Free Will

MillsJROSS · Sat 29/07/2006 04:46:07

Quote
Sadly, I am an agnostic and believe in nothing.

I don't see why this is sad. And in general it's exactly what I believe. Not necessarily in nothing, but that the something is unknown, so why care?

As far as free will is concerned, this is where an agnostic view comes and helps again. Why care? All we know is that we live and percieve to make our own decisions.

If we have free will, and think we have free will then this doesn't have any conflict with how our preceptions are.
If we have free will, and don't think we have free will, then we're free to think that our decisions are insubstantial, and already made up.

If we don't have free will, but think we have free will, then it still doesn't have a conflict with how we live our lives, because it's already been decided for us long ago to think that we have free will.
If we don't have free will, and don't think we have free will, then we probably have a 9-5 job.

If I had to argue anything, I would say this is really a question of relativity. If we take the whole universe and believe everything is set in motion, and uncapable of changing from its destined path, this doesn't really affect our lives. We are just one big equation. However, let's consider us the universe now. It's what we know. We react to events around us, unknowingly partaking in destiny, while at the same time our lives are affected by certain events or certain people. Because our scope isn't universal, but local, our perception of the universe and how we react to things seems to give us the notion that there is free will. Because we live on what we percieve, on our level, I would argue we have free will. Not free will enough to break out of what we're destined to do, but free will enough to think we do.

This is based on the assumption that the universe is based on a set of rules that can not change, and are not random. Let's assume that there are some things that don't apply to rules. This initially sounds more exciting, but I don't like to delve into this path, because you get into this conundrum. If the world is random, and nothing is set in motion, then your decisions are also random. Which means, yes, you have free will, but to what end? It's not you making decisions, it's the randomness of the universe. However, this option also is a question of relativity. If you don't know the universe is random, then you'll think you made decisions based on your will.

So in the end, it your perceptions that matter. I'd say the term free will has a scope. It means more to us than the universe.

-MillsJROSS

2ma2 · Sun 30/07/2006 00:19:08

Quote from: MillsJROSS on Sat 29/07/2006 04:46:07
I don't see why this is sad. And in general it's exactly what I believe. Not necessarily in nothing, but that the something is unknown, so why care?

Atheists BELIEVE that there is no God, and thus has a conviction not unlike religious convictions. The antithesis of theism has neither proof nor evidence of the inexistance of God. Agnosticism however is a pure antireligious form; an antistatement of convictions. We all need something to believe in, and I miss having a reason to live.

MillsJROSS · Sun 30/07/2006 03:37:33

I don't necessarily agree. Agnostics isn't the antitheses of theism. It's a simple matter of saying that we are without knowledge, and to argue over the existence of gods/dietys/what-have-you serves no purpose. Agnostics are allowed to overlap with atheism and theism. An agnostic might say, "There is no proof of existence of god, and I don't personally believe in one" or "There is no proof of the existence of god, but I still believe there might be"

Good ol' wikipedia affirms this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

As far as having a reason to live...I don't buy into the fact that because you believe there is no way to prove the existence of god one way or the other, than your life has no meaning or reason. I'd also argue that believing in a god or not believing in a god, necessarily gives anyone a reason to live either. It's up to the individual to provide their own reasons for living. Mine is to try and make computer games, and if that doesn't work, have a few laughs, anyway. I believe in my existence, therefor I am. And I don't care if I'm created by an architect or by accident.

I am not saying that it's not possible for you not to have a reason to live, but it's not because of your being agnostic as it applies to a god. It's being agnostic as it applies to your beliefs in your existence.

-MillsJROSS

Mad-Hatter · Sun 30/07/2006 05:37:37

Quote from: MillsJROSS on Sun 30/07/2006 03:37:33
An agnostic might say, "There is no proof of existence of god, and I don't personally believe in one" or "There is no proof of the existence of god, but I still believe there might be"
-MillsJROSS

Precisely.

An agnostic isn't necessarily someone who refuses to believe in God, but rather someone who refuses to question His existence, because they acknowledge the fact it can't be proven that He does exist, nor that He doesn't.

As MillsJROSS put it, an agnostic can believe in God if they want, or they can not believe in God if they want. But it doesn't mean that they HAVE to, by definition, believe one way or another.

Helm · Sun 30/07/2006 06:26:55

last two posts by mills are great.

2ma2: even existentialists with strong epistemological issues with the concept of knowledge, that claim to know nothing, still have reasons to remain alive, and they seem to have their fun too. Being alive is good enough incentive for staying alive, it seems.

Tom S. Fox · Sun 30/07/2006 14:46:52

I don't believe in God or Satan.
They're just fictional charaters.
We're all on our own.

And miracles... well, the church has a convenient way to sort out miralces:
"Miracles only happens to those, who can help themselves".
So, basically it means: People, who can help themselves, doesn't need mircales - those, who can't help themselves doesn't deserve miracles!

And about the free will: I doubt there is something like that, either.
I think, our brains just gets impulses from our environment wich run down our synapses, get analyzed and then we commit an apropiate reaction.

Quote from: Mr Flibble on Fri 28/07/2006 12:40:57
I think people today would gain a better spiritual insight if they went to church less and played Grim Fandango more.[/qoute]
Amen!

