HERE (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/10/12/international/i032154D50.DTL&feed=rss.news) is the article.
So what you think of it? They say that the main reason of the ban are stupid turists who go to Holland thinking: "Jeah! A LEGAL DRUG! I heard it's even more cool than cannabis."
It's sad if that really was the reason of the ban, because most of the turists aren't such amateurs and realize 'the point' of the shrooms and other psychedelics.
Of course the new law won't prevent anyone buying or gathering shrooms and maybe its even good thing that people need now get some info about shrooms before trying them, but still... smart shops are part of
dutch culture and you cant find such culture in any other place.
I feel guite lucky myself because i spent a week in holland just before they decided about the new law.
I hope this topic wont turn into "U USE DRUGS!!! I HOPE U DIE PAINFULLY!!!" conversation. Those posts are pointless and i would claim that i know the dangers of psycedelics much better than people who write such posts. Of course matter-of-fact critic is always welcome.
Ps. Psychedelics are ILLEGAL and this topic is ment to discuss about them, not to attract using them.
Actually, no, many of the tourists are "such amateurs" and don't realize the consequences of psychedelics. These are people who come to Amsterdam to do things that are illegal or unavailable in their home country - just like e.g. Swedes who come to Denmark because alcohol is more easily available there. Unsurprisingly, such people sometimes cause trouble.
QuoteIt's sad if that really was the reason of the ban, because most of the turists aren't such amateurs and realize 'the point' of the shrooms and other psychedelics.
What is "the point" of shrooms and other psychadelics? If people are using them to get their buzzes, whether they are "amateurs" or not (you can be a professional drug user? :P) then isn't that "the point" of taking them?
I'm rather indifferent to these types of recreational fungi, but perhaps the new law would put an end to the idiotic questions I get from people who hear of my European travels. The most common question is something like "You've been to Europe? Did you go to Amsterdam? *laugh/giggle/wink*". Here in the US, knowledge of the liberal drug laws in Holland tend to supersede any other pertinent information. The 45 year old dishwasher/stoner at my work knew all the stereotypical things about the country, but thought it was a city somewhere on the east coast of the US :P
I agree with Radiant since even on my side I can tell those who travel to Amsterdam from the US are many times people who don't know how to behave when going outside to collect their post let alone within another culture.
I disagree with this law because I disagree with the dutch political charade that came with it.
Bloody politics.
Quote from: Radiant on Sun 18/11/2007 17:21:41
Actually, no, many of the tourists are "such amateurs" and don't realize the consequences of psychedelics. These are people who come to Amsterdam to do things that are illegal or unavailable in their home country - just like e.g. Swedes who come to Denmark because alcohol is more easily available there. Unsurprisingly, such people sometimes cause trouble.
'Such amateurs' wasnt very good term :)
Quote from: Becky on Sun 18/11/2007 17:25:47
QuoteIt's sad if that really was the reason of the ban, because most of the turists aren't such amateurs and realize 'the point' of the shrooms and other psychedelics.
What is "the point" of shrooms and other psychadelics? If people are using them to get their buzzes, whether they are "amateurs" or not (you can be a professional drug user? :P) then isn't that "the point" of taking them?
Well.. that's exactly the problem i was talking about. Usualy people who havent tried shrooms might try them to 'get their buzzes', but that's not the idea.
Shrooms doesnt make you feel confused like drugs like alcohol or cannabis. 'The point' is that psychedelics let you see the world in completely different angle and every trip teaches a lot about the world and yourself. Of course its difficult to believe that 'a drug' can teach you something like that, but just for example shamans have used shrooms over 10000 years.
And yes, i think you can be a professional shroom user :) because you should know a lot of things about them before trying. Even if there is no scientific proof that shrooms cause any psysichal damage,
they can freak you out if you use them wrongly (or if you have schizophrenia).
Just for example, some basics:
-right dozing (not too strong for first time)
-setting(warm homelike atmosphere,good lighing, relaxing music (there is shamanic music made just for tripping))
-you never should try them alone.
-noise (caused by enviroment or drunken friends) can be really pressing.
-you should try them indoors. (There is different opinions about that tho)
-you should have an empty stomach when eating them.
Quote from: Disco on Sun 18/11/2007 17:54:57
perhaps the new law would put an end to the idiotic questions I get from people who hear of my European travels. The most common question is something like "You've been to Europe? Did you go to Amsterdam? *laugh/giggle/wink*".
I usually tell people quite openly that i eat shrooms couple times a year.
So I have same kind of problems with some people and it can be really annoying. ::)
It's actually banned now? I heared people where going to protest to stop this. Well I guess it didn't work then. Personally I don't know if banning these will really work. I mean now people have to get them in illigal ways and then you have no controle about what happens.
QuoteActually, no, many of the tourists are "such amateurs" and don't realize the consequences of psychedelics.
I am affraid that 'substance tourism' will always cause their share of problems.
Where I live, the legal age for alcool is 'olny' 18, that we deal well, but every Springbreak drunk US fratboys make the news.
Jumping from the 10th floor of an skycrapper might help you to see the life from a different angle, and it might not be very recommendable. I' ve read here some of the most used topics about drugs, and they still sound like crap to me.
Shamans have used them for 10000 years!
And? Have they seen something interesting? No... basically they were drugged people. No one has seen the cure for cancer after eating a mushroom.
Quote from: mchammer on Sun 18/11/2007 19:48:13
'The point' is that psychedelics let you see the world in completely different angle and every trip teaches a lot about the world and yourself.
That's a nice romantic notion, but that hardly applies to everybody. Effects are highly subjective and personal; I am reasonably certain that most people do not take drugs to learn about the world, and also that this doesn't actually
work that way for many.
Oh btw "professional" tends to mean that you make money from doing it.
Quote from: LUniqueDan on Sun 18/11/2007 20:42:10
Where I live, the legal age for alcool is 'olny' 18, that we deal well, but every Springbreak drunk US fratboys make the news.
Yep. Reminds me of my first weekend on the Chicago campus. Us international students knew what alcohol was, and the American freshmen did not. So they tried it, in vast quantities. The results where either hilarious or really sad, depending on how you look at it.
