This is so brilliant... I just had to share it!
Kogan institutes an IE7 tax (http://www.kogan.com/au/blog/new-internet-explorer-7-tax/?__utmx=-&__utmz=224218820.1339644938.1.1.utmcsr%3D%28direct%29%7Cutmccn%3D%28direct%29%7Cutmcmd%3D%28none%29&__utmv=-&__utmk=14511156&__utma=224218820.940789488.1339644938.1339644938.1339644938.1&__utmb=224218820.1.10.1339644938&__utmc=224218820)
It shouldn't be just for IE7. It should be for the entirety of Internet Suxplorer.
Now if only somebody with a bit more clout would follow suit!!
Wow, excellent idea.
Actually, some of our customers in the past year were still stuck on IE6. Imagine!
Firefox for the Win!! I have always hated Internet Explorer with a passion and refuse to use it. I'd rather have jumper cables attached to my nipples instead. :=
Quote from: Domino on Thu 14/06/2012 21:38:17
I'd rather have jumper cables attached to my nipples instead. :=
What, AGAIN?! That really didn't end so well for you last time. 8-0
That's hilarious. What a good laugh that is, Darth XD
I was an Opera fanboy from 2001 (...or so. Someone on here raved about it being the best) until the year before last when I finally installed Google Chrome. The main reason being was that Opera decided to start crashing every fucking 5 minutes for no apparent reason. It went from no problems what-so-ever to pissing me off on a daily basis.
I'm just happy somebody finally did something so bold. Internet Explorer is retarding the growth of web development (with its inability to follow W3C standards) because it still enjoys a HUGE chunk of the market (though this is ONLY because it comes with the computers people are buying and they don't know to upgrade).
My problem is the same as anybody in web-development. I was forced to spend HOURS "making it work in IE" when it works perfectly in real browsers first time around. So the logic of this is perfect. "You IE people are costing me money so you're going to pay me back for having to make it work in your inferior web-browsing choice!" I find that brilliant beyond words. Don't make the smart people (who use real browsers) suffer the cost of development that IE costs. Make the morons using IE pay for it. If every site did this we could completely abolish IE. Make IE no longer "free" to use. It's just brilliant.
I have been listening to developers for over a decade saying, "They're supposed to be fixing it with the next version..." I stopped saying that after IE7. Microsoft isn't going to fix their piece of shit. They are doing it intentionally because they think they know better and that it should be their way. It just needs to die. All sites I'm developing on my own do not support IE. They "work" in IE but if they don't look good or function exactly the same I don't care. I put a note on there that tells the morons "You're using Internet Explorer which this site doesn't support." and a small explanation with links to the real browsers.
Cool, thats a ballsy move. Whatever sales are lost from a small handful of annoyed customers will be made up for in all the IT guys who flock to that site.
Great idea, I swap between chrome and firefox.
QuoteI put a note on there that tells the morons "You're using Internet Explorer which this site doesn't support." and a small explanation with links to the real browsers.
Good point, is there a simple-ish html/java/css etc way to make that pop up and warn for IE users? I can't find much on Google, not sure what to search for exactly. My site is all messed up in IE though so it'd be useful.
It's relatively simple in JavaScript (http://www.w3schools.com/js/js_browser.asp).
Or if your site is using PHP and you hate JavaScript, check out $_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'] (http://us3.php.net/manual/en/reserved.variables.server.php) and/or get_browser (http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.get-browser.php).
P.S. Learn how to Google, dang. :D
The "tax message" is ballsy and hilarious. I think this is a very good idea- though I admit that I am still using IE (and Chrome, in tandem). Don't shoot me!
Quote from: Snake on Fri 15/06/2012 01:09:29
The main reason being was that Opera decided to start crashing every fucking 5 minutes for no apparent reason. It went from no problems what-so-ever to pissing me off on a daily basis.
I have same issue on work machine with Firefox. I'm quite sure it's ATI card problem (and maybe flash player).
Chrome works perfectly.
At home, FF works like wonder (Nvidia card) aside rare closed-but-staying-resident-in-memory issue that has been in Firefox since version 3 or so.
I like both, but I have no love for Safari: It's weird and hard-to-use piece of trash. I wish I could use Chrome or FF on my iPad.
Sooo... When's a tax coming in to take money for using older versions of Firefox, Chrome, Netscape Navigator etc?
