Perusing the forum stats, I notice that there's a steady decline in the number of posts and new topics each month. Also, I find myself usually entirely uninterested in anything that comes up except in Tech forum and Completed Games. Is it me, or are the forums on a slow decline?
Discuss.
A sensationalist topic to attract attention? How unsurprising!
There are always a heap of posters who appear out of nowhere, grace the forums with their opinions for a few weeks/months, and then either disappear or show enough attitude to make themselves no longer welcome by consensus. This is a pretty common event in all forums, really, with periods of high activity as people appear and periods of low activity when they move on or the regular forum members have other things to do. These few months also comprise a few major holidays for a lot of people, so they are no doubt busy dealing with that.
I'm not really sure what the point of this post is other than to say 'wah ;('. Not trying to be a dick, but seriously, if you want there to be more activity then why not contribute more relevant posts to encourage others to do so?
Finally, does it really matter if fewer people are cluttering the threads? AGS will keep being updated regardless, and the people who like using it will continue to do so. I see no problem here!
Yay! This means we are in an era of game creation! The masters of the new age shall create the legends of this generation, after which we shall have another age to talk about those legends.
/me prophetically points into the future while wearing a hooded shirt
Actually, I've been doing the opposite lately. I check out the General, Adventure and Critics Lounge mostly. But then again, I'm mostly a lurker. On another note, I wonder how long a forum generation is?
I' ve been like 20 times close to do this very same post, SSH. The problem is not the number of new threads, IMO, but the quality. Seems that nowadays most of them are "I have a blog", or "Somebody knows this website?" or "My screen has a blue blob in a corner, how can I solve it?".
I think that the reason is that heavy weights do not longer post, at least in an active way. No Helms, no DGs, not much Andail... The only posts that results interestings now (as far as I remember, maybe later I will remember more) are RickJ's. Apparently threads like this appear each two or three years, so, probably the level is just the same as it was, but maybe some of the "oldies" have a bit nostalgia of the way we "remember" the forums before.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 26/11/2007 15:06:58
I'm not really sure what the point of this post is other than to say 'wah ;('. Not trying to be a dick, but seriously, if you want there to be more activity then why not contribute more relevant posts to encourage others to do so?
Because I want other people to do the hard work, duh
I'll be honest here. This is my second account here. The first one being "BunnyMilk." I didn't ever really leave, I was idle on IRC or browse the forums but I wont post and try my best not to talk on IRC because really you all make me feel pretty unwelcome. And I don't know why that is, maybe it's just attitude towards newer members or whatever but I don't want to post or talk because the response I usually get is just like "WHO ARE YOU YOUR OPINION DOESN'T EVEN COUNT *SCOFF*." and it's pretty unwelcoming.
Maybe other people feel the same way and because you are the regular posters who are settled in your ways you just don't really get that it is happening.
That's just my opinion though.
I think that no one can say "I REALLY tried to fit here, be I only got bad replies". God, even the most unpopular member finally ended being respected and having a reputation after having a bit of patience and posting in a mature manner (Flukeblake).
I don't think I ever posted immaturely or was ever disrespected or anything? I think I was just another guy. What I meant was that the attitude towards new members was fairly unwelcoming at the time and saying "Well if you just stick it out and post maturely that will be cool." doesn't really cut it if it is not the fault of the new member wanting to post, just that the current members are skeptical of new members joining thinking that everyone is just another Internet lame-ass who can be treated like jerks until they leave so that us, the elitist regulars can keep to ourselves.
Anyway I don't want to come across as a jerk already after just 4 posts on my new account but that was the impression I got the first time round. Maybe it's different now.
Well...
The main new thread creators are somewhat gone...
The immature people have mature...
The annoying people have felt...
What did you expect? :(
Hi, it has been a long time since my last post on AGS Forum . So the forums are not what they used to be? How come?
You know what is strange? I was a frequent visitor (more lurker rather than heavy poster) over here a few years back. It was kind of an escape from reality for me. And then something changed. What? Ummm.... I started to work in a game company. Not PC but mobile phones one. And from that point games were no longer a pastime but a regular job. I still loved games (and I still do) but once you have gaming as a job you somehow don't feel all that tempted to spend much of your free time reading about.. games. This is maybe an offtopic rant but worth two cents anyway.
Quote from: ambientcoffeecup on Mon 26/11/2007 16:54:57
I don't think I ever posted immaturely or was ever disrespected or anything? I think I was just another guy. What I meant was that the attitude towards new members was fairly unwelcoming at the time and saying "Well if you just stick it out and post maturely that will be cool." doesn't really cut it if it is not the fault of the new member wanting to post, just that the current members are skeptical of new members joining thinking that everyone is just another Internet lame-ass who can be treated like jerks until they leave so that us, the elitist regulars can keep to ourselves.
Anyway I don't want to come across as a jerk already after just 4 posts on my new account but that was the impression I got the first time round. Maybe it's different now.
I think that your honestity will be appreciated and you' ll probably becoming more popular (in the good sense) that you would without posting, but what I meant was not "Maybe you posted like a jerk with your first account!" but "Maybe you didn' t tried enough" or "Maybe you had an intial (and false) feeling of not being welcomed, but you were".
Good luck with your second account, though! :)
I think most of the forums are as good as they ever were. It's only really the General Forum that seems to have run out of ideas. But this could be a good thing. Maybe it means people are concentrating on the creative side and we should be expecting some awesome games in the not-too-distant future.
The General forum is a bit slow these days. But it will pick up again. It's like newspapers when they go through a spell of having nothing to talk about so they report on Queen Elizabeth II's rubber duck [The Sun September 12th 2001].
As for feeling welcome as a newbie. I joined about a year ago, having been a lurker for a while beforehand. I made sure my first post didn't break any rules and I was more active in the Beginner's forum and Critics lounge. This showed I was proactive and keen and therefore I was generally quite well accepted. You can't be friends with everyone, but that's the same in real life.
As for me, I have periods when I am not so much interested in discussing on forums, and I have periods when I am hyper-active. If everyone has these, that it can be understandable that such things happen...
I've had similar thoughts off and on for a while now. I mostly have attributed it to my own interest waxing and waning but have also thought perhaps there may be other factors.
- Political Winds of Change - I use the terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" here loosely because they mean different things in different countries. It seems to me that when I first joined the AGS forums "Liberal" opinions went mostly unchallenged and "Conservative" opinions were few and heavily criticized. I have a sense that this is no longer the case and wonder if true what impact it would have on the forum?
- Over Moderation - Occasionally I see "You guys run a really tight hip over here ..." type comments and wonder if perhaps our ship is a little too tight. I know it's a thankless job being a moderator and I personally have no complaints about how things are being run. I'm just not sure that everyone, especially our newer members see it that way. I don't want to single anyone out but I remember a recent example that illustrates my point.
A new member asked something to the effect "I am excited about AGS but don't even know where to start, it's kind of overwhelming. Would someone be willing to hold my hand a bit to help me get started?" The response was basically "Read the manual and be more specific." and the thread was locked. Perhaps it would have been better to explain that such a generic and broad appeal for help is unlikely to generate much response and then explain that most people begin by following the tutorial in the manual and ask more specific questions as they come up. Then leave the thread open to die a natural death, who knows someone may have jumped in with encouragement and help?
Anyway it's perhaps something to think about.
- Linux Brain Drain - Has anyone wondered how many sharp young minds we loose to Linux-ers everyday? Our method of Checking the fourm stats to see what OS the members are using so as to determine their references is a bit flawed. If they are using the forum, they are most likely using AGS. If they are using AGS then they are most certainly doing so in Windows.
- Overwhelming, Overbearing Old Farts - such as myself sometimes get carried away participating in discussions, especially GENGEN ones. I suppose some people are not accustomed to being confronted with opposing points of view and so feel uncomfortable and intimidated when it happens. I wonder if we (i.e. me) should restrain ourselves more often and to what extent. Maybe something like a 50 words or less posting limit. ;)
On a more serious note, maybe we should establish a debating etiquette where in the case where if someone is overwhelmed, offended, intimidated, or looses badly, the winning or offending participant sends a polite PM saying that they enjoyed the discussion and not to take anything said there personally. Just a thought.
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Not trying to be a dick, but seriously, if you want there to be more activity then why not contribute more relevant posts to encourage others to do so?
You must be joking right? SSH is one of our most prodigious contributors. Perhaps we should resolve to follow his example?
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Finally, does it really matter if fewer people are cluttering the threads? AGS will keep being updated regardless, and the people who like using it will continue to do so. I see no problem here
Interests change over time and people move on. How many members do you think we have that are over 30, 40 or 50 years old. If nobody is interested in AGS then CJ won't be either and it will pass into cyber history along with C/PM and paper tape.
P.S. Nacho, thanks for the kind words
[edit]
I almost forgot, SSH you have plagiarized the great baseball player Yogi Berra who once said
"The future ain't what it used to be!" ;D
Quote from: RickJ on Mon 26/11/2007 18:22:43
SSH is one of our most prodigious contributors. Perhaps we should resolve to follow his example?
We need more posts, like this one, that:
a) Say nice things about me
b) Allow me to make pithy, trite replies
The real reason is that lately I've been dating my girlfriend and haven't been here so often to bring the quality to the posts and opinions. Sorry about that, I'll try and change it.
Quote from: RickJ on Mon 26/11/2007 18:22:43
- Political Winds of Change - I use the terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" here loosely because they mean different things in different countries. It seems to me that when I first joined the AGS forums "Liberal" opinions went mostly unchallenged and "Conservative" opinions were few and heavily criticized. I have a sense that this is no longer the case and wonder if true what impact it would have on the forum?
P.S. Nacho, thanks for the kind words
Hehe, you' re welcome... To Caesar what belongs to Caesar.
But I don' t understant the first part... Do you mean that it is easier to tell in this forums that you are liberal or conservative now?
HOW HARD WAS BEFORE??? ;D
And I can' t realise how being easier to express an opinion (liberal opinions, in this case) can be bad to the forums? Maybe I understood the whole sentence in the oposing way it means... sorry. ^_^
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But I don' t understant the first part... Do you mean that it is easier to tell in this forums that you are liberal or conservative now?
Let me try to explain a little better.
It seems to me that before if you expressed a "Liberal" political opinion almost everybody would agree with you and few if any would disagree. If you expressed a "Conservative" opinion almost everyone would disagree with you and hardly anyone would agree with you. I think that (or wonder if) it is now more balanced in stead of being all one way
If true then it would have been easier to express a "Liberal" opinion before because you would be assured that everyone would agree with or at least accept what you said.
I think every once in a while poor old Nacho finds that he is that one lone voice who disagrees with the masses. ;D
I don't really know if politics have changed that much, I just sometimes wonder. Who can know about that stuff for sure anyway?
About being made feel unwelcome; I've never seen anyone being treated as such, save for those who, in some manner, brought it on themselves.
"n00bs" (hateful term as it is) have always been, imho, treated fairly and with respect, as opposed to other forums I've had the misfortune of frequenting.
But if you never post or say anything, to make your presence known, you're bound to feel that people are ignoring you.
Regarding elitist members: Who are these people? I've been a regular, contributing member for almost four years, and I've yet to receive my Elitest Membership Card and Secret Decoder Ring.
Sure, there are those members who have been here from the "beginning", but they don't, or rather shouldn't, command any more respect, beyond common courtesy, than regular law-abiding members. They certainly don't get it from me (buncha lousy crumb-bums), and I doubt they have the overwhelming desire to be treated as forum royalty.
If they wish to engage in such behaviour amongst themselves (secret handshakes, genital tattoos, etc) then they are free to do so. But I rarely see them flaunt such behaviour in public, or "pull rank" on us plebs.
EDIT: These forums still seem fairly liberal to me.
Well, you could argue that a thread like this comes up about once a year like clockwork; but on the other hand it is interesting to see in the forum stats that over the last 4 months, the number of posts has reduced by about 20% from its previous level.
And if you go back to the heady highs of summer 2004, there were twice as many posts each day as there are now.
But at the same time, the number of new members and the number of active members each month has stayed about the same for the last couple of years.
So what does this tell us? We've got the same number of people, but they're making fewer posts. You could argue that's because at the moment we don't have any over-posting kids running riot all over the forums, but surely they never accounted for 1000 posts per month.
Which leaves us with a few possible conclusions:
* Are fewer people using AGS, thus the Tech forums have less posts?
* Are people being put off by heavy-handed moderation, and thus posting less?
* Have people gone to other forums like Adventure Gamers to discuss more general adventure-related topics?
* Has the General Forum quietened down due to a lack of interesting threads?
I'd say it could well be a bit of each.
As Rick has, I've also seen the AGS Forums referred to as over-moderated and unfriendly, particularly with reference to the Games in Production and Beginners Tech Forum. But it's only natural for the moderators there to get frustrated when they see the same "newbie threads" coming up day in day out, and I'm grateful to them for sticking with it.
Perhaps Nacho is right in that some of our more thought-provoking posters aren't active much any more. But that's no excuse, because there are always new people joining and they can't all be boring!
One thing I have noticed about these forums is that when somebody starts an engaging thread, it can explode very quickly into a huge thread. There have been days when I've checked the General Forum one night and found nothing of interest, and then checked it the next day and found a new thread with 150 replies that have all been posted in the meantime.
Which tells us perhaps that we still have just as active a community as ever, but that most of the time people don't find anything interesting to post about.
QuoteYou must be joking right? SSH is one of our most prodigious contributors. Perhaps we should resolve to follow his example?