Quote from: mchammer on Sun 18/11/2007 19:48:13
but just for example shamans have used shrooms over 10000 years.
Please take a minute to read this:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 18/11/2007 21:12:11
Jumping from the 10th floor of an skycrapper might help you to see the life from a different angle, and it might not be very recommendable. I' ve read here some of the most used topics about drugs, and they still sound like crap to me.
Quote from: mchammer on Sun 18/11/2007 19:48:13
Even if there is no scientific proof that shrooms cause any psysichal damage,
they can freak you out if you use them wrongly (or if you have schizophrenia).
If millions of people eat substance witch changes your state of mind, everyone can understand that
bad things will happen to someone. But if you pay more attension to statistics, you can see that
deaths caused by mushrooms are very rare (and most of them are caused by eating wrong mushrooms).
And if you compare that to deaths caused by alcohol...
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 18/11/2007 21:12:11
Shamans have used them for 10000 years!
And? Have they seen something interesting? No... basically they were drugged people. No one has seen the cure for cancer after eating a mushroom.
Cure of cancer? No, shrooms dont turn people into scientists. (They might have saved me from cancer tho because i quit drinking and smoking after first trips i experienced.)
But have they seen something interesting? Short answer would be yes.
Quote from: Radiant on Sun 18/11/2007 21:16:01
That's a nice romantic notion, but that hardly applies to everybody. Effects are highly subjective and personal; I am reasonably certain that most people do not take drugs to learn about the world, and also that this doesn't actually work that way for many.
I know it sounds like 'a romantic notion' :). And yes, there is people who misuse shroom-alcohol combination as 'a partydrug' but usually that kind of people uses strong drugs like extacy,cocaine,heroin or amphetamine.
People who havent tried it can easily claim that people who eat shrooms are just hallucinating so strongly that they think they have seen something wise. I can say that's not true but of course i have no way to proof it in internet. Only thing i can say is that read about people's experiences.
Quote from: mchammer on Sun 18/11/2007 22:04:26
People who havent tried it can easily claim that people who eat shrooms are just hallucinating so strongly that they think they have seen something wise. I can say that's not true but of course i have no way to proof it in internet. Only thing i can say is that read about people's experiences.
I'm sure that
some people who take shrooms have a marvelous learning experience. It does not follow, however, that
all (or even many) people who take shrooms have such an experience.
Quote from: Radiant on Sun 18/11/2007 22:08:17
Quote from: mchammer on Sun 18/11/2007 22:04:26
People who havent tried it can easily claim that people who eat shrooms are just hallucinating so strongly that they think they have seen something wise. I can say that's not true but of course i have no way to proof it in internet. Only thing i can say is that read about people's experiences.
I'm sure that some people who take shrooms have a marvelous learning experience. It does not follow, however, that all (or even many) people who take shrooms have such an experience.
It's difficult for me to think that people wouldn't get such an experience. Of course wrongly used or if you arent strong minded (I dont mean that there are 'strong minded' and 'weak minded' persons, i just dont have better word for it) the experience can be very scary and bad, but i have never heard that anyone would think it wasnt learning.
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 18/11/2007 21:12:11
Jumping from the 10th floor of an skycrapper might help you to see the life from a different angle, and it might not be very recommendable. I' ve read here some of the most used topics about drugs, and they still sound like crap to me.
Shamans have used them for 10000 years!
And? Have they seen something interesting? No... basically they were drugged people. No one has seen the cure for cancer after eating a mushroom.
Uhm, the girl who killed herself
didn't use magic mushrooms!!! Media got it wrong.
So this arguements for not using drugs is crap too.
The dangers of magic mushrooms were investigated, a report was made. Apparently magic mushrooms are now safer than they were in 2000 and are still no threat to personal health or society. But the minister who called for an investigation still want magic mushrooms banned because of his political platform.
Bloody politics.
I took magic mushrooms a few years ago. And you could say I had a marvelous learning experience.
I learned that I'm never touching them again. I had a horrible time.
a) I was inexperienced. I don't even smoke weed let alone eating psychedelic fungi so it probably wasn't the recommended 'first drug'.
b) I was sitting in a room with about 3 or 4 kids that used to bully me a few years previously... they were ok with me then, but I still have harsh memories of them.
c) I took too many, because I didnt wait long enough for the first load to settle in and gobbled up some more impatiently. This turned out to be a bad move.
I basically thought I was in serious trouble for about 12 hours solid.. I didn;t think I was going to die, but I thought I was never going to go back to normal again and this is a very scary thought indeed. Looking back, the stuff I saw wasnt so scary, everything just went wonky and peoples heads looked big (we had been playing Goldeneye on DK mode before we took them) and colours and sounds went all weird and crazy... to actually picture it now in my head It doesnt seem like much to get scared about... but I was just overcome with a blanket of fear and it really wasnt fun.
And not only that but for a while afterwards I kept getting weird sensations, my vision would go funny and I'd have to stop whatever i was doing, shake my head and convince myself I wasnt going mad... thankfully nothing like that happens any more, but theres always the possibility it might... and I could be driving past a school when it happens...
Sorry if I called for a missunderstanding, but when I typed "jumping from an skycrapper" I was not refering as a jump provoqued by a bad trip after eating mushrooms... My example just meant that there are ZILLION of ways to get new experiences without using drugs. It also means that not all this ways to get nex experiences are good
(So, MC, comparing here the deaths provoqued by alcohol is totally uncalled for, here, since I was not talking of deaths caused by mushrooms)
I go on, MChammer; Do you recognise that mshrooms don' t bring anything "magical" to you? (No cure for cancer, no?) So... why using them? "Well, they bring something interesting!"
My reply: Do you do need drugs to bring interest to your live?
I feel sorry for you, mate.
So, to summarise, what you basically did is criticise alcohol, for then, in the following line, recognise that mshroom is more or less the same shit (According to your words nothing "special" but something which can bring interest to a boring life...) I don' t really get your point.
Ouch, Farl. Calling someone boring is uncalled for, bro.
