Do you pay to download music?

[auriond]

I would buy music online; in fact I prefer that to buying CDs unless I were a great fan and MUST have the physical CD to show on my shelf. With all the CDs I do buy, I usually rip them to mp3 anyway and then chuck the CD aside. So I'd rather buy mp3s straight.

Except that here where I live, there are very few online music stores, and those that do exist don't sell the music that I listen to.

So in the end, I do download mp3s - entire albums even - but I see it as a "try before you buy" policy. And I'm not apologetic about that. My music taste is generally not mainstream and it's not always easy to get it. My music collection is a mishmash of purchased and downloaded mp3s. My reasoning is, if I didn't buy it, I'm not going to buy it anyway so nothing's lost to anyone.

My only exception to this rule are the imported albums which, I feel, are far too expensive. Seriously, I don't think it's worth paying more than triple the usual price of a CD for an import. I've been known to fork out US$50 over for an imported Japanese CD, and then weeks later saw a much cheaper (US$15) local edition of the same album. I mean come on, how much does it cost to import a CD?? Small little piece of plastic. You could stuff gazillions of those on a container ship. And Japan isn't even very far away from Singapore. That was the last imported CD I bought.

If there were online stores selling Japanese mp3s, I'd buy them in a heartbeat.

[Tuomas]

The local record store is really flexible. I've only found one album they couldn't provide/order. That was Annie in Wonderland by Annie Haslam, which was apparently out everywhere, couldn't even find it on the internet. I've got it now though \o/ Anyway, my friend ordered Keiko Matsui's album with a live DVD as bonus, and didn't pay any extra for it. So I really guess these guys take in less profit from imports to keep the customers. I don't complain, I get every 11th album free, this year it might just be Marillion's new

[Pet Terry]

Brief update on my situation;

I finally managed to burn the songs I on a cd! I had to install the player on another computer and transfer the songs there. The player uses a TID code system to identify its users, and one TID code works on three (3) different systems. I guess the player just doesn't like external cd drives... But eh, I'm happy now, I just think I'm never going to use their system again.

Meanwhile, I still haven't received a word back from the tech support. Also,

I don't like paying to download music. It isn't really that I'm cheap, it's just that there's something about paying for something that you don't really get to call yours that turns me off. When I put money out for something, I want a product. I want a physical thing I can hold up and say, "I paid for this." The whole digital-consumer age leaves me kind of high and dry, especially when so many things are available via the internet for free.

My thoughts exactly. Also also,

I've got loads of vinyls myself, and nothing really beats the feeling of putting one in, dropping the needle and listening to the first cracks.

Vinyls for the win!

[Nikolas]

I think I'm close to that idea as well!

And I know you thought "Oh nikolas posted. Here we go again! "

I like having the physical copy as well!

Problem with downloads is that:

a. You get MTV playing music. Other channels as well. I've paid for my tv license, so it's legal to watch MTV, OF COURSE!
b. You get e-bbc or whatever it's called! I've paid for my tv license so it's legal to watch! OF COURSE!
c. You get youtube! I've paid for my tv license... blah blah
d. You get tv-links, 14.alluc, etc. I've paid for my license... blah blah..
wait... if all the above ARE in fact legal, where is the problem in me:
e. You exchange with a friend an mp3.
?

It's weird and confusing.

Technically anything you download without paying is illegal, piracy, stealing, blah blah ! I can understand that, and respect that as well!

The arguemnt (to what Auriond said for example) is one: If you don't plan on buying, then you do know that you don't really "need" the track. It happens all the time. Not all music is amazing, but it might be catchy for 10-20 days... Solution? Certainly not buy the fucking album! Ridiculous! Buy the single? What for? To listen to a track?

And this is where things get hugely complicated:

*************

On the one corner, the hugely legal guy!

Everything you download bellongs to someone! Someone bothered, someone carred, someone took the time to make this happen, tallent, effort, sweat, knowledge, experience. Why would anyone want to take advantage of this for free? (re: because it's already free with radio and TV! D'OH!)

On the other corner, the normal fellow!

So what? Problem is that music is vomited anyway. Most pop (most: 95% or whatever depending on your definition. I live of music, can't have a definition) is rubbish! It is. whyt pay for it? just listen to it, make your life easier. Why wait for MTV to put the tracks on, when you have youtube or P2P?

************************

Have I donwloaded tracks for free?

Yes I have. 90% were tracks that I also have on CDs, due to boredom to make them into mp3s! (which on the legal side of things is also illegal! :p ridiculous but anyways).

The other 10% is tracks I've known for all my life. mmm mmm mmm mmm (crash test dummies), offsptring, madness and other stuff that nobody cares about really. And Mika as well! (kinoko likes him as well )

Are you a pirate?

