I'm just broadening my horizons.
I read the satanic bible, was quite interesting. A lot of my friends read it as well, not really with the intent to pursue it with any kind of interest, but just as an interesting read. And to me that's all it was as well. Much more enjoyable than the Christian bible in my opinion. Some interesting points, but the same can be said for any religion really. I think I'll just stick with Athiesm.
Quote from: Tiki on Thu 07/06/2007 04:39:41
Alliance: The fact that you accept Satan's existence means you also must accept God's existence. In such a case, would you really want to be on the losing team?
To say that someone's religion - any religion - is a "losing team" is extremely arrogant and intolerant. To believe in existence of God and Satan doesn't mean you have to believe what the bible tells about them - theistic satanists can consider bible to be worthless christian propaganda, and have every reason to believe their side is the "winning team".
None of the satanists I personally know represent
theistic satanism, ie. believe in existence of God or Satan as such. As far as I know, those who do are a minority of people who would classify themselves as satanists - most of them are atheists or agnostics. They see Satanism as a personal philosophy rather than a religion. Atheistic Satanists generally see "rituals" by Satan's worshippers as childish and useless as they see other religious rites.
If Christianity acknowledges Satan, why does satanism discount God?
Sure Satanism is the antithesis of Christianity?
Alliance, I don't think you can just TRY a religion, a religion is a belief, how can you try a belief? You either believe it or you don't.
Quote from: Zooty on Thu 07/06/2007 08:15:30
If Christianity acknowledges Satan, why does satanism discount God?
Sure Satanism is the antithesis of Christianity?
Depending on the type of Satanism you subscribe to, some discount and some don't. Some forms of Satanism could certainly be called variations of Christianity, while many are purely atheistic philosophies.
In any sense Satanism is not just flipside of all aspects of Christian faith, it just focuses on different priorities and sees things from a different angle. There's certainly Good and Evil aspects in both of them (depending on how you define good and evil, I suppose).
Zooty, it sounds odd, but he certainly can try out a religion. He can see whether it speaks to him, whether it means something to him. I can decide to go to Tibet for a month and catch a glimpse of Budhism in its truest form, and if it moves me I can delve deeper, and stay there for a month more, try to understand what it's all about. AFter that, I can go away unchanged, still the same atheist, or I can definitely convert. I don't even have to attend rituals - I don't really believe a religion is *about* rituals, they're just something for you to focus your belief on.
Interestingly, these Satanists religions do what the Catholic church has always been afraid to do - it moves the focus. In a Satanic religion, from what I read in this thread (so if anything I say is wrong go ahead and correct me), what matters is what *you* want to do. You, the person, the individual, the Man, are the focus of everything - ultimately, it's up to you, as opposed to some distant God who is simultaneously Father, Guide and Judge. It's not really surprising, is it, that it should have come up in such times as these, when individualism is getting stronger and stronger as a notion? Heck, in effect it's pretty much a religious version of Anarchy - each individual does what he wants, with his own drives, and if there are consequences he'll take them.
EDIT - Oh, and Alliance, by believing in Satan you believe in God, as the history of Satan begins when Morningstar becomes the Adversary. Even if you didn't, you can't believe that a coin has only the "heads" side, not if you know that it has two sides. The "tails" side is also there. However false you may claim it to be, God and Satan are, in the Catholic pantheon (and why did I distinguish between Satanistic and Catholic? Surely I meant Christian, since Satan is part of the Catholic pantheon, as much as Lucifer, Gabriel, and other various saints, angels and demons and whatnot), two sides of the same coin. Deny that he's your God, but don't deny that he's a God. For that matter, Christians should also admit Satan is a God. Simply not their God.
In my school, there are some satanists too. I have never understood them. What they actually believe? They believe that Satan created the Earth or is satanism just a moral codec? Then whats whit the symbols?
I really want to know if those satanist take it seriously or is it just an ironic protest against chatolic church. If the last one, then most people are satanists... Only difference is that most of the people don't dress in black or something to show everybody what moral code they are following, they are just who they are.
True satanists burn churches and make sacrifices, like in Sweden!
Yeah! And true catholics burn witches! Come on, people, let's find us some heretics to burn! I'll buy the beers!
Quote from: radiowaves on Thu 07/06/2007 12:07:50
True satanists burn churches and make sacrifices, like in Sweden!
