European constitution. Ya or Na?

[jetxl]

France voted "non". Today The Netherlands have to vote.
Update: The Netherlands also say "nee".

the cons

Shady and unclear law. Even experts are argueing about what they might mean.
People feel screwed about the â,¬uro.
Arguements inside political parties.
Is it good for the whales or bad for the whales. Is it good for economy or bad for the economy.
Nobody red it.
Heard nothing but bad things about it.
Sticking it to the man.

the pros

This is where the pros would be if I could think of one.
Because I don't like the French.
[/list]

Please give some arguements so I can fill the Pro and Con lists.

[Phemar]

I hold an extremely biased opinion of anything French, so I'll go the opposite of whichever way they go.

[Privateer Puddin']

Voting 'No' was one of the things France has done correctly!

[Mozesh]

Here in the Netherlands the latest survey says that will be about 46% yes and 54% no, it still can be a yes according to some optimists. But if the surveys are correct it would be a NEE!

[Nacho]

I'd go for "No" for one reason:
I've read it and it's full of rubbish, in the style of "We will love each others like brothers, and respect the human rights and bla bla bla..."

And... nothing else... nothing substantial. It does not say a world about the tax policy and many other things that really matter.

So, if that constitution goes more further, in 5 or 6 years we will have to vote again for a propper one.

*One thing... In Spain just 20 % of the people recognises they had read it. 20% voted no. Curious...

[Ishmael]

I've heard nothing but bad about it...

If the way of voting about it ever is taken here in Finland (...holy bazooka, I CAN VOTE now! :o) I'll be voting for No. I wish to live in Finland, not in the USE... They took our own currency already, that'll have to do.

[Anarcho]

It's wierd, a lot of the papers in the US about France's vote and how the Dutch may vote it down too, and provide analysis of the vote, but they don't really talk about WHY people would object to the constitution.  From what I gather here there are a lot of things lacking in it?

[Dowland]

The polls show that why the French did fear the Constitution might have had bad effects on France ... the main reason, the *real* reason is that they feel cheated by the government in place, and the extremists parties have helped them feel even more cheated.

In April 2002, Chirac was mistakenly elected. Everybody thought the socialist Jospin would make it to the second round ... and thus voted for anybody BUT Jospin. As an end result, the right-wing extremist Le Pen (who's been fucking around this time too) was in the second round with Chirac, and nobody wanted to have a right wing extremist as a president.

76% of the French were going to say “yes” a couple months ago, but actions taken by the government--such as making a national holiday, Pentecost, a work day; or problems with the National Education Ministry--are what annoyed the people. The Prime Minister's popularity vote is 26% ... and he was just kicked out.

So there. The Constitution really was at the wrong place, and at the wrong time (. They feel like today isn't as important an issue than the presidency ... and thus feel  like there's waggle room to say “Fuck off.”

Most French's reason to vote no was something close to “Because Chirac wants us to say yes.”

The reactionary “We'll do this because so and so did that,” I find so stupid. *sigh* And I find it here too?

[aussie]

*One thing... In Spain just 20 % of the people recognises they had read it. 20% voted no. Curious...

That's sneaky Farl!Ã, 

20% out of the TOTAL population recognise they've read it.
20% out of those who actually bothered to vote (only 6% of the ellectorate) actually said 'no'.

Spaniards passed the EU Constitution with an all-time low participation in a referendum (30%). Still, about 8 in 10 of those Spaniards who actually voted said 'yes'.

Politicians pushing for yes and no both claimed victory. The former argued that 80% of the vote was 'yes', while the latter said 'that's only because 70% of the people couldn't care less about it'.

However, the fact is Spaniards are quite sick of voting at the moment. Most of them have been to the polls three times in the last 18 months. After controversial regional ellections and pretty traumatic national ellections, this referendum was perceived as low-key by many.

Granted. The Constitution probably does not contribute much. But the fact is that the country has taken off in the last 20 years or so, and that is largely coincidental with Spain's adhesion to Europe (1986). Even if this is arguable, I think it partly explains why Spain passed the Constitution.

Still, a lot of people in Spain feel the process was rushed in order to be the first country to pass it. There has been controversy on this issue all over the papers these days.

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The French? As someone said, it looks like their 'no' was pretty much a punishment vote towards Chirac. Still, Europe is not possible without France, so eventually someone will have to come up with something to let them in.