Oh, oh, maybe we should start adding a similiar tax to people who play online games with slow internet connections for always lagging up the games for everybody! And for people playing games on old CRT monitors, as we need to ensure the games look good on those as well as on the more modern LCD / TFT / LED panel monitors! And maybe we should tax people who have computers over 3 years old, as software manufacturers in general need to take into account older and slower computers, and thus most of them cannot and will not make the most of modern technology!
I don't think that's a good comparison, WHAM. You're trying to merge two completely different markets.
Game developers optimize their products for older machines because the lower system requirements are, the more people will buy their games. If they didn't optimize the game, the customers would have to purchase new machines to run it. There's no other choice but to optimize the graphics.
People who use outdated browsers can just download and install a new one for free. And because some of them won't for who knows what reason, the cost of making any web application is much higher since every project leader will want it compatible with all browsers, including those the use of which does not make sense at all.
Love it.
I made a site for a private practice recently and even made sure it would work just fine in IE 8. When they looked at it, it was broken: they still use IE 6!
Quote from: Khris on Fri 15/06/2012 10:42:39
Love it.
I made a site for a private practice recently and even made sure it would work just fine in IE 8. When they looked at it, it was broken: they still use IE 6!
Lawlz. Thats funny.
I really hope this starts some sort of revolution. It's been a long time coming.
@InCreator
I never gave fire fox a real chance... really not too sure why. I've used it in Linux but just for visiting here or installing chrome. I'd like to give Netscape a try only because the look and name has some nostalgic value.
@WHAM
I think you're going a little overboard there ;)
I almost see your point in saying where this could have been handled differently, but it's also a great way to show those people who don't know much about computers, let
alone their BROWSER being the reason some web pages don't look right, that there are other options out there than the default internet explorer. They are told of the time it takes to make it work and gives them an option for modern browsers.
Quote from: m0ds on Fri 15/06/2012 04:20:35Good point, is there a simple-ish html/java/css etc way to make that pop up and warn for IE users? I can't find much on Google, not sure what to search for exactly. My site is all messed up in IE though so it'd be useful.
Yeah mine is a combination of Coldfusion/Javascript that accomplishes this. However I own the domain: www . internetsuxplorer . com and (which I'm developing now) that will offer people a small javascript snippet they can put on their site which will detect their visitor's USER_AGENT and, if IE, give them the message/note/popup (customizable). I really hope this takes off 'cause it's time for IE to die! It's been slowly and painfully losing ground (which is good) but now it just needs to die.
@WHAM - I see what you're trying to say but I just don't see it as "connected" to the IE issue. I (until recently) was using a 5 year old computer that would not play any modern games (I don't really play games anyway so there just wasn't a need to upgrade for me; it did what I needed it to do). So those games weren't developed to work on my machine at all. Modern game developers (given the open architecture of the PC market) have to account for a RIDICULOUS number of variations to ensure their games work but they don't worry about 5-10 year old computers. The web should be the same way in regards to IE.
@Khris - that's even worse!! IE6?? Seriously? There is simply NO [acceptable] reason for ANYbody (company or personal) to still be using IE6. That's just beyond stupid.
@Snake/Increator - I was a DIEHARD Firefoxer for years. Until Chrome hit the scene. Chrome is the best browser available. Lightest weight, most standards compliant, and fastest. Firefox is still MILES ahead of IE but it's become a fat cow (memory hog) and over-bloated with features nobody uses or wants. There are still some things Firefox does better than chrome (like their CSS3 color ramps/gradiations) but when using transitions Chrome is still much smoother so I can forgive the slightly less capable gradiations for smoother animations.
From the page's comments, and from WHAM comments, I can see that people who are hostile to that measure don't get the point :
- It's not about blaming people for using IE7 (it's not against customers), it's about the huge amount of time and money spent in making stuff compatible with IE7 (the issue rests on industry's side). That time and money are wasted for no reason, as: 1) Users could just upgrade to IE8 or use other browsers, 2) There is no good reason for IE7 to sabotage most standards except for the lack of interest of MS into complying.
- No need to use cutting-edge tech to experience compatibility issues on IE7. It ignores even some of the most basic W3 recommendations.
So, rather than a punishment, this tax is an incentive for people to just stop using a faulty product, that causes more issues that it offers services.
