Female teacher insults islam or something

Nacho · Sat 01/12/2007 11:20:07

It's difficult... I think my opinion is quite clear... I don' t think that Islam is screwed up, doomed or something, but has some evident problems that come from its roots. Correct me if I am wrong, but... What do you need to be an Imam? I've been told that the Imam is just the guy who conducts the Oration, you don' t need to pass an exam or something. You can arrange a garage, put some carpets, and autodeclare yourself the "local" Imam, correct? If the Imam is nuts, surelly not all his followers will go nuts, but one, two or three of them could. Many of the terrorist strikes done in Europe has been made by terrorists groups borned in an "unofficial" Mosque of those, whose Imam was nuts and recruited 3 o 4 for activists who were as nuts as him. At least that happened in Madrid, whose perpetrators founded the group after some meetings in the M-30' s Mosque (It' s the name of a road, Madrid-30 freeway). Same with London, no?

It's more difficult to become a Catholic priest (Secondary school passed, one year of Noviciate, three of Seminar, exams... More chances to put a "filter" (Even considereing some pedophilia cases... What can I say? Lamentable as well...)

The sollution? Maybe doing what we "happily" criticise of the Catholic Church. "Vaticanize" the Islam. As far as I know, each certain time some "Mullahs" make a meeting and decide things, but it' s far from being something "official". Rome is old fashioned, unplugged with the real society and unpopular, yes, but at least being so stiff is also a guarantee that the local jerk is not going to use God' s Word for free. Dunno about the Protestants, what reaches me of the american TV-preachers makes me think that your rules are a bit more lax, no? Does the Islam has a "Rome"?

Thank for the replies, and sorry if I am lame with the questions, I am amazed with the differences between cultures. ^_^

fred · Sat 01/12/2007 12:23:07

As far as I know, Islam has many flavors, and the problem isn't with the religion itself. Any religion, culture or tradition that has a long history contains reasons for conflict - so in my opinion the real challenge is in quelling, not primarily the angry people or whatever they justify their anger by, but the source of their fears. I can't understand the fundamentalist hatred, but I know that when I've been angry, it has usually been motivated by fear, sometimes in an attempt to mask it, even if only from myself.

In Sudan there are plenty of sources of fear. One part of the population has been systematically murdered, raped and driven from their homes for some time now, and another part is afraid of international intervention and prosecution for these crimes. Chad has stated that they will battle the international force being sent to secure the border and stop the janjaweed raids, so right now the situation is extremely dangerous, and nobody can feel very safe. Not the oppressed, not the government people, not the ordinary citizen. Perhaps people vent their anger at something basically harmless like a teddy bear, because it's the only safe way to vent their anger and frustration at all. And it's a way of asking for sympathy from the muslim world community in face of an international intervention.

We can just hope that most people are clever enough to see that this conflict isn't about religion, that it's a political maneuvre, a way of posing as the offended party in order to justify far worse crimes.

Nacho · Sat 01/12/2007 12:44:09

Ain't the "many flavours" of Islam a problem, itself? We have our deviations, but they never go too far from the three main branches, as far as I know. In some countries, almost every town or tribe has a different interpretation of Islam, I think. Difficult to "control", methinks.

Babar · Sat 01/12/2007 13:08:28

What three main interpretations? Are you thinking Catholic, Eastern orthodox and Protestant? Because even in the USA, there are many further subdivisions.

Islam doesn't so much have different sects (there is basically only Shi'a and Sunni), as much as different schools of thought(involving mostly minor things like whether you should pray while bleeding, or whether all pig derived products are banned, or only pig derived products that you eat, etc.). Even if there was a central authority, what would make sure that everyone follows them? You can't forcibly excommunicate someone from Islam. There was originally a Caliphate in Islam, but it was abolished long ago.

