English 101 with Trihan sometimes!

[Stupot]

I worked at the Odeon when Horton Hears a Who was released...
One of my colleagues was French...
Hilarity Ensued

[nihilyst]

Is there a difference between "on" and "about", as in "on writing" and "about writing"?

[Scarab]

Is there a difference between "on" and "about", as in "on writing" and "about writing"?

Could you give an example sentence? I'm not sure I understand without any context.

If you mean 'writing on' and 'writing about' then the only difference I can think of is the subject matter that is referred to. Writing on usually refers to a blanket issue or topic.
e.g. "Jim is writing a self-help book on marriage"
Note: 'about' can be used  interchangeably here, although 'on' is, I believe, the convention when referring to books and reports.

'Writing about' refers to the content.
e.g. "In it he will be writing about confidence, communication and rekindling the romance"
In this example, 'on' isn't really interchangeable. 'Writing about' is the one you'd use 9 times out if 10.

Hope this helps
Scar

[nihilyst]

Yeah, thanks. I had to think of Stephen King's book "On Writing". Could he have named it "About Writing" instead? According to your explanations, he could, so thanks

[paolo]

Yeah, thanks. I had to think of Stephen King's book "On Writing". Could he have named it "About Writing" instead? According to your explanations, he could, so thanks

Yes, he could have, but there is a subtle difference, I think. "On Writing" sounds more scholarly than "About Writing". The title "On ..." is typically used for academic publications, whereas "About ..." would be a more suitable title for a book aimed at a more general market. That's the way I see it, anyway.

[monkey0506]

To me "On Writing" also sounds much more personalized than "About Writing". For example if I saw the book titled "On Writing" by Stephen King I would take it as, "This is Stephen King's thoughts, ideas, impressions, etc. on the topic of writing..." whereas "About Writing" might seem more generalized as "Stephen King wrote this book about the topic of writing..." That's how it seems to me anyway.

[Stupot]

Yeh, in this context I think they are pretty much interchangeable.  Take the following few example phrases:

1. the Prime Minister's speech on climate change.
2. my essay on the existence of black holes.
3. that documentary on why fat people fart more than thin people.
4. Stephen King's book on writing called On Writing.

In each of these sentences 'on' could be swapped to 'about', but Paolo has a point... Notice most of my examples were all documentaries, essays and speechs focusing on some specific area of academic or specialist interest.

It's a weird use of the preposition which can create some interesting(?) ambiguities:

5. the documentary on BBC2.
(was it a documentary about cats that was broadcast on BBC2, or a documentary about BBC2 that was broadcast on Sky1?)

6. I read the paper on the table.
(this could technically have 3 possible meanings...)
7. I read the paper that had been placed upon the table.
8. I read the paper while I was standing on the table.
9. I read the paper that had been written on the subject of 'The Table'

In fact, interestingly, it seems that 'on' is really just a condensed version of 'on the subject of'.  This usage of 'on' seems to have evolved from the longer version, which was possibly shortened because of the awkwardness of having two prepositional phrases for essentially one peice of information.

[TerranRich]

I've always believed "on" in that context was short for something like "focusing on". "The Prime Minister's speech [focusing] on climate change." "I'm writing a book [focusing] on the economy."

Makes sense.

[Mr Flibble]

To me "on" implies musings whereas "about" implies general information. So I'd consider "on" to be more subjective.

[monkey0506]

Flibble I like the way you said exactly what I was trying to say, only better.


A friend of mine is notorious for confusing "write", "right", and "Wright". To assist her (and certainly not to make fun of her in any way... :) I wrote this:


Mr. Wright wrote a letter to right a wrong, which due to an error was sent to Hong Kong. It went to the left instead of the right, which could have been avoided if he'd learned to write more legibly so the address could have been read; for now you see Mr. Wright is dead! The moral dear children is learn to spell before the time comes for your funeral bell.

[Baron]

I've had a crisis of confidence in my English grammar paradigm:
     I've always been told to use the subject "I" instead of the object "me" when pairing myself with someone else as a subject.  For example, it is proper to say "Johny and I made an adventure game," while it is improper to say "Johny and me made an adventure game."  I understand now, after a Latin class in university, that "I" is nominative and "me" is accusative, dative, etc.  I was comfortable with the fact that English inherited these rules from Latin, or at least had these rules successfully grafted onto the language, so assimilating them into my everyday usage was easy.
     But just today I noticed a quirk in French: nobody says "Johny et je avons fait un jeux aventeur!"  They say "Johny et moi avons fait un jeux aventeur!" (all verb conjugation and spelling errors are mine, but stay focussed on the pronouns).  French, classified as a romance language and descended directly from [vulgar] Latin speakers (compared to the germanic English), doesn't obey the Latin rules!  And English is much more influenced by French (spoken by the ruling classes for three centuries during the formative period of Middle English) than by Latin (known only to the elite clergy virtually until modern English had fully formed).  So my question is, shouldn't it be proper to say "Johny and me...." after all?!?