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 18/11/2007 22:54:00
Sorry if I called for a missunderstanding, but when I typed "jumping from an skycrapper" I was not refering as a jump provoqued by a bad trip after eating mushrooms...
So you didn't refer to this part in the above linked article? My bad.
QuoteThe government has cracked down on hard drugs and tightened controls on marijuana. It was expected to do the same with mushrooms after the death of 17-year-old Gaelle Caroff, who had suffered from psychological problems before her death in March. She jumped from a building after eating psychedelic mushrooms while on a school visit.
But let us not forget what this is all about: Bloody politics.
But... but... that's what he said, that he uses mshrooms because it' s interesting, no? ???
This is the first and probably last time I participate in a drug debate on the forums, but Nacho's comment "Do you do need drugs to bring interest to your live? I feel sorry for you, mate." pisses me off. It's like saying: "Do you need video games to make your life interesting? What a loser".
Just because alcohol might be your drug of preference (not saying it is, just an example), it doesn't mean it's the right thing for everybody. I personally gave up drinking after trying cannabis, and I'm quite happy with that decision - I replaced one drug, which I've had very few good experiences with, with another that I've yet to have a negative experience with. Of course I can be perfectly happy without any drugs at all - throughout the last 10 years (that is, before changing my habit), I've only been drunk maybe three or four times a year. However I do enjoy taking drugs for recreational use, while watching certain movies, listening to music, or chilling with friends, and I've used drugs for creative purposes - sometimes even when I didn't intend to be creative, such as inventing four elaborate magic tricks while attending a concert.
Of course I don't think that drugs by themselves bring creativity, or that I can't be creative without them. But I cannot deny that they allow me to view ideas from different angles and lets me see connections that I never made before. I rewrote huge parts of my game design under the influence of drugs, and even when sober those changes are all for the better. I really can't believe some of the secrets I discovered in these characters that I wrote myself - stuff than now seems like the most natural things in the world and explains clues that I originally had put in there without knowing their meaning.
I can't really comment on the effects and misuse of shrooms, since I haven't tried them, but as a social libertarian I resent the ways that drug laws prevent the individual from exploring the potential of his own mind. Drugs have different effects on different people, and what may be good some may be bad for others. Stupot had a bad experience and learnt from that, mchammer seems to have the opposite idea. But as long as the drug is non-toxic and non-addictive, and doesn't present any increased risk to anybody but the individual drug user, I think adults should be able to decide for themselves.
Shrooms aren't too bad... If the wrong person takes them then yes surely they're going to mess up and go mental. But for everyone else it's a pretty fun, tame experience. Puts your mind as one with the earth & is quite pleasent. It's the same with any drug really. Someone not used to it, ready for it or just not with a tolerant mind-frame will fuck up on it. People go to Amsterdam to fuck up on drugs :D But no-one goes to fuck up on them and cause problems for everyone else. And with shrooms it's just natural that some people won't handle them. They're one step closer to acid. Cannabis sure isn't..! I've had friends who have gone absolutely crazy on shrooms and I've had not-so-great experiences myself. And to be fair as a tourist if I was shrooming in Amsterdam I probably would go a bit mad :p But I've always asscociated mushrooms with Amsterdam thats for sure! Just pissed off I didn't do them again when I was there the other week... LOL :p
Shrooms are now an A-class drug in England. I'm surprised they got banned in Holland, but I guess it was kind of obvious. As far as I know they're cracking down on smoking in hotels & bars like we have in the UK, coffeeshops being the only exception to indoor smoking. They'll be shut down sooner or later too I'm sure :( Still i'm just a raving druggie :D but i'd like to do shrooms again. When it's good its a totally different plain :D PHAT
QuoteThis is the first and probably last time I participate in a drug debate on the forums, but Nacho's comment "Do you do need drugs to bring interest to your live? I feel sorry for you, mate." pisses me off. It's like saying: "Do you need video games to make your life interesting? What a loser".
No it's not, not at all. Videogames by nature do not impair normal thought processes.
I would definitely recommend counseling and rehab for anyone who thought taking mood and mind-altering substances is what makes life worthwhile. I would also recommend the same to someone so obsessed with videogames that their lives seemed empty without them (I've never heard of anyone who truly had this problem). Either way you've become an abuser reliant on a fix, and in both cases you're impairing the quality of your own life by continuing down that road.
QuoteI can't really comment on the effects and misuse of shrooms, since I haven't tried them, but as a social libertarian I resent the ways that drug laws prevent the individual from exploring the potential of his own mind.
I don't mean this to be offensive, though it will likely sound such, but what potential, exactly? Are you actually suggesting that drugs open up grand new vistas in the human psyche, allowing you to develop some zen-like abilities? Because if you are, I call bullshit. If anything, many drugs have been shown
to have the reverse effect, even when used in the short term. People regularly contest citations and studies, but I'll post a link to an NIDA article on marijuana use for the heck of it: http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html
QuotePeople go to Amsterdam to fuck up on drugs Cheesy But no-one goes to fuck up on them and cause problems for everyone else.
Unfortunately with drug use these often go hand in hand. Avoiding the use of substances that impair your ability to determine right from wrong is pretty much a good idea all around.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 19/11/2007 02:44:04No it's not, not at all. Videogames by nature do not impair normal thought processes.
I didn't compare playing video games to taking drugs (though some of the best games DO create an altered state of reality for as long as you play them). I referred to Nachos intentional misquoting of mchammer (who said that people on drugs do have interesting experiences) as if he had said that drugs were the ONLY way for him to interesting experiences, which he never did. I was merely showing the absurdity of that statement by comparing it to the unfairness of someone who found video games interesting (maybe "fun" would be a better word), like most people around here, being attacked with the same line of reasoning: That since you're playing them, they must be the only thing that makes your life interesting, and hence you're a very sad person.
And I totally agree with your recommendations of counselling to either, if that was actually the case. But nobody ever claimed so in this thread, except Nacho.
QuoteI don't mean this to be offensive, though it will likely sound such, but what potential, exactly? Are you actually suggesting that drugs open up grand new vistas in the human psyche, allowing you to develop some zen-like abilities?