PS: Being the statist that I am, I'd rather have the government make companies pay for their choice of imposing obsolete technologies to the rest of the industry. Just like there are standards on cars driving on the streets (they have to be homologated first), there should be the same on Web Browsers: No standard compliance = no import authorization -- or higher taxes for those who use them.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/06/2012 14:41:10
Quote from: m0ds on Fri 15/06/2012 04:20:35Good point, is there a simple-ish html/java/css etc way to make that pop up and warn for IE users? I can't find much on Google, not sure what to search for exactly. My site is all messed up in IE though so it'd be useful.
Yeah mine is a combination of Coldfusion/Javascript that accomplishes this. However I own the domain: www . internetsuxplorer . com and (which I'm developing now) that will offer people a small javascript snippet they can put on their site which will detect their visitor's USER_AGENT and, if IE, give them the message/note/popup (customizable). I really hope this takes off 'cause it's time for IE to die! It's been slowly and painfully losing ground (which is good) but now it just needs to die.
@WHAM - I see what you're trying to say but I just don't see it as "connected" to the IE issue. I (until recently) was using a 5 year old computer that would not play any modern games (I don't really play games anyway so there just wasn't a need to upgrade for me; it did what I needed it to do). So those games weren't developed to work on my machine at all. Modern game developers (given the open architecture of the PC market) have to account for a RIDICULOUS number of variations to ensure their games work but they don't worry about 5-10 year old computers. The web should be the same way in regards to IE.
@Khris - that's even worse!! IE6?? Seriously? There is simply NO [acceptable] reason for ANYbody (company or personal) to still be using IE6. That's just beyond stupid.
@Snake/Increator - I was a DIEHARD Firefoxer for years. Until Chrome hit the scene. Chrome is the best browser available. Lightest weight, most standards compliant, and fastest. Firefox is still MILES ahead of IE but it's become a fat cow (memory hog) and over-bloated with features nobody uses or wants. There are still some things Firefox does better than chrome (like their CSS3 color ramps/gradiations) but when using transitions Chrome is still much smoother so I can forgive the slightly less capable gradiations for smoother animations.
Yeah I loved firefox untill chrome hit, Then I slowly used it more and more.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/06/2012 14:41:10@Khris - that's even worse!! IE6?? Seriously? There is simply NO [acceptable] reason for ANYbody (company or personal) to still be using IE6. That's just beyond stupid.
At my employer,
most of the computers are using IE6. Most of the representatives using them don't care because the firewall blocks most anything that isn't directly related to the company's sites and tools (which for the most part are generally IE6-compatible). I say "generally", but there's still aspects that don't work at all, like the company's "Careers" site.
I guess that I should consider myself "lucky" that they have an integrated "Software Delivery System" that basically is just a list of LAN-based installers for company-approved programs, including IE7. The best part about it is that it takes about 30-45 minutes to run an installer, that if we could just download and run the installer directly would take about 10-15 minutes. Every time I am moved to a new computer, I take the time to install IE7 before I do anything else (this persists for other users later as well).
Of course, the people I work with are also so intelligent they don't understand the difference between bookmarking ("Favoriting") the forwarding URL (redirects to 1 of 6 servers based on volume) and bookmarking one of the servers statically. "You can't add that to your Favorites, it makes it run slow." :-X
The silliest thing about IE is that I can't upgrade to the latest version without getting the latest version of Windows, too.
And afaik, you can't upgrade to IE10 under Win7.
You know, as if anybody would upgrade their Windows version just to get the latest IE... (roll)
But, in defense of the people who still use old versions of IE: most of them have absolutely no idea about updates, browser compatibility or anything like that. The practice I mentioned uses really old computers with two of them still running Win2000. And the company they contracted to do their IT service is so expensive you can't really blame them, they charge around â,¬1000 just for setting up one(!) office system.
Quote from: WHAM on Fri 15/06/2012 10:02:52
Sooo... When's a tax coming in to take money for using older versions of Firefox, Chrome, Netscape Navigator etc?
Couldn't agree with this more.
If you're gonna punish those who use an old version of IE, then you should also punish those who use an old version of firefox, chrome etc.
A lot of us actually PREFER IE to the alternatives.
WHY? 8-0
A lot of us actually PREFER IE to the alternatives.
Doubtful and there is no logical reason behind it.
A version of Firefox from years ago is still better then the newest internet explorer.
Though I'd vote chrome nowadays as the best browser.