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The Dutch and the British? We'll see what happens. The British might even save themselves the trouble.

Now that a pretty hefty 'no' stands in the way, I think more countries will feel free to say no (or even avoid the referendum altogether). Particularly those who feel that their voice is usually overheard.

[Pumaman]

I really do hope that the constitution is rejected and the EU can move back to just being a free trade area, which is what it was originally designed to be. Very few people want to become part of a USE and risk losing the varied qualities that make each European country so unique.

[Dowland]

This board has a a total member count of 2644 at the time of posting. Would these members be more unique if they had joined, say, ten separate boards such that no board exceeds 265 members?

The Constitution is far from creating USE, and *FAR* from erasing unicity of characters of the different nations. I think the Brits will always have to do EVERYTHING differently, the French will always mauger and mope and rebel against everything, the Dutch will always want to have less and less to do with outsiders, Italy will always be catholic, etc., etc.

Europe is set in its ways. Thinking a Constitution will upheave milleniums of inertia is wishful thinking. (This whole ordeal makes me fondly think of the old hippy couple who just *doesn't* want to officially wed, even though they've been together since the 60's.)

[voodoolake]

I'd vote against it, but since in my country it seems to be normal making such decisions without asking the people ... who cares!?

[Nacho]

Thanks for claryfying that Aussie, I can't remember all the figures, I think I was away or in exams or something... 

Another thing I hate of this Constitution. It says what not to do "Noone shall violate the human rights!" but... it does not says the punishements to those who uncomplish those stalements... Silly, isn't it? As Anarcho said, it is not bad, but it is totally full of real content.

[Dowland]

As the polls show in France, a majority of voters are the young French people ... those who didn't witness a world *without* Europe.


EDIT: I'm slightly annoyed to notice I keep doing the *emphasizing* thing ... it's more an obsessional compulsive IRC-derived habit, than an actual belief that it makes anything clearer.

[scotch]

If you want something to impose limits to curtail the EU from turning into a "United States of Europe" (which is a rather paranoid thought, I think, but anyway...) then this would be the constitution to vote for.  It clearly sets out what the EU is for and its limits at the start, essentially setting the status quo down in stone.  If it comes to a vote here in the UK it'll get rejected, because it's from the EU, and people here don't have to read it to believe that it's all part of the plot to take over (even sensible people like CJ).
I'd vote yes, but it would be a waste of my time.

[BorisZ]

I'd like to point few things,  little bit out of topic (but not too much):

A: Most European countries that accepted Euro as it's currency have their market prices doubled (for instance Germany has changed the pricecs from 1 DEM to 1 E- before change, DEM was about 1/2 of Euro).
B: Most of these countries haven't changed their pays value (Again in Germany- The one who had 1000 Dem Paycheck value, after change had 500 Euro.)

After reading these facts, basic math knowledge brings me to this conclusion: SOMEONE HAS MADE LOT'S OF MONEY!!

(My country is waiting in line for EU, but I am not impatient at all.)

[DoorKnobHandle]

for instance Germany has changed the pricecs from 1 DEM to 1 E- before change, DEM was about 1/2 of Euro. The one who had 1000 Dem Paycheck value, after change had 500 Euro.

Well, that is really not true, and only the most conservative, older people who always say that everything's been better in the 60ies say that here in Germany.

I am not saying that everything about Europe growing together is good, I just wanted to put things in the right light.

[BorisZ]

My friend works in Germany, that's the information I got from her. Tell me the right numbers.

[DoorKnobHandle]

Well, I don't have any numbers. It is true that several items (like groceries [milk, butter, bread] ) got more expensive with the euro, but it is not that suddenly we all have to pay double. I mean, nobody could finance that, or? Other things got actually cheaper.

Anyways, I am not into politics, but I know, that it's not like everything is now 2 times as expensive as in 1999 with the DM as currency.

[Dowland]

The euro did change prices, but by such a small margin that calling it "doubling" would be melodrama. Inflation factors in. World state factors in (now why is the gas for the car more expensive?). If you do get paid less, it has more to do with the fact that a lot of people are looking for jobs (therefore, you're expandable), than with the euro.

Prices might go up, but then curiously, the number of homes that have a mobile phones for every member, a computer with Internet, two cars, and two television is exponentially growing (not to mention, I can buy a --crappy-- livingroom DVD player for 99â,¬ or below).