Nothing so grand, I'm afraid. But I think I gave a perfectly good example describing my own experiences. No matter how creative I am without drugs, I definitely feel that cannabis helps me free associate and make connections in surprising ways that often bring on entirely new ideas and avenues of thought, that I can then use in my work. It's no miracle drug, for sure, it won't bring creativity by itself. But it's surely an enhancement drug, whether you're contemplating your own art or enjoying someone else's. I'm not recommending others to use it without caution, because I think it's a highly individual thing. And obviously there are situations such as attending school or performing work that requires concentration or physical precision, where it's downright counterproductive - I'm myself taking a break while finishing my thesis. But the effect is certainly something that I'd like to explore further once I have only my game to worry about.
[You must also take into consideration, than most creative activities have several stages, where some might benefit from drugs while others won't. I wouldn't like to do scripting while high - or rather, I'd hate to try to debug it later - due to the effect on short term memory. Cannabis does however boost lateral thinking, and I've solved several concept-level problems in scripting, such as function optimization, after smoking a joint, scribbled it down on a piece of paper and implemented it later on.]
Edit: Something tells me this thread will come back to haunt me one day when I'm applying for a job.
Drugs such as cannabis or shrooms are completely natural and there's nothing wrong with using them. Studies have shown that there are no longterm effects of either. I have read papers that compare the drugs with alcohol and I can say alcohol is by far worse than either (if you want them just ask I have them on my hard-drive).
And yes, I can say that cannabis and shrooms do allow your mind to open and in a way make you 'smarter' (for lack of a better word) while under the influence.
While intoxicated with cannabis you can watch a person behave, and know everything - their motives, their state of mind etc. You can tell immediately if someone's lying.
Watching human behavior while under the influence is wonderful as it's like you've been studying psychology for 3 years. And that's just one of the brilliant amount of things to while intoxicated.
And you people like Progzmax and Nacho (I respect you guys and your opinions), but try not to be so close-minded. There is nothing wrong with something which is completely natural.. All these drugs do is trigger the release of certain hormones in your mind (dopamine) which could not happen while sober. Sometimes it's just a nice way of chilling out.
Try it before you create such harsh opinions of the drug. (And sorry if you have tried it before, then I withdraw that statement and respect your opinion).
Besides, your body produces endogenous cannabinoids naturally, all cannabis does it put a little bit more into your body ;D
I can' t understand how can you still mention alcohol to me. I rarelly drink alcohol. I never defensed it in this thread.
But what annoys me most is that NOBODY has stablished a basical difference between the "spirit" of alcohol and the use of mushrooms/cannabis/LSD, etc... Both are "taking something for recreational effects". What you are doing here is telling "No! No! If you want to kill someone the lethal injection is not the best option. Guillotine was better" You are not telling "Death penaly should be banned", which should be a good reply to "I support death penalty". You are discussing different ways of killing.
You are not discussing to me, you are just putting excuses to go on taking drugs without concience problems.
You are making en evasive maneuver.
Excuse me if I don' t admire your "I change alcohol for cannabis". I would admire "I changed alcohol for Sport/Writing/Social works/etc...", but not for this... (I still think that you are a great artist and game makes, so, no offense if I don' t admire ANY aspect of your life, ok? ;) )
I go on: I don' t know why in the XXIth century we still go on with "Natural is good... artificial is bad". The most powerfull poisons in earth are natural. The vaccines are artificial. Those who think that "using something to get something" that can be adquired "without taking anything" are not close minded. I know that drungs can help you "hear better/Interact better/imagine better/chilling out better/etc..." I know that. But yo can get all that "naturally" with a bit of training and attitude. Getting a shortcut, is, no matter what you say, a pitty.
And totally artificial, sorry, even if the mushroom is natural. ^_^
Quote from: mchammer on Sun 18/11/2007 22:25:17
It's difficult for me to think that people wouldn't get such an experience. Of course wrongly used or if you arent strong minded (I dont mean that there are 'strong minded' and 'weak minded' persons, i just dont have better word for it) the experience can be very scary and bad, but i have never heard that anyone would think it wasnt learning.
I'm Dutch, and I did try it a few times in my late teens. Was fun, wasn't very learning. It seemed me and my friends who tried it together understood each other completely and we were so deep.
Well, we wrote stuff down, and when we were sober again, it was just bullshit.
It's just like cannabis, people think they're very insightful when they use it, but that's just a cool effect and nothing more.
Quote from: Nacho on Mon 19/11/2007 00:04:25
But... but... that's what he said, that he uses mshrooms because it' s interesting, no? ???
Well, you play adventure games because you find that intersting, does that make you boring?
Yes ... and I breathe, because it' s funnier than dying. Are you really comparing doing normal things in live with using drugs?
It's interesting seeing peoples different views and opinions of drugs, and that is all they are, opinions. No one is right or wrong, although you can't say that Marijuana (or other drugs) are not addictive.
Note: below are my experiences, and may not apply to others and I don't recommend taking any drugs, it's really best not to know, even if the experiences are good, the come downs can be a real biatch.
From My personal experience smoking 0.5 - 1 ounce of marijuana per week, was highly addictive and once your tolerance builds up to that sort of level, my guess is if you try to go cold turkey, by the end of that day (more realistically about 3 hours since your last smoke), you wont be able to sleep, eat, you will be very irritable, nauseous if you try to eat, stomach pains, and just a real prick to be around.
And at this sort of level, you don't even really get stoned, it's more just medication to feel normal. It's more like smoking cigarettes, smoking for the addiction. smoking 10 bongs in a row, and really only getting the hit from the bong, and not much lasting effect from high quality hydro, is not what you had originally planned, damn build up of Cannabinoid receptors.
The difference between marijuana and a lot of other drugs though is the way it is stored in your body, alcohol, heroin, speed, extacy etc are flushed out of your system relatively fast, (between hours and days depending on quantity) but marijuana gets stored in your fat cells, and can be detected in your system for a month or so and can be detected in your hair for many months.
if you would like to find out more about the reasons for tolerance, look up Anandamide which is the natural neurotransmitter in the body that stimulates the Cannabinoid receptors, THC also stimulates these receptors at a much higher level, hence creating more receptors, which is your bodies mechanism to keep you as normal as possible and to try to get rid of toxins faster.