No. While I do not question that SSH has created many useful utilities for AGS, this discussion is about a dearth in the quality and quantity of posts (quality being relative to what SSH considers worthwhile in this case). Even a casual glance at the forum stats will show you that his activity mainly revolves around the Tech forum and General Discussion, which is hardly all there is to the forums. I refuse to continue a discussion that will simply balloon into a 'this member is great because of x and we should all strive to be like him' debate, however, because that's not the point of this thread at all.
QuoteInterests change over time and people move on. How many members do you think we have that are over 30, 40 or 50 years old. If nobody is interested in AGS then CJ won't be either and it will pass into cyber history along with C/PM and paper tape.
This is the way of all things, though. AGS is already an engine heavily based on nostalgia, and only those people with an enduring fondness for old 2d adventures and gameplay (or novice game makers who just want to learn the basics) are going to find value in using it. Everyone else is going to experiment with more advanced engines like Ogre3D to try and make games that are a part of the current trends.
QuoteOn a more serious note, maybe we should establish a debating etiquette where in the case where if someone is overwhelmed, offended, intimidated, or looses badly, the winning or offending participant sends a polite PM saying that they enjoyed the discussion and not to take anything said there personally. Just a thought.
Many people already do this if they see unintentional feelings hurt, and I see no reason to force it. Also, I'm confused by the losing/winning comment since some 90% of internet debates end up in a battle of opinions rather than facts, and convincing someone half a world away that you're right (and they're wrong) typically doesn't work on internet forums, though we keep trying!
QuoteOver Moderation - Occasionally I see "You guys run a really tight hip over here ..." type comments and wonder if perhaps our ship is a little too tight. I know it's a thankless job being a moderator and I personally have no complaints about how things are being run. I'm just not sure that everyone, especially our newer members see it that way. I don't want to single anyone out but I remember a recent example that illustrates my point.
The example you listed seems a bit heavy handed, I agree, but I would argue that it's not typical of moderators here to just dismiss people without help. Several of us are very active and helpful in our respective forums without being harsh, but I also think that moderators should be allowed to be human and have opinions (even unpopular ones!) on issues.
Edit: I pretty much agree with what CJ wrote, though I'm not sure about the moderation aspect. I think that the only people driven away by our rules are those people with no interest in learning and observing them (and we're better off without those types).
Of the 4 conclusions I would guess that the first and last are the most likely, since there are so many game engines out there to try with 3d and such and because people probably just don't have anything interesting to offer right now.
Ohhhh, RickJ, I think I am lost in translation! In Spanish, Liberal and Conservative (Liberal and conservador) is the same word! :D So, in English, a liberal is a word for those who are left oriented?
I think you must PM me, my friend, for explaining it to me again, or better, post it here for general laugh at the silly Spanish boy ::). Do you mean that before almost everyone would clap "left" opinions and that almost everyone would critic "right" ones?
I agree that that happened before... But that stills happens now, IMO. Anyway, I don' t see how a change in that attitude is wrong, though, since making an enviroment more pleasant to express opinions must be IMO good. (Unless you mean that there is more room now for "extreme right" opinions, that has to be allways censorable...)
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Ohhhh, RickJ, I think I am lost in translation! In Spanish, Liberal and Conservative (Liberal and conservador) is the same word! Cheesy So, in English, a liberal is a word for those who are left oriented?
Yeah, you got it now, more or less.
Like I said before political labels mean different things in different countries. When I was in India they have as many as 30 political parties and two of them are communist parties who hate each other. Imaging if you meet someone who is from one of the communist parties and tell that you are communist also. Instead of them thinking "You are one of us, lets be friends." you may be surprised that they are instead thinking "You are not one of us, so you must be one of them and so I hate you." :=
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I think you must PM me, my friend, for explaining it to me again, or better, post it here for general laugh at the silly Spanish boy Roll Eyes. Do you mean that before almost everyone would clap "left" opinions and that almost everyone would critic "right" ones?
Exactly.
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I agree that that happened before... But that stills happens now, IMO. Anyway, I don' t see how a change in that attitude is wrong, though, since making an enviroment more pleasant to express opinions must be IMO good. (Unless you mean that there is more room now for "extreme right" opinions, that has to be allways censorable...)
I am not talking about extreme right or left. I don't mean to say that such a change in attitude is wrong. Only that people perhaps feel more comfortable expressing their opinions knowing that there will be many people who agree with them. If the peoples opinions are more balanced then there is less of a guarantee of finding support for any given position. I agree that it ought to make for a more pleasant environment for discussion but some people prefer security.
I don't think there is a large change in attitude but every once in a while I get the feeling that things aren't as one sidded as they once seemed. Perhaps it's just my perception?
Ok, now we understand us each other (me understands you, basically...)
a) I don' t see that it's balanced right now, again, perceptions... who knows, maybe yours is right, maybe mine.
b) Let's assume that, Yeah! Now it's more balanced and it's easier for conservatives to express their opinions. You have told that for you that is ok, but maybe some people might want more security. Security for what? For expressing only one current of opinion? That was not security, my friend! :) I think I havent' t totally understood your post, unless you mean something like:
"Now that there is more balance, people can put the guard down, therefore, now, you can see more stupidities than before"
I might agree with that.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 26/11/2007 19:24:15
I pretty much agree with what CJ wrote, though I'm not sure about the moderation aspect. I think that the only people driven away by our rules are those people with no interest in learning and observing them (and we're better off without those types).
I'm not so sure about this. This place has a lot of rules, especially the fact that each forum has its own set of rules.
For example, if I was new here, and excited about my game, and posted a Games In Production thread with all the details but one screenshot instead of two, I'd probably get my thread locked with a "READ THE RULES!!" type comment. That'd be pretty offputting and I might well not bother coming back.
Or I might post a Beginners Tech Question asking something, and get my thread locked with a "READ THE MANUAL" comment. I might be the nicest, cleverest bloke in the world, but I missed that in the manual. And as a result, I've now been put off making my game; or worse, left to struggle with AGS for hours because I'm afraid to ask another question.
Now, please don't take this as a criticism of the moderators -- as I said, I really appreciate the work you guys do. All I'm doing is trying to point out how our moderation policies can be seen by newcomers.
On a separate matter, this seems like as good a place as any to discuss the Adventure-related Chat forum. Like it or not, adventure-related chat has gone elsewhere and this forum seems to average about 1 post per day nowadays.
Is it still worth keeping as its own forum or should we merge it with General Discussion ?
I'm not a 'full-time' regular. Once every few months I get the adventure game bug, and I become a regular visitor for a while.
One thing I noticed is that the 'Critics Lounge' subforum get less posts, both in new threads, but also in replies to threads. For example, there are now 5 threads with posts from today, in the past it would be almost all threads on the first page that got new replies in a day.
If you want people to stay in this community, I think this subforum is one of the main areas to focus on. Encourage people posting there, and help them, and they will stay.
(I do have two threads there I started recently which got a lot of replies, so it isn't too bad. I'm happy with the replies I got).
If the real issue here is a dwindling amount of discussion, either side could be right.
If the board is now more balanced and conservative viewpoints are more acceptable, there should be less argument between the two sides, which would dry up the amount of offensive/defensive postings.
If the board is now more staunchly liberal (which I don't happen to see), then the conservatives (such as myself) may feel shy about expressing their viewpoints and thus decline to do so.
As for me, I haven't paid attention to the political trends because I'm not a politically minded individual. I've never feared attack from any other forumer, though. None that I fear would back me into an intellectual corner, at any rate.
I think the whole discussion in this thread about liberal/conservative paints a good image of what is 'wrong' with this forum.
It's an adventure game forum, why are we even discussing politics?
More gaming threads!
For example the 'So, what's the deal with adventure games?' ( http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=32976.0 ) is a really great example of threads that really make me visit this forum.
I'm currently balancing a job, school, learning to code in Python, learning how to fork off of BSD and write my own deriavative, get AGS to work on Linux AND have a social life.
Regardless, this post has deeply moved me, and I SHALL be on the boards more often. :P
RickJ, I'd just like to quickly point out that I remember the example you cited very well. The bloke in question was too vague for anyone to be able to help him, and came across as not even bothering to read the tutorial. This was pointed out to him in stern but polite and agreeable tones.
Later he proved not to be a nice person, as I recall a conversation he had with another AGSer, who told us about said conversation.
We are helpful. We just aren't silly.
As for me, I'm both thoroughly occupied with work, thoroughly occupied with making my first original AGS game (serious!) and I'm very thoroughly occupied with unexpected love in my life. Naturally, posting takes second, third and even fourth place to all this.
I agree with most of the points made in this thread about the forum, but I think it has always been like that. And after a while those things can really start to annoy/bore you. And since more people are leaving then are joining (because of dispopularity of adventures, competing forums or because someone was an .. ass) it may seem as if the forum has changed, but in reality your own standards and expectations have changed.
I'm just basing this on what I read, since I don't post that often.
I don't see a problem with merging the adventure thread provided that the recruiting and posting your desire to help threads are moved somewhere else, since they probably aren't general discussion topics? The only good fit I could think of for them right now would be Popular Threads, since that area seems to draw a lot of attention from new people just because of the name? Or perhaps it's time to give recruitment an area to itself and allow detailed, individual posts asking for work like some other forums do? I believe Dave Gilbert was mentioning that the clutter in the services/recruitment threads were the main reason why he rarely looks at them, and I have seen others agree.
Quote from: Stupot on Mon 26/11/2007 17:52:57It's like newspapers when they go through a spell of having nothing to talk about so they report on Queen Elizabeth II's rubber duck [The Sun September 12th 2001].
Sorry - I know it was probably a product of different time zones or something - but the day after the WTC fell was a slow news day?? ;D
Anyway, back to the topic. I kind of lost the thread of thought halfway (politics? liberal? conservative? moderation? what?)
But I know that I haven't been too active in these forums despite checking them almost every day since I signed up last year. Why?
Well, I'm first and foremost a lurker by personality. So that's my fault. But I guess this thread has inspired me to speak up more, so it's done something :)
But also I don't say something unless I feel like I have something to contribute. My profile says I'm most active in GiP (because of two games there), and also in Critics Lounge, because I feel like I can help out in there. I think a lot of people are like that. They have areas of "specialisation". So if some people stop posting for a while, their presence will be most felt in the forums they contributed most to.
I've seen lots of newbies get incredibly polite, patient responses (sometimes in cases where I think sarcasm and snark wouldn't be out of place! so kudos to these forums for keeping civil :) ), so I don't think that's a problem that they're being driven away by lack of civility. But there is definitely a clique-ish feel (as there is in any other community). And it's darn hard to try to talk in such a context... you can try to respond to some things but people just talk over your head sometimes. They're not doing it on purpose, I don't think... it's just something that happens.
How to change this? I don't know. I guess it puts the onus on the newbie to speak long enough and loud enough to be heard without becoming really annoying. I don't know.
I think the main reason why people are posting here less is because the forums aren't as fun as they used to be.
That "because" has a pretty big "why" hiding behind it. What about the forum is less fun? What changed?
I come on here for inspiration and relaxation after a day of pulling my hair out because of the kids climbing on the furniture and yelling. I also come on the forums to get feedback on my in-the-works games and THAT is what actually keeps me going (the friendly responses).
There's a few times where I've been insulted and criticized (in not a very good way) by older members and that has made me overly-cautious. I mostly lurk the site but I'm afraid of replying or starting a thread in fear of being put down and have my feelings hurt. It's hard feeling accepted by the community when it is focused on every move you make... a bit like a very stern dad figure.
Maybe the forums aren't as "fun" anymore because there's not much lee-way given?
It's just my two cents and I don't mean to sound insulting to anyone. ;D
Quote from: Nightfable on Tue 27/11/2007 04:19:50
I mostly lurk the site but I'm afraid of replying or starting a thread in fear of being put down and have my feelings hurt. It's hard feeling accepted by the community when it is focused on every move you make... a bit like a very stern dad figure.
Well put. This is how I feel much of the time here. :)
QuoteThat "because" has a pretty big "why" hiding behind it. What about the forum is less fun? What changed?
Those are good questions.
I think the answer is probably because people are having less fun and more people are creating threads that are limited in any enjoyable participation. When I think of these forums now, I think of words like "serious", "dry" and "straightlaced". There tends to be very little playfulness and lot of seriousness here.
Keep in mind I'm not saying the forums should resort to immaturity or anything like that. I just think people need to be a little more playful.
Quote
I think the whole discussion in this thread about liberal/conservative paints a good image of what is 'wrong' with this forum.
Jimmy here's the thing ...
In response to SSH's question I tried to think of a few things that might be factors and posted them. One of them didn't translate well into Spanish and NACHO asked me to clarify. We traded a couple of laughs and posts trying to sort out the translation. DG and others used to post political topics in GENGEN that generated massive interest all the time. I hardly ever agreed with DG's opinions but I very much enjoyed engaging in those passionate discussions.
Rui it wasn't my intention to dwell on the right or wrong of a single incident but rather to illustrate my point about how these kinds of things may be seen by newcomers. In this particular incident what harm would have come from not locking the thread?
I think we should all consider what Nightfable has said and evaluate how her comments may apply to ourselves, myself included. Well said Nightfable.
I wouldn't say that forum has gone boring, but game production is dried up indeed.
My review:
It was a summer of ghosts this year, with very little of noticeable coming out, and even though autumn brought some new games, either ready or closing to deadlines, it's still not what it used to be.
Ah, and there's no blood. No new rebellious noobs trying to run over every moderator and veteran user. Almost everyone is supertolerant and understanding now, and so even every attempt to provoke mess fails pretty quickly.
If someone comes in guns blazing, (s)he finds no resistance, everyone tries to understand him, until moderator simply mops whole thread up. I'm not complaining, just analyzing this.
Any hardcore oldschool moderation I see at all is Darth Mandarb's work at Games In Production where spamming and rule ignoring won't last a day. But it's almost only place where misbehaving occurs, anyway.
