Flaming/trolling: good thing or bad?

[Meowster]

Are all these threads about religion and racism and so on and so forth... are they REALLY a bad thing? They degenerate into name-calling and abuse every single time. But is  this bad? It's exactly what happens in real life, right? You start a conversation with a group of 40 people about religion, and you're all going to have a different opinion, and you're going to start annoying each other and by then you've got a fully fledged argument on your hands. Massive arguments about things like religion aren't restricted to this forum.

So is it actually a bad thing that it happens? SkyFire1 for instance, made an extremely racist remark, and claims he's not racist and did not mean for it to be racist. All that happened was that he got flamed a bit on an internet forum. As a result, he won't get his teeth kicked in when he says that to someone in real life.

On the upside, people like ManicMatt... a good, friendly person... really overreacted to the use of the word "paki", which nobody else found as offensive as him. This resulted in borderline flaming of Matt for being oversensitive. Clearly he didn't mean to offend anyone... quite the opposite. But he overreacted and people have challenged his opinion on the matter and, probably he won't overreact like that if people are having that discussion in real life. Unless they ARE actually being racist in which case... go ahead and sock 'em, Matt .


Everybody always says that its terrible the way those threads degenerate... I think it has to be expected in a forum with such a diverse userbase. And I don't think it's such a terrible thing really... it's an angry, heated debate but, unlike real life, nobody is at risk of getting hurt... only banned (Phfshhyeh right).

I personally find these arguments quite enthralling, to see so many very very DIFFERENT opinions and DIFFERENT reactions, and I learn a lot about people from them.

Discuss, and then degenerate into madness and chaos and threats and name-calling so that my job is done...

[evenwolf]

First!




..... actually, that "first" comment that you see everywhere on the internet (like aintitcool.com) is exactly what I love about AGS.Ã, Ã,  Ã, We don't do that dumb stuff.Ã,  No one ever says that.Ã,  Ã, For the most part everybody is mature enough to speak with common decency and debate issues like racism.Ã, Ã, 

Here's my perspective:Ã,  Ã,  Ã, So many AGS users seem very similar because people speak in technical or generic terms,Ã,  or sometimes I group names that begin with the same letter together.Ã,  But its when I learn of opinions that I actually start to carve an idea of his/her personality.

Take DG.Ã,  Ã, He's always on the edge and gets under people's skin (usually individuals at a time)Ã,  and that's what I associate with "DGMacPhee".Ã,  He never takes a backseat and always shoves opinions and facts to the forefront of his argument.Ã,  Ã, Sure I know his face, from 2D photographs I've seen.Ã,  Ã, But his personality lies in his opinions, his humor, and those moments you'd never experience if you didn't challenge him about his beliefs.Ã,  Ã, 

No matter how the argument turns - these kinds of threads spark activity all throughout the forums.Ã,  Ã, They're like public interest groups that get people involved.Ã,  Or at least leave impressions and new dynamics between individuals. and like I said, they help sculpt who those individuals are in an otherwise generic public "forum".

Example:Ã,  Both Andail and Darth Mandarb "clashed" with me during our first encounters in debate threads.Ã,  Ã, Darth had some very differing opinions on the war (no comment!)Ã,  and I shot all kinds of negative rhetoric his way.Ã,  Ã, But its not as if it would have been better had we both kept our mouths shut.Ã,  Ã,  We became individuals that day, in both our minds (as well as the spectators reading quietly).Ã,  Ã,  I can't remember what Andail's problem was.Ã,  He can shove it!Ã,  Ã, 

[MrColossal]

We don't do that dumb stuff.

QFT!

I have to expand on what Brother Evenwolf said about dumb stuff... I hate QFT [quoted for truth] and all the little one liner "haha you're stupid/awesome" things people do on other forums.

On the AGS forums, more often than not, when someone has an opinion they state it either in a long ass post or a concise one. People don't just go "shut up yer gayeh" and then link to smileys shooting shotguns at each other. We don't usually TRY to turn a thread into a flame bait thread. Sometimes threads don't degenerate and I wonder if those "successes" are forgotten to the degenerated ones.

The thing is, discussions about adventure games on these forums sometimes degenerate into stereotyping and name calling. It isn't just high risk threads like religion or what-have-you. People who say "Why are you talking about this on an ADVENTURE GAME FORUM!" are also missing the point of the community that exists here. I personally have a bunch of interests and a bunch of friends I made on this forum. We have a bunch of interests that are equal to or varied from each other, I want to talk about these interests or differences with them, where is the best place? Why, how about the place I met them!

