Game of Thrones (and the gratuitous nudity therein), split from Oblivion thread

[Crimson Wizard]

A couple days ago, I had this conversation with someone else who is currently reading the books. He was actually surprised at how the books were more gratuitous than the show in a lot of ways.

I might be misunderstanding the meaning of the word "gratuitous", for I did not find anything gratuitous in the book. It describes horrors of war as seen by certain characters, why is that gratuitous?

[waheela]

A couple days ago, I had this conversation with someone else who is currently reading the books. He was actually surprised at how the books were more gratuitous than the show in a lot of ways.

I might be misunderstanding the meaning of the word "gratuitous", for I did not find anything gratuitous in the book. It describes horrors of war as seen by certain characters, why is that gratuitous?

I've actually never read the book, so I can't really argue the point. It's nice to hear your differing perspective though.

[Retro Wolf]

I love the books and the show. I also love the female body, I am a man after all!
But when I'm watching Game of Thrones I can't help but think it can be a bit too much sometimes, I don't watch shows like these to be aroused.... that's for Paul's private time later on...

[arj0n]

Love the show and love that throne:

[Snarky]

I always find it fascinating how when you set on-set photos such as this, the sets, props, costumes and make-up all look incredibly fake. It's only with the right light and camera lenses that it seems (more or less) "real."

[arj0n]

That's true indeed Snarky

[Baron]

OK, so I read through this thread and I still have no clue what this game is about OR (more importantly) the quality of the nudity therein.  That guy in Arj0n's screenshot looked pretty clothed to me (although he might be exposing his crotch... it's hard to tell with his hands placed as they are).  And what's this Posse Pod's Prostitute thing that Ascovel keeps talking about?!?  Basically I demand screenshots if I'm to believe there is any gratuitous nudity out there for entertainment purposes.  Otherwise I'm going to have to assume that your debate is merely theoretical and you might as well be arguing how many angels can fit on the tip of a pin.

[Andail]

Apparently Spartacus has a lot of gratuitous nudity. If you want medieval-ish combat and no nudity, then Vikings would be a great choice.

I don't think anyone in here has expressed a desire to avoid nudity, full stop.

I want to make perfectly clear that I'm all for all sorts of nudity and sexual content, as long as it's not sexist objectification. I hate it when people accuse others of being prude or conservative (not that it's happening here and now, just saying) for voicing criticism when it comes to these questions, instead of understanding the real issue.

Showing people perform consensual sexual activities = fine. In my book, there are no limits here. Go crazy - as long as they're adult and everyone's aboard, I don't care if they dress each other in duct tape and have poop sex. I may not enjoy watching, but that's another thing.

Letting a girl strip while her brother eyes her up as some kind of perverted cattle inspection for absolutely no conceivable reason = not fine. It's gratuitous and calculated, just meant to garner attention. It's objectifying and we don't need it.

[Snarky]

I would argue that although it's clearly calculated and exploitative, it's not gratuitous. The nudity in that particular scene served a very definite narrative purpose:

If I remember correctly, it's in the very first episode, before viewers know much about the universe where the series takes place. One important storytelling task at this point is to make viewers understand how this world works, and to establish contrast between the different players.

The scene establishes Viserys as a creep, giving associations to Caligula (which creates a sense of the former Targaryen dynasty as depraved and decadent; helpful at that early point for viewers to grasp the extensive backstory). His callous ambition and ruthless exploitation is portrayed through many different scenes, but this is surely one of the most striking.

Treating his sister as a piece-of-meat bargaining chip demonstrates the status of noblewomen in this society, their most important role being for political marriages and breeding (which is important to keep in mind so that the decision to marry Sansa to Joffrey doesn't seem incomprehensibly cruel), while at the same making it clear that she is actually a very valuable asset (if only, at first, for her beauty and ancestry): in fact, as we gradually come to realize, far more valuable than Viserys himself. The incestuous overtones foreshadow later revelations (Cersei and Jaime; and, as we later learn, the earlier Targaryens), and also provides dramatic tension by setting up a potential conflict between Viserys and Khal Drogo, though this isn't really developed further.

But most importantly, it serves to anchor Daenerys' character development. Her evolution from terrorized victim and instrument of men's will to a strong-willed leader in her own right, Khaleesi and Mother of Dragons, is the backbone of the whole Dothraki arc in Season 1. The effectiveness of that arc depends on her being as meek and vulnerable as possible at the outset, and her passive acceptance of this shameful treatment is a vivid demonstration of that. Also, few things establish sympathy as strongly as seeing someone unjustly mistreated. It's not a coincidence that Daenerys starts and ends the season naked: the callback makes the contrast between who she was and who she has become all the more striking, and satisfying.

TL;DR version:

It's objectifying and we don't need it.

The objectification is the whole point, since it establishes important plot points, character traits, information about the setting and tone. Maybe that doesn't justify the shock value, given that the show is ultimately still pretty frivolous, but there's definitely a reason for it beyond just titillation and attention.