Quote from: Frito Master on Fri 15/06/2012 17:03:17
A lot of us actually PREFER IE to the alternatives.
Doubtful and there is no logical reason behind it.
A version of Firefox from years ago is still better then the newest internet explorer.
As soon as you try to dabble in css and html code, you quickly come to see just how crappy IE is.
^
I figured just opening it was enough haha.
I was fixing a computer for a old lady once awhile back she had so many toolbars that seriously at least 40% of the browser window was nothing but search tools and news updates.
Quote from: Frodo on Fri 15/06/2012 16:41:39
If you're gonna punish those who use an old version of IE, then you should also punish those who use an old version of firefox, chrome etc.
The point is that IE is notorious for not complying with internet standards, which Firefox and Chrome have no problem with. It is really true that webdesigners must spend an extraordinary amount of time on having their site work in older IE versions, when it immediately works fine in all other major browsers. It's not about punishment, it's just a statement of fact that supporting older IEs is expensive.
Yeah, it's like how some stores charge you a little extra if you want to pay by credit card: it costs THEM money, so they pass the cost on to the consumer.
Quote from: Frodo on Fri 15/06/2012 16:41:39If you're gonna punish those who use an old version of IE, then you should also punish those who use an old version of firefox, chrome etc.
Old versions of real browsers (Chrome/Firefox/Safari) are still standards compliant and new stuff (like CSS3) will "fail gracefully" and users of those old[er] versions of real browsers won't even notice that something isn't as cool as it could be. Take that same site and put it
any version of IE and it will look like it was designed by 2 week old partially-blind one-legged gerbil.
Quote from: Frodo on Fri 15/06/2012 16:41:39A lot of us actually PREFER IE to the alternatives.
This really BEGS the question; have you
actually tried a real browser? I do not know how ANYbody that does more than check email (even just those) could actually
prefer IE. You're missing out on a lot the web has to offer. A lot. But as I always say, "to each their own".
Beyond simply not being standards compliant, IE is often not compliant with itself from one version to the next. So supporting, say, the current and two previous versions, as well as supporting the standards compliant browsers, basically involves designing and building the page 4 different times.
Even if you're accustomed to using it, there's very little, even in ways of user interface, that IE does that can't be/aren't easily replicated in other browsers.
Call me a moron if you are happy to do so (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/12962/grmbl.gif)
â€" I am using IE (even if it is IE9) â€"
... and I like it!
I used to like IE as well... until years ago when actually felt like moving on and trying something else.
I love talking to computer illiterate people and asking what browser they use.
Them: "Oh I use Google"
Me: "So you're using Chrome?"
Them: "No, I use Google. Google is my internet"
That's when I realize they merely have Google set as their home page and have no idea what a browser is and likely using the Google search to punch in URLs.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 15/06/2012 21:40:29
This really BEGS the question; have you actually tried a real browser? I do not know how ANYbody that does more than check email (even just those) could actually prefer IE. You're missing out on a lot the web has to offer. A lot. But as I always say, "to each their own".
If by 'real browser', you just mean one that YOU like (you've made it painfully clear you don't like IE), then yes, I have. I've tried firefox and chrome at various times, and didn't like them. They are cumbersome and awkward to use.
I don't get all this bashing people just because they like IE. Get over it.
I've dabbled in web design a little so I *know* you have to jump through hoops to make your sites look pretty in IE aswell as the other browswers, but for actually using the internet I don't see what difference it makes what browser you use so long as you are comfortable with it. I favoured Firefox on Windows then went Mac and used Safari until it started grinding to a halt. Now I use Chrome almost constantly and i'm very happy with it, but I don't see any reason to start flaming anyone for using IE.
At the end of the day, all software has its good and bad points, and people learn and problem-solve differently, so naturally they will find different software to their liking. Personally, despite all the rave reviews of it, I still don't 'get' the Gimp. It just isn't the right fit for me (possibly that is just the Mac version though which doesn't feel like a native app). I don't see that it matters what developers think is the superior browser: Regardless of the technical whizzbangs under the hood, the only thing that matters is that people can actually use the thing and enjoy doing so.
I do agree that users should be encouraged to upgrade if necessary, without rapping them across the knuckles for using a browser the developer doesn't like. It would be impractical for companies to support older software indefinitely. How effective this gimmick will be is doubtful though.