I've been Critics Lounge resident for 4 years, and this is one place that's gone down. There's no more superb entries, no noticeable quality in entries, and no-one cares to C&C any story or music thread.
Competitions and activities have gone through strong change. Photoshop friday, background competition and tune contests have suffered strong abandonment lately, but Animation and Sprite compos are very strong with many entries.
There's 2 forum corners that have always been quite a mess and still are: Popular Threads and Hints & Tips.
Gengen is same as always, including a rant, latest world news discussion and technical help request always on first page.
I wouldn't say that this has changed much during 4 years.
But a weird feeling that something has gone missing from old-good-AGS haunts me lately. Is that v3.0 that I can't force myself to like, or old veterans not making any games anymore, I don't know.
QuoteThere's a few times where I've been insulted and criticized (in not a very good way) by older members and that has made me overly-cautious. I mostly lurk the site but I'm afraid of replying or starting a thread in fear of being put down and have my feelings hurt. It's hard feeling accepted by the community when it is focused on every move you make... a bit like a very stern dad figure.
You'll get used to it.
After all, your "start" wasn't that bad.
I remember myself not realizing the size and difference of world and people around it when joining the "club" and stepped into way too many buckets before getting whole act together. You can't like everyone and everyone won't like you. So you have to filter a bit.
I categorize AGSers like this:
Artist (admired ones)
Techie (CJ's evil henchmen or module makers)
Helper (People from beginners tech)
Musician (Professional and honored ones, quite unproductive though)
n00b (teH newbs)
Game Maker (loved ones, productive people)
Talker (generic gengen babbler, useless ones)
You have shown yourself as talented Artist - having a place in community instantly, so I wouldn't worry.
For a long time I stuck to the C+C. was also, rather kowtowing to anybody, reading my first posts was very timid,(sometimes an inadvertent ass as well) I really started reading Gen-Gen, when there was this HUGE thread about christianity and white magic and all that jazz. I stuck my neck out and voiced an opinion. I was disagreed with, but it was so much fun. Those massive forever threads are why I love this forum. It helped me gain a thicker skin, whilst having a rather enjoyable discussion. I think my favourite thread was when we all disagreed on wether the forgotten element was silicone. you know the one.
Well, I check many threads but yeah I've noticed that as well. We're a kinda close community. People around the globe are obsessed with writing in L33T and when they're forced(which is a good thing) to write in proper english they're put off. Also we all have a bad habit about hitting a guy when he's down. Which means that when someone breaks the rule we usually make fun of him... But we can't change it's that what the forums are like..
Quote from: DGMacphee on Tue 27/11/2007 05:09:38I think the answer is probably because people are having less fun and more people are creating threads that are limited in any enjoyable participation. When I think of these forums now, I think of words like "serious", "dry" and "straightlaced". There tends to be very little playfulness and lot of seriousness here.
These two threads came to my mind after reading DG's post:
Shoes for Santa Claus' wife (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=23728.0)
Dog pixel art (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=24606.0)
I miss that! Then again, I haven't really read the forum properly in ages, so perhaps there has been more similar threads recently. I just don't find the forum as interesting as it used to be for me anymore.
Actually, can I venture a contraversial opinion:
Move the popular threads back into gen-gen. That way gen-gen stays interesting even when nothing is happening because of the old stalwarts and encourages people to think of interesting new things to chat about.
Or maybe I'm spouting rubbish.
Personally, I'd also like to see some silly game threads like AdventureGamers have in their free-for-all forum, but I know they are often kept separate in C&A, too.
Come to think of it, this issue has been mildly brought up in Yufster's latest thread, whichever it was. She kept being told "write sensible stuff or stop creating threads at all", basically. But for me, her posts and DG's were a big part of the forums when I first came here.
It shocked me, that the attitude towards her had turned so much, and I said so.
Doesn't mean we should allow rubbish... but that's the thing, it wasn't rubbish, it was rather friendly stuff. Maybe we did get really stuck-up, if we don't recognize between friendly rubbish (which everyone can take a swing at, like in the two threads Petteri linked to) and true rubbish...
You categorize people? It's not enough that they are human beings or whatever, they have to be lumped into set categories defining them by what kind of artistic output they have? It's things like the word n00b that probably need to be dropped from peoples vocabulary because it's such a coined internet term from a long time ago that lumps every new member of the community together in one "You are Shit" category.
No wonder people are leaving if people say things like that. "Here are your set categories. You as a new member are official a n00b well done."
It's like saying "Just because you are new, you are automatically shit." and not only that it is like laughable QUAKE lingo or something. I thought you only heard people talk like that on Counterstrike "lol pwned that n00b." It's so broken.
I will repeat that the fun people are gone from here. Don't know if they were chassed away, or just stoped coming and the forum turned this way. Maybe it's just that they grew up a bit as well? I mean, it does tend to happen at some point... :P
I'm fun! Weeeeeeeeeee!!!!!
Okay I'll stop.
"I'm not so manic now..."
Hmm maybe I should think of a thread to post, I haven't actually posted a topic in ages!
*This boring thread is sponsered by The Parliament channel, the exciting tv program that is probably still on air somehow. Watch! A bored man sitting down asleep! Entertainment doesn't get better than this. I say that, but then people will apparently watch people asleep in Big Brother...*
How I survived:
1st week
1) Read the rules
2) Read the posts
3) If I had any technical questions, I would FIRST use the 'search' link and type in keywords that would probably be involved in my question.
4) Work on a SHORT - MEDIUM game, but DO NOT POST a GIP thread!
2nd week (depending on the game, at least have a structured summary plot and two backgrounds)
1) It's safer to post, BUT REMEMBER, use proper english!
2) Post a few comments in the crittics lounge, don't crittic yet (what do you know? you're a nooB!) COMPLIMENT them!
3) Make sure you've posted about 10 times before you;
4) Post a GIP thread of your game, it would probably be ignored for a while, but hey as long as you followed the rules, everything's fine and Darth can rest.
3rd week
1) You can Joke but remember to be suttle.
2)You can crittic and ask for crittics (don't be offended if someone say you suck, instead listen to the critics and actually try to improve; prove those suckers wrong). When critisizing be suttle and try to sound calm and not intimidating. (" It looks good, but the ___could be improved with a little shading" NOT " This is utterly the most abismal attempt to draw, in fact I wouldn't even call it drawing at all! You are pathetic!")
a month later...
1) you're secured, if you followed the above and continue to be nice, people might begin to notice you and recognize you as an okay person so;
2) this time you can show a little bit of you (no, you still have to follow the rules, so no bad spelling! but you're allowed to curse and post various innuedos)
3) If you've finished your game, good. But make sure your game is proof read and betatested.
--
If you're very good in art or in music, post it in the crittics lounge and it's a shortcut to recognition! (of course I didn't do this...)
This should be a tutorial 'HOW TO SURVIVE IN THE AGS FORUMS: FOR NOOBS'
EDIT: I forgot to add something
NEVER BE RACIST! OR ANY KIND OF DISCRIMINATIVE....thing.
unless you make it obvious that it's a joke, and the joke should be suttle or/and both sides find it funny.
This thread is way too silly for my taste. You should all be ashamed of yourself for posting such nonsense. Where are the scientific charts and statistics?
No fun allowed.
Quote from: Haddas on Tue 27/11/2007 11:14:45
This thread is way too silly for my taste. You should all be ashamed of yourself for posting such nonsense. Where are the scientific charts and statistics?
(http://ssh.me.uk/img/agsstats.png)
Quote from: InCreator on Tue 27/11/2007 05:37:30
Talker (generic gengen babbler, useless ones)
Though technically I'd be a combination of Game Maker and Talker, your simple dismissal of talkers as being entirely useless is a prime example of the attitude I've noticed time and time again.
I work on my game on and off, because my free time is limited, so most of the time I'm hanging out at the forums to keep contact with the community and show my face, so that when I DO ask a question, I'm not ignored like I was when I was 100% new and unknown.
Without naming anyone, I've had quite a bit of flak, like Nightfable, from the 'established' community members. In that sense this community is much like any other, those who've been around longer and have contributed more are automatically more respected.
But when someone says "You've been registered for 3 years and you haven't finished a game, so you matter nothing to this community", I get annoyed and pissed off, because it gives the distinct feeling of being dismissed. I've stopped posting in C&C because I hardly ever get worthwhile responses, and I stopped asking questions because I hardly ever got worthwhile responses.
The community isn't as 'open' and 'friendly' as some may think. But hell, I'm an outsider anyway, so what does my opinion matter?
I'm used to being an outsider... as sad/pathetic as it may sound, this forum is the friendliest I've ever been into (excluding Mr. Bates' the clock tower forums
I don't buy the forum hospitality (or lack thereof) theory. When I joined the community was much more "lawless"; newcomers could be openly mocked and there was basically only one social clique which you either were a part of or quite painfully outside of. This may sound dramatic, but it is my recollection of it.
Ever since, the community has been gradually easier to grow into.
Also the moderation theory sounds like nonsense. Please direct me to one community of this size with such a small (almost empty) ban list. Most other forums I've been to are subject to very arbitrary policing where moderators administer justice any way it pleases them.
As much as our forums can be complicated (because they have very defined purposes, and can easily fall into disorder) it's not like posting wrong will lead to any severe consequences.
I think it's a question of trends. We're the generation who were young enough to experience these games when they first came, and still young enough to have the time and interest to make our own games. Sure, there are exceptions, and some members are middle aged, but the target audience of AGS consists of young people, but not so young that the age of adventure games died before they were able to play them.
I think the majority of people who initially made this place a community back at the turn of the millenium have all more or less moved on, for various reasons. This is not unnatural, the internet is a lot different these days. Hobbyist adventure making is no longer new and exciting, and I think a lot of people have either grown out of wanting to make games or have come to the conclusion that making a good game is too much work. The standard is considerably higher than it once was.
But yes, when it started out people were using the forums in a more bloggy way, and generally mucking around as for many it was the first community they'd been part of. I think the forums are more of a functional place now, as there are other places to get that 'community' fix. A lot of the friends I've made here over the last six years I socialise with in a more direct way now, outside of the forums, so it's no longer a place to kick about and chat for me. It's no big deal really, it's just the way things change.
Edit: In conclusion, I think people generally are less interested in making games and investing in a community than they once would have been.
Quote from: Pumaman on Mon 26/11/2007 20:14:48
For example, if I was new here, and excited about my game, and posted a Games In Production thread with all the details but one screenshot instead of two, I'd probably get my thread locked with a "READ THE RULES!!" type comment. That'd be pretty offputting and I might well not bother coming back.
Frankly I recall several instances of people being downright hostile to new users, and chasing the new blood away is not healthy for the contributors.
I think that perhaps we are too harsh towards newbies in beginner tech, and maybe also in the GIP. I know the forum rules are clear on that, but perhaps the forum rules need to be relaxed a bit?
Or perhaps the moderators for each individual forum need to rotate to a different forum, so that they don't become jaded on the forum they take care of.
Quote from: Petteri on Tue 27/11/2007 08:47:28
These two threads came to my mind after reading DG's post:
Shoes for Santa Claus' wife (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=23728.0)
Dog pixel art (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=24606.0)
I miss that! Then again, I haven't really read the forum properly in ages, so perhaps there has been more similar threads recently. I just don't find the forum as interesting as it used to be for me anymore.
Before they ended on a serious note, these are examples of threads that if on another forum they'd be locked not because they're bad but because they're so hilarious and perfect and must be preserved AS IS for future generations to see. Especially the Shoes for Santa Claus' wife.
Another thread was the I LOVE MARK LOVEGROVE thread. One big joke that everyone was in on and there was no animosity whatsoever.
I think people here are a little afraid of upsetting everyone else. I've read a lot of threads on here that follow the same pattern: one person will say something to someone else, that someone else will misunderstand and take offense over nothing. A prime example is when someone gets called a "n00b". It's seen as a term of offense when really it's nothing. It's not really a big deal but people treat it like it is.
It's already happened in this thread...
QuoteYou categorize people? It's not enough that they are human beings or whatever, they have to be lumped into set categories defining them by what kind of artistic output they have? It's things like the word n00b that probably need to be dropped from peoples vocabulary because it's such a coined internet term from a long time ago that lumps every new member of the community together in one "You are Shit" category.
No wonder people are leaving if people say things like that. "Here are your set categories. You as a new member are official a n00b well done."
It's like saying "Just because you are new, you are automatically shit." and not only that it is like laughable QUAKE lingo or something. I thought you only heard people talk like that on Counterstrike "lol pwned that n00b." It's so broken.
Really, you're just making a big deal over "n00b", a word that essential means nothing. It's got nothing to do with being "new" or "automatically shit". It's more so that new people often do absurd things. It's part of the nature of being human. And even the oldies who've been here for ages get picked on because they do crazy things. For example, I'm a pretty ripe target for mockery. A very ripe, intelligent and sexy target.
I just think people need to realise that sometimes others will make fun of them, not because we're jerks and hate you, but because all human beings do silly, absurd things that make others laugh now and then. In life, you just have to have thick skin and realise that it's all just lighthearted and nothing personal.
Quote from: InCreator on Tue 27/11/2007 05:37:30
I wouldn't say that forum has gone boring, but game production is dried up indeed.
I've been Critics Lounge resident for 4 years, and this is one place that's gone down. There's no more superb entries, no noticeable quality in entries, and no-one cares to C&C any story or music thread.
I agree, this is mainly why I don't come around much anymore. I was never that active, but I used to love browsing the forums looking at what other people were working on. Not to judge or offend anyone here (I play far too little AGS games for that), but when I occasionally visit the C&C these days, I don't see a lot that inspires me, or makes me say WOW! There are a few exceptions, like the Forgotten Element, Rising Sun, the Blackwell games and an occasional small game, but the problem is they are just too few and far between.