You'll find this pretty similar with many other drugs, eg. opiate & nicotine receptors, with the effects of opiates and cigarettes.
pretty much for any drug to have an effect there has to be a receptor in the body, that will specifically accept it at a chemical level, which is a substitute for a naturally occurring substance already in the body. It's pretty freaky that we have experimented with so many things that we have actually found substances to stimulate these receptors.
As far as shrooms go, I've never actually tried them cause i hate mushrooms (food wise) to begin with, though I have tried LSD on a few occasions, don't really like it much, I did get some cool visuals, but what I don't like about it, for me personally was, the thoughts it put in my head, and for some stupid reason once I had a battle going on in my head, between coke and pepsi, whenever I saw a coke, I had to see a pepsi, so I had to just go on a mission, just to see a sign or a bottle and I had to see them in even numbers. Driving is not the best thing to do under this sort of drug, especially when the traffic lights are glowing.
Another time a group of us were at a music festival all day, we all took a trip at the start of the day, I just wondered round all day in my own little world, and eventually at the end of the day, we all ended up in the same place, at the same time, in the middle of a crowd (ie 50,000 people) a bit more sober , that was quite trippy in itself as we didn't organise a place to meet, and we hadn't run into each other at all during the day.
With LSD though (and some other drugs) the way you are feeling can effect the way it will effect you, and if you are scared to take it, you will more likely have a freaked out trip, so if you are really worried about taking it, don't.
combining drugs is pretty common too, and often it was just fun to see what combinations would do, probably the most I had at once was quite a few bongs, a trip, a few beers then doing nitrous oxide bulbs, that was an interesting night around a camp fire. but not too social, as with the shit going on in my head, conversation was had but not remembered.
Smoked opium once, and it just wiped me out, not really that much fun, I guess with most drugs you need to build up some sort of tolerance before you can really enjoy it, and with that shit, it's not worth bothering.
exctacy, not really a big fan, I can't really see what the fuss is about, not really my thing.
Never tried Cocaine, probably about the only drug I wouldn't mind experiencing at least once.
I got into a bit of speed for a while, mainly just to keep awake, and to sober up a bit during some big nights, but that shit has a very sharp comedown and it's effects anyway aren't really that great, I'm glad I never got into shooting that stuff into my veins as quite a few of my friends did.
I was never a big fan of alcohol, and my drug of choice was marijuana, if I was withdrawing from marijuana, I could not even contemplate alcohol, I didn't mind having a beer or 2 after some bongs, but if there was no beer there I couldn't be bothered getting any.
The main problem I had with marijuana in large doses was the lack of motivation, to do anything, including working, going out anywhere (unless it was a mission to score or go to a scenic location to smoke) and It does cause depression for me (and is common among users). Short term memory loss is a big thing, and a strange concept when you're driving and look around and think "where am I going again?" or "where am I?". You don't remember dreams either, that's one thing you notice when you come off the shit, you start having dreams again.
It took me years to eventually get over it, never really had a problem with any other drugs (except Aropax) a brand of anti-depressants that were prescribed, the withdrawals from them were severe and took me 3 months to get back to normal, not something I'll every try again.
Being dependent on anything is something that I never want.
I still have friends that take drugs, and I've been around them when it's going round but I never touch anything these days, and that's something I guess I've learned from experience, It's best just not to do it.
I still drink alcohol, and at some stages I've drank a lot, but never been able to get dependent on it, though I do crave a beer on a friday and saturday night, but during the week I don't even feel like it.
I actually had a big one friday week ago, just on the common balcony on the floor of my apartment building with a few neighbours, drinking til 5am and someone gave me some shots of tequila after about 8 beers, I passed out at some stage, til someone gave me a nudge, then woke up and had a few more beers. I had to play cricket the next day, I must say I was probably still drunk when I started playing, and I'm an opening bowler and we were bowling first. I was more fired up than I'd been in ages and I bowled one of the fastest and best spells of my life (and that was not just drunk thoughts, that was from the compliments I got from my team, and the opposition). I did feel pretty shit that night though.
It's up to the individual to decide whether or not to take any sort of drugs, just remember abuse of anything whether it be food, fetish, or fermentation, can be extremely bad for you.
Being in my 30's now, and with a mortgage, and fitter than I was in my 20's, I'm feeling pretty good, and I doubt anyone has actually read this far.
It's a surprise they banned anything in Holland, but I guess over years, things change, though I've heard the prices over there for drugs aren't really that much different to the black market anyway.
What was the reasoning behind the ban? Were tourists gobbling down thier own body weight in shrooms then running wild through Amsterdam, gibbering and yelling and peeing on poodles and generally being a public nusience? If so, fair enough on the ban.
Shrooms used to be quasi-legal in this country, so long as they were fresh and not dried - you could buy them form hippy-type shops - but got suddenly made class A a few years back. Given that most people who'd take them pick or grow their own, I doubt that the user base in the uk has altered significantly, although casual or impulsive users who bought theirs in shops obviously can't do that no more.
I tried them a few or more times, experiences raging from pleasant to awesome to full on quivering in terror nightmarish. As for "learning" from them, I made lots of insight's and had lots of ideas that seemed revolutionary while I was on them, but were nothing special after I'd come down.
Final point - Imagine a girl who was in a wheel chair. She broke her back when she was thrown off her horse. Obviously, not everyone who rides a horse will break their backs, some will have a lovely time and go on with their lives, or even keep up their horse riding hobby for years without injury or mishap. But if banning horseriding would save *just one* life, surely it'd be worth it? :P
Comparing the benefits of sport and its risks with using drugs... amazing! ^_^
I was not being entirely serious, there.
Quote from: Nacho on Mon 19/11/2007 14:03:41
Comparing the benefits of sport and its risks with using drugs... amazing! ^_^
Tell me, what you know about the risks or benefits exactly?
I dont mean that there is no risks, of course there is, bad trip can be very very terrible experience.
But have you read a lot about drugs?
