Three cheers for the Egyptian people and their quest for freedom
May they prevail ...
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News/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/03/egypt-coup-risks-violence/2487623/
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=egypt&oq=egypt&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j0l9j43i53.21116.22962.0.23447.5.3.0.2.2.0.100.289.1j2.3.0...0.0...1ac.1.s66obyGAkFk
Music
Here is my oldies playlistdedicated to the heroic Egyptian protesters
"People Got to be Free" by The Young Rascals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ntcMjYL7hc)
Young Rascals - How Can I Be Sure (1967) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuKeSUUK-A4)
Turn Turn Turn- lyrics-The Byrds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_zXhD3vZ_g)
The Youngbloods - Get Together - 1967 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53XyCbIJGKY)
Simon & Garfunkel - Bridge over troubled water (with lyrics) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjNgn4r6SOA)
Rhythm of the Rain by The Cascades]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwgKQBC1xts]Rhythm of the Rain by The Cascades (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwgKQBC1xts)
Jimmy Dean - Big Bad John (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy7arhKbQkQ)
Montani Semper Liberi (Latin for "Mountaineers are Always Free") is the official motto of the state of West Virginia, USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_West_Virginia#Motto)
Take Me Home Country Roads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znN8m0KAOGI)
Egyptian people to the to the ex pres.
Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye - Steam - 1969 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZkYGcz1DgI)
Ex pres to the Egyptian people
Leaving on a Jet Planes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa3h3pnhg8s)
The mix-tape is thoughtful, full of quality songs and definitely appropriate; good job!
Getting back on topic (caveat, little I know about the events): wasn't the change obtained via a military coup? I agree that most of the time democracy and liberty are orthogonal values, but still...
The Egyptian people are turning more and more into a comedy every day.
Didn't they start with some sort of dictator.
Then through protests and military in-action forced him to resign. Then they thought it was a good idea to hand all that power over to the man who already has control of the military, because the only thing better than a dictator is a general and a dictator all rolled into one, with absolute control of both the civilians and the military.
Somehow they actually democratically elected someone to rule them, who I have been told was generally honest with his all his intentions and beliefs, and he is overthrown by a military coup, and one of the old officials from two years ago is put in charge.
So basically everyone thought they could rule better than the original rulers, but apparently it did not turn too well.
I like that democracy is served and that it's taking its baby steps in there. I hope the people understand what true democracy is all about and use it correctly because it can be misused. If the majority are pricks they will elect a prick president. What happened in Egypt is far beyond an event occurring yesterday or a couple of years ago, it was built up for decades. Morsi won the elections with a 51% of the votes against another single candidate (Shafiq). Many of those votes were given to Morsi not because he is a good leader, other factors played a role such as representing religion, the rage and hate towards the old government and (Shafiq) was one of them. After the revolution and winning the elections, Egyptians thought that the decades of poverty are finally over and they will live in ease the next day. Too bad the after math of revolutions against tyranny takes a while. The corruption was not removed entirely from the country due to its deep roots reaching every single governmental and private institute. The new elected leader with the new elected constitution limited the president's ruling which is not bad at all if there is a good parliament elected as well representing all ethnics and social sectors. Egyptians (and most Arabs and middle-eastern nations) are not prepared yet for this kind of free well (this doesn't mean they can't have it). Through history, leaders of Egypt were not elected by the people. Morsi was the first Egyptian to be elected by free well. He kept his word of serving his country and democracy to the highest standards. The Egyptian media has shifted from the "ever scared to talk about presidents" into free speech and mocking the president, saying and doing whatever you want. The same people who got out against Morsi the few days ago are the same people who got out shoulder by shoulder with his supporters raging against SCAF (Supreme Council of the Armed Forces) and against military ruling. I personally believe that SCAF is ruling Egypt now and the revolution is taking a very dangerous turn. No one dares to talk about the Supreme Court as if they were Gods and it was kept this way and injected into people's minds all during the revolution until now. SCAF finally turns against Morsi and gives temporary 'management of the country' to the court. The same court that is slowly stalking Mubarak's trials and exonerate him from all accusations. The exact moment SCAF completed their speech last night, all Morsi's supporting media were shut instantly like the finale of The Sopranos, and arrested. And the Egyptian police attacked 'Al-Jazeera' offices in Cairo and shut them down...