Quote from: Frodo on Fri 15/06/2012 22:54:07I've tried firefox and chrome at various times, and didn't like them. They are cumbersome and awkward to use.
Well that's just plainly not true. All those explorers have basically the same user interface with just a tad different interfaces for more advanced functions.
I've just recently done a fresh install of Windows, and I'll admit...before I even got the Ethernet driver installed, I had already gone in and uninstalled IE8 (that is, I "turned it off"...later I'll worry about setting myself as the "TrustedOwner" of the folders and actually deleting the files :)).
I don't think someone's ignorant just because they use IE, I just think that there are better alternatives (opinion). I also understand that from the perspective of a web developer, IE is perhaps the worst case scenario.
For these reasons, I think an IE tax isn't unwarranted. :D
Quote from: Frodo on Fri 15/06/2012 22:54:07If by 'real browser', you just mean one that YOU like (you've made it painfully clear you don't like IE), then yes, I have. I've tried firefox and chrome at various times, and didn't like them. They are cumbersome and awkward to use.
No. By "real" browser I mean a REAL browser that isn't a worthless, useless, insecure piece of shit like Internet Suxplorer. IE is not a real browser. It doesn't qualify.
Chrome/firefox are "cumbersome and awkward"? You work for Microsoft don't you? :D
Quote from: straydogstrut on Sat 16/06/2012 00:31:41
I don't get all this bashing people just because they like IE. Get over it.
I've dabbled in web design a little so I *know* you have to jump through hoops to make your sites look pretty in IE aswell as the other browswers, but for actually using the internet I don't see what difference it makes what browser you use so long as you are comfortable with it.
But you said it yourself. You have to jump through hoops to get it to look right. Some of them are pretty tiresome and insane hoops. Hence the tax (or to be more accurate, the joke...I don't think anyone would actually pay the tax). Since most other browsers are objectively :P better than IE, they figured "Why should we have to go through that hassle for what is probably someone too lazy to update/change their browser?"
Also, I don't think you'll find a lot of people who disagree that GIMP is a horrible horrible horrible piece of software as far as the UI is concerned. :P
I've also never gotten the disdain for IE. I never liked Firefox, and still don't - I used it for a while when I was having issues with IE in a new build and, really, Firefox crashed for me a lot and was constantly failing to complete downloads for me. It was also failing to display/load webpages for me on a pretty regular basis. For something that was meant to be far superior I was very, very disappointed.
I use Chrome now, though. The first browser to convince me that it legitimately IS superior to IE. I was still disappointed when I found it caches pages in a different way so I can't recover pages after they're deleted or explore anything in an offline mode, but those aren't functions I've ever used often.
QuoteI was a DIEHARD Firefoxer for years. Until Chrome hit the scene. Chrome is the best browser available. Lightest weight, most standards compliant, and fastest. Firefox is still MILES ahead of IE but it's become a fat cow (memory hog) and over-bloated with features nobody uses or wants. There are still some things Firefox does better than chrome (like their CSS3 color ramps/gradiations) but when using transitions Chrome is still much smoother so I can forgive the slightly less capable gradiations for smoother animations.
This is something I noticed when Peder and I were building my website. The custom fonts and everything would show up in Chrome right away but we had to do some fiddling to get it into Firefox at the time and especially IE, and my site seems to load the CSS and highslide code about 2x faster as well. Oh well, I'm still using firefox for some reason...probably because Google's little more than an NSA front company ;(.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/217550/google_comes_under_fire_for_secret_relationship_with_nsa.html
http://worldundercontrol.com/2012/05/14/nsa-and-google-relationship-to-remain-secret/
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/07/exclusive-google-cia
This is why I use startpage. Also, Mozilla was one of the few internet companies to come out against CISPA while loads of others, like Google, were strangely silent.
Quote from: Khris on Fri 15/06/2012 10:42:39
Love it.
I made a site for a private practice recently and even made sure it would work just fine in IE 8. When they looked at it, it was broken: they still use IE 6!
I used to build websites many years ago and quite often the phone would ring with "My images look shit!" or something like that. You later find out their computer was made at the time of the great flood (laugh)
I now use Google Chrome to browse. It uses Sandbox technology and so far has been great. Apart from testing the site in various browsers you can't determine how it will look on other computer systems, especially if they are very old indeed.
I never use IE.... It's to hackable..