Eric

[Andail]

Polemics is important, because it trains us as communicating beings. Without a need to defend your thesis, the thesis will not develop. Even if people don't seem to change after a heavy debate (even when they have "evidently" "lost" it) people change more than you might think. They may not admit it immediately, of course.
I think several people here have changed since I first met them. In some cases it's because mine and their opinions have moved closer to eachother; in other cases it's a matter of not agreeing but respecting, and understanding their reasons for not thinking as I do.
For instance, Helm and I might not have become so good friends if we hadn't had the disagreement of the century some five years ago. Darth came out as a much better person in my eyes after our first few arguments. Nacho and me have to rinse the air every other week, it seems

So yeah, just avoiding arguments like the plague will leave you quite unchanged, and will just bury the bad spirit inside of you.
Then again, just flame-baiting for the sheer fun of it is inherently bad, and will in the long run make you socially excommunicated. So flaming/trolling = bad, arguing/debating = mostly productive.

[Gregjazz]

IBTL!

Seriously now, I think a little trolling/flaming can be good to solidify the community. I also believe that those things are really unavoidable to some degree. As more and more people join the AGS community, we see issues such as trolling and flaming crop up moreso than in the past, so it's just something we need to put up with (to a certain extent).

I'd rather a forum where there's a little room for trolling and flaming rather than one in which each of your posts are reviewed by moderators, and if it could be slightly considered trolling or flaming, be deleted.

[Raggit]

I agree with what everybody else is saying here.

We do a lot better than a lot of other forums when it comes to handling a massive conflict. 

Plus, not ALL controversial threads develop into a fight.  The thread I posted about religion was very productive and respectful.

It isn't the controversial threads that start fights, immature people who can't handle a debate start fights. 

I believe that debating is a good, healthy thing that has the potential to make you grow intellectually.  I know that I have been shaped by a little bit here and a little bit there of all the debates I've had online, and in "real life."

[Helm]

RTFM!


Personally, I almost never have seen any argument thread here degenerate. If you think they have, I urge you to take the grand tour of other internet fora, like say, gamefaqs or what-have-you and witness der trve horror. If the worst we can get here is manicmatt being touchy about 'paki' and some people being all 'huh, why?' about it, then I can live with that.

Seriously, I've spent time in places where wishing death on somebody and their whole family for whatever trivial reason is just starters and where communicational darwinism is paramount. We're living in internet heaven here in comparison.

And to expound on what Andail is saying above a bit, I'd honestly like to know what people think on issues like racism and religion and whatnot, because otherwise you might make friends here based on false assumptions. For example there's been cases where a person might post something here and make me lose most respect for them by just a few lines. Everything was great before they posted that, but now I know about that side of their personality. Would it be better if we willfully tried to obfuscate our true characteristics in the name of some misplaced sense of internet solidarity? What? Because we all play adventure games?

[Ali]

I don't visit many other forums, so I have no idea what the ironically-used abbreviations in these posts mean.

RTFM!

Except that!

I'm happy not knowing really. One other forum I visit is Blenderartist (né Elysiun) where they don't allow 'political content'. I never visit their off-topic board because I don't feel very comfortable with that degree of censorship. Like many others, I'm happy to put up with a degree of flaming in exchange for greater freedom of expression.

I do think that the phenomenon of flaming comes about as a consequence of the linearity of forum threads. Debates awork laterally, but back-and-forth arguments are linear. For that reason, discussions narturally tend towards the back-and-forth.

[MrColossal]

GOOMBA!

To expand on Helm [wink]

Just to bring his last point out of the depths and into the light. There are also people who I didn't really notice for various reasons and then they post in a debated thread and I gain all sorts of respect for them and actively seek their opinion on various matters.

Debates don't just bring out the worst in people so you can find out what kind of jerk you're really talking to.

[scotch]

I find the forum "discussions" generally very annoying, and it's slightly offputting to me that people I know to be intelligent get so involved in them, especially after they turn into the train wrecks that they often do when certain people get involved. I don't see the appeal at all, just like I don't see why you'd want to have a 40 person discussion on anything in real life, especially if the 40 people include very young people, and very stupid people. Picturing some of you guys in a heated argument with Skyfire about anything is amusing, and sad.

OTOH! I recognise that a lot of people find them entertaining, so I'm ok with the just not clicking on them if I can help it policy. I expect this is more a problem with my attitude to arguments in general.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I endorse Scotch's post.  Also:

Seriously now, I think a little trolling/flaming can be good to solidify the community.

Solidify or polarize, Greg?

[Helm]

I find the forum "discussions" generally very annoying, and it's slightly offputting to me that people I know to be intelligent get so involved in them, especially after they turn into the train wrecks that they often do when certain people get involved.

I expect this is more a problem with my attitude to arguments in general.

