Does opposing gay marriage make you an asshole?

[monkey0506]

But what you're saying boils down to "as long as I'm afraid of hell, I'll behave better".
And you still think you have the better morals?

I don't believe that I said my morals were better than anyone else's. This is a problem - a lot of what is being perceived isn't what is being said, on both sides. I think this is in human nature to do this, but it doesn't exactly help anyone.

I'm not "afraid of Hell". I choose to live how I choose to live, the same as you choose to live how you choose to live. What I am saying is that in my own life I am more likely to make positive moral decisions if I am striving to follow my faith. Seeing as my faith is almost entirely based around being a good moral person, this makes sense. You seem to be very close-minded toward the idea that anyone following religion could be making decisions for themselves instead of just blindly following. This isn't the case for me.

I said that I am more moral when following my faith because when I am living morally, I also choose to go to church, do service for others, work in my church's food pantry, etc. Not because anyone told me to, but because it makes me happy to do that. I enjoy helping others and being a good person, when I'm following my faith. When I'm not, I fall into severe depression, addiction, and become a generally miserable person. If nothing else, my faith gives me a set of guidelines which, by following, I choose to become a better person.

It also suspiciously sounds like "tbh, I don't really believe all this stuff, but I want to, since my life is going to degrade otherwise, so I'll keep pretending" (I don't use the word "pretending" to be insulting, only because one can't choose whether or not to believe something).

One absolutely can choose what to believe in. Unless you're making the assertion that no one is capable of making decisions for themselves and can only be influenced by the decisions that others around them are making and what they are told to do. I have educated myself about the options, and I have chosen for myself what to believe, based on what makes the most logical sense.

But since you pretty much rowed back on half of what you said earlier, let's leave it at that.

I didn't revoke any of what I said. Again, this goes back to the interpretation versus what I'm actually saying. I said right from the start that I didn't oppose granting them civil benefits.

[Khris]

If this wasn't enough, Jesus traded his life for his father forgiveness of all our sins.

This is what gets me every time: this entire thing doesn't make any sense. Even if we granted that God can't simply remove evil (which I don't), why does his son, who is also himself, need to be brutally tortured and killed? Why can't he just forgive? He is God, right? It's not like he's one of the cruel Aztec gods who demand a human sacrifice. Or is he?
To Catholics, this sacrifice is like the greatest thing ever. This is so ingrained into you that you don't even pause for one second to realize who grossly illogical and immoral it is.
Omniscient god creates man, but surprise: man misbehaves. Boom, loving god decides that all innocent babies are destined for eternal torture. Then he creates a loophole for his own rules and sends his son to be tortured. It's just laughably absurd.
Remove god from the equation, and suddenly everything makes perfect sense. Hippie creates cult, commits blasphemy, gets crucified, end of story. Followers blow the entire thing way out of proportion, and centuries later, people die by the millions. Way to go.

One absolutely can choose what to believe in.

No, you absolutely can't. But I'll clarify, in case we're talking past each other.
By "believe", I mean "accept as true". Either you're convinced, or you aren't. You cannot choose whether you find a claim convincing. Granted, there are people who keep telling themselves something they initially know isn't true, and if they keep at it, they'll believe it eventually ("I'm no addict", etc.).
But when it comes to religious belief of any kind, I didn't choose to not believe. I simply don't, and couldn't, even if I wanted to. It's not a matter of choice. I remain unconvinced.
You can choose how to deal with your (un)belief, but that's something else entirely.

[wisnoskij]

1. demand a human sacrifice.
2. You cannot choose whether you find a claim convincing.

The old testament is full of sacrifice and offerings, half of the book is about how to prepare offerings for God. And a not insignificant portion is ritualistic human sacrifice.
There has been some philosophizing about Jesus being a completely new God, come to save mankind from the evil Old Testament God. I think the story makes far more sense taken that way.