While there are many parties trying to get it reinstated (Osama Bin Laden being one of them, with himself as leader, of course), they'd have to get themselves approved by at least every muslim country. Even if they do that, the individual communities within that country may disregard them. You may have a massive Islamic meeting every few years with the Caliph elected (of course, then the Shi'as would be out

), but not all Islamic countries are that friendly with each other, some groups (or even entire countries) may boycott these. Also, which country would the Imam be based at? Saudi Arabia :o?

Besides, Imams really don't have any function except to lead the prayer. They do give a sermon on Fridays and religious holidays, and you might argue that that gives them a large amount of power, but that is it. Imams don't really need to 'declare' themselves, either. Out of any large group of muslims (while travelling, at a gathering or party) who decide that it is time to pray, any one can come ahead and lead the prayer as long as they are sufficiently knowledgeable of the words to say during the prayer.

fred · Sat 01/12/2007 13:34:32

People have all kinds of religions and beliefs, it only becomes problematic when there is some basically 'political' conflict, because religion is then taken hostage and used to legitimize all kinds of crimes.

Europe's history is basically one long chain of emperors trying to conquer Europe by siding with the pope, and the pope's power was to a large extent based on cold cash from sale of indulgences, and from the fact that he could appoint the priests in the Christian countries and thus establish a very strong and well-distributed intelligence and 'news' network and pose an inside threat to any secular ruler. So centralizing a religion doesn't necessarily make it less inclined to involve itself in politics, in fact it could make it a much stronger player, for better or worse.

I think most religious conflicts ease out once the underlying political conflict is solved. I don't believe religion can ever really be controlled, but providing a basic level of justice in society would probably be the best way of keeping it moderate. Give people some peace and safety, so they can educate themselves. Slowly, the 'need' for extreme religion and other extreme justifications will hopefully fade.

Nacho · Sat 01/12/2007 13:38:42

Quote from: Babar on Sat 01/12/2007 13:08:28
What three main interpretations? Are you thinking Catholic, Eastern orthodox and Protestant? Because even in the USA, there are many further subdivisions.

I mentioned it before ^_^ USA is a part... Any TV preacher is a sub-division as well!

Radiant · Sat 01/12/2007 14:19:03

Quote from: Nacho on Sat 01/12/2007 12:44:09
Ain't the "many flavours" of Islam a problem, itself? We have our deviations, but they never go too far from the three main branches, as far as I know.

What about mormons, for instance?

And what about those religions that have only one flavour, but are nevertheless considered problematic by some - like the scientologists, or the raelians? (and that's just a few that I've heard of - Wikipedia lists hundreds of "new" religious movements)

Nacho · Sat 01/12/2007 14:50:04

As said, I was basically talking about Roman Apostolical Cotholicism... Anyway... Some of this "Christian" sub-branches rules a whole country and demmands for physical punishments, such as lapidations or lashings? I think... not.

Whereas Sharia does.

Saying that "our" problems are nowadays the same as "theirs" is politically correct, and it' s ok... But, sadly, it' s a lie.

fred · Sat 01/12/2007 16:28:20

There are many branches of Christianity too, and some of them are fairly extreme, some of them even use computer games to prepare us for the fight against the Antichrist! http://www.eternalforces.com/

But Christian countries are generally rich and have less desperate people in need of desperate supernatural explanations. I think that for example corruption and organized crime are far greater threats than any religious movement in the west. Then again, I'm not into conspiracy theories.

I agree that our problems aren't the same as theirs - I'll chose secular government over sharia or mob rules any day.

InCreator · Sat 01/12/2007 19:16:51

QuoteI find this disturbing because basically, doing this will offend innocent Muslims who happen to be reading this thread.

Still!... WTF is that "offended" thing?!
Are they made of glass? Can our discussion break their faith? Or are they hurt because everybody doesn't love Allah?
Or because not everyone admires their beliefs? This is SO selfish! Oh, you don't like the things I like, now I hate you.