You just keep saying that drugs are only bad thing and people who dont think like you are boring nolife losers (and yes, i know you didnt say
exactly like that but that's not important). How you know something what you have never tried or experienced is so bad thing? I dont
say you should try them, because you obiviously shoudnt, but why you cant accept that some people like to do different things than you?
Peace :)
I did not read about drugs.
I used them.
... for a couple of years.
Weed, hachis, cocaine, LSD mushroom and speed. Under control and with a relative "scientific" and experimental point of view...
Never really knew why people seems to see something so extraordinary in them.
I don't care either way. What I do feel annoyed at is the following (quoting the article due to a bad case of the Lazy):
QuoteThe government had solicited advice from vendors, advocacy groups and the city of Amsterdam, which benefits greatly from drug-related tourism, on how to improve the situation.
Mushroom vendors suggested stricter ID controls to prevent underage buyers, and strong warnings against mixing mushrooms with other drugs.
I agree with this. Better ID control, warnings,
good and clear information, and Cohen's suggestion for a 3-day delay between ordering and actually receiving should have been more than effective.
The danger now lies in people going out to pick their own shrooms for personal use or sale, with little or no information easily available but stuff on the internet, and then using it (and dying or getting tremendously sick) or selling it to people who will use it (and then die or get tremendously sick).
I'm of the opinion that better and easily available information will always be better than a ban. Rather people using bad stuff but knowing what they're doing than using bad stuff (regardless of laws, which they'll do anyway) and not knowing what they're doing.
Also, if somebody needs drugs to give their life meaning, all the more power to them. As soon as it starts interfering with my own life, however, I'll kick 'm in the balls swiftly. Amazingly enough, the same goes for people who're sober.
Meh.
Never done shrooms and have no intent to.
QuoteEdit: Something tells me this thread will come back to haunt me one day when I'm applying for a job.
Perhaps if you end up relying on cannabis as some sort of creative crutch that makes an okay idea
really good, as you're implying you do already. Maybe some alarm bells should be ringing there... I mean, you're not going to be able to get high in the workplace if you're having trouble fleshing out ideas or solving a programming problem.
Oh, I more meant along the lines of human resources people in charge of employment digging up my ancient forum posts, but of course you have a point. That's not really the case though, since I never smoke when doing work-work.
I've always thought of mushrooms as a wuss's LSD, and as I had a bad time on mushrooms you can safely say I'll never go anywhere near LSD (or anything else really, except alcohol and the odd hash-cake once in a while).
The thing is hallucinogens may well give you this 'spiritual' experience. And if one wants to interpret that as some new level of understanding then that's up to them. I don't personally agree with that.
I think what you see under the influence is a distortion of the real world combined with some messy subconscious goings-on that usually only come out in dreams. There are people in padded cells for having exactly the same symptoms.
My sister works in the kitchen of a psychiatric ward, and she's not really supposed to say anything about the patients, but she did tell me once about a young guy they had in there who had taken LSD and never came down. So that is one risk.
And of course another risk is the flashbacks. And I know from my own personal experience that flashbacks can happen from Mushorooms, not just LSD, so there is a real danger there. And although my flashbacks were relatively mild, I'm sure some people have had far worse ones than mine. And for that reason I think restricting peoples use is a good idea.
To those people saying that Shrooms and Cannabis are 'natural' therefore safe... you guys need to think about what you're saying. Would you eat any old frog without looking it up first to see if it was going to kill you or not? Or how about a serving of Deadly Nightshade?... Not to your taste?...Why not try some Fugu, I'll let you prepare it yourself.
So a government should make personal choices for its people?
Look at the prohibition and the results. Alcohol is one of the more dangerous poisons (it's a cellular toxin) in society today, but trying to remove it from society had disastrous results. Demand doesn't disappear when the supply is restricted. A huge black market formed, organized crime increased, and the contraband lost all quality control (blindness, death, etc.).
Hell, caffeine is a physically-addictive, recreational psychoactive drug. You can OD on it, and they test for it at major sporting events (since it's a central nervous system stimulant, it falls into the category of a performance enhancing drug). Tobacco is the leading cause of death worldwide, killing over a third of the people who use it and burdening public health programs with billions of dollars worth of damage. I'd say this is slightly more deleterious than a few flashbacks.
History has proven that the legality of a drug is not about public safety, it's about politics.
Quote from: mchammer on Sun 18/11/2007 22:04:26
People who havent tried it can easily claim that people who eat shrooms are just hallucinating so strongly that they think they have seen something wise. I can say that's not true but of course i have no way to proof it in internet. Only thing i can say is that read about people's experiences.
All I can say is that anecdotal evidence is crap. Okay, you have no way to proof it in internet. Don't expect anyone in the internet to be convince.
I currently see no rational reason to believe that "shrooms" in and of themselves instill you with any sort of wisdom beyond hallucination and euphoria. And shamans, though probably knowledgeable in some areas, were full of all sorts of crap.
Quote from: EldKatt on Wed 21/11/2007 16:37:42
Don't expect anyone in the internet to be convince.
Idea of this tread was to discuss about new law, not to turn people to use shrooms or something like that. It just went little off topic.
About that wisdom/understanding/whatever.... I dont mean that eating mushrooms would
increase wisdom or that they contain some kind of magical intelligence. I mean that under shroom trip, I think in
different way than usual. So it doesnt make me instantly thinking smarter or anything. But seeing everything from different angle has made me notice a lot of things about people and their way to think and reasons why they behave like they do. That has made me more open person what i used to be.
And notice that i eat muhrooms only couple times in a year (in finland those grow about 1 - 2 months every autumn), so im not addict or anything like that. I just feel that this habit is mentaly good for me and that's the only reason i do it.
Habit is a repetitive good act, like sport, or washing your teeth after each meal.
Using drungs could be harmless, but definitively not good, so, it' s better to say that it' s a vicious, like drinking or smoking. (Things you criticised in this post for admiting, shortly after, that eating mushrooms is not better, though)
So, enjoy your trips, and feel good with your "new angles". When you have a bad trip let' s see if this new angles result so funny ^_^.
Quote from: Nacho on Wed 21/11/2007 17:31:52
Habit is a repetitive good act, like sport, or washing your teeth after each meal.