Hello freedom.
Edit: added "and arrested..."
Quote from: wisnoskij on Thu 04/07/2013 02:06:01
Somehow they actually democratically elected someone to rule them, who I have been told was generally honest with his all his intentions and beliefs, and he is overthrown by a military coup, and one of the old officials from two years ago is put in charge.
So basically everyone thought they could rule better than the original rulers, but apparently it did not turn too well.
I think you take a naive view. Where have you heard that Morsi was 'generally honest with all his intentions and beliefs'? Secular Egyptians accuse him of being aggressively divisive in his pursuit of an Islamist agenda.
But I agree with biclotti that, as much as I might dislike the Muslim Brotherhood, the ousting of an elected leader by the military is a very worrying sign. We talk about Egypt as if it's undergone two revolutions in as many years, but I wonder how far the power has ever shifted away from the military establishment.
Most military coups happen in times of unrest and unhappiness with the government. Most of them are not for the better. Let's hope this is the exception.
Quote from: Ali on Thu 04/07/2013 10:18:47
I think you take a naive view. Where have you heard that Morsi was 'generally honest with all his intentions and beliefs'? Secular Egyptians accuse him of being aggressively divisive in his pursuit of an Islamist agenda.
Morsi has been a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood for almost a decade, and in that role as even been in politics in Egypt and was a member of parliament back in 2000.
He never pretended he was anything else, and ran as the head of the official Muslim Brotherhood party.
The Muslim Brotherhood which is known and officially states that their goal is to instil the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ...ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state."
The Muslim Brotherhood is not some secret hidden movement, it announces to the world exactly how they would do things if put in charge, and admits to most of the things they do.
While I admit that this is an unprecedented Democratic first, there was zero hidden agenda here. Over 50% of the population voted for this man to perform all of the changes that he then subsequently performed. But neither he, nor the Egyptian people ever had the power to really decide how the country was run in the first place.
I didn't say he was part of a clandestine organisation. But Morsi having achieved a small majority doesn't justify his exclusion of secular groups from power. Especially since the protests which ousted Mubarak owed so much to them.
You're talking about the Egyptian people as if they were children who got what they asked for and then changed their minds. I think that is a naive perspective when there are people being killed on the streets.
I also find it a bit weird that you've edited your original post.
I think I edited to add in everything after "The Egyptian people are a joke" line. I edit 99% of the posts I make to expand on comments and fix spelling mistakes, why is that weird?
And all of that was a necessary step to accomplished Brotherhood goals. You might not agree with it. There might be thousands of Egyptians who disagree with it. But that is not the point, the point is not even if over 50% of Egyptians disagree with it, but if The brotherhood hid their intentions and lied during the election, and if so, why not legally depose him.
Quote from: Ali on Thu 04/07/2013 15:49:31I think that is a naive perspective when there are people being killed on the streets.
I do not know what being killed has to do with being smart, knowledgeable, and having a just cause.
(http://www.economicthought.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/knowledge-and-confidence.jpg)
That first maxima is, of course, political protesters/rioters. I thought is was extremely obvious that when anyone at all thought that is was a good idea that the military take control of the civilian government the first time, that obviously no one over their had any idea what they were doing, or what they wanted.
Unfortunately, many Muslim countries either saw the dictators or bad governors ruling them. Pakistan is no exception to this. We have seen many dictators here.
Egypt's situation is continuously being broadcast here, in Pakistan. Seeing all the transmissions. I wonder only one thing: Why did the people have to go out on the streets for a democratic leader in the first place when they were to be out on the streets again but this time against their democratic leader?
