Thanks for all your help!
You know I would have suggested buying him a whore behind his back, but if it's more than that...
gheez, I've seen this in a movie once or twice, but can't really tell how it ends. Depression in a high level is so scary. Basically if someone close to you is depressed you feel like leaving him be for good because he's annoying, but yet you feel the need to make him feel better. I could see something like a shock treatment helping on me. Like if I got the prostitute, or got beaten up real bad, I think that would wake me up to think about my life. Remember this when I sink. But more than that I can't say.
The frustrating thing is, he really isn't trying to pull himself out of it. I asked him jokingly if he was going to be cheered up by the time we went on holiday in August, and he replied "no". He does not try to get involved in group activities when we all do stuff together, he does not try to look on the bright side at all. He listens to sad music instead of happy music. It's for all the world as though he is enjoying his woe... which of course I know he's not...
A person with emotional issues cannot be strong-armed into dealing with them. If he is indeed clinically depressed (and because it seems like it doesn't mean it is true. Some people are just attention whores, or too dramatic, or they're trying to fuck their friends' girlfriend) then there will come a time when his life is so acutely unbearable that it'll come down between asking for help, or suicide. Either way, that's when things will happen, not when people explain the benefits of medication to them.
You would do best to maintain a safe distance from this person, make him aware completely and utterly that his round-about advances towards you - 'cause that's what all this emoing sounds like - are hopeless and that you're happy with your current boyfriend (which I guess is the case?) I'd further suggest to stop the endless late-night MSN conversations with him and so on. Inform your boyfriend of what's going on. He, as any other clear-seeing person will see the conflict for what it predominantly is.
If your friend needs help, you can only give it it him when he asks for it. It might be the case that dealing with him as you have so far has only accentuated the issues with his personality, which may or may not be depression-based.
I hate saying this; but guess I am not so different from him. "Self-mutilation" and "getting drunk occasionally" are not things that I don't do (I really have no intention to tell the reasons).
However; after the teenage, I have always been trying to avoid being an annoying emo-kid. I even left writing my personal blog page just because I cannot think of something else but sadness (and I knew my friends used to get sad when they read about my self-mutilation, etc.). I do not have rights to make them sad, especially my problems are things that they can't solve.
I don't know what to offer him or you to do. Group activities would usually work, but he refuses these.
(And yes, usually the prostitutes are not the solutions in these cases.)
Edit: I also agree with Helm.
Even though my situation seems like that guy, I had never told (and would never) my that girl friend these kind of things. His intentions might be bad.
Quote from: Helm on Wed 21/02/2007 12:53:06
A person with emotional issues cannot be strong-armed into dealing with them. If he is indeed clinically depressed (and because it seems like it doesn't mean it is true. Some people are just attention whores, or too dramatic, or they're trying to fuck their friends' girlfriend) then there will come a time when his life is so acutely unbearable that it'll come down between asking for help, or suicide. Either way, that's when things will happen, not when people explain the benefits of medication to them.
You would do best to maintain a safe distance from this person, make him aware completely and utterly that his round-about advances towards you - 'cause that's what all this emoing sounds like - are hopeless and that you're happy with your current boyfriend (which I guess is the case?) I'd further suggest to stop the endless late-night MSN conversations with him and so on. Inform your boyfriend of what's going on. He, as any other clear-seeing person will see the conflict for what it predominantly is.
If your friend needs help, you can only give it it him when he asks for it. It might be the case that dealing with him as you have so far has only accentuated the issues with his personality, which may or may not be depression-based.
The thing is, he has never been emo before... which is why I'm giving him the time of day now. He's never shown a history of being an attention-seeker or an emo... he's always been a really nice, level-headed guy, and this transformation into being emo and attention-seeking (which he is being, now) and kind of aggressive in his attitude towards women... it's really, really sudden and weird. If he'd always been an attention seeker, I wouldn't be so concerned now.
As for late-night MSN conversations and things... hehe, they sound a bit 'dodgy'... they would usually involve my boyfriend too though. He was also very worried about him.
He's never, ever come on to me before or shown any sign, when not being drunk, that he'd like to "go out with me", but it was kind of a snapping point for me, when he started talking about that while he was drunk... he either seems to be having a go at me for no reason, or telling me that he wishes I was his girlfriend... bah.
I really don't like his personality at the moment, I find him incredibly, incredibly hard to bear... but since he has never been like this before his break-up, I can't help but care, since he'd always been awesome before that.
Um, there are some things that might help you understand how he feels a bit better... okay, he's nearly 30, and he was engaged to this girl... she left him for a guy he used to work with... and he has extremely low self-esteem (he won't let my boyfriend try and set him up with a girl because he's afraid the girl might find my boyfriend more attractive than him, and be disappointed...)
... he also has a chronic eye infection and has to wear an eyepatch. One day he'll probably have to have the eye removed. This is, I'm pretty certain, another cause of his depression... that he believes he'll never find a girl who will love him with an eye-patch... if that makes sense....
