HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!

[TheYak]

Yak dashes back into the terminally-hijacked thread in order to giggle to himself after reading the phrase "high-ranking . . . monk", maybe because it's 6:45 AM

[SSH]

Have you fully read both sides of the discussion above? It seems to me that so far everyone has agreed that it is not an idea, but rather a proven historical fact.

That doesn't mean its right. At one point everybody thought the sun revolved around the earth.

It is a historical fact, for example, that Constantine was not trying to supplant, but rather assimilate.

Then if its a fact you won't have a problem quoting documentary evidence.

Here's some facts:

The celebration date of Good Friday and the Ressurrection was debated by Polycarp and some other guy long before Constantine came along

The word for Easter in every langauge except English and German is based on the Jewish word for Passover, NOT on Eostre (which is all down to Bede's supposition). At best, any connection between Ishtar and Easter is geographically and linguistically distant, and tangential.

Of COURSE the date is astrological. Days are astrological. Years are astrological. Months are astrological!

[esper]

Sources? Google search it, man. Look up Constantine, the Edict of Milan, the Council of Nicea, the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, "In Hoc Signo Vinces," Eusebius, or the Roman emporer that finalized everything, Theodosius... or do what a lot of Christian people are afraid to do: ask a pagan about the dangerously close comparisons in the festivals. Citing sources is often a very bad idea, since matters of veracity and authenticity come up... Just search for these things using (nonbiased) sources you trust. And by nonbiased, I don't mean Catholic church fathers.

The celebration date of Good Friday and the Ressurection may have been debated by Polycarp and some other guy centuries before Constantine came along (it would only really have been one or two centuries), but not by those names... And if sources say it is by those names, the sources must therefore be of Catholic and therefore biased origin.

The "word for easter" argument makes good sense, and proves that the English speaking and German speaking peoples of the world don't know exactly what they are blathering about. The Hebrew word is "Pechach," and the Koine Greek word is "Pascha." The word "Easter" is used when "pechach" is mentioned in the New Testament. This still doesn't mean anything. Why then is the term stemming from "Easter," "Ishtar," "Eostre," and "Ostara" used in English and German?

On the matter of Good Friday, why is it that Jesus was apparently only in the grave two days?

The answer is simple: He didn't actually die on "Good Friday." The Chaldeans offered cakes (hot cross buns) to Ishtar on the equivalent of the day we know as Good Friday. When the established church wanted to appease the paganistic people in order to "convert" them to Christianity, they moved the dates accordingly. Jesus actually died on the day of Preparation of Passover Week, which that year occurred on Wednesday (John 19:14, 31-42). Thursday was the Sabbath of the Passover. Friday, Christ was still in the tomb. Saturday was the "regular" Sabbath. Jesus arose after the Saturday Sabbath was concluded, which was the first day of the week, the day we know as Sunday (Mark 16:9; John 20:1). 

And about the date of easter itself:
"The practice of those following Rome was to celebrate Easter on the first Sunday after the earliest fourteenth day of a lunar month that occurred on or after March 21. During the Middle Ages this practice was more succinctly phrased as Easter is observed on the Sunday after the first full moon on or after the day of the vernal equinox." (Wikipedia, "Easter")

That's what I mean by astrological. It is not on a set, "static" date, but is rather an ambient holiday based on times and seasons. Passover is on different dates every year, too, because the Hebrew calendar was Lunar whereas the Gregorian calendar is solar. However, Passover is always on 15 Nissan every year (this changes because of the calendar differences). Easter, on the other hand, coincides with the full moon following the vernal equinox

And, for the final blow against any and all holidays:

"Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. (Is 1:13-14)"

But herein lies the thing: who really cares? We've been doing it for ages, and it's harmless. Like I said above, it didn't change the taste of my turkey at all. Paul said in I Corinthians chapter 8 that it shouldn't bother you to eat meat offered to idols. Only the JW's are stiff-necked enough to really give a rip about it. I don't. I was just mentioning the fact. I have a habit of sounding very argumentative... I meant no harm, and didn't want to blow things out of proportion like this. Especially not with you, SSH: you were the first person to (very warmly) greet me to these forums. I've not sat here and made vain religious arguments, but rather spoken on a subject which is historical, literary, hopefully interesting, and of no small discusion value. Just like everyone else, I've tried my best to speak on what I have myself looked into and found interesting, hoping to create worthwhile subject matter here in the forums. I never meant to hijack rharpe's thread, sound like a know-it-all or an annoying ass, or come of as aggressive or argumentative. If I have, it was not my intention. However, since I seem not to be at risk anymore, let me throw one more thing out that is meant to sound obnoxious:

I reckon that, even if a subject is historical, literary, logical, or common sensical, if it even touches on religion (even if it isn't religious apologetics or argument, but simply a discussion about someting that happened at some point in time involving a church), even the most mature of posters can't keep their britches on about it.

And at the risk of sounding like a Bible thumper, which I am not and pray God I never become;

"Great peace have they which love the Lord, and nothing shall offend them."

[Nikolas]

So if I get things straight:

Generally

SSH states that Christianity is "origninal",
where esper says that most celebrations in Christianity are not "original", but bassed on other religion celebrations.