Hmm... could be... I am. But very little! Really, if anyone checks the whole of my hard disks for mp3s/movies/etc, and charge me full price for the whole bunch, I'll end up paying $200! SO WHAT??!!??!

DRM gets on my nerves!

Petteri: why on earth did you use THAT website? If it wasn't on other websites it means its' "small", thus you could actually contact the band(s) straight and resolve this! Really!

I won't stop copying my tracks from my computer to my CDs and to my car tapes and to my mp3 player! NO! I refuse to do that, simply because it's within my rights! iTunes my arse! :@

_________________________________________

The other side:

If you check my website on the "classical" you'll notice 4-5 tracks in there, for download. I have NO PLANS of getting them out!

But I have plans of starting selling my music in CDs!

We'll see how it goes! But still I don't want to refuse people listening to my music, whenver, wherever, whatevre (even if I can't really compare to commercial pop music, and it's lame eitherway)

Sorry for the long post!

[InCreator]

I've never illegally downloaded music from the internet.

I've always illegally downloaded music from the internet.

Not in last few years though: I listen to trance, that has gone totally downwards and there's nothing to download. Also, we have youtube... which has almost any song I want to listen.

Anyway, I don't find music piracy being a crime. If my paid money doesn't let musician buy another Ferrari in addition to last three (s)he has, who cares?
But if my personal contribution is critical to his/her life - I mean, (s)he's not making much money, well, that's a shitty musician. Better get a REAL job!

Actually, South Park episode Christian Rock Hard wraps subject up pretty well.

[Snake]

I don't listen to music very often, unless it's mine or I'm in the mood for some AC/DC.

I'd rather own the actual CD then own an mp3. The whole idea of owning an mp3 just seems totally absurd to me. It's just not the same anyway.
I guess it's kind of like playing NES roms for free on the computer, but buying the same games for the Wii. I enjoy them more through an actual console on the TV - I'm a geezer too, Pete.
I've played the original Mario Bros. on the Wii more than I've EVER played it on the computer - it's just different.

Whenever I feel like listening to a song that I thought of and haven't heard in a long time, I download through LimeWire and that's it. I think that's perfectly fine. I'm not sitting there all night downloading every song under the midnight sky and burning CDs/copying to my mp3 player - which only consists of my music (with the exception of a handful of "real" songs) and that I only listen to while I go to sleep at night.


--Snake

[auriond]

But if my personal contribution is critical to his/her life - I mean, (s)he's not making much money, well, that's a shitty musician. Better get a REAL job!

That's a little unfair to the hundreds of unsigned indie musicians out there.... some of them are REALLY good, and are not popular or famous simply because they are unsigned. And there are many reasons why they might be unsigned... not just because they're bad.

[Nikolas]

Anyway, I don't find music piracy being a crime. If my paid money doesn't let musician buy another Ferrari in addition to last three (s)he has, who cares?
But if my personal contribution is critical to his/her life - I mean, (s)he's not making much money, well, that's a shitty musician. Better get a REAL job!

That's SO full of bullshit!

So insulting for SO MANY people!

But I promised that I wouldn't go down that road again to try and explain. There are one too many threads about this same thing.

[InCreator]

Hey, I consider myself an indie musician too!
But I'm referring to the genres I actually listen here!

I think that there's quite a large gap between - let's say The Beatles and <insert random dj name who said one day 'hey, I could do it'>. One is quality music, other simply a pop hit to fill radios for 2 weeks. After which, no one cares anymore.

I would gladly pay for a concert, for example. But mp3?

We have radio. Music channels on TV. All free. Don't forget Youtube and hundreds of web radio stations, giving free music from classic to jungle.

In clubs, for the price of one album (with 2-3 good tracks and loads of fillers just to get that album done), you have a DJ offering a mixing service, you get good sound system from which to listen, and whole load of various good tracks from different musicians.

With all this existing, paying for a single mp3 sounds stupid.

From my viewpoint. Yeah, it can be sad for a musician. But I simply don't care. I DO have legal CD's at home, problem is - I never care to use them. It's a hassle to find the box, open it, insert it. I can't carry it in my walkman unless I spend hours to convert them to mp3, etc. Finding a CD and getting music to play takes 5 minutes. As much as downloading from P2P. Only that I don't have to get up and comb through my CDs...

With 6 billion people on the planet, chances of musician still selling enough to fill his desire are quite good. I'm NOT that important, neither is my money.

But for some quality stuff, even I would buy all legally. Like classic music or Beatles or whatever of the level. Only on CD's, not MP3s.
Coming back to trance, i find it an insult to charge money of the crap artists produce after 1999. They totally mutilated and humiliated whole genre.

