Give it up for Pope Benedict XVI

[Goldmund]

Excuse me, but I don't buy all this "You had to be in Hitler Jugend or die!!!11!" talk.

I guess all the german emmigrants of 1933-1939 were just tourists and escaped to Switzerland, USA and South America for the kick of it?


P.S. Of course, I don't suggest that Ratzinger doesn't regret his past; I bet he does.

[Adamski]

Doesn't Ratzinger sound like the name of the villain in a 1980s children cartoon?

[Pumaman]

Yeah, I'm sure I remember the Turtles fighting him in one epic episode.

[SSH]

So, Benedict was John Paul's right hand man, and JP chose almost all the cardinals and then the cardinals vote for JP's man... what a surprise!

Anyway, I feel disappointed that they didn't take the opportunity to get rid of the completely unjustifiable doctrine banning contraception. I mean, biologially it just doesn't make sense. Abstention, which they allow causes the sperm to be reabsorbed into the body, and the eggs to end in a sanitary towel. Vasectomy, which they don't allow, simply causes the sperm to stay in the body even if ejaculation occurs, same effect to the sperm as abstention!

On the other hand, having seen both my daughters look like babies in very detailed 12-week ultrasounds, and having seen that people's gut reaction to a pregnant woman being assualted is worse than a non-pregnant woman, I really can understand an anti-abortion stance. My children were people after only 12 weeks from being a single cell and I can't say that anyone else's unborn children from at least that early don't have a right to live.

I have a kind of cheated feeling about this pope, and he seems like a kind of imposter to me, untrustworthy, but then JP2 was pope since I was 3 so I guess that's just a gut reaction to change. I can't justify the feeling other than my opinions on contraception, though.

[Moox]

Actually the reason they change there names is because there is already a saint with the same name, for instance with ratzinger there is already a Saint Joseph so he changes the name for the slight change that he will be become a saint. In latin Bendedict translates to speak the good. Bene being good and dict being speak/tell

[Kinoko]

Isn't it also something to do with having a more Italian sounding name? Being the leader of the Vatican (and usually coming from another country entirely...)

[theyak]

As far as I've known, it has neither to do with needing a strictly latin name or their current name belonging to a saint.  They choose a papal name as a change of identification.  As the representative of the church, they choose a name that will embody their particular beliefs or stances.  Or, they may choose the name of another pope whose accomplishments they wish to emulate.  For example, the Ratman chose his name because Benedict XV was a proponent of peace during World War 1.

[Bernie]

>Goldmund: Excuse me, but I don't buy all this
>"You had to be in Hitler Jugend or die!!!11!" talk.

History books and what my grandmother and grandfather told me indicate that it was either move with the masses or go down. I never said you'd die for sure if you didn't, but it was a likely possibility. I know I'll never ever blame anyone for participating in Hitler Jugend.

Of course, in the case of Ratzinger, the press will definately come up with a few nice headlines. Nazi pope!!1JeffK!1.

>Goldmund: I guess all the german emmigrants of 1933-1939 were just tourists
>and escaped to Switzerland, USA and South America for the kick of it?

Hmm... this doesn't have anything to do with Hitler Jugend at all as it was a youth group thing. But still, it's not like everyone who was against Hitler had the option to escape to some other country. Especially if you were poor.

In the last few years of the war, if you tried to escape or stated your negative opinion of hitler and his followers to loudly, you were likely to be labeled a traitor and be imprisoned or worse. It's not like those nazi KZ things were for foreigners and jews only, a lot of germans also died in those.

In Germany and Austria, WWII is being focused on quite thoroughly in history lessons at school. Everything I know about it came from school and my grannie's tales.

Ack, I hate discussing WWII. I'm not even sure if I'm getting your point about the emmigrants bit, Goldmund. Oh well.

By the way, this is also the first time I'm engaging in one of those internet forum discussions. This post also took me over 30 minutes to write. I'm such a slowpoke.

[Nacho]

I started the debate, somehow, because for me, the nazi regime and what it caused in the minds of million of culturized and smart people like the germans were (still are, but talking specifically of the perod between wars) is amazing (Not in the good sense of the word).