Many lives lost in the previous "revolution". Many lives have lost in this "revolution" too. A life lost is worth greater the loss of 1000 Kohinoor Diamonds being stolen and definitely more than that.
Sad thing is that they are trying to look for the revolution but aren't ready to change themselves.
Quote from: wisnoskij on Thu 04/07/2013 16:20:14
I do not know what being killed has to do with being smart, knowledgeable, and having a just cause.
I don't know what 'being smart, knowledgeable, and having a just cause' has to do with what I said. To dismiss the protesters as idiots is facile and tasteless.
You do not know what being smart and knowledgeable has to do with not being an idiot??
I genuinely struggle to understand what you're saying. But you do seem to have a lot of confidence in your viewpoint.
Burn.
Quote from: Ali on Thu 04/07/2013 17:20:50
I genuinely struggle to understand what you're saying. But you do seem to have a lot of confidence in your viewpoint.
I just reworded your statement. You apparently do not understand what the protesters not 'being smart, knowledgeable, and having a just cause' has to do with "protesters [being] idiots". That is logically confusing.
You are saying that I should not dismiss the protesters as being idiots, and you do not know what me giving proof about their idiocracy has to do with anything?
I am trying to say, I am not casually dismissing them as idiots, I am dismissing them as idiots as there are loads of specific and general reasons to believe that angry mobs are idiots in both the general and this specific case.
It is easy to change the world. Changing it for the better is basically statistically impossible.
This guys fighting for freedom are raping women on the public square because they "don't have the right to be involved in politics". So I don't really have much sympathy for them.
51% of the vote was by corrupt methods.
RE: 'being smart, knowledgeable, and having a just cause'
1. Everyone, regardless if they are 'idiots' or 'smart and knowledgeable', yearns for freedom.
2. Freedom is always a just cause.
3. Smart and knowledgeable people know that's it's foolish to believe one has more than a superficial understanding of another country's culture and/or politics. ;)
Quote from: RickJ on Sat 06/07/2013 23:43:24
1. Everyone, regardless if they are 'idiots' or 'smart and knowledgeable', yearns for freedom.
2. Freedom is always a just cause.
3. Smart and knowledgeable people know that's it's foolish to believe one has more than a superficial understanding of another country's culture and/or politics. ;)
And yet you are trying to tell me what Egyptians believe, what they are trying to do, and if they are going about this well.
Quote
And yet you are trying to tell me what Egyptians believe, what they are trying to do, and if they are going about this well.
I haven't made any statements about what Egyptian people believe have I. Don't you understand that the text you quote is an expression of my beliefs.
You specifically said that they "yearn for freedom."
You don't read very carefully do you?
I said "Everybody, ..., yearns for freedom." In the context of whether or not being "smart and knowledgeable" is a prerequisite.
[edit]
Btw, thanks for making my point ;)
Egyptians are a subset of everybody, so you said that Egyptians yearn for freedom, among many others.
"3. Smart and knowledgeable people know that's it's foolish to believe one has more than a superficial understanding of another country's culture and/or politics."
And you are the one who said "their quest for freedom"
All I said was that they were doing a very bad at whatever they were trying to accomplish.
Quote from: wisnoskij on Sun 07/07/2013 01:46:41
Egyptians are a subset of everybody, so you said that Egyptians yearn for freedom, among many others.
Are you suggesting that RickJ is incorrect in suggesting that people yearn for freedom? If so then that is bizarre.
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Sun 07/07/2013 02:02:20
Are you suggesting that RickJ is incorrect in suggesting that people yearn for freedom? If so then that is bizarre.
I am suggesting that he contradicts his own statement.
But I would say that. There is not a democratic country that I know anything about that does not constantly give away freedoms. They obviously dislike freedom, or at least care not at all for it.
"Most human beings only think they want freedom. In truth they yearn for the bondage of social order, rigid laws, materialism, the only freedom man really wants, is the freedom to become comfortable." - John Teller