2. I disagree.

[Khris]

The story told in the Bible doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

2. Then you should think more about this. This isn't an opinion, it is fact. Unless of course you're the first person on the planet who has absolute control over their entire thought process. If I told you I could fly like Superman, you'd instinctively disbelieve it. There's no conscious decision involved. You hear it and your very first thought is "yeah, right". But if I then suddenly started flying circles around you, you'd completely abandon your disbelief on the spot. You'd become convinced of my claim long before your jaw would hit the ground. You have no control over whether you believe something. What you can do of course in certain situations is make a concerted effort to suspend belief either way, until you have more facts.
People don't throw away their faith, they lose it.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Humans are hardwired with an evolutionary mechanism to always feel as though we're being watched. It's that very reason when you're alone that you always feel someone is watching you. It's likely the contributing factor as to why humans have instinctively created "God(s)" who all "watch" over them. It's probably also the very reason many people hold onto their religious beliefs because they feel comfortable believing this being watched feeling is someone looking down on them, protecting them.

On a side-note, when I was younger, when I watched the Truman Show, I immediately replaced that "feeling of being watched" with the idea of me being Truman. It made sense to me when I was younger because I ALWAYS had that feeling and never knew why I had it. (I've grown up since then, I promise)

[Ponch]

Ryan, you feel like someone is watching you because I'm watching you. Right now. Through the window behind the sofa. I'm covering myself in Famous Dave's Sweet N' Sassy sauce as I type this.

[Ryan Timothy B]

That's what that smell is? Damn! I've been licking my lips with my mouth watering, completely baffled and wondering what that was. But why cover yourself in BBQ sauce? Are you a piece of meat? Do you need me to tenderize you? I'll do it. Where did you go?

[wisnoskij]

Humans are hardwired with an evolutionary mechanism to always feel as though we're being watched.

I think that must just be you...

[miguel]

Wisnoskij, Ryan's right. That feeling is interpreted in different ways. It can go from divine to superstition to magic or even alien events. People call it what they want. But it is a fact. Humans do sense something other than what they see.

...why does his son, who is also himself, need to be brutally tortured and killed?

, by Khris

Well Khris, I am not going to explain it to you because my good friend, I am just a guy that interpreted it my own way. I do not own or know the truth. But, this said, it's pretty simple that Jesus, God's son, died to be remembered forever. He died and people told his story because it meant something to people.
As a physical person he was as weak as me and you, but his ideas and way of life are 2000 year old and still being defended by guys like me.
You can compare God, you can compare Jesus to hippies and remember us about the first born massacre. You can even consider me as a hill billy.
You can, but you can also take it easy, like I do.
You see, I choose to love Jesus and his way because I want to.

Spoiler

And, more serious now, if any of you want to really debate religion, I do know what's written in the bible, I don't google it. I also own several other gospels that didn't go into the bible. I know the facts like places, names and events that are historically proven and the ones not.I would rather not continue this as I find much more funny to joke about it, and joke about ourselves.

[close]

[Khris]

I get where you're coming from. And I'm not interested in personal beliefs of other people. UNLESS they use them to justify taking away equal rights from other people (or misrepresent atheism).
You can wallow in cognitive dissonance and bronze age legends as much as you want, but don't tell other people they can't be happy because you can't cope with having to explain to your brat why their classmate has two daddies.
Unless you're a creationist, read on:

Spoiler

If you accept an old earth and evolution, consider the following, courtesy of Christopher Hitchens: Humans have been around for at least 100,000 years. Which means that for 98,000 years, while humans are afraid of the dark and predators, only live to be 30, die during childbirth or of their teeth, are terrified by natural disasters, wipe out other tribes, and generally are reigned by terror and mayhem, heaven watches with indifference. A civilization gets wiped out by their neighbors, and god is like "look, there they go again". But then, 2000 years ago, heaven suddenly intervenes. God appears to one of the most barbaric and backwards people, not to the Chinese, who can already read, and leads them to the only place in the near east where there's no oil.

[close]

[miguel]

Hahahaha! You see? You can be a funny guy, in your special way.
Anyway, you do know that you tend to sum everything into the same bag. And while you are at it, it's pretty simple that this 2000 year story has been told over and over during the 100,000 years of humans on Earth.