Not that I am not guilty of this either... (TMC going on 4 years in development now I think). Since I'm not actively working on a game most of the time, I don't have a lot to seek info about on the forums. And I'm working in AGS 2.62, so I can't indulge myself in all the wonderful new modules out there. Can't wait until I'm done so I can adopt AGS 3.0.
So let's hope it's just the silence before the storm (like what happened in mainstream games this month).
Didn't Holland get Kane & Lynch, Assassin's Creed, Need for Speed Pro Street, Smackdown 2008, Call of Duty 4, Mass Effect, Crysis, Sim City societies, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario & Sonic at Olympics, Mario Party on DS etc this month? :o
Or did you mean that was the storm? :-X
Yes, the number of post is declining but 5000 new post every month is still healthy in my opinion, and AGS is still my number one stop to hear opinions from all side of the debates and stay in touch with reality and this vast world. The number that interest me the most personally isn't the number of post per month but the number of quality games released every years. The moment it will get pretty low, I'll start worrying.
And while the numbers of quality games might have slightly decreased in the last year, the quality greatly increased, and quality games take more time to produce, we just have to compare the delay between each Ben Jordan games. It seems like it's the spirit of 2003 that's making a come back, back when we collectively had big hopes, great projects but little experience. The epic projects collapsed but after 3 years of short yet completed games, it seems like game makers are confidents and feel they have the experience to take on projects we dreamed of back in 2003.
Also, increase in game quality means our standards also increase. I was much more tolerant with games' quality back when I discovered about AGS in 2002 than I am nowadays. And in such environment, I can understand that it might be intimidating and discouraging to submit a little game and get very few downloads and comments compared to a big name like ATOTK or the Blackwell series.
That being said, I will not deny that I miss the 2005-2006 era, which represent in my opinion the pinacle of AGS games productivity, and I wonder what happened to Buloght, ProgZ, Bernie and the others who made games like Knightsquires, Family Treasure or Dance 'Til You Drop... some of these games might have been small but these games still made my day. I also miss a lot of faces who used to post here a lot, I do hope some of them will find the time to come back during the holidays.
QuoteMove the popular threads back into gen-gen. That way gen-gen stays interesting even when nothing is happening because of the old stalwarts and encourages people to think of interesting new things to chat about.
That would be counter productive. The purpose of the Popular Threads is to give popular threads visibility, in the Gen-Gen these threads would be lost in the flow of new threads and we'd constantly have to search for them. Also, not every forum sections need to be as active as the Gen-Gen. I say we leave the Popular Threads section alone. Same thing with the Adventure Related Talk, no need of merging.
Regarding the decline in C+C and Competitions, could it be linked to the rise of Pixel Joint and similar websites? I mean, why limit yourself to the comments and competition received from a few artists here while you can have all the comments and competition you want on a community entirely dedicated to that?
Quote from: ManicMatt on Tue 27/11/2007 15:52:33
Didn't Holland get Kane & Lynch, Assassin's Creed, Need for Speed Pro Street, Smackdown 2008, Call of Duty 4, Mass Effect, Crysis, Sim City societies, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario & Sonic at Olympics, Mario Party on DS etc this month? :o
Or did you mean that was the storm? :-X
That was the implied storm. :) The silence was in the 6 months before.
And I think Blueskirt has a point. If we put a little more effort into fostering the games in production now instead of remeniscing about past days, maybe people will be motivated more and more new games would show up.
Hear, hear, Andail!
Also:
Blueskirt, why are you talking like I left! And I'm glad that you enjoyed Dance 'Til You Drop! -- very few people have actually ever said they did (and no, this is no ploy to get people chiming in with love and such, just a fact)!
QuoteThere's a few times where I've been insulted and criticized (in not a very good way) by older members and that has made me overly-cautious.
Nightfable, could you provide a single instance of this to me via private message, because I've read nearly every thread you've contributed to and never come across anyone insulting you or your work aside from suggesting changes or improvement, as is natural for the CL.
QuoteNo new rebellious noobs trying to run over every moderator and veteran user. Almost everyone is supertolerant and understanding now, and so even every attempt to provoke mess fails pretty quickly.
And I think this is absolutely wonderful aside from, perhaps, 'supertolerance' when taken to mean people don't venture criticism for fear of the consequences. I think that anyone should be able to have an opposing opinion as long as they are willing to state it in a respectful, non-'random dick' sort of way. You don't need to be asinine or jokey smurfish to get a point across, and it more often clouds the issue and destroys any relevance your viewpoint might have (in addition to inciting more negativity).
Opinions = Good, Dickheadery = Bad.There are only a handful of people who have used this forum that I would consider highly for the Dickheadery award, while a vast majority of you, while different in your own ways, have proven time and again to present your opinions and disagreements in a respectful manner -- and that is very good!
I have been a part of many forums (and been a moderator on most of them) for years now, and I am quite old and tired most of the time. That isn't really important, but what is important follows: of all the forums I have ever moderated/contributed to, AGS has one of the best track records for creative and respectful people. How many forums can you count offhand that have so many people contributing both publicly and behind the scenes to improving both the engine and the library of games? You can make a case that most people just make games for themselves, but we also know that many are making them for the benefit of their peers, and that's like a gift! Grundislav didn't have to wake up one day and say 'Gee, I'd love to make 8 games about Ben Jordan and share them with my friends at AGS and such', but he's still cranking those things out -- and he's far from the only one! There are many people working on games behind the scenes (I'm just one example) who don't really care to use the Production thread to pimp something, but that doesn't mean the games aren't being worked on :).
I think that some of you have the right idea, that the forums are in a constant state of flux from active to inactive, and that it's a natural condition as people move on/are busy/new people arrive. The rest of you could probably benefit from taking a step back, a deep breath, and then try not to make mountains out of molehills.
Quoteone person will say something to someone else, that someone else will misunderstand and take offense over nothing.
Very true DG; as seen in nightfable's recent thread (lo & behold the irony of who it was that upset her! ;)) and then the threads just degenerate into personal battles about what one should or shouldn't have done. Makes for a pile of crap reading thats for sure :P On the whole I still reckon the forums are very lively, very interesting & generally very friendly. The only real thing missing is the bonding aspect it once had. The world has changed & I guess what worked in the past just doesn't quite work now in terms of bonding with people online. I know my internet social skills have almost been wiped out ;) So, where does the bonding on a forum happen? I mean surely people know other people and have friendships with them through the forums, perhaps because of PM's or just helping others out, I don't know. But it's not like IRC where you can just chat your everyday opinions away and (kind of) get to know people.
Before IRC channels people would be more open with their feelings in threads, not just opinions. It's hard to decipher how people really feel on the forum because there's no active way of telling each other, and the majority of threads boil down to onions. I mean opinions. It's funny how once the most active people start using IRC, whether they stay with it or come away from it, they soon become the least active on the forums (posting that is, not doing stuff) - or so it seems to me. If bonding on the forums was pushed a little bit harder I don't think the newbies would feel so intimidated. One of the greatest schemes was the Mentoring thing, I think that gave a lot of new people confidence, but there hasn't really been anything like that for years; unless people are privately mentoring others.
There's a great community spirit here, it's just missing something to hold it all together. And personally I don't think IRC is the glue. More forum related community activities could be good; more topics that help bond people a little better too. Some people will move on, naturally, and some won't be enticed to stay. But I too feel thats down to personal choice. Bar holidays I've managed to visit the forums daily for 6 or so years, simply cos I think they're great, and the peoples very interesting! But we certainly are missing some key bonding schemes these days.. ???
Now that Yufster and DGMacphee have posted in GenGen again, I retract my original premise as the forums are now interesting again.
And as for IRC: when is the werewolves game coming back? That was a game when you could REALLY make people feel unwelcome and victimized.
On a bright note:
This could be the first day in months with over 200 posts! (This is post 198...)
I just dug my hole even deeper with that thread didn't I?....
Darn.
I don't think there's a hole at all. And if there is, the only hole is the hole itself. Or your concern about it. Really, most people have probably made posts way more stupid than that on some occasion, but everything evens out over time, and in the end only the true asses will look like asses. Unless they chicken out.
Yeah, I wouldn't worry overmuch about it. I mean, I admit I thought it was a weird thing to post, but it pales in comparison to the time I witnessed someone's announcement on an IRC channel that his room was, in fact, on fire.
Quote from: Petteri on Tue 27/11/2007 08:47:28
These two threads came to my mind after reading DG's post:
Dog pixel art (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=24606.0)
I miss that! Then again, I haven't really read the forum properly in ages, so perhaps there has been more similar threads recently. I just don't find the forum as interesting as it used to be for me anymore.
I know that thread is rather old, but I'm curious as to why it was locked like that. It looks like it was just people having fun and being creative, I'm curious as to why something like that would have been locked? And if that sort of thing regularly happens in the Critics Lounge, could it be why people are more reluctant to post there nowadays?
QuoteI think that perhaps we are too harsh towards newbies in beginner tech, and maybe also in the GIP. I know the forum rules are clear on that, but perhaps the forum rules need to be relaxed a bit?
I think that the rules are ok, but that the interpretation of them should be more flexible.
For example, if somebody writes a perfectly reasonable post in GiP, but only includes one screenshot instead of two, should they be punished with a thread locking and "READ THE RULES" reply, or should they simply be encouraged to add another screenshot whenever they are able to?
As with all laws, forum rules should be applied with discretion and not just blanket enforced on every minor technical breach.
QuoteOr perhaps the moderators for each individual forum need to rotate to a different forum, so that they don't become jaded on the forum they take care of.
You guys reading this that are moderators, are you getting tired of moderating the same old forum every day? Would you like to change around or have a break from it? What are your opinions on what has been said here about over-moderation?
QuoteI think people here are a little afraid of upsetting everyone else. I've read a lot of threads on here that follow the same pattern: one person will say something to someone else, that someone else will misunderstand and take offense over nothing. A prime example is when someone gets called a "n00b". It's seen as a term of offense when really it's nothing. It's not really a big deal but people treat it like it is.
This is often a problem on the internet though, due to there not being a tone of voice or facial expression to work out that the other person is joking. It can be made worse when two people post in a thread insulting each other, but where actually they know each other well and are just playing around -- to everyone else, this can look like a fight which a do-gooder can then try to put a stop to, and the whole thing descends into a farce.
Anyway, let me repeat this question:
Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?
Compared to other forums I've been active in, this one has started as very lively, yet with an underlying hint of professionality- there has always been a focus on games here, surrounded by juicy bits of more mundane threads. It's true, it has been a bit dry recently, and I blame it on the increasing amount of commercial AGS games.
I wish everyone who sets out to make some money with his games all the luck in the world. I haven't purchased any commercial AGS game yet, but I've read the reviews and followed the threads: Good on yer all, you've really produced quality.
But pushing a freeware game-making engine more into the commercial regions, well, that leaves a taste, doesn't it? It attracts more newcomers I guess, but it also causes freelancers like myself to compare their work to games like Al Emmo, Blackwell, you name it.
The new 3.0 release is another factor I think; it looks great, it has many useful improvements, but it feels so much different- at least for a while.
So surely there's a change, but that's just natural. I'm a long time member and qualify mostly as a "talker"- I do not prefer any forum very much; I post where I see fit. Sometimes Beginner's Help, sometimes C&C, sometimes WIP... I've got a good deal of posts on my slate, and in all the time, this is interesting, there has only ever been one guy who really p**d me off. We had a bit of a row, but that's life. What really anchors me here is the fact that some people know me, remember me, occasionally PM or cite me, and vice versa. It's a community and a friendly place to be. I can't say I've liked it better a year or so earlier.
@Nightfable: Do not take that threat of yours too seriously, and please don't let it shy you away! Would be a shame to lose a great writer and artist just because of one little tight spot.
@CJ: I have always understood the GIP rules as a sensible guideline; a way to ensure people post only after having build up some material. Two shots and a summary really are not too much to ask, I think.
I don't think harsh moderation is a problem as long as the rules are fair. And they are, IMO.
Barging in a forum, skipping the rules, posting for the sake of it or out of boredom/laziness is simply annoying. I'm aware that I can get pretty agitated at people who act like this, but sometimes the level of "manual? Duh, why have a beginner's forum then" is way too high for my taste.
These forums are well policed, the signatures' height is limited to some 50px and the n00bs (yes, the n00bs) who act like rules are for everybody else are greeted with mockery and occasional harshness. And that's exactly what I love about these forums.
QuoteBlueskirt, why are you talking like I left!
Not like you left. In the last 2 years you've probably been working a lot on Drug Bust in the background, but I miss the short yet awesome games, like the OROW, that you and several other talented makers drowned us with (in a good kind of way) back in 2005-2006. :)
Holidays are coming, I wonder if it would be a good moment for another OROW competition.
Quote from: Pumaman on Tue 27/11/2007 22:10:00
Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?
I personally think you should keep them separate. So what if the GF is having a slow patch. I'm sure it'll pick up again and I think it's important to have one for everything-but-adventure seeing as the whole of the rest of the forum is about AGS and Adventure gaming.
Quote from: Pumaman on Tue 27/11/2007 22:10:00
Anyway, let me repeat this question:
Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?
I imagine the possible issue would be that adventure-related threads might more quickly turn into non-adventure-related threads, perhaps to the dismay of people who treasure a sanctuary of adventure-related chat. I for one would not mind, though, I think. (And I really liked the dog thread and disagree with its being locked.)
I think these forums are still relevant and enjoyable...just a little dry lately.
#AGS is also in danger of wheezing its last.
Reading back over the IRC quotes from yesteryear, it seemed to once be a genuinely fun place to hang out. Indeed, even though I came to it rather late, it was still fairly enjoyable up to a year or so ago.