He has shown jealousy of my boyfriend over the past few months, but I'm not sure it's entirely because he wants to go out with me. In fact, I'm pretty sure he actually doesn't want to, it was just something he said when drunk. My boyfriend and I have been together for a few years and are renovating a house together, live together etc... I think he might be jealous of this relationship, but I'm not sure... he's very hard to understand :(
Has anybody else here been in a state of depression similar to this, or for similar reasons, or maybe known somebody in a similar situation?
Speaking from extensive experience, I wouldn't worry too much or push pills at him, most contact will be annoying for you until it all blows over, but that's generally how mental illness is.
It's certainly a help if you can continue on being friendly as you are, but you're not really obliged to...
Speaking from my experiences, it's not your job to fix him and you'll only go crazy trying to.
You didn't break him and you can't fix him. There is nothing you can say, no little keyword or inspirational speach that will snap him out of it.
Don't just cut off all contact with him but don't try to cheer him out of it. If he's in a real depressed state it's either something that he works through or people trained in this matter will have to try and help.
That is coming from my experience from 3 different people all with severe depression.
What eric said. It's even to a degree, alluring at first, to see if how depression works on a person and what can you say or do to help, but don't try this. If it is depression. I see that word thrown around a lot but then when and if you actually have to deal with someone who can no longer sleep right, forgets things you told them 3 minutes ago, breaks down and starts crying for no reason you can understand, who can't coherently articulate abstract thoughts, who is certain of nothing who is finally incapable of feeling pleasure and happiness in their state of mind... then it separates the 'pop' from the 'psychology' of the matter. We're all a bit sad at times and we have our personal ways of dealing with our downs, but a few downs don't necessarily a depression make. If it's really that bad as what I described, it'll come to a breaking point eventually.
You're not a doctor.. The best thing you can do as a friend is to be patient, and careful. Don't even try to diagnose the situation at this time. Some people have bad things happen to them and they fall into depression, other people have bad things happen to them and they take it as an excuse to be assholes for a while. Time will tell.
Eight months is a long time to remain hung up on a relationship that's over. Seems a lot of people before me have said they have great experience with this sort of thing so I feel the need to not be repetitive. I will say, however, that if he hasn't come to terms with things yet then he does need some kind of professional intervention, either counseling or anti-depressants or both. You can provide none of these things for him, or indeed make him get help, and so you are stuck in the typical situation many people find themselves in where you want to help a person who really isn't at the stage where they want to help themselves.
Analysis: continue being his friend and encouraging him to get out and meet people. Also encourage him to work and do other things that he used to enjoy as a hobby. An idle mind is the devil's playground as they say, and keeping busy will help to slowly get him out of fixating on what was.
I'd like to offer advice, but my track record in this area isn't exactly outstanding. It's a pity that his depression sounds more serious than the typical angsty kind people usually complain about. It sounds like he doesn't want help, which begs the question; what exactly does he want?
By anyway, that's insane, an eyepatch would be a massively alluring thing to have. :D
Speaking as one of the currently medicated I can confirm, that in my case at least, it does work.
Pre-medication, I was prone to violent outbursts brought on by frustrations stemming from what I believed to be a losing battle with my mind.
When your inner self becomes your prime tormentor, an overwhelming sense of defeat can cloud almost every aspect of your daily life. What other people say to you becomes like a dull relentless drone, and the focus of your frustrations can fall on them.
If this guy is truly depressed, any encouraging words you give him will only frustrate him more. It's depression's Catch 22. At the moment he seems to be in the "If only..." stage of feeling sorry for himself.
"If only I had more money/a bigger penis/straight teeth/someone who understands me/no acne/a short-haired terrier, then everything else would fall into place."
It's a defence mechanism that prevents us from coming face to face with our core problem.
In my case, medication was the first step in regaining control of my mind and my life.
I'm not saying it's a miracle cure, as the odd mental thumb war still occurs, but if your system is receptive to the drug you'll find it can help a lot.
If he is genuinely ill, then he needs professional help. This could be something as simple as talking to a GP. "Mental Problems" doesn't have to mean straitjackets and giant butterfly nets, and just talking to a GP is a good start.
But be careful. It'll probably take him a long time to admit that it's him, and not everybody else, who has the problem. At the moment he's a parasitic narcissist and, unconciously or not, he's feeding off the ability to make himself feel vindicated by bringing down the people around him.
Quoteif this guy is truly depressed, any encouraging words you give him will only frustrate him more. It's depression's Catch 22. At the moment he seems to be in the "If only..." stage of feeling sorry for himself.
I disagree with this portion of your diagnosis, Dr. Fish, in that you seem to have mistaken encouragement for pity. Encouraging someone to go out and do things and telling them that the girl they were dating was a bitch and will get hers are two different things. The last thing anyone needs after a bad relationship is someone helping them to harp on it, or to tell them to 'get over it'.
I apologize if it sounds like I'm sermonizing, or speaking with an authority beyond my own experience. But I shall continue, regardless. :=
There are no encouraging words, because the tainted mind will automatically twist their meaning. The narcacistic element of his problem at the moment will react purely out of desire to protect the ego.