But we must put the debate into a context, and I am not really sure if we can blame Josephus to belong to the Hitler Jugend... I've heard this days he escaped as soon as he had the oportunity, because he did not agree with the things that were being told in that meetings. If that is true, it can be said that he put his life in danger for his beliefs.

But the source is the "Cadena Cope"... A Spanish radio channel which is very close to the Church. I don't want to start a discussion deffending the pope having only this (quite probably) biased version.

I could google for biographies, but  don't really have time or interest. But I'd like to read a short briefing of any of the agsers if you have time.

Thanks

[Venus]

But I'd like to read a short briefing of any of the agsers if you have time.

And here it is. Got it from Wikipedia:

When Benedict turned 14 in 1941, he was drafted into the Hitler Youth, membership of which was legally required after 1938. National Catholic Reporter correspondent and biographer John Allen writes that Benedict was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings. Benedict has mentioned that a Nazi mathematics professor arranged reduced tuition payments for him at seminary. While this normally required documentation of attendance at Hitler Youth activities, according to Benedict, his professor arranged that the young seminary student did not need to attend those gatherings to receive a scholarship.

In 1943, when he was 16, Benedict was drafted with many of his classmates into the Flak (anti-aircraft corps). They were posted first to Ludwigsfeld, north of Munich, as part of a detachment responsible for guarding a BMW aircraft engine plant. He served in the Flak (antiaircraft brigade) defending the BMW plant (and its slave laborers) from marauding Allied bombers. Next they were sent to Unterföhring, northwest of Munich, and briefly to Innsbruck. From Innsbruck their unit went to Gilching to protect the jet fighter base and to attack Allied bombers as they massed to begin their runs towards Munich. At Gilching, Benedict served in telephone communications.

On September 10, 1944, his class was released from the Corps. Returning home, Benedict had already received a new draft notice for the Reichsarbeitdienst. He was posted to the Hungarian border area of Austria which had been annexed by Germany in the Anschluss of 1938. Here he was trained in the "cult of the spade" and upon the surrender of Hungary to Russia was put to work setting up anti-tank defences in preparation for the expected Red Army offensive. On November 20, his unit was released from service.

Benedict again returned home. After three weeks passed, he was drafted into the army at Munich and assigned to the infantry barracks in the center of Traunstein, the city near which his family lived. After basic infantry training, his unit was sent to various posts around the city. They were never sent to the front.

In late April or early May, days or weeks before the German surrender, Benedict deserted after two years of service in the German army. He left the city of Traunstein and returned to his village on the outskirts. Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even though punishable by death; executions, frequently extrajudicial, continued to the end. In the days preceding imminent German defeat, however, many deserted for fear of the more salient Allied threat. Diminished morale, and the greatly diminished risk of execution from a preoccupied German military, also contributed notably to pervasive desertion. He was briefly interned in an open air prisoner of war camp near Ulm and was released on June 19, 1945.

Most information about Benedict's wartime activities is based on his own memoirs and accounts from his brother, Georg.

Generally, I don't blame anyone for being a member of the Hitler Jungend or the BDM as they were still kids at that time and it's not that easy to leave the country at the age of 14 or 16. The other option you had, was simply refusing to be a member which caused a lot of trouble. Just being a former member of the Hitler Jungend doesn't make you a Nazi. Actually, I know quite a number of people that had to attend the HJ and did so, but fought for the resistance secretly in their free time.
I do blame people for not doing anything against that regime and their crimes. Most people just turned their heads and looked away and quite a lot truely believed in the Nazi's philosophy. But I certainly can't blame the kids for their parents' faults.

Anyway, Nazi or not, Ratzinger is very conservative, to say the least. Like JP II, he will be responsible for millions of people dying of AIDS. He will be responsible for thousands of women dying because of illegal abbortions. He will be responsible for thousands of prejudices towards homosexuals. I could go on like this for hours...but I won't.
Guess, you already figured out yourself, that I'm not very fond of this Pope. Well, I wasn't of JP II either, so it doesn't really change anything for me. I'm still waiting for the Church to come out of medieval times...

[Bernie]

Aye, I'm not fond of that man, too. Apparently, the catholic church has no intention to change anything anytime soon (or at least those cardinal guys who elected him), otherwise a better pope would have been choosen.