Then everyones chat gland seemed to dry up, and it's become a bit of an IRC dustbowl. :-\
I like AR chat sepparate!!!
Heya DG
Quote from: Pumaman on Tue 27/11/2007 22:10:00Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?
No, keep them separate! I love to visit the AR Chat forum, but I sometimes give the General forum a miss if I don't have enough time.
Well the adventure related is pretty much the 5th choise forum for me, if theres nothing else to talk about, or if the others are dry, I go there. I wouldnät mind it being combined with the gengen, however, I wouldn't want it to clutter up the gengen page or the other way around. One might say we don't get that many threads anyway, to make one disappear too soon or so, but still.
I've seen the pages change quite a bit after a week of absence, which in my case is prettty scarce, but nevertheless. And I'm not sure if that means we have enough posts thread-wise, people do start them every now and then, or that we don't enjoy posting in one thread more than once. I certainly do not. With this I did the exception of reposting due to the vagueness of my first post, and after reading through this, realising how interesting this actually is.
I usually read long serious posts, threads, opinions, but occasionally they just start repeating each other, and I'm quite used to people's opinions here, so mostly I just have to see the avatar, and I know what's coming, and basically we've had a couple of threads of people contemplating on an issue no-one disagrees on. It gets very boring after a while, or as to say, 10 answers. Well then someone jokes about a bit, and either it goes off topic or everyone ignores them. Basically I see myself writing under a subject that I want to discuss, but only to get answers by certain few people that are the most active at the moment. And that reverses the need to post, kind of when you already know what the answer is going to be. I think the forums lack the moment of surprise nowadays. I thought, well, people are willing to fight over drugs and God, over things that are completely opinion based, but ifsomeone wrote a political thread about the president of Russia for example, what kind of feedback would it get. Well, it didn't. I guess no-one cares enough, or people realise, that the internet knowhow isn't all that there is to it, but opinion-rant is a refreshing, yet frustrating way of making time go. Well, not for me.
I just started a thread, trying to find out how many of us were really willing to read the first post if it was longer than some few lines and then how many were really willing to contribute to it, no matter how obvious or boring they found the subject. Well we had our fun, I see it died pretty soon without bringing in any discussion really, and I'm really diappointed in the people who never even cared enough to read the post without first seeing a short brief explanation of what they're reading. Well, the forums are like a lesser IRC, people are not reading a book or a newspaper but jsut comparing a few ideas at haste, and so are the AGS ones, mostly used for actual need, or to find a solution to real issues.
As with the moderator issue, I've been quite happy with the mods here. I realise that sometimes it would have been fun to go about joking in one thread, but then, who would benefit of it? Yet, i don't think that that is the main point why we come here. As Petteri linked, those two threads were a great joy, and just reading them is a joy itself. So sometimes I find myself wondering, why should they be closed, as in to stop the fun. It's like coming to pick your kids back home from the kindergarden, still knowing they'll be going back there tomorrow to continue the same fun in some other way. I think that's exactly what we need. Provocative subjects and places to really have fun. Like a just for fun -forum. I know I know; it would draw useless posts and a lot of meanindless stuff, but it would still keep us bored of life wanderers here and not at some other forums. It doesn't all need to be that serious, does it? The games aren't, as far as I know (and I don't, sry). But I am under the impression, that I am the only one trying to make a serious game with no humour anywhere, just a political message, whereas most people use games to like separate them from the moment, just for a while. Why couldn't the forums be like that too?
I had to kill that shoe thread by posting a serious picture. I just went back and looked at it, and they were all really funny until you get to my post. ;)
Way to go Domino.
Reading this has reminded me of this thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25777.0) which makes me miss Helm all the ever more.
Helm should come back, even if it's only for Christmas!
Quote from: TheJBurger on Wed 28/11/2007 00:43:09
Reading this has reminded me of this thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25777.0) which makes me miss Helm all the ever more.
Helm should come back, even if it's only for Christmas!
Hahaha... That guy sounds like a real stellar dude.
Where did he go anyway? Did he just vanish?
DGMacphee: Didn't you used to have an eyepatch, or am I thinking of someone else who used to haunt these blue walls?
I think what we're missing is antics. It seemed like in ye old days there were plenty of people making joke threads and such. When the community got big it started to get too much. I think most of the people who were here were around the same age, and the same maturity level. Most of those people have grown through pivotal parts of their lives and have lost interest.
I don't think it's really up to the old ones to give this forum a sense of community. We've seen all the posts before, including this one several times, and it's hard to get re-interested in things already discussed. I also just plain don't have the desire to read as much from these forums as I used to. It's not so much a lack of interest, because I still read things fairly regularly, but it's a lack of time.
I also am not really interested in meeting new people. That doesn't mean I don't like to meet people, but there have been so many people that have come and gone that it's hard for me to remember who's who (of the newer members). Now when I read a persons post, I don't remember if I like what they generally have to say or not.
The only way to rekindle that sense of community is to go to Mittens events. I know I've only been to one, but I had a blast and really felt like I connected to my fellow mitteneers.
While I may occasionally feel that the forums have changed, I had the same feeling four or five years ago, too. I think it's more of our perception than anything. In your youth you tend to look up to people who've been around longer than you. When you've grown a little longer, your respect for them might be there, but now it's there as equals (Assuming you've matured nicely). Slowly you start noticing that the people that you came in with and those before are dwindling, and you don't have anyone to look up to. The new crowd seems to have their own clicks, and you just can't relate to them anymore. It's not that any of them aren't nice, it's just their in a different stage of life then you are.
There have of course been some changes. The amount of forum members now versus way back when. The average age group is probably higher. The amount of games is increased. The one thing that hasn't seemed to change, which I think does need to be updated, is our moderators. I think our moderators have done a fine job, but I'd like to see some newer blood. And I also still can't understand why c leks is still a moderator. I haven't heard from him in over three years, it seems.
But regardless of change or perception, I still come back here and browse around. I don't always post, I don't always read everything in a thread before I post (like now). However, almost everyday I make my way here, and in a couple years I'll be looking back fondly at these years. I don't think I'll ever leave the forums completely. I've spent a nice chunk of my life here, and while I don't tend to throw the word love around often, I love this community.
-MillsJROSS
Maybe the forums would gain traffic if a little something got GPL'ed...
hmmm....
;D
One can only hope.
Well we got plenty of new threads since yesterday, which worked fine! The forums seem much more alive now...
Excellent job SSH!
Able to leap tall buildings
Faster than a speeding haggis
Able to revitalise a forum with a single thread.... it's Super Scottish Hero!
Quote from: lo_res_man on Wed 28/11/2007 03:59:05
DGMacphee: Didn't you used to have an eyepatch, or am I thinking of someone else who used to haunt these blue walls?
That's Squinky
Anyone heard from Naranjas, he hasn't even logged in for over a year, hope he's still alive
Quote from: Pumaman
Anyway, let me repeat this question:
Would anyone have any objections with merging the Adventure-related Chat forum into the General forum due to its low post count, or should they remain separate?
I think it's better to keep it separate or it's going to get lost in the general threads and dry completely.
Quote from: ambientcoffeecup on Wed 28/11/2007 01:46:46
Quote from: TheJBurger on Wed 28/11/2007 00:43:09
Reading this has reminded me of this thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25777.0) which makes me miss Helm all the ever more.
Helm should come back, even if it's only for Christmas!
Hahaha... That guy sounds like a real stellar dude.
Hello, this thread was shown to me in a post-AGS irc channel where good people hang out. This in itself should probably tell you most of what you need to know on why the forums are degrading in quality, but here's some more words.
That thread was I think in response to something or another, not just out of the blue, and AGA is my friend, I don't want to keel him. I think I was making a point, ironically about the quality of threads on this forum and such. If I am to remembered for anyone contribution of mine to the forums I'd rather it not be the one (or any other 'whacky, lol!' thing I might have contributed to), as I've talked with many here about things that matter much more, and I hope I was not a negative influence for anyone. We've talked politics, philosophy, game design theory, and to this day I know of no other international forum that had so many bright, polite and willing users from all parts of the opinion spectrum participating in relatively civil manner. The adventure game nerds are good people generally.
Here's a breakdown of the situation that might be useful for you guys wondering what's happening to your forums: The reason I don't post here anymore is combinatorial. I was treated very unfairly by a number of users on the last thread I participated on and many of them were old guys (which I don't say as to denote awesomity to their tenure but to say that they have known who I was and how I ment what I said as they have had lived with me under the same e-roof for many years). This made it clear that there was an underlying resentment against me harboured by some people, probably because of my posting style and attitude, which is understandable I guess, I don't expect everyone to like me. But what happens when almost nobody interesting likes you anymore or considers you an asset to the forum? Don't forget, I, like many oldbies have been here many years and I talk to most interesting people I met and befriended from here on other places, IRC channels, msn and the like. Most of the people that post here now, I don't know. So when I talk to them and they're uninteresting, indifferent or hostile because they don't like how I write, then I begin thinking 'what am I taking from this place anymore?'. The answer was 'not much and nearing nothing' so I departed. I left here because of lack of appreciation. Community allegience will only take you so far, I have made other places of my internet my home in the last 7 years.
Most other people whose disappearance you're now lamenting because they were 'such characters' and 'sure made you laugh' were also people with simple social aspirations that wanted to be treated fairly and with respect, and they get that respect and friendship by the good people they've networked in private from here and elsewhere while they've been around. The general forum is a meet-and-greet point of people and once they move on to their blogs and msns and ircs it just doesn't get a lot of quality material pumped straight to it, it becomes more and more dependent on drivel nobody really cares about. Forums that have no purpose are dying. Pixelation (which I run) will constantly thrive because it's about a thing: pixel art and the betterment of it. The AGS parts of this forum will also thrive, and newbie tech questions will never dry up. But the gen gen is an outmodded concept, if your idea of it rests on that it will have interesting discussions
about whichever thing with all these 'colorful characters' that will constantly entertain you with their 'antics'. If you look at gen gen and find it uninteresting, it is because you look at it like a tv channel that provides ever-new material for you to entertain yourselves. But it's not. It's a community of complex people that seek to fulfill their social needs and communicate on a pleasant level. These people, if they find it increasingly difficult to do this here (and the reasons are: grumpy old curmudgeons, oversaturation of the same discussions, influx of uninteresting people, downright ungratefulness and disrespect for people as people, not internet nicknames) they will go away, they will take what is good from here and put it on their msn and that's just fine.
I suggest you go to a different forum, meet new people, put them on your msn and fulfill your desires for meaningful communication that way. This will give you a fresh point of view of your good old trusty internet home here.
Oh, Helm, that makes me sad... But well, I don' t want you to be in a place that is unpleasant for you, I love you too much (Yup, I love this guy).
Hope to go on chatting in msn or Irc if we coincide there, and seeing you in mittens.
***Hugs, my friend***
Just to clarify, I wasn't being sarcastic. I actually did find that post hilarious.
EDIT: Haha! This post was suppossed to be in "Teacher insulting Islam or something" by Meowster. Never keep two windows with different threads opened, and go to eat before posting!
You amuse me. It's good. Me likey.
Quote from: Helm on Wed 28/11/2007 10:27:12
Hello, this thread was shown to me in a post-AGS irc channel where good people hang out. This in itself should probably tell you most of what you need to know on why the forums are degrading in quality
You mean it's degraded because a bunch of oldbies are snooty enough to have an elitist playground where n00bs and other undesirables (like inveterate acro players) are not invited? ;)
Quote from: Helm on Wed 28/11/2007 10:27:12
That thread was I think in response to something or another, not just out of the blue, and AGA is my friend, I don't want to keel him. I think I was making a point, ironically about the quality of threads on this forum and such. If I am to remembered for anyone contribution of mine to the forums I'd rather it not be the one (or any other 'whacky, lol!' thing I might have contributed to), as I've talked with many here about things that matter much more, and I hope I was not a negative influence for anyone.
Forgive me, I had no intention of doing any such thing. It was just one of many silly examples of threads created by "oldies" who seemed to no longer post here. I am aware of all your other posting attributes, and I respect every one. I was just sad to see you have departed from these forums since I have always enjoyed and respected your posts to a great degree, even when I don't agree with you (although I would never join in the conversation).
Now I'm just sad. :(
Everything that Helm has pointed out is more or less true.
Which is why I'm sad.
The main points of interest to me on this site are AGS Technical to see how AGS is developing, see how people are dealing with problems that I might have [or teaching me ways to think about problems that can help avoid them] Critic's lounge because I enjoy seeing people's art and sometimes feel that I can help, GiP and Completed Games for obvious reasons. This should be the main focus of the forum in my opinion.
I personally feel that, if anything, the sprite jams and animation challenges should go, anything that doesn't contribute towards making a game. MAGs, OROWs, code challenges, stuff like this goes towards the ultimate purpose of the forum. Yes, sprite jams are fun and all but it's a distraction. If you still want to make sprites but don't think you want to make a game... Really, that's what Pixelation is for. You'll get a ton more advice and exposure for your art on pixelation than anyone here can give you.
A long time ago when I first joined I made 2 flash movies called Digi-Helm and Digi-CJ. I started making a Digi-Rodekill and Helm said something along the lines of "Man, I'd rather see a game than in-jokes for the community..." and he was right. So I made my alien test game and then 6 Day Assassin after CommaToes started the hour game event. I made games and contributed to the community and made friends that way, not from having debates in gen gen about how man is like any other animal and the concept of self is not sacred [granted, it's tough to make friends with that world view!].
Gen gen can stick around and you can hang out and do whatever, but the rest of the forum may be served well by being refocused to the point of AGS the program. To use it and produce a game.