Is this correct?

Well there is a simple explanation to this. I hbelieve that it did happen. And I believe that big guns had to meat head-to-head. Furthermore.
Cellebrations, as I have stated in other threads a couple of times, are there mostly for practical reasons and not for religious ones.

Religion to me means community. The big religious matters (and miracles, I believe at least for the Orthodox), are marriage, baptism, the wishing, the holy communion, and another 3 (I believe cause well 7 is the number!).

All the rest (celebrations), are there for different reasons. And the reasons are astronomical, are based on the daily lives of people, are the harvet, the autumn, the new year, etc...

So actually you are both right.

Christianity being a rather new religion, had to step and, well... steal most celebrations from other religions, who where already there. It did and does make sense. But on the other hand it was not done because Christian Elders where thieving raskals or anything, it was a necessity.

And of course after 2000 (not exactly aroudn 1900) things and pereptions and perspective on things (which is largely used in critics lounge!) have changed. And I actually do find kind of disgusting the figure of Santa Claus (which to Greece is St. Bill, actually, but not the Microsoft ass...), I will use him to say stories to my child, and find a way to bring them love and joy by bringing them present without having the guilt of spoiling them. It's not me that I'm bringin the presents it's Santa Clause. See? There is something practical to the guy, so why not?

I hope that this will help on the true meaning (according to me of course), of some things.

[rharpe]

Hey everyone!

The main reason for this thread was to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving and remind everyone that we owe our creator this special thanks... that's all.

I then put in a few things I was thankful for so that others would write down in response to what they are thankful for too, (not too many of you caught on.)

As soon as Nikolas asked me the simple question of "What's the origin of Thanksgiving?" We were all enlightened with some major, in-depth, historical references... It was like reading the "History Channel" on-line!

I don't mind if everyone talks about the origin of the holidays... even though that wasn't the main purpose of this thread. But to set the score straight, Christianity wasn't started until Christ founded it over 2000 years ago. The holidays that were mentioned before in this thread, were in fact, started by pagans. But remember this, Christianity was started by God Himself to override other false religions... and their customs, holidays, etc. So, as it was said before, you are all correct!

Thanksgiving has some Protestant element to it, (not Christian,) and it was started by the Puritans.

To look up more holidays... here are some links: General Encyclopedia || Catholic Encyclopedia

[esper]

Thanks, rharpe. I think you just saved my butt. I totally wasn't meaning to hijack your thread or sound like a knowitall or anything... I was going to PM you and apologize and make sure I hadn't offended you. I may have... well, heck, I did go overboard a bit.

People, when faced with something that opposes their particular world-view, will normally exhibit a "fight or flight" disassociative tendency. This is why, I believe, so many people have come to be distrustful and distasteful of people flying the flag of religion. When a secular humanist, pagan, evolutionist, complete layman, or what have you, supplies their idea to the religious person, rather than an intelligent, studied answer, the result is angry argument and the shutting out of the offending speaker.

I think everyone here did a good job of not doing that, although I did seem to rile SSH a bit (sorry, man. Like I said before, you were not someone I would have wanted to get into it with, and although both of us are entitled to our opinions, I hope I didn't offend you and that we can move on as fellow community members from here). HOWEVER, rharpe is a god. Pal, you and I might not see eye to eye on a lot of things, but I would rather have someone like you as a friend and an ally than someone who has all of my ideas and beliefs but is a stiff-necked cretin. Even I, who am now lauding this virtue in you, hardly possess it. You're a credit, bro.

[rharpe]

HOWEVER, rharpe is a god.

Thanks, but I'm not even a saint... far from it.

Pal, you and I might not see eye to eye on a lot of things, but I would rather have someone like you as a friend and an ally than someone who has all of my ideas and beliefs but is a stiff-necked cretin. Even I, who am now lauding this virtue in you, hardly possess it. You're a credit, bro.

I appreciate your praise. I tend to always get into religous arguments on the internet whether I initiate them or pour more fuel onto them. I don't try to, but when it's something you truly believe in you speak from that strength thats within. Everyone knows speaking of their beliefs, (concerning God, angels, saints, Heaven, miracles, Hell, and devils,) is practically impossible, yet we all still do it. I know many of you can't fully understand why Catholics "believe" in all these various incomprehensible dogmas... believe me, they're even harder to explain. Just remember, not everything in this world has a logical explanation... there will always be mysteries that will never be solved. This is why faith and tradition/works are very important.
Again, esper, like you already said, we may not see eye to eye, but we can still engage in conversation that will not heat up into some flame war. And for the record, all of you here are my friends, no matter what belief you have... just as long as you share the same dream that brought me here... ADVENTURE GAME DESIGNING! 

May God bless you all! (note: God is spelled with a capital "G" because it's a proper noun... and it denotes respect for our creator.)

[Helm]

I'd be all for god and religion and shit if it weren't for the fact that god raped me when I was 8 yrs old. It's hard to get over it.

[Blackthorne]

I'd be all for god and religion and shit if it weren't for the fact that god raped me when I was 8 yrs old. It's hard to get over it.

I totally agree with that, except there is no God and it was a man name Elroy.


Bt