Buying a MIDI keyboard

[Oliwerko]

Hi there lads,

I've come to the point where I want to get myself a MIDI keyboard, for typing z's to get C's is getting tiresome and inconvenient. I'm still a beginner in this field and thus I would appreciate some advice.

I always thought that for a MIDI keyboard, you need a MIDI cable and a MIDI input on your soundcard. Recently, I discovered that majority of the keyboards work through USB! My question is - is there any notable latency when USB is used?

I have a Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer soundcard, which (if I'm not mistaken) has also ASIO support. That means latencies should be minimal, is it true?
Is a USB cable really all I need?

Another thing is what exact brand/type to get. I want a 61-key keyboard, for 49 is nice, but still rather small. 88 is expensive and spacey, so I guess 61 is a golden middle way.

I've been thinking of M-Audio Oxygen 61 - http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Oxygen61.html
It's priced at about 160 EUR here, which is about the max I am willing to pay.

Another I was checking out was Behringer UMX61 - http://www.behringer.com.au/EN/Products/UMX61.aspx
and also E-MU Xboard 61 - http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=532&subcategory=533&product=15164

Is there anything I should pay special attention to? Does anyone have any experience with the above keyboards?
I am primarily interested in the Oxygen, because it has sliders beside knobs, which seems to me very useful, but again, I may be mistaken.


Thanks for any pointers, I want to be sure I know what I'm buying before I buy it 

[Calin Leafshade]

Basically the keyboards have a little midi interface inside so its exactly the same as buying a usb midi interface and then plugging a keyboard into the interface. Its just less wires. The software will recognise it as a midi interface just like normal.

As for latency it all depends on just how fast your soundcard can handle it. I havent had a consumer level 'gaming' card for ages so i dont really know. Midi latency is basically negligible most of the time so you dont really need to worry about that.

Audio latency however is quite important. My MOTU card can get about 3ms latency, which is equivalent to standing about 3 feet from your speakers but providing you can keep the latency below about 15ms you should be ok.

In terms of the actual keyboard you buy I would probably go for the Oxygen, extra midi controls are always nice and behringer stuff is for hobos... fact

[Chicky]

Behringer make stuff that works, but don't have anything on the quality of the genuine article.

Saying that, my understanding is that any midi keyboard with a full scale of keys does the job. I would say that you get a cheaper keyboard so you have some money left for a sound card if need be. Maybe see if there's a way of testing them on your machine before buying them? :/

[Oliwerko]

Well, there's probably no way I could try it out first. Borrowing is also a no-no, nobody I know has one.

And I don't really have much money left in reserve for the soundcard either. But from what I've seen the X-fi series have full ASIO support and claim to have latencies of ~2ms, and generally what I found around on the internet, these cards truly have low latencies. So I hope that shouldn't be a problem.

Full keyboard is too spacey for my current conditions, and I also don't need the full range. 61 is just right for me (besides, oxygen is not made in 88 version  )

Are there perhaps any other models I should check out?

[LimpingFish]

I'm cursed with the same soundcard; latency is fine, but it's pretty much hobbled in every other department. For basic stuff, though, it'll do the job.

Up until recently I was using a Alesis Photon 25 (single octave controller), and found it perfectly usable, though I recently replaced it with an Akai Professional MPK49.

If memory serves, the Photon 25 cost me under E150, and it's durable and USB-powered. The MPK49 is nifty, but retails for about twice that.

If it's something you plan on just composing midi tunes on, you won't be needing many bells and whistles. Nice responsive keys should be your main concern.

[InCreator]

Owner of Edirol PC-50 which I bought few years ago.
It's a cheap end keyboard (I think) but Roland makes em' pretty high quality, lottsa buttons and functions etc. There's no feeling of a cheap keyboard anywhere.

So what to say about this?
First, there's noticeable latency between press and sound. Might be USB issue, or soundcard or Fruity Loops, which can probably successfully choke even on NASA computers...
I suspect USB and wouldn't have bought USB keyboard if I knew before.

It's almost mint condition, to be honest, I haven't used it almost at all. It's bulky and I don't have space for it. Plus, juggling between mouse and keyboard isn't very comfortable really. Before MIDI keyboard I played notes on actual keyboard and wished I had something that's easier to use. Right now I'm still doing the same...

I guess I didn't need keyboard at all. Or I need a studio for comfortable placement for this huge rig.
Right now, I very rarely compose music so most of the time, keyboard would be simply wasting desk space and collecting dust.

So I packed it into box again. And it's waiting for better days, shiny and brand new.

Funny, same happened with tablet which I craved for sooooo much...

[Adrian  ]

hello I see you are interested in buying MIDI keyboards, I have seven for sale, they make twelve sounds, five of which are useful. Let us assume you want fifteen MIDI keyboards I cannot offer fifteen keyboards, sorry.

[kaputtnik]

One very important piece of advice: Don't go for the fancy sliders and knobs. If you are a beginner at audio editing and composition, what could you possibly want to trigger? Filters, envelopes? Consider: how many of these are you going to manipulate in realtime at once?