That's just semantics.
And I must say that using shrooms just a couple of times per year, and than months in a row not, is one of the more mature forms of recreative drugs taking.
I'm not in the pro or anti drugs camp, I'm mostly in the 'let every one decide for themselves if, when and how they want to get fucked up, as long as they don't harm anyone else'-camp.
All the drugs I do is some alcohol. Which is far nastier than shrooms btw.
What are you comparing?
Being alcoholic with using drungs twice per year? Unfair comparision.
Drinking every week with using drugs twice per year? Unfair comparision...
Are you comparing eating mushrooms twice per year with drinking twice per year? Yes? I think not... Then, your "far nastier than shrooms" is false.
I dont really know what part you didnt understand...
Ill try to make it simple.
I have tried these two:
A) I dont eat shrooms at all.
B) I eat them couple times a year.
1. I have noticed that im happier while doing B instead of A.
2. I have also noticed that you are happier if you pick option A.
That's because we think in different way and like to do different things.
3. I dont make other people's life unhappier while doing B. (It seems to make you angry tho, but
i can live with that)
As said before...
A) Eat "shrooms"
And be happy while the trip is good... enjoy ^_^/
That is why I pay attension to these:
Quote from: mchammer on Sun 18/11/2007 19:48:13
-right dozing (not too strong for first time)
-setting(warm homelike atmosphere,good lighing, relaxing music (there is shamanic music made just for tripping))
-you never should try them alone.
-noise (caused by enviroment or drunken friends) can be really pressing.
-you should try them indoors. (There is different opinions about that tho)
-you should have an empty stomach when eating them.
Also i make it sure that im not too stressed or going trought some depressing issue when i eat those.
I have always eaten them with very good and trustworthy friends.
Stupot told about his bad trip, of course i cant know all the reasons witch caused it, but things what he told are for sure enought to cause a terrible trip to anyone:
Quote
a) I was inexperienced. I don't even smoke weed let alone eating psychedelic fungi so it probably wasn't the recommended 'first drug'.
b) I was sitting in a room with about 3 or 4 kids that used to bully me a few years previously... they were ok with me then, but I still have harsh memories of them.
c) I took too many, because I didnt wait long enough for the first load to settle in and gobbled up some more impatiently. This turned out to be a bad move.
Of course there is always a risk for bad trip, i have never had a very bad trip and i try to make sure with these preparations that i never need to experience one. If i keep eating shroom trought my whole life, i probably will have a very bad trip some day. Do I keep eating shrooms after that, i cant really know. Believe me, i have compared the risks and benefits
very carefully, and result is that i have that my little habit.
...likely harmless vicious...
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 18/11/2007 21:12:11
Jumping from the 10th floor of an skycrapper might help you to see the life from a different angle, and it might not be very recommendable. I' ve read here some of the most used topics about drugs, and they still sound like crap to me.
Shamans have used them for 10000 years!
And? Have they seen something interesting? No... basically they were drugged people. No one has seen the cure for cancer after eating a mushroom.
Beer has been amongst us for a very long time also, and again, no one has seen a cure for cancer because of this!
Shamans were full of all kkinds of crap?
That is so true, but todays people are full of crap anyway so I don't see the difference. There are so many good and bad things in our world that argueing over the usage of shrooms is just pointless. Some use it, some don't, whats the big difference. Oh and man who invented LSD and experimented with it a lot, lived over 100.
Some people jump from 10th floor via dosage of drugs, some people jump anyway. Whats the difference, its their mind, we can't control it.
Do you know to read?
I repeteadly told that the "Jumping from the 10th floor" is not an example of which stupid things you can do when on a trip, but a silly example meaning that there are actions that can make you see the live from different angles, without being GOOD. The guy who jumped was NOT DRUGGED, ok?
I' ll post it again, you just had to read carefully before repeating something has told before:
QuoteSorry if I called for a missunderstanding, but when I typed "jumping from an skycrapper" I was not refering as a jump provoqued by a bad trip after eating mushrooms... My example just meant that there are ZILLION of ways to get new experiences without using drugs. It also means that not all this ways to get nex experiences are good.
Second part: "World is full of crap, a bit more crap ain't going to make much more harm"
Is that your deffense to Mushrooms? Sorry, it' s a bit... childish. Elaborate one better and I might consider discussing with you.
Its your definition, not mine. Its how you want to see things.
And jumping drugged or not, it doesn't change my point. We can't and shouldn't control someones mind. If someone wants to jump, let them jump, maybe they feel a bit better afterwards....
There are so many bad things in our world and you whine because of this? Have you ever considered making any good and considered contributing to stopping sufferings of billions of beings by going vegan? Someone doing drugs is that someones own choice, someone being held captive is not. And please don't come up with stupid shit again. Actually what kind of harm shrooms exactly do to YOU or anyone against them?
Egoism all the way, yay.
Rename Subject to: Drug Apologists Anonymous
On a personal note,I dont like most drugs. I can undertand the apeal, and I have been tempted, and I admit I do drink sometimes. But what I don't like about the harder drugs, because well, its cheating. It gives you a pleasure boost, you really didn't earn. And in so doing unbalnce your perceptions of how much work one is willing to do to get how much pleasure. If all it takes, to feel temporerly on top of the world is to take a pill, then how is say going to a movie or been with your girlfriend/boyfriend/ animal of preferance, going to compare?
Like I said its cheating.
Quote from: lo_res_man on Mon 26/11/2007 08:48:53
On a personal note,I dont like most drugs. I can undertand the apeal, and I have been tempted, and I admit I do drink sometimes. But what I don't like about the harder drugs, (aka most drugs illeagal in everywhere but where the dutch come from) because well, its cheating. It gives you a pleasure boost, you really didn't earn. And in so doing unbalnce your perceptions of how much work one is willing to do to get how much pleasure. If all it takes, to feel temporerly on top of the world is to take a pill, then how is say going to a movie or been with your girlfriend/boyfriend/ animal of preferance, going to compare?
Like I said its cheating.
I bet your whole life is cheating, otherwise you wouldn't feel so happy about it. Now go eat your McDonalds meal, that you didn't kill and be happier and don't whine about pointless things, ok?