"I don't need help, I don't need you telling me what's wrong, it's not me who has the problem! Stop acting like you care! If you really cared, you'd sleep with me/tell me what I need to hear/misc, etc, etc"
It's all awfully familiar to me.
He needs an epiphany, a sudden moment of clarity. He needs to reach a point where he's exhausted all other blame avenues, and the only one left has a big arrow pointing at him. When he sees that alienating everybody close to him has gotten him nowhere, he'll make a postive move. Only then should the encouraging begin, when he will be all the more receptive to it.
It's a tricky situation that can go either way, really.
Of course, this is all based on the assumption that he is actually suffering from depression.
He could just be a git. :-\
A new relationship is very sheldomly the cure for depression stemming from the ruins of an old one.
QuoteThere are no encouraging words, because the tainted mind will automatically twist their meaning. The narcacistic element of his problem at the moment will react purely out of desire to protect the ego.
I will respectfully disagree with you on this point.
I agree with Dr. Fish. Any positive feedback or compliments you give him he will take the wrong way. He knows he's depressed and the fact that you're saying just what he wants to hear won't help. He'll know that you're just saying it and he'll just feel like you're patronizing him.
My best mate went into a huge depression for a few years after breaking up with a long term girlfriend who he expected to marry.
For months he would just lie down in front of the tv, not say anything, and barely respond to any form of communication. For most of this time he still worked as a postman, went to work, came home and lay down, went to work etc (I still don't know how he managed to do it, but I guess it took his mind off his problems while he worked) [he was probably about 25 then, now almost 31]
His brother and I tried to get him to come out as often as we could but all his response was, was "nah" using a lot of effort just to get that murmur out.
We never gave up on asking him to go anywhere, even just to the shops, but still never did anything. he said he could never sleep either but he was always snoring in front of the tv.
His ex girlfriend got married to the guy she left him for within a year, and I still haven't told him [probably about 4 or more years ago] (cause I didn't want him to slip back into depression) and strangely he still doesn't know (not that it matters now)
Eventually his parents had enough of his problems and got him to see a few different doctors, eventually he was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder which used to be called manic depression, which is really the same thing as clinical depression.
He was put on a variety of meds, I'm not sure what they were, one was Lithium, but almost instantly, instead of being a sloth, it was like he was on speed. He wouldn't shut up, and every second word was fuck.
He's still on meds years later and he still talks a lot more than he used to, but can't listen for shit, these drugs fuck with your short term memory, you become only interested in what you have to say. I always talk to him about stuff and have to repeat myself all the time or say "yeah, that's exactly what I was telling you about five minutes ago.
It's better than being a sloth, but there comes a time in your life when you really need to be clean, and not have to be dependent on meds or other people for that matter, just to function normally.
He had another girlfriend a couple of years ago that he treated badly (not physically) but just didn't take seriously, cause he didn't want to get emotionally attached, he's still friends with her.
But he's got a very serious girlfriend now, who he'd been friends with for a year before they got together, and I think he's almost off his meds. there's still always been signs of depression but there's a difference to not being happy all the time, and completely removing yourself from society.
I don't think this story is going to be of much help.
I would still keep contact with him, but whenever he starts to try and bring you down to his depressive level, just end the conversation.
Just let him know that you are still there, If he doesn't want to go out anywhere, that's fine, but don't stop asking, it just keeps them in the loop and may make them feel accepted at some subconscious level. and eventually one day they may feel up to it, but they may also just want to bring everyone else down and possibly make a scene in public.
I'd advise against any medication if possible, but it can help them break out of a rut (but that's the danger of any medication whether it be prescription or illegal drugs, they are addictive and once dependent, contradict what they were used for in the first place)
He's probably jealous of your relationship, cause he sees a similar situation he could have possibly been in, and it eats him up inside. Time may help eventually, but I don't know your friend so I'm not sure how he's bounced back from previous situations.
And with time, it totally varies between people, and how they treat themselves, and what they've been through in the past, could be months, even years, and they'll probably never be the same, but sometimes that can be a good thing.
I've got other stories about depression, but this one seemed to fit the situation
I'll post my thoughts here too, but they'll probably be of little use.
I can think of two occasions when I was depressed. The first time was at school, when I was about 14-15. I won't go into why, but I would go from lesson to lesson silently, people would talk to me and I wouldn't talk back. People would crack a joke to cheer me up. I would hear the joke, and even find it funny, yet was so bad that I couldn't even raise a smile. It was like I was a prisoner in my own mind. I did have suicidal thoughts, but I didn't act out on them. Eventually, as time passed by, I was just sick of feeling depressed and snapped out of it, slowly. I began to reconnect with the world. Shame this hasn't happened with your friend.
The other occasion, was even worse, and was nearly the end of me. Eventually I went counselling, deciding not to take medication. I am of the sort who doesn't like to rely on drugs unless I really have to. The counselling was just depressing me further, having to talk about all my problems over and over, like as if I hadn't told them to enough people already.