2ma2 · Mon 31/07/2006 03:33:09

Mills: You misunderstood me. I meant that Atheism is the antithesis of Theism, and Agnosticismis is avoiding the question so to speak. But to the rest; I thought the core issue of agnosticism was the refusal to believe in neither God(s) nor Atheism, but Wikipedia proves me wrong - only the knowledge is unattainable, the beliefs are not.

"and are also used to describe those who are unconvinced or noncommittal about the existence of deities as well as other matters of religion." - my view. Quoted from WP.

Helm: Being alive is a poor incentive to stay alive since it ceases when your life is over. It is however an argument against suicide.

Mad-Hatter · Mon 31/07/2006 03:50:20

Quote from: Helm on Sun 30/07/2006 06:26:55

2ma2: even existentialists with strong epistemological issues with the concept of knowledge...

AGGHHH!!!!! Too many big words!!!!

Quote from: Thomas VoÃ Å¸ on Sun 30/07/2006 14:46:52

And miracles... well, the church has a convenient way to sort out miralces:
"Miracles only happens to those, who can help themselves".
So, basically it means: People, who can help themselves, doesn't need mircales - those, who can't help themselves doesn't deserve miracles!

Not many big words enough!!!!

Helm · Mon 31/07/2006 04:15:04

QuoteHelm: Being alive is a poor incentive to stay alive since it ceases when your life is over. It is however an argument against suicide.

Without wanting to derail this gem of a thread, what I ment was a pretty low-brow concept: we're instinctually hardwired to desire to remain alive. There is no need for arguments on why staying alive is a good idea, be you a man with convictions or not, we just really really want to.

So I'm not buying the 'I am an agnostic and therefore I don't have God to focus on and remain alive'. There's been people that believe in absolutely nothing, have done the most atrocious things you can imagine, and they sleep like babies and think life's the greatest thing ever.

2ma2 · Mon 31/07/2006 04:21:31

But if the desire to live is wired, the wiring can be malfunctioning, and not even finding Jesus will help you then. Kinda sucks..

MillsJROSS · Mon 31/07/2006 04:27:44

Hire a good electrician.

-MillsJROSS

Steel Drummer · Mon 31/07/2006 05:12:19

Quote from: Mad-Hatter on Fri 28/07/2006 08:12:01

In the General Discussion forum, there are a lot of silly topics, but hopefully no one minds a serious one, as well.

I've noticed a lot of Christians have been claiming things in the Lord's name that I seriously doubt the good Lord had anything to do with.

All due to a little thing called 'free will'. The ability to think for ourselves and choose our own actions.

The best example I can think of is the Youth Group at my church. They went on a missionary trip to Nevada, and came back some few weeks later to tell us all about it in a speech.

They told of how SATAN kicked them out of a park for practising religion in public.

They also spoke of how GOD allowed them to find another church that would help them.

How GOD informed the park director that it was a city park, and they could do whatever they wanted there.

How SATAN still wouldn't let them.

And they ended this speech with, "We knew we were doing the right thing because we were being prosecuted."

Now, while my entire church gives them a standing ovation and a few women behind me are crying because it's apparently some beautiful religious moment, I'm muttering angrily to myself and staying firmly planted in my seat.

I hate to tell them this, but (believe it or not) God isn't responsible for every little good thing, bad thing, mishap, convenience, inconvenience, or event that happens to you in your life.

(my grandmother would kill me if she read that)

IMO, I think that God has control over the world, but He doesn't control what people do- and neither does Satan. After all, God DID give people free will. I think either you're exaggerating about your church, or else the people are extremists. The people at my church wouldn't blame Satan for kicking them out of the park and all that stuff.

Helm · Mon 31/07/2006 08:04:16

Quote from: MillsJROSS on Mon 31/07/2006 04:27:44
Hire a good electrician.

-MillsJROSS

Agree

Hammerite · Mon 31/07/2006 08:33:30

personally i'd just take it as a point from god to do something enjoyable.

Mad-Hatter · Mon 31/07/2006 20:50:43

Quote
I think either you're exaggerating about your church, or else the people are extremists. The people at my church wouldn't blame Satan for kicking them out of the park and all that stuff.

Though I AM prone to exaggeration, I assure you I'm not exaggerating this time. They ACTUALLY said that.
Whether they were attempting to use it in a metaphorical sense, or if they actually believed it, I don't know. Regardless, they DID say it.

Steel Drummer · Mon 31/07/2006 20:55:10

What denomination is your church?

Mad-Hatter · Tue 01/08/2006 01:00:46

QuoteWhat denomination is your church?

First Baptist.

Steel Drummer · Tue 01/08/2006 05:46:23

I bet they were using it as a metaphor where satan represented the people that kicked them out and God represented the youth group themselves. Although I don't know of anywhere where they'd use metaphors that are THAT radical.

Dreadus · Tue 01/08/2006 06:45:06

Free will is commonly thought of as a sin with fundies - It's what got satan kicked out.

SSH · Tue 01/08/2006 10:17:48

Perhaps those guys were reading too much Frank Peretti