[Andail]

Well, if it's not gratuitous as long as you can find any kind of explanation within the narrative, it'd be hard to find something truly gratuitous. Even if every darn woman in the show was depicted nude all the time (and let's not forget super fit and always with make up on), you could just say it's to demonstrate what a patriarchal and sexist society they live in.

Isn't it odd that no matter where they go, no matter how dirty or remote or run down a place they visit, there'll always be a female character there who's improbably sexy and just a cut-scene away from dropping all her clothes?

And, if you don't think the qualities you ascribe to Viserys would come across while at least letting his sister keep her undies on, I think you're trying too hard to defend it.

[Snarky]

What I was trying to get across was that I don't think you have to "try" very hard at all to find compelling storytelling reasons for that particular scene. I think Game of Thrones has a lot of gratuitous nudity, but in this instance, the nudity is used to help communicate a lot of fairly important information. So no, it's not gratuitous for telling this story. (I get the impression you're conflating "tasteful," or "portraying nudity/sexuality in a healthy, positive, non-objectifying way" with "gratuitous" as opposites, but they're in fact quite independent of each other. "Showing people perform consensual sexual activities" is probably more likely to be gratuitous on this show, since it will usually have less bearing on the story or characters.) Whether we find that story worth telling in this way is another matter.

I'm actually not all that keen on Game of Thrones, in part because I think it's ultimately a bit too frivolous to support the ugly stuff it dwells on (murders, rapes, decapitations, massacres etc.). And upholding Hollywood/fantasy tropes like practically every woman being gorgeous, impeccably styled and frequently scantily clad (or in this case naked) is one of those things I think undermines its "seriousness."

[Mati256]

No nudity in the last episode but it was mind blowing!! 

[Anian]

No nudity in the last episode but it was mind blowing!! 

Indeed, awesome episode, many awesome moments. And great hint in the previous episode:

Spoiler

Cersei talks to Marge about what happened to the Lord of Castamere who rebelled against the Lannisters, and that song was at the end of the 2nd season http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECewrAld3zw (song is called Rains of Castamere) and it's supposed to be like an actual song they sing in the actual world. Lyrics say it pretty much all.

So when the band started playing that song I just thought "damn, shit is about to go down".

[close]

[Snarky]

Has anyone considered a Game of Thrones AGS fan game? What sort of thing would you want to do?

[Anian]

Has anyone considered a Game of Thrones AGS fan game? What sort of thing would you want to do?

How about not making an AGS fan game out if? There's now an official RTS and RPG game, with I think a cards game (digital) in the production as well. The world is expanded as all hell, very well I might add, what kind of a contribution would an AGS adventure game, with limited to no budget, have in all this?

BUt, other than, that, you'd need somebody that doesn't actually fight that much, but talks his way out of things...so basically the narrow selection would fall on Tyrion. (I haven't read all the books yet, so I don't know if he is indeed alive in the end though, please no spoilers!)

[Snarky]

How about not making an AGS fan game out if? There's now an official RTS and RPG game, with I think a cards game (digital) in the production as well. The world is expanded as all hell, very well I might add, what kind of a contribution would an AGS adventure game, with limited to no budget, have in all this?

Such an utterly bizarre argument! What contribution does an AGS fan game make to any of the other things people make fan games of? Star Wars? Doctor Who? Star Trek?

People make them because it's fun to explore a setting they enjoy, and play them for the same reason.

BUt, other than, that, you'd need somebody that doesn't actually fight that much, but talks his way out of things...so basically the narrow selection would fall on Tyrion. (I haven't read all the books yet, so I don't know if he is indeed alive in the end though, please no spoilers!)

Or Bran (or Bran + Hodor: I can see a lot of potential gameplay in that), or Varys, or Daenerys, or Sansa (or really any of the female characters apart from Brienne and Ygritte), or Jaime post-unhanding, or Petyr, or one of the Maesters...

Or you could make a game with occasional fighting. Or you could focus on one of the many stretches of events without armed struggle (I don't know why it would matter whether Tyrion makes it to the end; I wasn't suggesting that a fangame should try to adapt all seven novels). Or you could make up a new character in some less-explored part of the universe.

Has it occurred to you that one of the most popular adventure-fangame subjects is Indiana Jones, based on a series of action movies?

[Anian]

Such an utterly bizarre argument! What contribution does an AGS fan game make to any of the other things people make fan games of? Star Wars? Doctor Who? Star Trek?

People make them because it's fun to explore a setting they enjoy, and play them for the same reason.

But GoT is so character relationship based. Unlike the examples you've given, nobody actually goes on "an adventure" (not the gameplay but an actual journey with a cause and such). I just don't think it's very compatible, unlike SW, ST, Doctor Who etc. Apart from SW universe (which gets bigger and bigger), all those (and Indiana Jones) have an episodic format where you can put any story in that this character might have done, while GoT is a story of several characters at a certain point in history. 

Or Bran (or Bran + Hodor: I can see a lot of potential gameplay in that), or Varys, or Daenerys, or Sansa (or really any of the female characters apart from Brienne and Ygritte), or Jaime post-unhanding, or Petyr, or one of the Maesters...