Once again I just moved on with my life.
I wonder why he hasn't just got sick of being sad.
I wonder, if you did stop being so sad for him, and trying to cheer him up, would this have a postive or negative effect on him. Hmmm...
Quote from: Yutzster on Wed 21/02/2007 12:02:48
We went to a restaurant together (me, a friend, my boyfriend and this guy) and he spent the whole time being depressed and not involving himself in the conversation. When we were leaving, my boyfriend and I gave him a hug and he was still silent, and then when I tried to hug him again (because he looked miserable) he pushed me away and told me to stop trying to make him happy.
Big mistake. Do not hug him if he's acting depressed for this long. If he's not involving himself in the conversation and acting really silent or not taking his medication when he's supposed to, hugging him validates his behaviour. He thinks, "If I act depressed and distant, that means people will show me affection."
What you want to do is not validate this kind of behaviour. What you want to do is wait until he actually makes an effort, then hug him. It's fine to hug people when they're depressed, but just as long as they have a focus upon rehabilitation. It sounds like your friend is making no effort whatsoever.
A small effort would be him voluntarily participating in conversation. A bigger effort would be him going back on medication. But so far, he's not doing anything like this. So don't hug him until he does.
What you want to show is basically that you sympathise with his situation but you'll only put in the same amount of effort that he's willing to put in himself. If he puts no effort into himself, you shouldn't put any effort in him either. Reserve your efforts for another depressed friend who actually deserves it.
It's similar to what LimpingFish said and what some of the others said about attention-seeking. What you basically want to is essentially reward him when he actually invests proper time and care into himself. And, most importantly, you've got to make this clear to him. You've got to be clear in your communication with him, along the lines of: "I care about you, but I'm not willing to invest my time in you unless you're willing to find a healthier frame of mind for yourself." And suggest ideas, akin to what I've mentioned above.
It sounds harsh, but you've got to be assertive in this situation. The whole "hugs to the emo guy for being so emo" is making things worse.
Let me say something about medication in general.
When I was about 20 years old, I worked as a volunteer in a psychiatric hospital for young people. I decided to do this instead of making my military service. In Germany we have this possibility.
I stayed there for about a year and helped the personal with minor services like:
- Make a walk with a depressed person
- Give someone something to eat, because he doesn't want to eat anymore
And some extreme tasks like:
- Clean up the Room, that has been entirely smeared with shit by a patient, and so on...
Well, in that period of my life I got a lot of impressions and some basic psychological informations. I also saw lots of persons, that got a medication and I saw what happened to them:
First of all I recognized that they became thick. Their bodies all got let's say fat but not as if they were eating to much, more like as if they were full of water. They also lost lot's of their personalitity: Before they got medicated they sure were angry and unhappy, but at least they had something like an opinion like: "No, I don't want to do this."
After the continous medication they were all happy and calm, but also very obedient. Some of them didn't even know anymore, what is eatable and what not. I remember myself of a guy that asked a patient during a walk: "Look at that wonderful slug over there! I'm sure it tastes quite well. Wouldn't you like to eat it?" And that boy really tried to eat the slug... I managed to stop him before he put it into his mouth.
Most of them after they were "cured" and left the "hospital" made a drug or scientology carreer because they believed everything that you told them, but they were happy somehow. The depression was cured but the personality was lost. I think even suicide is better than that.
I'm sure these are very extreme cases I've seen...and I can tell endless stories about that year in the hospital. But whatever you do with your friend: Make sure he doesn't end up in a psychiatric hospital and that he doesn't get medicated.
What about homoeopathy or traditional chinese medicine? They offer an alternative cure for this kind of love related problems. I know some persons who really made positive experiences with this. I think it's worth a thought...
Thanks everyone for your very helpful, informed replies :)
I agree with Limpingfish... although in some cases it may be different of course, in the case of my friend, he even takes encouragement the wrong way. Even things such as girls showing an interest in him/making him feel wanted, he uses it to make himself depressed over how they're not his ex...
Le Woltaire: I have asked him to go and see a doctor, he won't do that. I've asked him to changed his diet and try alternative medicine, he won't. I've asked him to take medication or try counselling, he won't.
So I guess you're all right, I'll have to just leave him be until he snaps out of it or reaches a point where he wants to recover.
It's hard though, because like I said... I know that he's an incredibly cool and nice guy underneath his current 'emo' exterior... it's very frustrating...
What about the obvious thing that he's got a crush on you and it's unreciprocated, making him jealous, angry and depressed?
The thing about being drunk is that you're more honest about feelings and emotions. Maybe it's the lowered inhibitions, maybe it's just that you don't give a fuck about consequences. If he said it while drunk, he thinks it when he's sober.
On another tack, if thats not the case (I seriously think it is from reading your posts, although I'm not there so I don't really know) has anybody just told him to grow the fuck up and get over his ex? I see he's been treated with kid gloves and been kind to, people have been understanding and thoughtful and tried to reason through his pain. Has anyone tried some "tough love"?