I'm quite sick of this 'offended' issue in every topic. If someone says that my drawings are bad, well, I try to get better at it. If the criticism has no other reason than mean act, I ignore it. Preachers like this is probably the most dangerous thing for the teacher: justifying the lashes by abstract "offended" word.
But offended? I can't even imagine this. Should I cry myself to sleep because someone dropped a bad word at me?

Jeesh.

Thinking about that teacher again, a public excuse to muslims is the most she should do to get out of this. Anything more is way too harsh and ignites public hate.

Pumaman · Sat 01/12/2007 19:29:53

Quote from: InCreator on Sat 01/12/2007 19:16:51
Still!... WTF is that "offended" thing?!
Are they made of glass? Can our discussion break their faith? Or are they hurt because everybody doesn't love Allah?
Or because not everyone admires their beliefs? This is SO selfish! Oh, you don't like the things I like, now I hate you.

I presume you're not a religious person, because if you were you'd be more likely to understand what it means when somebody insults or makes fun of the very thing that you've built your life around.

Dualnames · Sat 01/12/2007 19:33:43

Yes, but at this situation the teacher was ignorant that this would cause what caused.
So they should let her know how the situation is like so that she doesn't misbehaves.

InCreator · Sat 01/12/2007 19:43:08

QuoteI presume you're not a religious person, because if you were you'd be more likely to understand what it means when somebody insults or makes fun of the very thing that you've built your life around.

I actually don't know. Maybe it's just my thick skin of scandinavians. As I said, I don't understand it a bit and my logic doesn't explain this. If you're believing in something so much that you're "building your life around it", our modern, scientific and free-thinking world is battling you every day. I mean, REALITY. In a situation like this, a single group of individuals saying simple words should be least of your concern, and nowhere near serious offense.

But about my own religion, I think that I want to believe. Something. Great. Up. There.
Maybe a bit I even do. I believe that Christ existed and maybe other prophets too, like Allah.

But angry always-punishing bearded jew on a cloud top, sorry, no.

Radiant · Sat 01/12/2007 19:54:57

Quote from: InCreator on Sat 01/12/2007 19:43:08
If you're believing in something so much that you're "building your life around it", our modern, scientific and free-thinking world is battling you every day. I mean, REALITY.

You'd be surprised at how accurate the term "battling" is in this context.

But it's hardly just muslims. Look up the war in Kansas Education for a different example, which also had its share of court battles.

Candall · Sat 01/12/2007 21:42:02

Quote from: RickJ on Fri 30/11/2007 23:56:25
Quote
Don't you think that when two people from different religions plan marriage that they ought to agree under which religious tradition they will raise their children before they get married?

It all seems reasonable on paper, but being in that situation sucks. Just look at the very quote that you wrote: "...when two people plan marriage..." This particular bit of dogma really makes if feel like "A couple billion people vs. one." I realize that they have the right to impose that condition since their religion is officiating, but it doesn't mean that I have to like it.

I'm a non-Catholic. My wife is Catholic. If my mother should wish to take her grandchild to her own church one Sunday, is my wife obligated to protest? Is she obligated to explain to our child what's "wrong" about our doctrines beforehand?

auriond · Sun 02/12/2007 00:30:10

Quote from: InCreator on Sat 01/12/2007 19:16:51Still!... WTF is that "offended" thing?!
Are they made of glass? Can our discussion break their faith? Or are they hurt because everybody doesn't love Allah?
Or because not everyone admires their beliefs? This is SO selfish! Oh, you don't like the things I like, now I hate you.

Well, the feeling is very much like when someone insults your mother (assuming, of course, that you love your mother). You know they don't mean it, that they're just saying it to irritate you, but for that brief moment after they say it you're angry anyway.

And I'm not talking about rational discussion; I'm sure many religious people are more than willing to have a calm, rational talk about their faith. I just get worried when people say things like "Ha! So they get offended by naming pets and things after their precious Prophet? Well I'll name my pig Mohammed! Whatcha gonna do about that ya pig-hating fanatics?" Not that anyone in this form has said that, but for a while there it was definitely heading in this direction.

