English 101 with Trihan sometimes!

[TerranRich]

Everything I've ever learned about English tells me that "didn't use to" is the correct way of saying it. Every source I can find online substantiates this.

[Stupot]

Ahh fair play.  After a bit of looking about I think I'll have to put my hands up and make a u-turn.  It seems that 'didn't use to' is accepted.  But it also seems we're not the first ones to discuss this and it is a source of much confusion. And that is because 'didn't use(d) to', with or without a 'd' is slightly anachronistic and just horrible to say and there are plenty more elgent ways to make the same point.

[TerranRich]

So let's agree to stick with "never used to". So ends the meeting of the Honorable English Language Proper Use Syndicate (HELP US).

[Vince Twelve]

I vote for renaming this thread "English 101 without Trihan"

[Trihan]

Gah! You people post too fast for me to keep up with! XD

I'm sorry I haven't actually answered anyone yet, but by the time I see the questions they've generally already been answered and if nothing else I've started a discussion so even without my input so far I'm glad to have opened the gates.

[Atelier]

I've always written lists like this...

         

• I need: Milk, flour, eggs, sugar, and rocks. (For a rock cake )

But recently I was told there should be no comma before the and. Ever. Is this right? And would it be grammatically correct to write it like this, without an and?

         

• I need: Milk, flour, eggs, sugar, rocks.
  
  Thanks. I like the thread title change by the way.

[Stupot]

I've always written lists like this...

         

• I need: Milk, flour, eggs, sugar, and rocks. (For a rock cake )

But recently I was told there should be no comma before the and. Ever. Is this right? And would it be grammatically correct to write it like this, without an and?

         

• I need: Milk, flour, eggs, sugar, rocks.
  
  Thanks. I like the thread title change by the way.
  

I think the use of the colon means that you can leave 'and' out.  You have decided to write your list horizontally, but if you were to write it veritacally it would look like this:

I need:
*milk
*flour
*eggs
*sugar
*rocks

(you wouldn't use 'and' in this list, so I suppose you wouldn't use it in the horizontal list either - although the vertical list also means you don't need commas or full-stops)

However, if you were to write the list without the colon, especially in a piece of written prose, then you should always use 'and'.

e. g. "I went to the shop and bought milk, flour, eggs, sugar and rocks."
(note there is no comma after 'sugar').[/list]

[Andail]

Comma and "and" only go together when followed by a clause which has a different grammatical function.

So it's like this:

I need milk, flour, eggs and sugar.
I need milk, flour, eggs and sugar, and then I need to visit the pharmacy.

[Snarky]

Actually, the final comma is optional, and depends on the house style. Both of these are correct:

"Milk, flour, eggs, sugar, and rocks"
"Milk, flour, eggs, sugar and rocks"

A comma in this position is called an "Oxford comma" (because the Oxford University Press style guide insists on it while the Cambridge University Press avoids it) or a serial comma.

Even if you pick one style, there may be times when it's best to make an exception in order to avoid ambiguity. (Although Wikipedia provides an amusing example of a sentence that can be misread however you punctuate it: "Highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector.")

[Andail]

Oh, interesting input there...

I would still recommend that when you write a simple list (without any possible ambiguities) just avoid the final comma. I think it disrupts the prosody, as it - in my eyes - presents the final item with some kind of special emphasis.

[TerranRich]

As with most "either way is right" deals in English, just go with whatever (1) causes the least confusion, and (2) sounds the best.

Even when using colons and semicolons, an "and" can still be used, especially with long sentences:

A beepobroxal can be derflegongled in many ways: by haefering the loobilom; through nefiterication of gergipeens, which are bumberiferously dextrible; and by laughing at the mentall impaired.

It's not the best example of semicolon usage, but I vaguely remember something I wrote a while ago that used this format.

[Mr Flibble]

A beepobroxal can be derflegongled in many ways: by haefering the loobilom; through nefiterication of gergipeens, which are bumberiferously dextrible; and by laughing at the mentall impaired.

To my eyes that last semi-colon needs to be a comma though it's hard to tell what the clauses are and what's part of a list and what isn't since it's all gibberish, but as we all know the semi-colon introduces a list (or acts as a conjuction) it shouldn't reappear in the list unless there's a second list happening inside the list (which may be what you were writing here, it's hard to tell).

[Trihan]

Actually, the colon indicates that a list is beginning, while each semicolon denotes the next item in said list, so TerranRich's sentence is grammatically correct.

[TerranRich]

If there are commas within each list item, semicolons are preferred, to tell the difference.

I need some items: a vacuum, a hair brush, and a toilet seat.

That's just a regular list, but if you needed to explain something about one of the items, you'd do this:

I need some items: a vacuum, which my sister stole; a hair brush, which I accidentally the whole thing; and a toilet seat, which I collect.

[Trihan]

While the underlying logic of what you said is true, that sentence is pretty horrible. XD though one reason for that is likely a typo.

A hair brush which you accidentally the whole thing?

Also, maybe it's just personal preference, but "and a toilet seat, which I collect" flows awkwardly to me. Technically speaking it sounds like you're saying that you only collect that one toilet seat. I'd much prefer "and a toilet since, because I collect them".

Of course, if you want to eliminate commas entirely, you could reword it as "I need some items: A vacuum which was stolen by my sister; a hair brush which I accidentally [whatever you meant to say]; and a toilet seat for my collection."

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LEVEL 1 GRAMMARTECH: SPECIAL LESSON
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Now here's one for free: the difference between "was" and "were". It's a subtle difference, but one that does exist and I'm now going to explain it to you.

In terms of past tense, you use "was" if the past event you are referring to is true or actually happened. You use "were" if it isn't true or didn't happen. For example:

"I was on my way to the shops when I stumbled and fell." In this case, you actually were on your way to the shops, so you use "was". "I were on my way to the shops" is obviously incorrect.

"I wish I were more popular on the MSPA forums!" I'm not popular on the MSPA forums, so I use were. "I wish I was more popular on the MSPA forums!" while technically acceptable, is grammatically incorrect simply because I'm referring to something that isn't true.

Really, anything that you -wish- were true, you should use "were" for. And now you know!

[Andail]

You don't really need to wish that it was true, it can be just any hypothetical situation.
"I wouldn't do that if I were you."

[Stupot]

In this case, you actually were on your way to the shops,

If what you're saying is true then surely you mean:

"In this case, you actually was on your way to the shops"

because it's a true statement.  But that sounds wrong to me.

Equally, you wouldn't say "you was late for the party", even if the subject was late.

Surely, it all depends on the pronoun... 'I/he/she was late' and 'you/they/we' were late.

Maybe the system you describe was used once upon a time, but equally nobody says 'thee, thine, thou' or 'thither, hither, whither' any more in real conversation.

[Trihan]

Yeah, it doesn't work for EVERY situation, obviously. It's just one of those general rules of English that gets subverted by everything else.

I'll add a corollary to it.

If you're talking about -yourself-, using first person pronouns, or he/she, then my was/were rule applies. Generally because in cases where you'd use "were" you're talking about hypothetical situations and not something based in reality. So obviously you're never going to start a sentence with "I were". Likewise, if using you, they or we, as you accurately pointed out, the next word would have to be were.

Of course this doesn't take into account dialect, since cockneys would absolutely say "you was late" or "you was on your way to the shops".

[TerranRich]

Trihan: You always use a comma before "which".

As for the "accidentally the whole thing", it was a joke: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-accidentally

[Stupot]

Trihan: You always use a comma before "which".

I don't know(,) which plonker told you that.  Perhaps he needs some new books with(,) which to learn English.