[Bluke4x4]

This thread's pretty long! I was really surprised by people at all being surprised by Doug Tennapel being like this because he's been like this for a long time. I remember when I was 12 I got three of his graphic novels and they had so many cool drawings and ideas! And then, weirdly, a straw-man atheist protagonist who has an epiphany and believes in God by the end of the story. Odd!

A friend tells me there's a video going around where Tennapel is actually crying about the controversy, like physically crying, and says he just is so sad that there are people not funding the project because of him when there's a giant staff of artists working on it who will not get to work on it if it is not funded. I don't really sympathize with him and I'm probably not going to fund it but I don't think there's much wrong with.. hoping it gets funded? I would rather his game get made than it not get made.

[Baron]

Gay marriage is all fine and dandy, although from what I've seen the gaiety of marriage usually doesn't last more than a couple years.  Now what we really need is more gay divorce.  Where's all that acrimony going to get you in the end?  Bitter, jaded, and way in hock to the law profession, that's where.  The world would be so much the better place if folks would just laugh it off and move on.

[miguel]

The world would be so much the better place if folks would just laugh it off and move on.

Indeed, Baron.
Or if we could be Peter Griffin once in a while.

[Khris]

Moving on sounds great, unfortunately though, some asshole wrote this a long time ago:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So don't talk about moving on until you reject the bible in its entirety, ok? Otherwise you're just a cherry-picking hypocrite.
Like I said before, at least fundamentalists are consistent.

[Snarky]

So don't talk about moving on until you reject the bible in its entirety, ok? Otherwise you're just a cherry-picking hypocrite.

Rejecting some parts of the Bible while accepting others is not necessarily hypocritical. Christianity is much more than the Bible. Ignoring the several thousand years of interpretation and reinterpretation (however convenient or tortured) that makes up the body of Christian theology shows either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty.

[miguel]

Thank you Snarky, and one doesn't have to be religious to acknowledge that.
For some people, truth is something so important to them that they'll loose the ability to move on.

[Khris]

Again, why call yourself a Christian if you reject parts of the bible?
I'm perfectly aware of the fact that there are as much versions of Christianity as there are Christians, which is why I call them cherry-pickers.
Calling yourself Christian and being OK with gay marriage is a contradiction, plain and simple. It's like claiming you're a vegetarian while still eating fish.
Either follow the inspired word of Yahweh, the creator of everything, and call yourself a Christian, or don't.

And theology is nothing more than desperately trying to wrestle with the fact that the bronze age morality of religion has no place in a modern civilized society. They interpret and reinterpret and reinterpret, and suddenly the six days of creation become six ages. Right. I don't want to call theology ridiculous and laughable, but that's what it is. Here's a fine link explaining why: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_Reply
(Not the parts that are about actual scientific work, like how the bible was authored, of course.)

[miguel]

And why do you fail to see that Christians are capable of questioning their symbols, to interpret them in different ways and even question their faith?
It's all a matter of choice.
Christians are aware that there's not a Bible written every year, they are aware of who wrote it and to whom it was directed.
Christians are also aware of the other gospels that aren't part of the bible.

Regarding Gay marriage and gay relations:
to a Catholic like me, the teachings of Jesus are above all, meaning that while it's written on the Bible or the Vatican issues a statement against gay relations, I am capable of loving gay people and gay relationships as I would do with "straight" couples.
I am also capable of understanding why the Vatican is against gays. I can agree or disagree and still be guilty free if I don't follow exactly their way.
To you this sounds like contradiction, to us is just how things evolve.

[Khris]

If I don't eat any meat except fish, I don't call myself "evolved vegetarian". Doesn't matter what reason I have, I am no vegetarian, period.
It's even worse with Catholicism; there's the infallible vicar of Christ, the head of the church. You oppose some of his views, yet still see yourself as a Catholic. It's just mind-boggling.
It's motivated reasoning and cognitive dissonance par excellence.

Why not just ditch all the amoral Jesus crap and simply live a happy life of peace and love for your neighbor? I just don't get it.