MP3, despite technical parameters and what scientist people say, is actually FAR below CD-Quality. It just is.

So, please don't act so hysterically about every my opinion that is a bit ignorant or selfish. I'm simply honest.

[Tuomas]

Well I've got to say, that's a pretty shitheaded attitute you've got there. Basically thinking like this makes the world full of peopel who think that one person can't do naught or won't have an effect. And with 40% of people thinking like that you know what happens. I really don't accept it, but if it's your choise then so be it, I'd never do like that myself.

[bicilotti]

I steal in churces on Sundays; I mean, someone who could afford to build Vatican city won't mind, will they?

[Becky]

You can be honest and still be selfish and ignorant, they're not mutually exclusive.

[InCreator]

True.
But one thing is illegal downloading and another is attitude behind it.

I'm not really downloading anything, as I said -- youtube and web radios cover all my musical needs. So I'm not doing anything wrong.

Do I need to change my way of thinking? Maybe.
But who cares?
Do I care?

What created modern pop music? Two things: Tape recorders and sampling. The true symbols of illegal music.

We could get really philosophical here and start discussing how reasonable is to tax airwaves and pieces of magnetic iron. Or notes. It would sound really stupid though.

And downloading?

1) I spend hours listening radio/watching MTV and that track to play. Free
2) I download track, listen, delete. Free

So, option 1 is legal and option 2 is illegal. Does it make sense? I really don't see this.
How does musician benefit from me sitting and waiting like a moron?

ESPECIALLY since I don't have money to buy album anyway. Either I listen illegaly or not, I still cannot pay for it. It doesn't change anything!

I prefer to think of albums as collectibles: It's not music you pay for, but a collection of creations of a person/group. Music, and how much you like it determines the quality of album and how much you want it. But a plastic disc is sold, not music itself. It's your contribution, support and bow towards group/person you admire and whom creations you like.
This way, it all makes sense.

And what if all people start stealing songs? Am I to blame?
Music was created as cultural output, not a way to earn living. Capitalism is what turned it into business. If musician likes what he does, buck here or there shouldn't matter.

If he's doing it for pure money, well, by my standards, no respect.
And I stay here, be as politically correct / nazi about free thinking as you wish. As always.

[Cino]

I have bought mp3's on several occasions, but only directly from artists themselves. The fact that no one else is taking their hard earned money from them is a big factor for me. But usually I buy vinyl records and CD's, though I mostly download it illegally first to see if it's worth the money. Haven't done much downloading lately though and I've only bought like 2 or 3 CD's this year (and without hearing their contents beforehand).

[Nikolas]

What created modern pop music? Two things: Tape recorders and sampling. The true symbols of illegal music.

come again? Pop music preexists tape records and sampling! rock 'n roll is a form of pop music! Back then the only thing were bombines (sp) and nothing else!

And downloading?

1) I spend hours listening radio/watching MTV and that track to play. Free
2) I download track, listen, delete. Free

So, option 1 is legal and option 2 is illegal. Does it make sense? I really don't see this.
How does musician benefit from me sitting and waiting like a moron?

Option 1 is legal because this way:
1. The tv channels get paid, via advertising.
2. You get what you want
3. The companies and artists get royalties

Option 2 bypasses everything, except yourself. Selfish!

ESPECIALLY since I don't have money to buy album anyway. Either I listen illegaly or not, I still cannot pay for it. It doesn't change anything!

Do't listen then. Why should you taste the fruits of someone's effort, talent, capital, etc for free? I don't get it really! There is no loss of revenue, true, but still if you don't think it's worthy of your $, then don't listen quite simple. If you want to listen, it simply means that it counts as something to you, in which case you should "reward" the artist and everything else included in the effort to bring the song to you.

Quit smoking and you get 5 albums per month! Or 100 mp3s or something! Am I wrong?

I prefer to think of albums as collectibles: It's not music you pay for, but a collection of creations of a person/group. Music, and how much you like it determines the quality of album and how much you want it. But a plastic disc is sold, not music itself. It's your contribution, support and bow towards group/person you admire and whom creations you like.
This way, it all makes sense.

If you want to listen to something, it means that you like, admire and bow towards the group/person, so... pay up!

And what if all people start stealing songs? Am I to blame?

Nobody is stealing anything. This is rubbish! Pirates are not thieves, it's ridiculous to think this way (I'm backing you up here. )

Music was created as cultural output, not a way to earn living. Capitalism is what turned it into business. If musician likes what he does, buck here or there shouldn't matter.

Hem... in order to become successful in anything it takes dedication, studying probably, experience, time, effort, sweat, money, etc. It's not capitalism. Even dead for long composers had a revenue through their music. Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Vivaldi, and all other known classical composers (and unknown). I mean it's quite simple. I spend all my life making music, right (not me personally). I also need to feed my family, because I spend all my life doing music and not something else, like work in a bank. A buck here or there does not matter then?