A group of people saying simple words has always been the basis of a lot of offense: sexism, racism, class oppression, homophobia... If the group being discussed doesn't have the right to say "Hey, be careful, you're saying stuff that might become offensive", then who does?

InCreator · Sun 02/12/2007 01:11:06

Huh, well.

If someone can deny reality as we know it, and believe in something (s)he cannot see, hear or prove, it takes a special kind of person I guess. And mentality. I cannot imagine comparing insulting biological mother to a church I attend, but from atheist viewpoint it should make some sense: If you take a fairy tale seriously enough to live by it, why not have so strong feelings about arguments against it. This much I understand, at least I think I do.

To not offend anyone, I'll try to repeat text above in my simple, immature, atheistic way. Religious people know how to fight temptation to hightlight it, so don't look...

Spoiler

If you're f**ked up enought to believe, you're probably f**ked up enough to burst in tears if someone takes a step against you religion.

[close]

That's how I see it now.

I deny religion because much things in its structure don't make sense to me. Like preachers/priests/pope/etc. How can a sinful, unworthy human being decide that he has right to be an ambassador of the almighty? To speak in Lord's name, to rise above the masses and act as God's secretary? To actually imagine that creator of world needs HIM to spread his word, orders or love? That's a blasphemy!

These lashes for teacher and islamic-countries' laws are somewhat similar. People shouldn't decide that they need to protect someone or something that made them and owns them and their life from soul to cells. It's like saying that God is weak and can't handle a single miserable teacher? And what, Prophet will be happy about that woman getting some beating from his followers? Is that how they think?

I don't judge any religion, but I do judge people.
Using God as a shield and excuse from humanly evil and/or stupidity is wrong.
That's what I think.

I could go on like this, but this is way offtopic already.

Nightfable · Sun 02/12/2007 02:56:54

There's a fine line, it seems, between being civilized and being barbaric.

Nacho · Sun 02/12/2007 08:40:53

Question 2: If a magazine in Nigeria publish 5 silly cartoons of Jesus... Would we go and burn Embassies of countries with Muslim majoritary population?

OneDollar · Sun 02/12/2007 10:37:43

Quote from: InCreator on Sun 02/12/2007 01:11:06
I deny religion because much things in its structure don't make sense to me. Like preachers/priests/pope/etc. How can a sinful, unworthy human being decide that he has right to be an ambassador of the almighty? To speak in Lord's name, to rise above the masses and act as God's secretary? To actually imagine that creator of world needs HIM to spread his word, orders or love? That's a blasphemy!

It's probably not true for everyone in the church, but all of the church leaders that I know are in the job because they feel called to it. They don't just sit down and decide one day, "I know, I think I'll be a vicar. I always wanted a dog-collar". In the churches I've been to - certainly the ones that are more alive - the focus is very much on listening to God, and even when the vicar gives out a message for the church that they feel has come from God everyone is encouraged to think about it, pray about it and weigh it against what they know of the bible to decide if it is from God and they should follow it or not. The church leaders don't choose the job, God chooses it for them, and generally speaking they are fairly 'in touch' with God and wouldn't last long if the job wasn't right for them.

As for why God decided to work through humans, well that's a bit harder to suggest explanations for. He certainly doesn't need us. Maybe its because He loves us and wants to spend time with us, and wants to let us do something important. My brother and I built a sort of den area in the top of our garage with our dad, even though he could have made all the decisions and done all the building work himself, and probably to a higher standard. Yet he let us help as a bonding exercise, and so that we would grow in maturity and knowledge and skills. Maybe that explains it a little. Sinful and unworthy we may be, but God didn't make us just to run around on the Earth randomly like any other animal. He loves us and wants us to be a part of what He's doing. That at least is as far as I understand it.

I think I'll go burst into tears now

Anyway, that's all a bit off topic... but then again so is the situation in Sudan