If you only compose and don't do live stuff, a keyboard with one slider, two potis, pitch and mod wheel will do the trick. Also: 61 keys for a beginner? Starting out with a 25er be just fine I suppose, since you probably can't use your left and right hand at once and will rather be playing and recording bass registers and melodies seperately. It's much nicer though having a big keyboard with lots of knobs for playing around with your favourite synthesizer, that's for sure, but you should consider if it is worth the money.

If you want to learn basic keyboard or piano hand coordination, go for a 49 key keyboard, this will cover all you need. Useful hint: To further save money, get a cheap old MIDI enabled keyboard (maybe even an Atari, Amiga or C64 one = style bonus +6000) off your favourite second hand dealer or internet platform and a MIDI to USB adapter (they start at about 5 Euro).

Hope this is useful to you - if you are lucky, maybe you can even get a nice little hardware synth with MIDI output. Or, if you are more comfortable playing guitar, get a MIDI guitar, they come really cheap (Yamaha EZ-EG for example). Or how about that one: http://www.tonleiter.com/toneladder/Econcept.html ?

[Oliwerko]

InC - are you running ASIO or not?

kaputtnik - thanks for input. I am a beginner, but improving - and the thing why I want 61 keys w/ a handful of sliders and knobs is also because I'm not planning to upgrade the keyboard anytime soon.

160 EUR is not really cheap, but hey, a 16-key keyboard with a handful of sliders is well worth to me. I get what you mean by not recording live, and not recording with two hands at once. You are right, but still - as you said - it's nice to play with, and it's worth the money to me. I don't know how fast I'll improve and having a keyboard like I'm considering now would suffice for some time I guess.

I cannot play guitar, but that ladder is really cool 

{O/T: About that hand coordination - can it possibly be done on my own? I was always very skeptical when considering to learn play from scratch on my own, since I'm on the side of 'musical school learning kids'.}

[kaputtnik]

I understand what you mean: It's just very motivating to have exactly that toy you imagined to play with. But on the other hand, I am big fan of "getting equipment that matches your skills", just to reward yourself if you are making progress. If you start with very basic equipment and get something else once you feel you've really explored all the possibilities of it and then go for a new one, learning is just more fun. In my opinion at least.

But, as I said, if you can spare the money and feel like getting the one that just looks or feels best to you, that's probably the way to go. There is really not much difference between, let's say, the Korg Keycontrol series and a very cheap E-MU or M-Audio or something in that line. Although it seems that both E-MU and M-audio (some years ago the cheapest and most basic equipment possible) have really improved in quality.

About the "learning hand coordination". This depends on what you want to achieve. You certainly won't be able to learn classical piano that way, it is just to specific and too frustrating to learn on your own. If you want to learn the "solo entertainer" approach (chords with the left hand, melody with the right hand), you can figure that out on your own with tutorials and stuff from the internet, or maybe a book.

If you want to learn how to play your synthesizer with two hands, you can easily do that on your own. The most simple pattern can sound great with a good synthesizer sound and a good feel for rhythm on part of the player, and most synth players only have one hand on the keyboard and the other one on their 32² control knobs anyway.

[Oliwerko]

If you want to learn the "solo entertainer" approach (chords with the left hand, melody with the right hand), you can figure that out on your own with tutorials and stuff from the internet, or maybe a book.

That's very nice to hear.

Anyway - I'm not a kid with a lot of money to spend, but I do like to have decent equipment to learn on. I have some good experience with it (buying quality lockpicks instead of a "beginner" set was a good idea 'cause I didn't have to buy twice), so I'm looking for a middle way. Besides, having some sliders/knobs on a keyboard makes up for a basic MIDI controller...

[SinSin]

Check this out lolz Wowza lolz

[Oliwerko]

Yeah I've been recommended to look at it a few times already 
Negative.

I want some knobs'n'sliders too.

[SinSin]

I recently replaced it with an Akai Professional MPK49.

That looks awesome!!

[CShelton]

I have a very expensive Roland RP-101 electric piano, a fast computer, and USB midi cables. And I have latency issues.

I'm going to have to agree that latency is simply a fact with USB midi. However, you can have headphones hooked in to your keyboard so that you can play latency free, its just the computer side sound that lags.

I'm not a good enough musician for this to be an issue.

[Oliwerko]

Okay, here we go:

Today I went and checked out the Oxygen, because they had it physically in the shop. I bought it right away.
It's exactly how I wanted it, the key response is soft, sliders and knobs work perfectly. The aftertouch is a bit insensitive, so you have to hit really hard to get full 'loud' effect, but I'm probably not gonna use it during composing anyway.

Now the fun part:
I unpacked it, plugged in the USB cable and that's it. It has no audible delay whatsoever. This gives new meaning to the phrase Plug'n'play, I guess  

It's a bit more spacey than I thought it would be, but 61 keys will suffice for a long time for me.
So - at the first glance, it's just what I wanted. Experience will show more, but from trying it out today, I could only recommend.

EDIT:

Mainly for CShelton's and similar cases:

Today I've looked into the latency in detail. In Renoise, with several VST instances running and CPU at around 25%, I can set the ASIO latency to 4ms and not hear any clicking. 5ms was the default setting, and I've had no problems with it. On 2ms the sound starts to crackle, but hey, don't expect 2ms from Creative 

So - I don't think it's the USB connection that's causing high latencies. I'd bet on the software you make the music in is CPU-heavy.
Just my experience, hope it helps somebody.