Life is horizontal falling, sometimes we need a little boost when we have fallen too much.
well I am happy to disagree with you on that. Sure people who have mental illness like depression, they just been adjusted back to the norm, or something close anyway. But do most people really need to be medicated? Do we want to live in a society where we think , "Oh no, the news depresses me, well lets pop prozac."? I don't. How are people supposed to learn from their mistakes, if they refuse to treat them as mistakes? Yes, life is a sysifision masterpiece of endless shouldering on. But there is a kind of pointless nobility in living on from day to day. Sure I can see the need for an occasional pick me up, but we could have a electrode plugged into our pleasure canters, and a button, I still don't think it would be a good idea. In studies where they did that to animals, the little rats pushed that button till they dropped, literally. They forego, food, water, sex even, just to push the freaking button. How is society supposed to change ad grow if we are all staying at home pushing our pleasure box? It wouldn't be good that's all I can say.
If you don't want to whine about pointless things, what are you doing in gengen?
whats that gotta do with the price of tea in china ::)
Was bored today so started to plan an adventure game about the subject.
Doesnt it sound great... ::)
Btw, went little off-topic, so renamed the whole thing.
Quote from: mchammer on Mon 26/11/2007 19:56:04
Was bored today so started to plan an adventure game about the subject.
You can do drugs in QfG3...
Quote from: radiowaves on Mon 26/11/2007 16:20:07
Now go eat your McDonalds meal, that you didn't kill and be happier and don't whine about pointless things, ok?
Quote from: EldKatt on Mon 26/11/2007 19:06:00
If you don't want to whine about pointless things, what are you doing in gengen?
Quote from: lo_res_man on Mon 26/11/2007 19:32:19
whats that gotta do with the price of tea in china ::)
k?
If you mean the last remark, by me, "What's that got to do with the price of tea in china?" is a phrase that basically asks, what does that have to with what we are discussing? Its figure of speech, and I was rather wrong to use it. I was wondering what discussing semi-important issues with total strangers all across the world has to do with my complaint against drug use.
I was merely remarking on the meaninglessness of "stop whining about pointless things"-type arguments in internet discussions. If we cared about that, we wouldn't be here. Directed at radiowaves, not lo_res_man.
But never mind. Carry on.
As a pragmatist on this issue, banning drugs (or weapons, immigration, alchohol, prostitution or any thing that people REALLY want) just makes criminals rich, since they become the only people who can supply them.
Quote from: lo_res_man on Mon 26/11/2007 08:48:53
But what I don't like about the harder drugs, (aka most drugs illeagal in everywhere but where the dutch come from)
I'm sorry, but what exactly are you implying with this? It sounds like you're saying "hard drugs, which are illegal everywhere but in the Netherlands". If that was what you're saying, then you need to realize that only marijuana and shrooms (for now) are legal here. The rest is just as illegal as they are everywhere else in the western world.
This thread was about mushrooms. Now, do you have any real examples supporting your idea of banning hallucigenic mushrooms?
But never mind, you all win, I hope the world is a better place now :)
Quote from: SSH on Tue 27/11/2007 12:09:53
As a pragmatist on this issue, banning drugs (or weapons, immigration, alchohol, prostitution or any thing that people REALLY want) just makes criminals rich, since they become the only people who can supply them.
But should the govermint get rich on other peoples addictions. I also don't like govermant run casino's.
Quote from: voh on Tue 27/11/2007 12:16:30
'm sorry, but what exactly are you implying with this? It sounds like you're saying "hard drugs, which are illegal everywhere but in the Netherlands". If that was what you're saying, then you need to realize that only marijuana and shrooms (for now) are legal here. The rest is just as illegal as they are everywhere else in the western world.
sorry, didn't know, my mistake. will edit post to comply with new info
Well, someone is going to get rich on them. Government or criminals. Or nice people. The possibilities are endless!
i agree, its better. I still don't like it. I think a better argument can be made for legalised prostitution if we take out the pimp factor. These woman (and men) need to be able to report the abuses inflicted on the by sick clients, as well as seek medical treatment without fear of censure. They also should be able to seek out police protection, just like any other citizen.
Quote from: lo_res_man on Tue 27/11/2007 16:12:01
But should the govermint get rich on other peoples addictions. I also don't like govermant run casino's.
Hmmm, so should addicts contribute to public spending or to criminals... hard choice.
But at least we can try to do something about the criminals. To BAse public works on blood money feels unethical to me. And casinos ARE blood money. Much of the money from gambling comes from problem gamblers, people willing to sacrifice jobs families and lives for their addiction. And these people have a more then twice the normal rate of suicide. To me, that is blood money, and we stain our hands for using it.
Well, it can be used only for the War in Iraq, then, so that blood money is used for blood...
Quote from: lo_res_man on Tue 27/11/2007 18:11:35
And casinos ARE blood money. Much of the money from gambling comes from problem gamblers, people willing to sacrifice jobs families and lives for their addiction.
I dont see it like that. Almost every entertaiment has it's problem users: Casinos, junk food (fuck mcdonalds),
drugs,alcohol,cigarettes,computers, tv...
We can't ban all this just because there is and will always be people who just cant control themselves and dont understand that one key to good life is moderation.
True enough, but I don't like how certain things like drugs and casinos , the money mostly comes from addicts. Theoretically one can be addicted to anything. I don't say we should ban them, its just that more money should be spent to help those who DO have problems. Who do you know was put off from drinking too much, by the tiny little, "drink responsibly" blurb at the bottom of the screen? or the "Gamble responsibly" blurb on a lotto tickets? Are there councillors in casinos, roving the floor ,trying to help addicts? Of course not, that would take away from revenue. That's what I hate about drugs, and casinos. Maybe you don't see it like that, and I can accept that, please accept my feelings as well. my father was a porn addict, and he would use it against my mother in exchange for intercourse. Its one of the reasons she left him. Addictions are terrible things, and for a democracy to exploit the weaknesses of its citizens for taxes, is wrong to me. Of course private business is private business, and in the end it amounts to the same thing. But this is more direct.