Yes, it's more your problem than real from where I'm sitting 'cause I haven't seen a train-wreck discussion here in ages. More like go-kart pile-up at worst.

[Ghormak]

I can't remember having ever seen any proper flaming on these forums. The worst name-calling usually takes the form of "you're stupid if you think that! *smile*". In other communities, you call somebody a "fucking faggot" even when you're helping them with their problems. I know, it's absurd.

I like the state of the forums here, because most people who post actually have something useful or interesting to say. I don't contribute to debate/argument very often, because I often feel I don't really have anything worthwhile to add. Sometimes I wish more people would think like that, but in general I think these forums are a-ok.

Edit:
And yes, all that "First post!" and "QFT!" crap is such a senseless waste of everybody's time! I'm glad we've managed to stay away from it.

[Andail]

I don't contribute to debate/argument very often, because I often feel I don't really have anything worthwhile to add.

Well you don't, which is why we're all glad you only post 0.5 posts a day.

[Ghormak]

Ooh! A flame!

[Meowster]

Picturing some of you guys in a heated argument with Skyfire about anything is amusing, and sad.

I'M NOT A CHILD!!!! YOU HAVE NO PROOF!




I think to be honest in real life I wouldn't bother arguing with people like SkyFire. Because I would feel bad arguing with a 15 year old boy, but also to be honest I don't think he'd be quite as rude in real life. For instance, this gem of a PM he sent me after he threatened to rape my 'transexual ass'... sorry SkyFire, it's too good to not share:

Feel free to shit yourself as you experience my rage! Fuck bastard super cockshitmaster!!!! fuckity fuck fuck fuck! cuntlicker wallfucker!

Of course, people don't behave like that in real life so much, but I think for the most part, the rest of us are pretty much our true selves on this forum... or close enough, anyway. If everybody was like Skyfire, no, there wouldn't be a point in arguing. But very few people are... most people have something interesting to say or contribute, and it all makes for very interesting reading


Clever people arguing is generally an interesting thing to observe

[lo_res_man]

What I like about this forum is the grand discussions, the thrust and parry, the royal raspberry-ing. Sure, we can turn into gibbering doody heads, but that's the price we must pay for the freedom to express ourselves. For the most part we are mature men and woman, who sometimes get a bit carried away. Sure hot button issues can polarize us, but they do anyway, isn't it better to express our opinions, and expose our true colours, then to seethe behind a wall of courtly blandness?

[Nacho]

Hey Petter! To rinse the air? Why? I know I pushed my theory of "reverse racism" a bit too much comparing it to terrorist acts, but that was just that, a dialectic tactic to force you to give an oppinion in a direction or the opposite.Ã,  It didn' t corrupted the air for me in any way. I was just discussing with a person I personally know, a friend, knowing that he was going to react as if he was personally talking with me, which means, without missunderstandings, over reactions, bad stories, or hard feelings.

If that arguments created the billionesimal part of a gram of annoyance in you, I am not just also to apologise, but also disposed to go back about all I said. It (winning a discussion) wouldn' t be worth of it (annoyimg a friend)

So, if needed, sorry. You have me in msn, if you see me we can talk about that. anyway, apologies again.

As a note side, I' d like to say the name of guys I consider mates who were "assholes" for me before, because of discussions... DG MacPhee, JetXL and Mordalles.

Having a discussion, apology/receives apologies and those apologies to be accepted might be most powerfull as a friend maker than years of "normal" internet relationship.

So, if this can work with you Petter too, in case the relation with you and me was "corrupted" from your point of view (first news for me, really) I' d like to test the therapy.Ã, 

[Blackthorne]

For instance, this gem of a PM he sent me after he threatened to rape my 'transexual ass'... sorry SkyFire, it's too good to not share:

Feel free to shit yourself as you experience my rage! Fuck bastard super cockshitmaster!!!! fuckity fuck fuck fuck! cuntlicker wallfucker!

I think this may very well be the most entertaining item I've read on a message board all year.

Oh, and the requisite....

You're a bint for starting this thread.

Bt

[skyfire2]

I think to be honest in real life I wouldn't bother arguing with people like SkyFire. Because I would feel bad arguing with a 15 year old boy, but also to be honest I don't think he'd be quite as rude in real life. For instance, this gem of a PM he sent me after he threatened to rape my 'transexual ass'... sorry SkyFire, it's too good to not share:

Feel free to shit yourself as you experience my rage! Fuck bastard super cockshitmaster!!!! fuckity fuck fuck fuck! cuntlicker wallfucker!

I told yutzster to "fuck off" because she continued to spam me with garbage. She whined about it so i did more and the spamming stopped.