Get more people making games or at least spending more time critiquing/praising finished games than talking about general general stuff. In my slightly hypocritical opinion!
Well said MrColossal. And I shall get on with making games as soon as NaNoWriMo is over. Honest. ;D
For the record, when I came across these forums for the first time, I was absolutely delighted. There was such a mix of interesting people with differing views, and differing ways of expressing those views. I did sense a bit of cliqueness and a bit of an anti-n00b sentiment, but not in a hugely negative way. It always seemed to me, that those who were sensible and willing to learn were treated with courtesy, and those who were not, received some light-hearted mockery. I don't think I've ever had a negative response to any of my posts. But, there was always a natural caution around new people - are they going to hang around, or just post several excited threads and then get bored? So, I was treated nicely by everyone, but I doubt many could say you know me.
Anyway, I disappeared for a year or so (damn addictive MMORPGs), and since I've returned, it just doesn't have quite the same spark. Though it may just simply be my perception of things has changed (been through a lot in the past couple of years). I agree with Mods though, it does seem like people don't really express their feelings much here any more. Sure a thread of interesting opinions is very nice and all, but what made it great was the really interesting people who expressed themselves as they did so. May not seem it from my posts, but I love making bad puns, non-PC jokes, and lewd comments when I can get away with it, and I really don't mean anything by it. But it seems like there's a lot of over-tolerance now, and I don't think I, or any others with similar humour would get away with such, and its a shame. I always like those threads that hovered on the edge of descending into flames, because people were expressing themselves as well as their opinions. I came here to talk to and get to know people with a mutual interest. Can't get to know anyone if they don't put a bit of themselves into their post.
Addressing MrColossal's point: The point of this forum is that it is a place for people who make games to chat, is it not? And regardless of whether someone releases a game or not, it seems there are a lot less people actually working on games, but a lot more people mooching around and talking about them. More than once I've seen someone say they don't make or have any intention of making games. So why are they here? No offence to those people but there are plenty of adventure gaming forums which might suit them better. And ffs, if someone takes that personally I will spank them, it's just a suggestion!
Erm, enough rambling. :) I'll just get back into my lurking cave. ;)
Pelican
P.S. When I say make, I mean make solo OR contribute to a team effort.
P.P.S. Keep Adventure and Gen Gen separate. I like it when a nice discussion of adventure game mechanics gets going in Adventure, like a few threads recently, and would prefer it separate to the varied discussions that go on in gen gen.
Quote
I personally feel that, if anything, the sprite jams and animation challenges should go, anything that doesn't contribute towards making a game. MAGs, OROWs, code challenges, stuff like this goes towards the ultimate purpose of the forum. Yes, sprite jams are fun and all but it's a distraction. If you still want to make sprites but don't think you want to make a game... Really, that's what Pixelation is for. You'll get a ton more advice and exposure for your art on pixelation than anyone here can give you.
I have always thought that all entries in the Competitions and Activities forum should have some type of Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org) license that would allow them to be used in future AGS games in their current or modified forms. They could be collected and published on AGS resource pages or websites for use by would be game designers.
(http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by/3.0/us/88x31.png)
(http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/)
Quote
I personally feel that, if anything, the sprite jams and animation challenges should go, anything that doesn't contribute towards making a game. MAGs, OROWs, code challenges, stuff like this goes towards the ultimate purpose of the forum. Yes, sprite jams are fun and all but it's a distraction. If you still want to make sprites but don't think you want to make a game... Really, that's what Pixelation is for. You'll get a ton more advice and exposure for your art on pixelation than anyone here can give you.
Apart from what Rick says, in truth it is a brilliant way to practice. Why not really? At least, for me it is a major part of the forums, and although I don't take part too often (not anymore anyways) I sure enjoy watching the entries. And I do think that people do get back feedback, even from teh jams and competitions, etc.
I feel that the Sprite Jams and Animation compos do have their place here... everyone needs a break sometimes, and at least this way they're still practicing their skills ;)
My personal experience: I lurked here for a few months before I joined, and the main reasons I eventually registered was 1)the CL (because it looked helpful), and 2)the Sprite Jams (because they looked fun). I didn't really have any serious notions of making a game then, but after I had done a few SJs I received encouragement from a few members to make a game, started thinking about it more, and eventually did. Like MrC said, now that I generally concentrate more on pixelart then game sprites, I visit more pixel-oriented sites, but I think the SJs and other activities make the forums more welcoming to newbies and might get them interested in game creation :)
Thanks for that post Mr Colossal. It really set my mind back in my skull for a reason since I stopped using AGS probably for almost 6 months now.:-X I forgot why I was here in the first place because I wasn't making any more games due to a number of random reasons that turn out to not be any real reasons at all. I think I'll try to pick up one of those random concepts that is floating in my head and try to put it together instead of procrastinating until AGS 3.0 comes out.
I haven't made or worked on any games with AGS. I do not plan too in the near future.
I work full time, and then come home and enjoy reading the forums.
Can i still stay here? Please say i can. :)
QuoteMore than once I've seen someone say they don't make or have any intention of making games. So why are they here? No offence to those people but there are plenty of adventure gaming forums which might suit them better. And ffs, if someone takes that personally I will spank them, it's just a suggestion!
Not being interested in making a game doesn't mean we have no knowledges or ideas about game designing. It doesn't mean we have no ideas of what we liked/disliked and want to see improved/corrected in future games. It doesn't mean that we aren't interested in taking part in the giant discussions and debates that will determine the direction this community will venture next, which boundary will be pushed forward next.
And this forum also happen to the best place to compliment the game makers' work and a great place to discuss about the games themselves without falling into an annoying "AGS SUCKS!" argument. And before you spank me, no offenses were taken, and I do plan to make a game one of those day, or at least die trying. ;)
Helm: As long you are happy it's all that matter. I know I will miss your intelligent, insightful opinions and advices regarding game design and adventure games in general.
Quote from: Blueskirt on Thu 29/11/2007 02:04:39
Not being interested in making a game doesn't mean we have no knowledges or ideas about game designing. It doesn't mean we have no ideas of what we liked/disliked and want to see improved/corrected in future games. It doesn't mean that we aren't interested in taking part in the giant discussions and debates that will determine the direction this community will venture next, which boundary will be pushed forward next.
True. But it does seem like some people aren't even interested in the actual game making process, they're just lurking around waiting for new games to be released. If there really were that many people interested in discussing game design wouldn't there be a lot more activity in Adventure talk? If CJ is considering merging it with gen gen... doesn't say much for the volume of posts. Still, I can understand that a lot of stuff has been talked over before and there's nothing more to add to the debate (like GUIs etc.). I guess my point was that I want to see more talk about making games than playing them.
Quote from: Blueskirt on Thu 29/11/2007 02:04:39And before you spank me, no offenses were taken, and I do plan to make a game one of those day, or at least die trying. ;)
Awww... but I like spanking. :'(
There are people who "just" play games who are very helpful in the hints and tips forum. I think it would not be fair to exclude them from the AGS community either formally or by some kind of elitism. This is one example of how AGS is more than just game making.
Believe me, I'm not advocating any form of elitism. I'm just wondering why there are so many people on a game-making forum who are not interested in the game making process. That's all. Apologies if I sound like I'm telling everyone to bugger off, believe me I'm not! I'm simply making an observation, not suggesting a course of action. Personally, I would like to see more people interested in and talking about the game-making process, but I'm not saying they don't have a right to be here if they are not.
The AGS forums are not elitist or unfriendly, certainly by comparison with this shooting-down-in-flames (http://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=4294&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=70)
Firstly, I rarely post. This topic did hold my attention for long enough to warrant a response, though.
Let me explain the reasons for my lack of forumage. I decided to stop visiting the forums on a regular basis, due to the various inane topics and stupid posters in the past. I'm not blaming anyone in particular, and I'm the first to admit that those stupid posts were sometimes met with equally dumb responses on my part. So I decided to leave until the situation improved.
I suspect I wasn't the only member to follow that course of action. This is my theoretical reason to the decline in posts-per-day.
As for the drop in the game related board? We have a number of factors here:
1. Generally higher proportion of sensible users, meaning less people starting unnecessary threads like "What games have you played?" or "I like this game, tell me you like it too". You all know the type. You see the title and think "Oh dear, not another one..."
2. Most discussions on games and game theory and whatnot has already taken place. We discussed all the aspects of games at sometimes great length. The opinions have been said before, for both sides of the various fences. If a topic on say, GUIs, came up today, most people would think to themselves "Oh, I've answered that before, my opinion's the same as last time."
3. The culmination of the previous 2 points is one simple thing. The forum's "Search" tool. The answer is there, and most of us have the commonsense and foresight to be able to use it.
The game related thread will most likely go back up in postings, it just needs a few really good debates to get people actively thinking about the games again, instead of just making/playing/whatevering them. It's not a lack of posters, it's the posters we have become somewhat stagnant.
As to the folk who don't make games, that are on here. I'll hold my hands up and admit I've not made anything so far. The Critic's Lounge has been no end of help in the past, and it's allowed me to improve myself before I make a game. I still plan to do something, but it's still a long term plan. When I've got more drive and creativity to set that in motion, I know I'll be back here posting in the Tech and Critic boards as much as is necessary.
Note: If we are still plagued with inane posts and stupid members, disregard my comments. I followed link to here, and didn't read the other topic titles.
I was just checking the member stats, and there are about 36 pages of people with 0 posts. I wonder why they would sign up for the forums and not post at all.
That is a lot of 0's.
Maybe we should offer them some cash and prizes to post. :)
I still believe that the AGS community is stronger than ever despite the lack of new posts.
Domino
I don't really see how they were unfriendly to you, SSH. They just pretty much made it clear they weren't able/willing to do anything unless CJ contacts them first. Or was your post meant to be jokey?
Quote
I don't really see how they were unfriendly to you, SSH.
I'm sorry but their reason for not wanting to talk to him about this are just pure rubbish. The AGS license terms make no claim or restrictions on what is produced by the AGS editor. To assert that they can't even talk about the technical issues involved in implementing SSH's idea unless AGS is GPL'd is pure rubbish and a poor excuse for lunacy. They treated Andrew like he was a 15 year old who wouldn't know any better; he is offended because he did know better as anyone with the slightest bit of technical knowledge would.
Sorry, SSH, but I have to agree with you this time, even if you do wear US flag as pajamas to bed at night. ;D
[edit]
spelling
QuoteI wonder why they would sign up for the forums and not post at all.
To easily see which thread received new posts since one's last visit. A must for any self-respecting lurker.
Quote
I wonder why they would sign up for the forums and not post at all.
Well maybe they feel a bit intimidated but since we have proclaimed ourselves the friendliest lot on the internet it's hard to imagine why they would feel this way. :=
I think this is a good example of too harsh moderation:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=33075.0
Ok, it's a parody thread, maybe it should have been posted in a different subforum, but I found it quit funny, why close it immediately?
Quote from: Domino on Fri 30/11/2007 01:58:35
I was just checking the member stats, and there are about 36 pages of people with 0 posts. I wonder why they would sign up for the forums and not post at all.
Spambots?
with the 40 question quiz, I'm not sure, although I don't know in general...
But I've never seen any spam here (apart from those great porn PMs) and well, it's a small forum which doesn't invite much interest anyway...
Quote from: JimmyShelter on Sat 01/12/2007 13:26:27
I think this is a good example of too harsh moderation:
I concur.
I saw something similar yesternight in the Beginner Tech forum. Somebody asked a noobish question, somebody else answered it, and then a mod locked the topic stating that question was not allowed to be asked, and kindly RTFM. It seems unnecessary to do that if the question was already answered.
Why not posting it in another subforum, in a first way? I don' t concur; "Moderatorism" was ok here, IMO. I didn' t find it funny, either... I am curious about Grundislav' s opinion, though...
Just locking a topic, in my opinion, is generally a bad idea. Move it to a subforum where it'd fit, as it's obviously not meant in a harmful way (to the community/forum).
I felt the same way when I saw it was locked with just a "never do this again" message.
Maybe not harsh, but unnecessarily "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" afai'm concerned.
Quote
Somebody asked a noobish question, somebody else answered it, and then a mod locked the topic stating that question was not allowed to be asked, and kindly RTFM.
Since I was that moderator, I feel I should address this. The rules in BTQ are pretty clear on RTM-type questions:
Quote from: BTQ Read Before Posting thread
A lot of beginners' questions on this forums have to do with very simple things, and most often it can be found in the main manual itself. So don't get upset with us if we simply tell you to read the manual and lock your thread.
...
From now on, if any of us are reading a thread that has an obvious answer and if we can tell that you haven't read any of the rules or the resources below, we will simply lock it. We shouldn't have to clean up after you guys if you very well know where your topic should go and what it should (and shouldn't) contain.
If a threadstarter doesn't seem to have read the manual/BFAQ/forums, the thread will be locked. This isn't descriminating against newcomers, it'd be the same for anyone. It just happens that newcomers are more likely to ask those kinds of questions.
IIRR, the rules used to say 'we will delete without warning' -
that was harsh, and encouraged further needless posts (re-asking the question, and asking where the original thread went). With a lock, the poster gets their answer, it's more likely someone searching in the future will find their answer, and useless threads can't be revived and drop off the first page. What's unfair about that? Without a 'don't do this again' post the poster mightn't realise WHY they've been locked, which would seem more like arbitary and unfair overmoderation, IMO.
If another forum seems more approriate, of course it'll be moved there, but some excessively n00bish questions (n00b to differentiate from newb, which we all were once) just don't belong anywhere, as far as I'm concerned.
My avatar is cooler than yours, Ashen.
But I was using it first, so I win. (Anyway, mine's more mysterious looking, and therefore cooler. Double win :))
:'(
Wait, does making the other person cry mean "mega win for me", or have I lost now?