Quote from: Klytos on Thu 22/02/2007 13:43:22
Has anyone tried some "tough love"?
Is that code for "masturbation"?
Ah, no it's not. :D :D
By tough love, I meant somebody telling him he's acting like a fool and should grow a pair.
Quotealternative medicine
Can you elaborate on what alternative medecine you suggest?
Me or the other guy who mentioned it?
I don't know much about Alternative Medicine, to be honest... my boyfriend and his mum are both into it though. I don't think my boyfriend has ever had an antibiotic in his life (dirty hippy :) ) I personally don't believe in an awful lot of it, but the point is, he's not even trying any of this stuff... he's content to just be a miserable ass... he won't even do a simple thing like try changing his diet.
Klytos, I may have made it sound like it in my posts, but I honestly don't believe he has a crush on me... I think it's just jealousy that I'm in a stable relationship and he wants that.
I feel kinda bad just letting him sort himself out, but I guess it's all I can do.
About tough love, sure, what a depressed person wants to hear is 'DUDE, BE HAPPY!!' as if all the rest of us being happy is the result of pure crystallized condensed willpower since we're all sun gods and reality bends at our whims.
Anatomy is destiny. It's not us that create our moods. It's our biochemical status that dictates them. You're not happy because you make it so, you're happy because you're fortunate enough your situation - emotional, biological, so on - allows for it.
This is very difficult for healthy people to understand. We tend to put ourselves in the place of others, but that's not how it works when someone is ill. I wake up and go to the store to buy food. You can be in a state where you wake up and simply want to die, much less go to the store, and there's no apparent reason for it.
Quote from: Yutzster on Thu 22/02/2007 16:06:01
the point is, he's not even trying any of this stuff...
To me the point is that if you or anyone else suggest something bogus to him and he does try it, it's not helping anything and never will. It doesn't help, he gets disillusioned to medication thinking that if taking some random herb that a lady down the street suggested doesn't work what could actual medication do?
I'm just trying to express the point that "home remedies" and "alternative medicine" is 99% of the time complete crap. Homeopathy, herbal "remedies" and all this crap is a waste of time and money. Sure, change your diet, eat healthier, have more salads whatever, but don't take sugar pills said to contain the vibrations of healing herbs.
Keep telling yourself that, Yufster.... that he craves the stability.
Girls are so oblivious sometimes. Moreso than us "stupid" men.
And my shrink once told me to "get a blog." True story.
Bt
Sounds like a tough thing... I wish you luck. And don't take the "medications path"... I can valid Le Woltaire's point. I kind-of "worked" (made my Praktikum) in some kind of a charity organisation (the "Baunataler Werkstätten"), and some people there didn't have much left of their personality.
Anyhow, this may sound a little harsh, but... I wonder how he managed to stay depressed for a that long period of time. I only had something like that once, and it only lasted like 2 days, when I realised I was depressed and said to myself "You don't want to be an emo kiddie and spend the rest of your life being depressed, do you?"
Quote from: MrColossal on Thu 22/02/2007 16:37:58
Quote from: Yutzster on Thu 22/02/2007 16:06:01
the point is, he's not even trying any of this stuff...
To me the point is that if you or anyone else suggest something bogus to him and he does try it, it's not helping anything and never will. It doesn't help, he gets disillusioned to medication thinking that if taking some random herb that a lady down the street suggested doesn't work what could actual medication do?
I'm just trying to express the point that "home remedies" and "alternative medicine" is 99% of the time complete crap. Homeopathy, herbal "remedies" and all this crap is a waste of time and money. Sure, change your diet, eat healthier, have more salads whatever, but don't take sugar pills said to contain the vibrations of healing herbs.
I don't think they work either. The reason I suggested them to him was because he
does. And I could be wrong you know, they might work, even if it's only a placebo effect.
He refuses to try things he believes will help him (such as alternative medicine), let alone 'real' medication, etc.
My point is that he's in a place, in his head at the moment, where he doesn't even
want to try to help himself.
Akatosh... I don't know what kind of medication you're talking about. I'm talking about simple anti-depressants. I have two friends (christ I sound like I hang out with a bunch of emos...) who are currently taking meds for their depression. It certainly does not have this effect you've described... making them lose their personality, etc. It just helps regulate the serotonin levels in their brain, which is being depleted due to their depression.
Right, lets use a friend of mine as an example, in terms of medicine.
He became depressed and bitter, to the point of doing crazy things. This eventually causes him to go to the psychiatric/depressed section of the hospital. You know what I mean. They give him anti-depressents and goodness knows what, and he does indeed lose his personality. He becomes distant, and eventually seemingly insane.
Fast foward a year later. He gets put into a hospital that exists purely for people with his uncommon condition (that I won't get into). He gets put on a whole different set of drugs. These make him excited and hyper. Eventually I see a dramatic turn in him, and he's more or less back to his old self again, from five years ago.
So you see, in hospital they didn't give a shit, and just kept making him permenantly drowsy.