That's just prejudice. I haven't burnt any churches for years.
Not intentionally, anyway.
Satanic Church = Atheism that has been given a funny name to piss off christians and to stand out of the crowd. They do not worship any god or such, but only nature and human itself. Therefore its not really a religion, its atheism. I've read the book. A few of my friends claim to be members of the Satanic Church.
I am not.
Well I dont like any relegion but I kinda like the Satan in South Park his gay I kinda like 'im
SOUTH PARK RULEZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Alliance
2) Points out possibilties that the Bible "lifted" a lot from other religions, by comparing them.
I think other religions 'lifted' stuff from Christianity. If you compare even just the 'creation story' from each religion, you'll see that most other religion's 'legends' are very similar to the Adam and Eve tale. And Islam borrows heavily from Judaism. I heard some story once about a 'black stone'- if I recall correctly, the stone was originally white, but had turned black because Adam and Eve had sinned. I've heard a few other stories that point to Judaism/Christianity as well.
Quote from: Zooty
If Christianity acknowledges Satan, why does satanism discount God?
Sure Satanism is the antithesis of Christianity?
Alliance, I don't think you can just TRY a religion, a religion is a belief, how can you try a belief? You either believe it or you don't.
I agree. For example: MrColossal is an atheist. He can't just say ''Oh, why don't I become a Christian for a week? If I hate it, I'll go back to my old beliefs."
Another thing: I remember you saying that you were a christian before, does that mean your family members are christians too? What do they think about this 'temporary conversion'?
Quote from: WHAM
Satanic Church = Atheism that has been given a funny name to piss off christians and to stand out of the crowd. They do not worship any god or such, but only nature and human itself. Therefore its not really a religion, its atheism. I've read the book. A few of my friends claim to be members of the Satanic Church.
I am not.
On a side note: WHAM has a point; I was checking out the website, and I don't see anywhere where it acknowledges Satan as a deity. The religion sounds more like extreme humanism with some satanic elements thrown in for good measure. It almost reminds of of the Sith- with all that talk about power, and inner nature, etc.
Quote from: Alliance
Actually, I believe in just Satan right now, AS God. Therefore, the Christian/Jewish concept of God is a false God if you are a Satanist.
Satanism teaches that Jesus/God is a lie,
but they don't accept Satan as a god. They say that each person is their own god. Very atheistic and/or humanistic, and if you want to be a 'good' Satanist, you should know these things. Unless you're twisting the religion to suit what you want...
EDIT: I just realized that I said something false- Satanists
believe that Jesus/God is a 'god', however they don't think He's not powerful enough to suit their needs/overcome Satan. I guess they're tired of having to ask God for help, and they want to do everything on their own.
yeah but to be fair, christianity did lift A LOT from early pagan religions too.
easter is a christianized version of a pagan celebration called eostre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre
the way i see it, its better if you can just have your own individual beliefs, maybe based on a number of religions (also a way of worming out the crap in some religions like no masturbation - :o)
Steel Drummer, I can see where you're going with this, but I have to disagree.
Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, yes?
Therefore, I can believe in Satan as my deity (seeing as I believe in the Joy of Satan stuff, which does exactly that, rather than LeVaye's theories)
Yes, I can try it for a month. The thing is, it's my life, my body. If I want to try something new, why not? You only get to live once, and maybe, just maybe, you'll pick a path that's right for you.
Also, it kind of makes me a little sick that Christians push their religious beliefs on everyone else. I used to do that all the time without realizing it, but Satanism has opened my eyes a little bit to that. It's really annoying.
Quote from: Steel Drummer on Thu 07/06/2007 15:33:21
I think other religions 'lifted' stuff from Christianity. If you compare even just the 'creation story' from each religion, you'll see that most other religion's 'legends' are very similar to the Adam and Eve tale.
Most religions have somewhat similar creation story, but since Christianity certainly isn't the oldest religion in the world, it means that they have been influenced by already existing stories, not the other way around.
Funny thing, I just wrote a 5 page essay on that last tuesday for my entrance examination. But since I just did it, I won't do it again.
I have no interest in satan, or god or what so ever that makes people do stupid things, and I'd rather ignore the whole thing, but I feel like I'm really not allowed to do that. I'd rather smoke joint or two most occasionally than join a cult or a religion (again). I'm not into magical and mysterious things that happen to people that have died a long ago and who I don't know. Since nothing really happened to me that would change my wiev, I'd rather not.