I wonder why I care at all. I used to be protestant and became atheist 4 years ago because of people like Ratzinger and their conservative attitude and... other things.
Hmm... I probably care because so many people will listen to that guy and believe whatever he'll say. Even political parties do, to some extent. Crazy.

[Disco]

Apparently, the catholic church has no intention to change anything anytime soon

This scary little girl seems to think otherwise (taken from my city's newspaper yesterday)-


The question was "What do you think of the new Pope?"
I'm not going with the whole Hitler angle, but isn't there something Hitleresque about what the girl said? I know she's only 10, but this is a good example of why I don't believe. The homogenization of cultures and raising childeren to think one and only one way  is a horrible thought for me. I doubt she knows who Siddhartha is or Confucious is or whoever, and if she does she will likely associate them with "heathens".

I should blur the surname, but....nah

[Kinoko]

Yeah, we don't need to protect children. ^_^ Let's hope someone pays her a little "visit" and scares the christians out of her.

[Las Naranjas]

There's christians inside her? *generic paedophile joke*

[Redwall]

Shouldn't it be *Catholic priest paedophile joke* rather than *generic...*?

[Nacho]

Thanks for the info Venus.

Anyway... I wouldn't say he's going to be RESPONSIBLE of the deaths by AIDS in Africa. You seem to blame them because the people in Africa hears the message of "Don't use condoms"

But what the church actually says is "don't have sexual relationships out of the marriage".

I know it's stupid by the church to believe that people is not going to have sex, and they should say "if you have relationships, use condom". ButÃ,  if the people don't follow the main law "don't make sex!" they shouldn't shelter in the religion to make sex without condom. That must be blamed to the people, not to the church. (My point is: If you don't follow the main law of the church, be honest with yourself and don't follow the second law ,implicid in the first, and use condom)

That is like this: The authority says "if you're drunk, don't drive, so, don't put your safe belt" (because you shouldn't be driving).

And then drunk people starts to blame to the authorities that its relatives are dying for not using the belt, whereas they should blame their relatives for driving.

We might agree that, if you're putting your life in danger for driving drunk, at least you should put your safe belt, but we can't really blame the authorities for focusing in avoiding the main danger, in spite of encouraging people to use the pasive deffenses.

I don't like the nowadays church a lot, neither... but let's not blame them what they don't deserve to be blamed for. Their point here is old fashioned, but saying that they're "forcing" people to have relationships without condom, and that people is stupid enough to follow it, it's going too far.

People in Africa is having sex freely... And if they don't use condom that's a choice they're choosing freely.

[Venus]

I get your point, Farlander, but I think it's not that simple. A very big problem is for example cheating in marriage. Often women are infected by their husbands without their knowledge, because the husband cheated on his wife, got himself infected and as the use of condoms is not allowed, passes it on to his wife. Another example is that a lot of children get infected without even having sex just by being born to a mother with AIDS. As they are not allowed to use comdoms, they either have the possibility to not have sex or to pass it on to their wives. People are forced into prostitution and refuse to use condoms, because the Catholic chruch tells them it's a sin. I've recently read a report that in some cases, priests and nuns in Africa told the people that condoms are useless anyway, because the virus can pass through.
I'm not saying, the church is responsible for every single person dying because of AIDS, but definitely for quite a lot deaths and if they wouldn't stick to this principle it would be a lot easier to fight this disease.
Another problem is that having sex before marriage is something you can sort of stumble into. It happens even among the most Catholic people, just like you can end up driving drunk simply because you are too drunk to think. Using a condom is something you have to plan, because you have to get one. So, even if you are deeply Catholic and don't want to have sex with someone else than your husband/wife, you can still end up doing it more or less by mistake (getting drunk, simply the tempation etc.). If you are not allowed to use condoms, you're not very likely to have one with you in such moments. It's like forbidding to even install seatbelts, to get back to your example. You won't even have a chance to put them on if you end up driving drunk.
So, imo, the church and therefore the pope are responsible to a very high degree for what happens in Africa.

[Paper Carnival]

I can't understand why the Pope is supposed to be all-correct when a Pope can disagree with what the previous one said. They can't be all correct