I think this is why one person is saying they do something different to what another thinks they do. (the drugs)
About medication:
Xanax: A really weird drug that makes you go all Jimmy Cameron ("Woo! I'm King of the World!1!"), and can really change how you perceive the world around you.
You still have the same thoughts but the Xanax overrides all other mental feedback, reducing the voice in your head to a faint whine. It's also incredibly addictive. It's a less than desirable state to spend your time, as paranoia can set in.
I wouldn't recommend it.
Seroxat: My long-term companion. I've been on varying strength doses of Seroxat since the late nineties. I think it works. I doesn't treat the core cause of depression, which in my case is OCD, but it allows the mind to cope in a productive manner. Initially there are side-effects (offical and non-official, most of which are documented at length), but these will pass. The only effect Seroxat had on my personality was to combat the frustrations I felt, which themselves were the cause of un-characteristic mood swings and voilent outbursts.
These are the most likely drug-based treatments (and/or possibly Valium) someone in your friend's position will be advised about.
Judging by my own experiences, Xanax is more trouble than it's worth. Seroxat has worked for me, but everybody can react differently.
Hope this helps.
I've been through depression myself, and I know a number of people who have dealt with it or are dealing with it.
I second what LimpingFish says about Xanax- I know someone who's had trouble with its addictive side.
Regarding losing one's personality due to medication- wow, people here have some extreme stories. But as Yutzster says, there are a lot of different medications ranging from harmless to incapacitating. Judging by her first post it sounds like she knows what she's talking about. Things like Citalopram or LimpingFish's Seroxat (SSRI's) are generally pretty benign.
I hope this isn't an issue for your friend, but I thought I'd ask. Is it possible he's using alcohol or another drug as an escape? I have a friend with linked addiction problems and depression, it's a big mess sometimes.
I personally would stay in touch. But I would be clear about boundaries, and make sure I wasn't encouraging my friend to be unhealthily dependent. He's lucky to have friends like you and your boyfriend, I'm sure some part of him is thankful even if he's not vocal about it and is outwardly jealous of your boyfriend.
When I was depressed in the past, I often wouldn't go out with friends, and I would respond to affection much the way your friend does. I would act in ways that kept me unhappy. Being passive and hopeless felt familiar and safe. I sat in my dark room listening to NIN with the shutters closed, staring at the computer and dwelling on how terrible everything was. I hung on to the bad things that had happened because I was afraid to move on and create a new life for myself.
If he's too hard to be around it might be necessary to spend less time with him or simply tell him you can't be friends with him this depressed. It would be a shame to lose a friend that way, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I hope it's a temporary depression, it sounds like he was a really wonderful person to be around until recently. Best wishes!
Get him some Dukes of Hazzard DVD's. (Series not the movie) If that doesn't cheer him up, nothing will.
Quote from: Sparky on Fri 23/02/2007 02:09:45
I hope this isn't an issue for your friend, but I thought I'd ask. Is it possible he's using alcohol or another drug as an escape? I have a friend with linked addiction problems and depression, it's a big mess sometimes.
hey Sparky, thanks for the reply :)
The answer is yes, he does use alcohol (not drugs ever, though) to 'drown' his sorrows... he claims he might as well just drink to drown his sorrows as 'it's the same thing, using mind-altering chemicals to make yourself feel better'. But of course Alcohol is a depressant and I've tried explaining that to him, but he pretty much doesn't seem to care or listen to what I'm saying.
I don't understand his absolute refusal to take medication. He says he wants to feel better, and yet he won't even try meds... even though I've ever-so-clearly explained what they do...
I've known a number of (clinically) depressed people, and the only advice I can give you is to step away. You can't help your friend, nobody can but he himself. Tell him that and make sure he understands.
If you really care about him (and it seems you do) just let him know you're there, and that you're a friend. Good luck with this, as it can be tough to see someone you care for in so much (self inflicted) pain.
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From your standpoint, what you should do depends primarily on what kind of person you are, what benefits you.
If you have a need to nurse/guide/help the less fortunate, you will probably do so regardless, but try to do it according to how much effort you can place in supporting someone else while still keeping your head above the water.
I believe depression is a indication of someone trying to cope with loss.
The two main factors that will shape how bad and long his depression gets are how important the lost thing was to him/his identity and how quickly he can adapt. Being "depressed" and "clinically depressed" are in my view the same thing, but the other is on a more extreme end of the spectrum.
The longer someone is depressed, the more that particular state of mind will influence that person's future self, so don't have any expectations that he will be the same person even if he recovers.
He might become more or less likeable, but the reason he is going through this thing is because his former self did not fit with the current situation anymore.
He will probably act seemingly irrationally, test out new ways to react to situations, but the reactions of others (you) to his actions are equally important as they will shape his reconfiguration.
An example: "Emos" might be kind of caught in a reconfiguration loop.
They lost something, grieve over it, people support them for their grief and they adapt to a life where they are more reliant on the support and attention of others in times of need.
Eventually people tire of their whining, they become depressed again and people support them. Repeat.
So, I am of the opinion that depressed people should not be left without help, but what helps me most when I am feeling down is honest dialogue, interaction and out-of-the-box-thinking/new experiences if I am feeling cornered.