These rules are too confusing. Let's just agree that Dexter kicks ass and share the avatar, shall we?
(I like the alternating Dexters down the sides the last few posts. Awesome, and kind of creepy.)
QuoteI think this is a good example of too harsh moderation:
I'd agree as well. I'm going to have a chat to the moderators about our current moderation policy.
QuoteWith a lock, the poster gets their answer, it's more likely someone searching in the future will find their answer, and useless threads can't be revived and drop off the first page.
But why lock the thread? All it means is that they can't ask any follow-up questions in the same thread and end up having to start another thread to do so.
The other thing is the psychological effect of opening a forum and seeing half the threads on the first page being locked. This is quite offputting and perhaps gives out the wrong signal about the type of forum that we are.
All I'm saying is that in my opinion we should only lock a thread if it's getting out of control, and not just because the original question has been answered.
Just for the Tech Forum : is it possible to have a 'Solved' 'Thumb up-shapped' lock? It will have a way less repulsive effect, and keep the forum clean.
Nacho / Ashen : both of your last spring avatar matched you better.
I would say 90% of what keeps me active in a forum community is the ability to have a joke around and feel I can say or do anything that I could around any of my real-life friends, within acceptable reason. I have to admit that over-moderation is the single biggest reason I tend to avoid AGS forums for anything other than update posts or technical questions.
Disclaimer: I am not pointing the finger. Repeat. Not.
Taking the GiP thread as an example: Most of the threads I can see are locked by Darth Mandarb.
Yet, the board seems to have three moderators. So I have the following questions...
1. Is Darth Mandarb just a locking machine?
2. Are the other mods MIA? Or too nice to hand out locks?
3. Do so many threads need to be locked?
In my opinion:
1. 99% of the time Darth's locks seem fair. Some of them can be a bit terse, but lets be honest...How many times can one person reiterate the board policies without cracking?
2. I have no answer to this. I just rarely, if ever, see any name other than Darth Mandarb's at the ass-end of a GiP lock.
3. This is a matter of opinion. Though, various reasons why aside, I would say yes.
Both AR and CL survive with a single moderator. I'll admit these are less problematic boards, and more or less only need one mod. But still...
It seems General Discussion is randomly modded by whoever happens to be in the vicinity at the time, since it's designated mod hasn't been around since 2005.
I think we need a clarification of who is responsible for what. Locked topics should at least contain a post from the moderator who locked it; if not stating why they locked it, then at least putting a face to the lock.
I'm grateful for the time mods put into the forums, though, as it's never an easy job.
Yeah Darth should have moved the spoof game thread to somewhere else really...
I can see that if I'd got my game on the Gip first page and some joke pushes it off the page and takes some attention away I might be a tad miffed. Sorry Voss! (I don't have the keys to type his proper name in here..)
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sat 01/12/2007 20:52:40
1. Is Darth Mandarb just a locking machine?
2. Are the other mods MIA? Or too nice to hand out locks?
3. Do so many threads need to be locked?
In my opinion:
1. 99% of the time Darth's locks seem fair. Some of them can be a bit terse, but lets be honest...How many times can one person reiterate the board policies without cracking?
2. I have no answer to this. I just rarely, if ever, see any name other than Darth Mandarb's at the ass-end of a GiP lock.
3. This is a matter of opinion. Though, various reasons why aside, I would say yes.
Hehe! I'd have locked this thread LONG ago!! Kidding ;)
I tend to be the only one that moderates that board. Snake shows up from time to time though he's far more lenient than I am. I don't even know who Nellie is.
I'm a pretty cut'n'dry kind of moderator really. There are rules, if they are broken I lock. If they are "grey" areas (like the second screenie is a menu or something) I will post a warning to read the rules and update, if they don't comply, lock goes the weasel.
Sure, I can be a bit terse from time to time but (as LimpingFish commented on) considering the number of
idiots people that just can't seem to read the
very simple rules before posting it's amazing I keep my cool at all sometimes! All-in-all (personally) I think I do a pretty damn good job at it.
The alternative is a bunch of "I'm makeing a game! It's gonna be teh awesomes!!1!!" threads with no information, no screenshots, nothing. Speaking for myself personally, I wouldn't want to post a thread in there with my actual "in production" game if it were like that 'cause it'd be lost in the muck (as it was like before I started my
domination term as moderator). The board would quickly deteriorate into uselessness (in my opinion).
But hey ... this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to be a hard-ass or to piss people off. I'll even resign as a moderator if that's what people want. My intent isn't to offend, just to keep it clean and usable in there. Which I feel is being accomplished.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
You get back in that Moderator's chair right this instance!
(Besides, I enjoy reading your comments when you lock hehehe ;D )
In Darth's defence, he does a good goddamn job. He's right there when a thread shouldn't be posted (like the one exampled) and when he feels the topic is leaning too far away from the games promotion and the discussion turns into an absolute different subject, yes, there needs to be some sort of action.
Like he's stated already, I'm rarely moderating that forum - for two reasons:
1. I'm rarely here anymore (although my AGS interest and AGS game programming has not ceased). When I am I see what's in production and that's it. There's a lot of good shit being produced.
2. He's already beaten me to it - which only shows that he's right on top of his task. He's one of the moderators for that forum - plain and simple. He knows what he's doing and gets it done.
In the thread-makers defence (the one exampled), yeah, I certainly agree that the thread should have been moved to a different forum and not locked, since it was indeed funny and in good fun, not intended to be malicious to the forum rules.
Reverting back to an early comment by Rick:
QuoteOver Moderation: A new member asked something to the effect "I am excited about AGS but don't even know where to start, it's kind of overwhelming. Would someone be willing to hold my hand a bit to help me get started?" The response was basically "Read the manual and be more specific." and the thread was locked.
You know, I've been a member of this community for years. I haven't released a game yet, eventhough I've been working on quite a few over those years, but I always post in the beginners tech forum because of this. I posted there recently about blocking commands and if there was an "in between" so to speak. Someone asked me if I used
Repeatedly_Execute_Always(), and I replied, "I don't want to sound stupid, trust me because I feel stupid, but what is that? I've always used repeatedly execute. That's all I thought there was :(" and I got the same responce right away, "Try reading the manual."
Jesus Christ that pissed me off - no, I haven't sat down and read the whole fucking manual yet, sorry, just a question. It would have been different if it was said in a joking manner, since he did, indeed, continue trying to help me with my problem - and I absolutely respect him for that. But the whole, "Try reading the manual" comment irked the shit out of me.
There are other things I'll comment on when I have more time,
Great thread, by the way, SSH :) I guess you got a portion of what you were missing ;)
--Snake
PS
To ScummVM forum members,
AGS FOREVER!!1
Quote from: Pumaman on Sat 01/12/2007 18:39:06
I'm going to have a chat to the moderators about our current moderation policy.
[...]
But why lock the thread? All it means is that they can't ask any follow-up questions in the same thread and end up having to start another thread to do so.
The other thing is the psychological effect of opening a forum and seeing half the threads on the first page being locked. This is quite offputting and perhaps gives out the wrong signal about the type of forum that we are.
All I'm saying is that in my opinion we should only lock a thread if it's getting out of control, and not just because the original question has been answered.
I must say I don't agree. I was (am?) a |\|003 and many times visit and post in the Beg.Tech.Quest.
The questions are many and even if you search carefully it is difficult to find what you need. It is better not "dilute" the key information and unfortunately the "lock thread" is the only way to obtain this result.
Moreover, I was addressed many time to read this or that part of the manual or to perform a refined forum search, but always in a tactful manner
and most of the times (if not all) with some solid bit of code that helped me to find the right direction.
I'm not a long time forum poster, so I cannot judge wheter or how these boards have changed. I have nothing to complain about how the BTQ is run.
Do you guys remember how GiP was before? Sometimes some things needs OVER______ (Moderatorism, in this case).
I preffer the situation nowadays. Maybe it' s time to say "ok, over moderatorism has archieved it' s goal, time to allow waters go back to it's original channel" but DM has done a supperb job figting chaos in GiP during this time.
If I recall correctly I was the one suggesting and endorsing that Darth should moderate the GiP board, and I can still back him up.
It isn't hard to read the rules before posting. If you can't be arsed to do so, you should expect being moderated. The rules apply to everyone, not only newcomers. I'd rather see a tidy, functional board than one where people are allowed to spam and clutter freely in their pursuit of - often undeserved - attention.
Sure, there seem to be a high amount of stickies, which could be reduced to help clarifying things...but too many stickies or too harsh moderation aren't the cause for the decline of this community, I frankly think it's silly to believe that.
I think it's a trend issue - a downward spiral tendency where older member leave the community to find more stimulating conversations elsewhere. This leaves the community with a higher percentage of young and not so eloquent or sophisticated members (no offense, but when you're 13 you're not as interesting to listen to, sad but true) which in turn fails to attract new members.
The forum would benefit from having more seasoned game makers participating in the everyday conversations. We need more professional input in the critics lounge and more experienced designing feedback in the GTD threads. And the "crazy" threads in gen-gen need to be funnier.
My 2 cents.
Well the Tech Faq, GiP, and Completed Game forums have very specific purposes and it is important that things posted there be well organized and in consistent formats so that people can find what they are looking for. People don't go there to socialize or to ask advice, so it's appropriate that these forums be more strictly moderated than say GenGen, Beginners Tech, and Adventure Chat forums.
Darth is dong a bang up job but in the specific case cited let me ask this: What would have been wrong with sending the author a PM thanking him for trying to liven up the forum and that you would let it run for a few days before moving it, maybe even encourage him to edit out the explanation so that people would fall for it?
IMHO, this is an illustration of what I mean when I wonder if the forums are over moderated. In this case it's not that the moderator shouldn't have taken action, the question is rather what action would have been the most beneficial to the forum and it's members. In this case someone was inspired to share a funny thought with the other members. Funny or not, he put in a fair bit of effort only to be instantly shot down. Why not give the guy a heads up, let the joke run for a while, and then move it to a more appropriate venue or whatever...
When I was a member of Toastmasters (http://www.toastmasters.org/) we learned how to critique one another's speeches in a way that would help the speaker to improve. The most common method consists of the following three steps:
1. Point out the positives, everything the speaker did right
2. Point out the negatives, about 3 or 4 things the speaker did wrong
4. Point out how to improve, 3 or 4 things the speaker could do to improve next time.
Perhaps we could adapt something like this for our moderation policy, especially for newer members, you know the ones whose number of posts show up under their avatar. maybe it would go something like this.
1. Say something positive - acknowledge their enthusiasm, their effort in making the post, etc, etc
2. Explain the rules, what action is being taken, and why
3. Tell them how they can improve the quality of their posts and encourage them to continue contributing to the forum
And perhaps there should be some informal guidelines as to what actions are appropriate in what circumstances. As CJ has said earlier locking a thread is sometimes counter productive. Perhaps it could be something simple like this:
1. Is any action really needed at this time? Is the offending thread likely to die a natural death?
2. If action is needed, what action will achieve the purpose and least discourage future contributions by this and other members?
3. What can I do to mitigate the negative consequences of taking action?
I'll finish by relating some of my experiences playing Rugby. For those who are not familiar with the sport, Rugby is supposed to be played in a continuous manner. I once had a hard time explaining the concept to some guy in a pub once, so out of frustration I said "Well, it's kind of like tackle bacsketball." which, for reasons beyond me, seemed to clarify the concept for him.
Well it's not that easy to keep the play continuous because there so many ways things can get screwed up. To keep everything moving the referee is supposed to ignore minor infractions and allow play to continue provided that the team committing the infraction does not gain an unfair advantage. It's such a joy to play in a match officiated by such a referee. There is nothing more miserable to be playing in a match where the referee enforces every little infraction, everytime it occurs, with the maximum allowed penalty; it's just pure hell.
Thanks for all the kind words :)
Quote from: RickJ on Sun 02/12/2007 17:47:38What would have been wrong with sending the author a PM thanking him for trying to liven up the forum and that you would let it run for a few days before moving it, maybe even encourage him to edit out the explanation so that people would fall for it?
I suppose it wouldn't have been a bad thing to let it go awhile. However, I worry that if one person does it, others would follow suit. Personally I don't like seeing a game with promise, getting my hopes up, and then finding out it's a farce! This would, in my opinion, lessen the effectiveness of the GiP board. Granted, if it had been posted in the Talk and Chat (where I have since moved it) it would be suspect right away 'cause why wasn't it posted in the GiP?
I would like to clarify that (in most cases) when I lock a thread I send a PM to the author explaining the situation. They are almost always appreciative and work with me to set their thread straight. I have cases where I've bounced 5 or 6 PMs back 'n forth helping them out. I've even wrote/edited some of their threads for them!
I may be a Sith ... but there's a heart in there somewhere with all the evil!!! ;)
QuoteHowever, I worry that if one person does it, others would follow suit.
This is what I have seen happen with similar jokey threads in the CL, and is why I follow the policy of this forum rule written by Andail:
What should you Not post in this forum?* Your latest joke about Dutchmen
I find myself in consistent agreement with Andail when it comes to moderation, and have very little to add to his comments aside from this:
I have a sense of humor and even contributed once to a humorous CL thread (Matts Berglinn's ma santa shoes), but I rapidly saw it devolve into a vulgar display of who could be the most shocking. It didn't help matters that Matts was actually
offended by many of the paintovers, and this is exactly the sort of thing I want to avoid.
Darth does a mostly thankless job as do most moderators, really. There are always people eager to criticize when a person jumps up to take the reins, but then they aren't the ones dealing with what is essentially an unpaid job and the daily annoyances involved in doing it (people who just want to test a moderator/forum's patience, people who absolutely will not read and observe basic forum rules).