If he's doing it for pure money, well, by my standards, no respect.
And I stay here, be as politically correct / nazi about free thinking as you wish. As always.

Do you know for sure who is doing it only for the money and who is not? Do you know Britney, Madonna, Robbin Williams, Radiohead, NIN, and whatever else you want to put it and you know they're after money? Are you sure? Dead sure? So sure that you can lose respect over someone?

Weird... It's so easy as it seems for anyone to know the tax declarations of famous people! Miraculously easy. It's also quite easy as it seems to decide whether people need money or not. It's easy to decide for them! And it's also easy to not respect anyone who is working... And becoming famous because they are working...

[InCreator]

So much hysteria. Why?

I'm not stealing your music, Nikolas.
Infact, if you release something I like, I would gladly pay for it.

About sampling: Whole genres have been found on it. Again, I'm talking about music I listen. The kind of music that does not involve poor teenagers playing in parents garage.
They might need help to rise. Not a DJ who cuts together 3 most played songs and releases as someone - something (that DJ mix).

I'm downloading (or rather, downloaded before age of web radios and youtube) mp3's because it's cheaper and easier to do. Comfortable. If it irritates you that someone listens something you paid for - for free -- well, I won't stop you from downloading too. Or if you don't want to, well, don't complain. It's not like only downloaders are separate group of people who have ability to pirate music, actually anyone can do it. You made your choice, I made mine. We both made them because we thought it was best choice.
Why argue who is better? If I burn in hell for this, well, frankly I don't give a fuck -- I've lived a good life where I could listen to anything I want and not worry that I can't afford it.

It just is so.
Like it or not.

NO, I don't claim divine right to get everything free while others pay, if that's the spark that lit all the TNT here. But I won't pay for something if I don't find this well justified AND can get for free.

But I admit my stupidity: I should have sticked to "no" like Obi, and not forget about flame-consumer-parenting AGSers like to do always in threads like this...

[Nikolas]

But I admit my stupidity: I should have sticked to "no" like Obi, and not forget about flame-consumer-parenting AGSers like to do always in threads like this...

Oh never mind...

I shouldn't have posted as well. If you are to feel this way. 

But really this is a public forum, you say something trying to justify and excuse and provide explanation, so I'm also offering my opinion. What hysteria? I'm not selling anything, at the moment, am I? (might be in the future... ) I already said nobody is stealing anything and you can get and download all the mp3s I have in my website for free. What hysteria (again)?Don't get annoyed because your arguments are filled with water... Sorry.

But really, never mind... I certainly didn't want to parent you or flame you (did I flame you? When?) or anything.

Carry on...

[LimpingFish]

ESPECIALLY since I don't have money to buy album anyway. Either I listen illegaly or not, I still cannot pay for it. It doesn't change anything!

I can't afford to pay for that new PC game, so I guess I'll just torrent it instead. Hey, either I get it illegally or I don't get it at all.

I can't afford to pay for that cool leather jacket, so I guess I'll just wait for someone else to buy it, and steal it from them. Hey, either I get it illegally or I don't get it at all.

I can't afford to pay for that Ferrari 250 TR 61 Spyder Fantuzzi, so I guess I'll just carjack the next person I see driving one. Hey, either I get it illegally or I don't get it at all!

I can't afford to pay for high-class prostitutes, so I guess raping someone will have to do. Hey, either I get it illegally or I don't get it at all!

Extreme extrapolations, sure, but it doesn't change the core belief that we are somehow still entitled to something if we can't pay for it.

That attitude bugs the hell out of me.

"I didn't steal anything, I just downloaded some ones and zero!" Because it's not a physical object, it's not theft. Rubbish.

By that logic, I could steal a tune that Nikolas wrote, rerecord it, and pass it off as my own composition. I didn't steal anything physical, just a collection of aural resonations that happen to fall in a particular pattern. You can't hold the aural resonance of a progression of notes in your hand, so how is it stealing?!

I'm not judging people who illegally download music; it's their call either way. But the only reason someone illegally downloads music is because it's free and easy.

That makes you a thief. A digital thief, but a thief all the same.

And that's fine. No skin off my cheeks.

EDIT: From one extreme to the other.

[InCreator]

Wrong. Raping, Grand theft auto, etc is material displacement or manipulation.
You TAKE something. Physical.
Or there was a car. Now it's gone!

Seeing and listening is NOT. There won't be less song or movie if someone listens or watches it. There's no subtraction.

[LimpingFish]

But the principal is the same.

"I want something. I cannot pay for it. Therefore, I will take it."

Surely, you can't disagree with that?