There are two kind of satanists
1.The one who eats human brain,rape girls,make sacrifices and draw pentagrams
all over his place
2.I dunno bout them but they must be a bit more normal then the 1st kind
Anyway.....
SOUTH PARK RULEZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Steel Drummer on Thu 07/06/2007 15:33:21And Islam borrows heavily from Judaism.Quote
In islam there were 4 books. Injil, taurat, etc (I don't really listen to my teacher) and three of the books were tampered with through the years (doesn't Injil sound like ANGEL to you?) and the Al-quran was the only book left that was not tampered with. the religion yahudi (Jewish) was believed to have been a religion made by people who mixed all four together. As much as I hate my supposed religion, I just couldn't help myself.
Steel Drummer I'm not saying that you are wrong or that you are right. I don't really believe in religion (well, I kinda do, but in my own way).
Y'know what it's my parent's fault I feel like I have to be defensive...
Well what I think is that all religions (that are not modern) are stories written in different points of view. It's all just one story told differently, Like come on! these books, tomes, stones, whatever, they were made, written like years ago! And were supposed to have faith? faith, to believe in something and not question it? like come on! For all we know all this talk about prophets and jesus and stuff could just be the 'politics' of that time. know what I mean?
AND GOD! I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DO THIS QUOTING THING! I QUOTED MY OWN MESSAGE! >_<;
It's funny how I can count the number of intelligent comments using only numbers below zero.
I think that's a new record.
Fish, does that mean there are no intelligent comments on this thread? :P
Alliance, of course Christianity (or shall we say, Catholicism) pushes their beliefs. Want to go back as far as colonization times? :) It's simply part of our culture, now. Even when you say harmless things like "Oh God", or "Jesus wept", or "To hell with it!", or even "Hail-mary-fulla-grace-let-me-win-this-stock-car-race"... you may or may not be a believer, but you have been brought up in a Christian environment. Of course it shows.
creation of the world doesn't concern me.
if it was created by someone, then "well done to that person!" and if not, then whatever.
Heh, after seeing The 'Burbs (loooong, looong time ago), every time someone mentions Satan I can't help remembering that hilarious satanistic chant:
"I want to kill everyone,
Satan is good, Satan is our pal!"
;D
Quote from: Alliance on Thu 07/06/2007 16:31:08
Steel Drummer, I can see where you're going with this, but I have to disagree.
Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, yes?
Therefore, I can believe in Satan as my deity (seeing as I believe in the Joy of Satan stuff, which does exactly that, rather than LeVaye's theories)
Yes, I can try it for a month. The thing is, it's my life, my body. If I want to try something new, why not? You only get to live once, and maybe, just maybe, you'll pick a path that's right for you.
Also, it kind of makes me a little sick that Christians push their religious beliefs on everyone else. I used to do that all the time without realizing it, but Satanism has opened my eyes a little bit to that. It's really annoying.
It's funny how you're converting from Christianity to Satanism- most ex-christians convert to Buddhism or Islam or something, but you've converted to exactly the opposite of Christianity. :)
Well I think all relegious people is a scared little bunny!!!!
They feard from death so much that they can't live without thinking he/she gonna
live for eternity in another world.
Oh, you really hit the nail on the head...
Quote from: Wtcq on Fri 08/06/2007 10:03:20
Well I think all relegious people is a scared little bunny!!!!
They feard from death so much that they can't live without thinking he/she gonna
live for eternity in another world.
very respectful to people's beliefs, aren't we? ::)
Indeed. No offense to Wtcq, but I find his posts rather offensive...
I don't because it's his opinion, and I actually agree. But I won't say it out loud.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm
Quote from: Tuomas on Fri 08/06/2007 16:26:27
I don't because it's his opinion, and I actually agree. But I won't say it out loud.
I also agree and I will say it out loud. Other peoples beliefs do not automatically deserve respect.
Well, let's see if we can't defuse that particular bomb by rephrasing that a bit, shall we?