This is just me though.
I also believe that the world of tomorrow will still be a place where people primarily fend for themselves and join forces with people that can further their agendas. He has to fight for himself, or you have to be strong enough to fight for two.
QuoteBeing "depressed" and "clinically depressed" are in my view the same thing, but the other is on a more extreme end of the spectrum.
That may be so, but some people are depressed like they're tall. Meaning, they're like that for no particular reason other than genetics, and they've been like that a long time and don't know any other way to be. It doesn't always have to be with losing something or someone.
I wonder if there are any advice services in the UK for people who have friends (or relatives) they genuinely feel they have untreated mental health problems. I know someone who I think has a untreated (or rather, badly treated) problem and I would be interested to know if there was some professional advice available. Much as I'm sure some of you guy's advice is good, the trouble is telling whose!
There are places to speak to for advice (I don't know of a general one for all mental illness though). Unfortunately there's not a lot they can tell you though, except reassuring you with the recommended approach to deal with someone with a aprticular problem. Ultimately people have to take action for themselves, unless it gets to the point they're a danger to someone. We have to wait until my Dad causes some serious problems for people before we can see about getting him sectioned, even though it happens like every year.
Quote from: Helm on Fri 23/02/2007 16:52:42
That may be so, but some people are depressed like they're tall. Meaning, they're like that for no particular reason other than genetics, and they've been like that a long time and don't know any other way to be. It doesn't always have to be with losing something or someone.
Sorry, that statement of mine came out a little unresearched (didn't check the definition of clinical depression and lazily associated it with just a more severe depression after reading Miez' post).
Also, my experiences with depression are mostly concerned with people that have at least appeared normal and happy at times, and I don't think I have ever met a person that would have been their entire existence in a stable, constant state of mind.
I do however imagine there is a possibility that a person's depression and mood can be purely the result of genetic factors and unaffected by external/enviromental factors/a change of circumstances.
I think we all have some sort of genetic predispositions, but that our intellect makes us somewhat flexible/adaptive and therefore able to stretch the limits set by our genes in order to adapt to the environment.
I'd imagine that even most of those people that have a predisposition for depression can still either wallow in it, try to get by or strive for happiness, just like a tall person can make an effort to shop in a tall-folks' store or walk naked and blame the shops that sell small clothes in his/her neighborhood. What this person does then, how much willpower they have can also be seen as a genetic predisposition, but I imagine that there still is the choice to fight or give in to the flow. External situations might have changed to more favorable by the point that a person has tired, spent all of his/her willpower.
So although I understand what you mean, I see length as more set in stone than mood/mental predisposition.
I am sorry, I don't believe in/understand free will. Whatever you do is all you could have done, I don't see the point in telling someone 'try harder to be happy'.
It might be that it will eventually present itself as a redundant/imaginary concept for me as well (I haven't yet been able to find it's source/essence through reasoning and I guess it relies on a "feeling in my gut" for the most part).
Though this same thing applies in much of my thinking since I still feel closer to agnosticism and do not find philosophical materialism preferable to any other ontology. I am not certain there exists a objective physical reality, independent of observers, I do not really know if I exist.
I find imaginary constructs/beliefs useful, I am currently happy with believing in "free will" which is probably the best reason or explanation I can give.
I don't really value consistency and reason over everything, I guess adaptation is my highest value, adapting my beliefs to survive, to get the most out of my presumed existence.
Although, I am intrigued how you feel about not believing/understanding it.
Does it bother you that you believe that it does not exist? Are you better off without it? In that case, I might try it myself, take my reasoning a little further, peel off some beliefs I hold on to.
I guess this should probably be a PM instead, but since you asked.
Well when I first experienced that the very foundation of human action in many ways, which we have so easily presupposed to be willpower, is meaningless... it sort of shortcircuited me (especially since at the time I was on a very willpower-aescetic path), but now I'm fine, a reasonably happy guy, going about doing things that please me. Given to an expected amount of ups and downs, I feel.
As with every philosophical baggage we carry that cannot be proven (not that anything can be reliably proven as with the problems with epistemology, but not even depended on in this case), I am for coming to terms with this realization: there are many, many other reasons we use free will other than it being a true supposition. As you say, if it's useful to you, go for it. Can you be happy without it? I think so. How do you abandon it? it's not just coming to terms with the words of it, it's experiencing it. I've been around free-will discussions for as long as I've been on the internet, and my position was always that it exists. No amount of talk, even reasonable talk, about determinism could shake that 'feeling in my gut'. It was only when certain experiences occured that this belief was shattered inside me, gone like it never was there. There was a period of readjustment, a lot of philosophical shedding of skin, and then here I was. On the outside not much has changed (beside my return to a lot of things I had cut off).