I think that whatever problems we have with being unfriendly to new people occur mostly in the beginner's tech forum, not in GIP.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Sun 02/12/2007 20:09:04
I find myself in consistent agreement with Andail when it comes to moderation, and have very little to add to his comments aside from this:
I have a sense of humor and even contributed once to a humorous CL thread (Matts Berglinn's ma santa shoes), but I rapidly saw it devolve into a vulgar display of who could be the most shocking. It didn't help matters that Matts was actually offended by many of the paintovers, and this is exactly the sort of thing I want to avoid.
I learnt early on that I had to separate my moderating self from my "real" self. I remember finding that Santa's shoes thread extremely humorous (at least in the beginning) just as I have always seen the hilarity in DG's and Helm's posts, in all their mockery and bile, but despite my affection for these members I've often found myself having to tell them off and prune their threads.
I think I've managed to refrain from coming across as too bad-ass, especially since I receive pm's from inquisitive newcomers on a regular basis, asking for various advice. As long as these friendly messages outweigh the vengeful spam that follows a certain percentage of all moderation done, I'm a happy christmas elf.
I want to add that my post about the thread that got looked in GiP, was in no way meant as a way to disrespect the work Darth Mandarb does!
I'm very happy I'm no moderator. I have been on some forums in the past, and it's a unthankful position to have.
So, basically: thanks for the job you do.
QuoteI have a sense of humor and even contributed once to a humorous CL thread (Matts Berglinn's ma santa shoes), but I rapidly saw it devolve into a vulgar display of who could be the most shocking. It didn't help matters that Matts was actually offended by many of the paintovers, and this is exactly the sort of thing I want to avoid.
Vulgar? Shocking? Having just read through the thread, I can't see any images that are either of those things, it just looked like people having fun. Anyway, that's in the past now.
For the future, I suggest that we all try to lighten up, try not to get offended at the smallest remark, and that all of us moderators remember what it was like to be new to the forums, and perhaps cut people a bit more slack :)
If any forum needs strong moderation, it's the GiP forum. 9 out of 10 projects are never realized. It's all exitement and glorious hope for a while, ultimately just betrayal. It's like religion.
Overall I'm quite happy with the atmosphere of the forums. I feel the quality of opinion expressed is higher than average, and there's a refreshing lack of egotism here.
One thing I've noticed is that while there are many experienced and talented people in the community, the majority of posters are from the less experienced end of the spectrum. It seems that confident, talented people tend to be fairly quiet because they are almost always working on a project. On the other hand we have lots of enthusiastic posters who are still learning the ropes of their field(s) of choice. I think it would be nice to find ways of encouraging our more experienced forum members to participate regularly.
More community resources aimed at 'serious' developers would help. Interviews with community members and non-AGS developers would be a draw for me. I would also welcome more chances to talk with other people who are deep in production, and rarely see the light of day. Perhaps we could facilitate "open house" events, where a community member interviews a development team, and they describe what they are working on, the status of the project, descriptions of their workflow, and release a batch of media.
Another suggestion I'd like to make to Chris and other administrators is that the Games in Progress forum, while functional, could stand to be supplemented with a nice graphical links page somewhere on the main site. Many teams have their own website. Let's capitalize on that. What I'm imagining is a nifty looking grid of banners and logos for the various games in progress, each linking to the developer's site. Next to each logo there could be a small amount of information- perhaps a title, estimated progress, and the date of the last update. The first set of links would be to the sites of healthy, thriving projects. The second page would be an archive of links to sites that haven't been recently updated. This would allow people to quickly check the status of high profile games without wading through multiple pages of forum threads.
Anyway, I hope that was helpful. I already love these forums, and if anything can be done to further improve them I'd be all for it.
Quote from: Neil Dnuma on Mon 03/12/2007 23:24:56
If any forum needs strong moderation, it's the GiP forum. 9 out of 10 projects are never realized. It's all exitement and glorious hope for a while, ultimately just betrayal. It's like religion.
I agree. And I'm one of the guilty ones. My project has been on hold for so long that I've seriously lost interest in it. If and when I begin a new project I will wait a while before announce it in GiP, and make sure I'm actually going to see it through... My previous entry didn't even have official screenshots, they were just backgrounds, which I later remembered breaks the rules... sorry bout that. :-\
Not a thread I found interesting before, but now I see what you were talking about. I mean the "I wish" thread here under. I don't like ranting about these things, but as far as I know the common policy has been not to fill the forums with threads aren't useful, basically ones that you have no need/wish to read through from beginning. And I waited for several days for this thread to be closed because in my conservative overcynical opinion I'd rather talk about something that leads to something more than just a huge post count, and I thought this was the policy here. Hence why I spent more time here than on any other forum.
Take progarchives.com for instance, they have this "just for fun" section in the forums which is something I never even take a look at because it's really not even worth the pass of time. The very same forum has members with over 50 000 posts, none that are useful to anyone. and I think this is just waste of bandwidth... Though apparently it's just me. Has the forums gone all purile here as well?
I guess you are right there.
I spent many years not posting here because I believed most of the issues were not serious enough or even interesting.
Also, newbies are sometimes put apart by some people here. If you keep a distance, you'll see they just want to be accepted.
That is normal for every internet forum. It's like life, the stronger ARE stronger.
But then, when I started posting again I find myself enjoying the art threads and the competitions.
I work for about 2 hours a day on my game, 1 hour I spend here and sometimes I find threads like the "I wish..." to be just fun and relaxing, nothing serious.
I guess we should not take ourselves too serious.
I know I do it sometimes.
cheers to all
I guess I take things too seriously, things like these can be like anal sex, great fun but in the end completely useless. And I dunno, I've begun to require some kind of essential meaning to everything I do, wherther I enjoy it or not :P
I know what you mean. That is why I get into arguments, when I want my opinion to prevail. Life just doesn't get any easier that way.
I'm with Tuomas here. If you want to have fun go make or play AGS games, take part in the fun competitions, or something. Don't clutter the forum with useless stuff. What if we didn't have all this useless posting going on, might we maybe get the member search function back or something?
Ok, I'll never post on the "wish" thread again!
I'm generally against time-wasting nonsense threads that people write in in lack of better things to do.
However, the forum strictness has fluctuated a lot during its history, and it's certainly not suffering from a long-term deterioration.
Back in 2001, the community was much more "lawless" than it is now, and there were no global moderators that dealt with or discussed trouble-makers, trends or rules. Also, the forums were fewer and less specialised, so there was more crap crammed into less space.
Gen-gen, as Helm coined it, has always been the trash-can board of AGS, but when it was first implemented it wasn't really monitored at all; every other thread was utter nonsense and if arguments broke out nobody really cared if they ran out of hand.
Both CL and GiP were installed to relieve gen-gen from some pressure but in return they demand constant and close moderation.
I think the forum are quite nicely balanced right now, although people still need to think twice before hitting that "post"-button.
Quote from: Tuomas on Thu 24/04/2008 21:36:29
as far as I know the common policy has been not to fill the forums with threads aren't useful, basically ones that you have no need/wish to read through from beginning.
Aren't you the one who started "The PHUN thread"?
I somehow get a feeling that you have not been around in many other internet places! Honestly!
Do you compare AGS forums with any crap around? 90% is awful!
I'm not as Internet old as other members in here, but I just see that the forums are just right! What if someone went with the wish thread? I mean Kinoko was having "the best actor" thread, 2 years ago, is this any better?
This is the best place in the world! Only because we understand each other, we don't ban anyone pretty much, and in the end of the line we produce 300 games per year! Come on! What else do you want?
Anyonw (like Helm) who feels unwanted, or unchallenged, or insulted, or whatever can really delete his posts (or not, but skitzo did it recently, in an urge to feel better I imagine), and move on with life!
We are confusing two seperate things:
A. the AGS engine, which is free for all and brilliant!
B. the community!
Those two are not actually as close connected as we might want to think! Times grow, people educate themselves. If you search the AGS forums you'll notice ads about cgempire, about cds, about movies, about samples, about art, about anything really! And the gen-gen is the best forum of them all really!
I understand completely that the somewhat strict moderation is what keeps the place in hand, but I'm enjoying that, since I was educated in this very forum! I came accross other forums where the mentioning of my website is considered advertising (!!!) I mean!
The gen-gen is designed for silly talk in general. Either it is a new laptop (and it seems that Kinoko and me think alike, cause we both asked the same question pretty much), or something that we like, or anything simmilar! I rarely see anything that is out of hand in all honesty! The community is just great! It is SO obvious to what the community is about, that it's brilliant and works almost on it's own! If I may ask: How many threads have you locked or deleted recently? Apart from the common error (Hi! I do graphics and would like to..." thread that get's locked away with a link and the occasional silly post "Hi it's been 3 years that you posted but this games looks great, when will you finish it???" (reply: NEVER!), there's nothing else to bother me.
Sure traffic and threads and fun come and goes as it should, but it's a community and some core members do remain the same, only they grow up further. You can't expect a 20 year old Andail to be the same as a 26 year old, or Petteri (who I don't really know), or Eric, or anything really. Some move on (helm, Kinoko), some never appear really (berny), some over post (*ahem* me, Emerald), some are the sanity inside here (Vince XII), and so on. Forgive me for the example, they are mere examples and nothing more!
What's the reason in complaining about a thread? There are other places to look, you don't have to read it! I tried to have fun with the wish thread, but just couldn't make it! It didn't feel right! This doesn't mean we should kill the thread and move on!
Yeah, I've been in a lot of forums/communities too.
I've been on totally lawless, chaotic forums where the moderators themselves verbally abuse people for little more than their own amusement. That was pretty fun. But mainly 'cause the regulars on those kind of forums tend to be idiots, and they're easy to screw with and/or outsmart.
I've also been on super-strict forums where anything funny is immediately snuffed by the nazi regime unless its purpose was 100% airtight. Posts would actually be edited to fix grammar and spelling and delete unnecessary humour. And there were about 50 sub-forums, each with a very specific purpose. For example, there was a "Game suggestions" forum, a "Game Creator" forum, a "Seeking Game Creator" forum and a "Seeking Game Players" forum. And newbies are expected to know the difference or their posts will be unceremoniously deleted and they'll be 'cautioned'.
That was pretty fun, too, but mostly because these people had no lives outside their moderating jobs, and literally had no sense of humour...
Imagine if AGS was like that.
All in all, I think we've struck a happy medium.
The solution is obvious!
(Hey again by the way, I need to check into my favorite forum more :P)
A NEW AGS TEAM CONTEST! Or something like that. Send an e-mail to all the vaguely active people and try and grab them back into using AGS with a contest, or some way of putting more games together.
Pretty much all we've been doing for the last 4 months is waiting for the next Ben Jordan game. := My policy is MORE GAMES! MORE GAMES!
- Huw
I personally don't like too strictly moderated forums. And I think it is just fine here. Gen-gen is constantly full of off-topic trash, but hey, wouldn't it be just too boring to have only a few serious posts and nothing else? Community lives from communication, not forcing itself to post only relevant on-topic posts.
You can never win with this sort of thing. If we leave the "I wish" thread open some people will complain that it's pointless and stupid. If we lock the thread, some people will complain that we're over-moderating and being too strict.
When you think back to some other seemingly pointless threads that turned into classics (like the "I LOVE MARK LOVEGROVE" one and the Haiku thread) I think it's usually worth letting them burn themselves out.
Then probably we should move it to popular threads? ;) After just a few days and over 70 posts, it surely is popular, right?
I don't post as much as I use to because of other life responsibilities. Being a husband, father, and older AGSter pulls me away for long stretches of time.
But like CJ put it, there should be fresh blood coming in all the time to make up for us older guys and gals.
Since I started over here my Internet life, I've picked up a few very good habbits, I think.
Double posting is bad
CAPPITAL LETTERING is bad
Quoting your above post is stupid and bad probably
Quoting an image is bad, etc
After almost 3 years of being around, some of these seem to be logical, while others seem to be based in some kind of "bandwith" issue, or some "slow dial-up users" issue, which in all honesty I can't say that it really exists...
Quoting your above poster, seems to make sense when you want to adress specific issues, or when it might be misunderstood who you're talking to.
Quoting an image, in all honesty helps, and it is helpful, to not go back to check which image we are talking about. Don't know how many of us over here are in dial-up era, but I somehow feel that the % will be very small, so it doesn't matter if the thread is clattered with images, etc, does it?
Just some thoughts, I guess...
I think that the overall quality of the forums is very high here.
I Also believe that if we want it to improve, then the top members must post more, people that are references and I am not writing names because we all know who they are.
When I served my country we used to say: "Age is a rank around here".
When the respected members talk the other members listen.
It happens to me, I just calm down ;)
The important threads will survive time.
I don't see a problem with silly threads in General Discussion, really. General has always been pretty much an 'anything goes' forum where people can vent frustrations, be silly or bring up interesting (or not) non-ags topics. The thing that some people seem to have trouble grasping is that you neither have to read every thread nor participate in every thread. If the subject matter seems pointless to you, don't participate! As long as the content isn't about attacking someone in the forums or a flame war or some kind of random advertisement/spam, I don't see a problem.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Fri 25/04/2008 22:20:30
I don't see a problem with silly threads in General Discussion, really.
Whenever I see the title of this thread I think:
"The old grey mare
She ain't what she used to be
Ain't what she used to be
Ain't what she used to be"
Sung by a bunch of old men with their trousers around their ankles a la Simpsons
It's hard to draw the line between fun and spam. I apparently draw it a bit further in to the fun side than most people, but I've been in this community for a long time, seen a lot of the earlier topics, but not once before do I recall to have felt a topic left open has been useless in this respect. But as it's none of my business I'm resting my case here for now.