In the broadest sense of the world, I have an opinion that agrees with Wtcq on one or two points, though I would definitely be forced to say it in a much different way. I have nothing against religious people - one of my best friends from high school, for example, is a Jehovah's Witness, and a particularly devout one for that matter. It was a great and very close friendship, because even with his religion's apparent policy, he doesn't follow the cultist attitude of disassociating with the heretics, like myself. We have discussed religion at length, and I seem to have convinced him well enough that I'm a lost cause, which is exactly where I like to be. Evangelism is annoying to people that want to be left alone.
I have a lot of respect for people who don't base their lives on or around religion, but still have a strong moral code, of sorts. When someone has no belief in divine retribution keeping them from doing whatever they damned-well please, and yet decide to be a benefit to society as a form of social pragmatism, I find that somewhat commendable. I, myself, tend to look out for number one in the grander scheme of things, but more often than not it includes - even precludes - acts of 'selflessness', and general benefits to the world around me. By that same token, I have the utmost respect for religious people who put little stock in the afterlife, or don't let that or 'God's will' sway their decisions, but base what they do on a moral background.
It's all essentially based around peoples' motivations for doing what they do, I think. If someone does live only for the afterlife, I would describe that lifetime as a bit of a pity, and even (at risk of being insensitive) wasted. I can't agree, though, with the generalization that religious people are only interested in the afterlife - take Jehova's witnesses (Being one of the few religions I think I know a little bit about): When I, in an attempt to antagonize him, gave him a logical run-down of his chances of getting into heaven, based off of the 144,000/resurrection principle of his own religion, he said "It doesn't matter to me if I am one of the few, as long as I do my part while I'm alive", or something to that effect. I respect that.
Now, I also believe that most religions are needlessly hostile an unaccepting of one another, considering how alike they actually are. I can understand, so to speak, the tension between Christians and the Romans during their Empire's reign from a purely religiously-based standpoint - the Romans believed that in their Polytheistic world, the active denouncement of polytheism by the Christians was a threat to the Empire, as it would cause the gods to become angered - which I believe was also more justified in a world where thunder and lightning were acts of Jupiter, as opposed to charge separation. The risk of the ire of Jupiter was a large cause of concern, I would imagine. I don't think this necessitated mass slaughter and the use of 'unarmed christian vs. tiger' as a form of entertainment, but there was a form of justification, which I don't think exists as much between many of the monotheistic religions. As many have said before, religion has been the reason behind no small number of atrocious acts in the past, yet another reason I'm not a big fan.
So my philosophy is, read it if you like, but I don't subscribe to that particular magazine. I don't even like the genre.
Now, so that I'm not completely off topic, I think that some of the principles of satanism, as described are sound - it's a distorted form of monotheistic/christian faith, but it teaches people to be self-reliant, and not to look to miracles to get things accomplished. This seems to me to be a very reasonable, and realist concept. Enjoy your life while you can. Whatever the ultimate result is, I suppose if someone thinks their life is justified, it's a good thing, isn't it?
I think some people who simply believe something don't deserve to be insulted because of it. I personally couldn't care less, but I'm not going to force everyone else to think that way.
Good answer, SpacePirateCaine! :D
It just bugs me that people put each other down for what they believe in. I think that your beliefs are the core of who YOU are, and if someone's going to put you down for that without making the effort of ever knowing you, that's a pretty low thing to do.
Thanks, Alliance. I'm sure I could've said it in a much more concise manner, but I guess I often let the opportunity to be wordy take hold, since I spend most of the day tailoring my words as to be understandable to people who don't speak English as a first language.
I believe in ethnic purity, and that only one race was created to rule the world, so the rest are just inbread scum. I also believe that bunnies were made from clay, but because people didn't want to build bunnyhouses, they became alive and now they're the rebirth of antichrist. I also believe that Hitler lives, in everything that is good in this world.
Ah, gotta love the shock factor of the AGS boards! ;D
Just to clear it up, for me tolerance and respect are two different things. If a belief is not harmful I'm ready to tolerate it. Everybody's free to believe what they want, even if I don't agree with it or find it stupid, as long as they don't do damage to others. Respect however is a much bigger idea. I respect things that are actually worth something to me. My family, friends, lot of effort put into a work of art etc. If you give it to any silly idea that's around you decrease the worth of respect. Respect is to be earned, not given. I find most religious beliefs silly and I see no reason why I should automatically respect them. Saying that every belief deserves respect is fake political correctness.