Or you could make a game with occasional fighting. Or you could focus on one of the many stretches of events without armed struggle (I don't know why it would matter whether Tyrion makes it to the end; I wasn't suggesting that a fangame should try to adapt all seven novels). Or you could make up a new character in some less-explored part of the universe.

Has it occurred to you that one of the most popular adventure-fangame subjects is Indiana Jones, based on a series of action movies?

Again maybe some of them (I guess it depends on who you like in the GoT), except Sansa (again, I don't know what happens with her further down the road), who is one passive wallflower at this point. I think GoT world is a better setting for an "action" style game with deep story, than it is for an adventure game. That's about it.

And then there's Indiana Jones, well the character and the "world" of IJ is very much a adventure game turned to film (or the other way around), it has "built in" puzzles, mystery and action sequences.

It's not like you need my permission, fan away if you want.

[Igor Hardy]

Has anyone considered a Game of Thrones AGS fan game? What sort of thing would you want to do?

The Chronicles of Young Little Finger could be interesting. Or Tywin Lannister. Both seem to have changed a lot.

But to be honest I would prefer another Indiana Jones game with sprites from Fate of Atlantis or similar. I can't seem to forget that game and how fun it was.

[Snarky]

But GoT is so character relationship based. Unlike the examples you've given, nobody actually goes on "an adventure" (not the gameplay but an actual journey with a cause and such). I just don't think it's very compatible, unlike SW, ST, Doctor Who etc. Apart from SW universe (which gets bigger and bigger), all those (and Indiana Jones) have an episodic format where you can put any story in that this character might have done, while GoT is a story of several characters at a certain point in history. 

Again I have to wonder if you give these things any thought at all as you're writing them.

"Character/relationship-based": What other genre of computer game is better suited to incorporating that?
"No on goes on an adventure"... Well, let's just sit back and think about that, shall we? What are the current storylines?

-Jon Snow with the wildlings: an adventure
-Samwell & Gilly in the wilderness: an adventure
-Bran & Hodor & Rickon & Osha & Jojen & Meera: an adventure
-Arya & The Hound: an adventure
-Theon: not currently an adventure
-Jaime & Brienne: an adventure
-King's Landing crew: not an adventure
-Stannis & Melisandra & Co: occasional adventures
-Daenerys & army: an adventure (with a very large party)

I'm not suggesting all of these would make for good adventure game material, but it's absurd to deny that the show is chock full of archetypal "adventure"-type journeys and missions and quests.

But in any case, what does it matter? "Adventure game" is just a name, not a content requirement. I'd go as far as to say that most AGS games probably don't involve an "adventure" in this sense, so why couldn't you have a fan game set entirely in King's Landing, or Winterfell, or that inn everyone keeps visiting? (The Adventures of Hot Pie!)

Again maybe some of them (I guess it depends on who you like in the GoT), except Sansa (again, I don't know what happens with her further down the road), who is one passive wallflower at this point. I think GoT world is a better setting for an "action" style game with deep story, than it is for an adventure game. That's about it.

Well, I think Sansa could have a lot of potential since there are so many "what ifs" in her story. You could do a game exploring all the different paths her fate could have taken had she done anything different. (I suspect most of them would have led to her death, which is sort of a vindication of her strategy of extreme caution. She's now married to the most decent member of the most powerful family in the realm, remember.)

And then there's Indiana Jones, well the character and the "world" of IJ is very much a adventure game turned to film (or the other way around), it has "built in" puzzles, mystery and action sequences.

Indy had a few elements that were suited to adventure games (a few puzzles and lots of exotic locations), and many that were much better suited to other genres: running from danger, arcade-type action sequences (on tank belts, the top of moving trains, mine cars, etc.), fisticuffs, almost constant life-and-death situations, killing Nazis by the dozen, and a "never look back" approach to storytelling. The adventure games made it work by emphasizing the elements that would work in the game, and including some of those other things in mini-games or cut-scenes, but it should be kept in mind that they are actually quite unlike the movies.

Similarly, I think Game of Thrones has some elements that would be very well suited for adventure games, and some that would be much harder to adapt. Since the books/show and the world are so sprawling, there are endless options for what to focus on. Plus there are already enough divergences between versions (I'm told) to justify modifying details to better suit your game needs.

How about playing as Ned Stark, investigating the death of your predecessor? A Conquests of the Longbow-style game about Zombie Robin Hood and his not-so-merry men? A game set north of the wall, playing a character kind of like Osha whose homestead is destroyed by White Walkers, and decides to seek a new life on the other side of the wall? Playing as one of Varys's spies, trying to keep on top of one of King's Landing's many plots? Or an assassin sent after Daenerys, having to decide where your loyalties lie?

It's not like you need my permission, fan away if you want.

I'm not actually interested enough in the series to want to be involved in anything like that. I just thought it was a fun thing to brainstorm around, since it's a popular thing that isn't yet related to adventure games in any way, and where an adaptation could have (in my opinion) a lot of potential but also have to overcome some challenges.

[Mati256]

Theres also the path taken by the RPG. It's set before the king's death and it features two new characters that occasionally cross paths with the main characters of the books.