[Scarab]

I've had a crisis of confidence in my English grammar paradigm:
     I've always been told to use the subject "I" instead of the object "me" when pairing myself with someone else as a subject.  For example, it is proper to say "Johny and I made an adventure game," while it is improper to say "Johny and me made an adventure game."  I understand now, after a Latin class in university, that "I" is nominative and "me" is accusative, dative, etc.  I was comfortable with the fact that English inherited these rules from Latin, or at least had these rules successfully grafted onto the language, so assimilating them into my everyday usage was easy.
     But just today I noticed a quirk in French: nobody says "Johny et je avons fait un jeux aventeur!"  They say "Johny et moi avons fait un jeux aventeur!" (all verb conjugation and spelling errors are mine, but stay focussed on the pronouns).  French, classified as a romance language and descended directly from [vulgar] Latin speakers (compared to the germanic English), doesn't obey the Latin rules!  And English is much more influenced by French (spoken by the ruling classes for three centuries during the formative period of Middle English) than by Latin (known only to the elite clergy virtually until modern English had fully formed).  So my question is, shouldn't it be proper to say "Johny and me...." after all?!?

Well, as far as I know, the subject doesn't chance upon the addition of Johnny. At the start of a sentence, you'd use I, (e.g. "I made an adventure game") so in this case you would say "Johnny and I".

At the end of a sentence though, you would use me (i.e. "The game was made by me"), which becomes "The game was made by Johnny and me" (Note: many people incorrectly say "Johnny and I" at the end of a sentence, in accordance with the rule you stated above, although the rule only applies to the beginning of a sentence).

I hope that made sense.
Peace
Scarab

[Andail]

This is an age-old controversy. Traditionally, puritans have claimed that it's "Johnny and I" because, as you said, "me" is reserved for the object position he shot me.

I think most modern grammarians will accept that people use both forms (just as the entire society of grammarians tend to move towards a descriptive view on language instead of a prescriptive one.)

This issue affects other areas too: It has always been a pet peeve amongst puritans that people use the object form in comparisons "Johnny is bigger than me", and the language law enforcers have advocated the usage of "Johnny is bigger than I", although I think this controversy is slowly waning, as people find it completely silly to say things like "I'm bigger than she".

[Lufia]

"un jeu d'aventure"

In French, the rule goes something like "If you have to coordinate pronouns, no matter their function in the sentence, use the disjunctive form.", which to everybody but grammarians is equivalent to "Well, because." and doesn't have much to do with Latin grammar anymore. (That happens a lot in French. )

Elle, lui, toi et moi avons fait un jeu d'aventure. -> Her, him, you and me have made an adventure game.
Maybe it's correct in English, maybe it's not. And it's not correct in Spanish. So yeah...

[Intense Degree]

This issue affects other areas too: It has always been a pet peeve amongst puritans that people use the object form in comparisons "Johnny is bigger than me", and the language law enforcers have advocated the usage of "Johnny is bigger than I", although I think this controversy is slowly waning, as people find it completely silly to say things like "I'm bigger than she".

I think that a lot of people would get round that by saying "Johnny is bigger than I am" and "I'm bigger then she is" (which is probably what I would say) but I don't know if, gramatically speaking, that's really any better.

Also on the Latin/Germanic thing I think based on is the key here, but languages (particularly English) tend to do their own funny things for reasons best known to themselves. Rules are all very well and good, but look at the number of irregular plurals/verbs etc. we have.

[Calin Leafshade]

on 'me' vs 'I', I think its proper to use "Johnny and I" (or He and I) in circumstances where a personal pronoun would be used. i.e 'we' but you would use 'Johnny and me' (or Him and Me)  in places where an object pronoun would be used i.e "Us".

so its incorrect to say "He shot Johnny and I" but its correct to say "Johnny and I shot him"

[Stupot]

so its incorrect to say "He shot Johnny and I" but its correct to say "Johnny and I shot him"

For I I would agree with you there, and so would the pedants.

But as for Johnny and me, I personally use me in both case (regardless what the presrciptive view is).  Most people would agree "He shot Johnny and me" is correct.  But where I disagree with the standard view is with "Johnny and me shot him".  Most pedantic people would tell me off for saying that, but I don't care.  It rolls off my tounge more easily and doesn't structurally clash with any other part of the sentence.

The only reason I agree with avoiding I when you and Jonnhy are the object is because it feels like you haven't completed the sentence.

"He shot Johnny and I..."
And you what?  Phoned the police? Ran away? died laughing?
This is because I inherently belongs in the subject position, so when someone uses it at the end of a sentence your brain interprets it as such, and expects another verb at the very least.

[TerranRich]

Correct: The house is bigger than Johnny and I.

Correct: The house belongs to me.

Correct: Johnny and I live in the house.

[Calin Leafshade]

Correct: The house is bigger than Johnny and I.

I would disagree since in this case the pronoun used would be 'us'

[Andail]

Good point, Calin.

The pedants would prescribe "Johnny is bigger than I", but noone in their right mind would say "Johnny is bigger than we" instead of "Johnny is bigger than us". Or?