Most of the things we say every day to each other are unfounded lies that serve many many different things than the persuit for truth. They're about feeling better, extinguishing social anxiety, about coming out on top or playing an angle, all about personal survival, that occur deep within your mechanism, uninfluenced by 'you'. We are automations that use words as the debugger of our internal machine code. Machine code which will make as much sense to us if we could look at it directly as it makes sense to you when you read
01011001011011110111010100100000011001000110111101101110
00100111011101000010000001110010011001010110000101101100
0110110001111001001000000110010101111000011010010111001101110100
The debugger loops back data and realization and it self-influences, upgrades, evolves, but it's all internal code that the small pathetic part of it which we call 'self-awareness' is both oblivious to and better off being. Words aren't meaningless. They're meaninful inside in a place where we can't look with our microscopic eye, and even if we could all we would see would be unfathomable oceans of data where every part influences every other part in such complex interfacing structure.
The belief of oneself existence is similar to the belief in free will, in that it really means nothing concrete and can be similarly removed, and would also have very little to no effect in every-day life just as long as you kept communicating for all these other reasons besides 'truth'. True solipsism is just going about saying things, but not believing anything. More people are solipsists than those that know what the word means. Philosophy is useless as persuit of truth.
I don't think putting pressure on sick people using a lie such as free will helps them at all though. It's no longer fun and games. When you are late for a date and your date tells you "please don't do that again", and you say 'I will do my best', though you know you're not in such fine control of your intention, that's fun and games. When one is constently feeling awful about themselves and can't stop crying and all that, and you tell them 'try to be more happy!' then you're a jackass.
People who go through psychotherapy are often put through analysis by doctors. This analysis gives them the space to communicate with themselves (not with their analyst) and arrive in certain personal reflections that help them be happy. The analyst tries to cut from these reflections, away those that could be feeding neuroses. Like, a depressed person would temporarily arrive to feeling better by self-reflecting "If I just can control EVERY ASPECT OF MY LIFE, I will be happy again!" This could lead to a period of happiness as the lie works and the person survives. However it can lead to control neuroses and such, and the work of the doctor is to hear what you say and steer you towards a comfortable lie which will work for you. This is not bad. I don't believe in anything that is true either. I am happy. I hope other people can be happy too, if it takes lies, so be it. The deal is trying to achieve an amount of lie-baggage that is not overbearing, and that which helps you socialize and carry on the stuff that will keep you reasonably happy.
Sometimes analysis is not enough - because it deals with a very non-scientific (analysts are not scientists) process: it messes with the debugger. It's trying to influence what the debugger sends back into the program for alteration. This is a very personal procedure that will never be totally codified. Then people try medication. Medication does a few things to your body that we know, and a lot that we do not. In comparison to analysis, it's a brute-force approach. Instead of fixing you from the bebugger, slowly ever so slowly making you feed back the data to your system so now you're over the problem, the drugs just alter your biochemistry themselves, sending 'I feel happy' dopamine, endorphine, whatever else you need. These may not fix the psychological fixation issue, but may provide a good groundwork for the debugger to start considering the options that will lead to long-term recovery. In any case, there is no medication without combined analysis, but there is analysis without medication. It's all up to what the severity of the symptoms are.
Most people on depression meds will continue to take depression meds for the rest of their lives. But that's not so bad either, if the only sideeffect is that constant need of them.
There are two things that Helm said that stuck with me.
Quote from: Helm on Sat 24/02/2007 00:47:11
Most of the things we say every day to each other are unfounded lies that serve many many different things than the persuit for truth. They're about feeling better, extinguishing social anxiety, about coming out on top or playing an angle, all about personal survival, that occur deep within your mechanism, uninfluenced by 'you'.
Agreed. For example, I've found a lot of the time people compliment others to make them feel better. Really this has no effect whatsoever. I believe praise should only be given to people who have made an effort to do better.
Although this discussion is getting into a bit of a predeterminalism/free will debate, I'll just say I do believe that people have choice, but I think with depressed people (and I speak from my own experience and from interacting with others) have trouble seeing their choices.
I do think it's helpful for some to highlight options for depressed people when they need advice, like someone visiting a therapist. But ultimately, yes, you can't just say, "Try and be happy" because it essentially acts as a mask for the problem without actually rectifying it to any degree.
QuoteI don't think putting pressure on sick people using a lie such as free will helps them at all though. It's no longer fun and games. When you are late for a date and your date tells you "please don't do that again", and you say 'I will do my best', though you know you're not in such fine control of your intention, that's fun and games. When one is constently feeling awful about themselves and can't stop crying and all that, and you tell them 'try to be more happy!' then you're a jackass.
Agreed also. Saying "Try to be more happy!" puts an expectation on a person that they MUST... BE... HAPPY... Like I said, I think a depressed person must put in a certain degree of effort to actually rectify the problem, such as understanding their self, communicating with others (or in some cases, learning to better communicate with others), choose certain steps to rectify the problem.
And especially with chemical inblances. If I remember correctly, Yufster's friend has been perscribed medication that he should be taking. If he's choosing not to take this medication, okay, fine, his choice. But as Yufster mentions it's seriously affecting his personal health and relationships with others.
"Try to be more happy!" does diddly-squat, and in some cases has a negative impact.