A 15 year old teen, was shot dead from a policeman in the night of the 6th of December. Since then, all hell hos broken loose, with no end in sight (still to early).
It does appear to me that these are the results of the recent crisis, which seemed to somehow overpass Greece, but obviously didn't!
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/10525742.asp?scr=1
and
http://www.theage.com.au/world/greece-riots-violence-erupts-after-teen-shooting-20081207-6t2m.html
Ouch. Seriously... OUCH. I mean, street brawls? Barricades? Fire bombs? Tear gas? Good thing there are no casualities yet (apart from the unlucky teen), but if it goes on like that... urgh. I hope people calm down before a catastrophe happens.
Indeed, Akatosh... What is this thread about, Nik? We can only send our sympathies and hope nothing *really* bad happens (apart from the unfortunate incident with the dead teenager...)
So... That. Hope everybody is ok and it ends asap.
This thread is about the news and the situation which seems pretty fucked up right now. The tension is rising actually, as more news come in, from the unfortunate shooting of the teenager...
There's nothing we can do really, but I just felt like sharing the bad news...
Jesus, that's ridiculous. I hate it when people decide they're living in a bad 'what if' novel and do stupid stuff like this.
Just a passing remark:
I do believe the dead kid should be alive and well and rebelling. But
was not shot dead while strolling in the park holding hands with somebody young and cute.
It seems that everybody forgets to mention the situation under which this **** event happened.
Passer by: I do agree largely with what you're saying.
The kid is being hailed (in facebook and everywhere else) as a "hero". Even worst there are "eye witnesses" (who happen to belong in anti-goverment groups), who mention the group of kids are "innocent". Of course by no means the cops should shoot, but never the less it's a slightly more complicated situation than an "innocent hero" is being shot just like that... :(
Sounds awful Nik! You keep that family of yours safe!
Those policemen have the coolest looking helmets. Looks like something from a Stanley Kubrick film.
A "hero"? More like an unfortunate idiot.
Both sides are to blame, the cop should have fired a warning shot (I don't blame the other cop for throwing a stun) and the kid and his buddies shouldn't be pelting cops anyway.
~Trent
Unfortunately, that boy will now be whatever media makes him. I hate it when they use a death to sell some additional issues.
Nick, "thanks" for sharing those links; I must admit that without them, I would've missed the issue completely. And that alone is frustrating: that over here, hardly one and a half country away, these flares are "non-existent news".
(edit: You know how to read the quotation marks around "thanks")
I' ve read different versions about "the shooting". Well... to be honest, the Spanish media is basically saying that the policemen ejecuted the guy for doing nothing, because they feel in the mood of killing someone that day.
I don't believe it... I am not that naïve to think there there are no cowboys in every policial corp in every country, but I simply can believe that one day a policeman wakes up and says "Okay, I am going to shoot to the first kid I see".
Can someone tell me what happened? Short brief, please, I don' t want to read the links :)
From what I've read a group of thirty attacked the police car in which the two policemen were patrolling. The police stopped the car to disperse the group because I guess that would be their job. Instead of dispersing the group continued throwing stones and other projectiles and advanced on the officers.
The article I read also said that it is not uncommon for large groups to ambush the police. It also said that these people responsible are leftists.
I' ve read that as the "police version". And then, a battery of "witnesses" telling that the police, basically, executed the guy. O_O
Stay safe Nik!!
The victim's friends will, of course, say that the cops straight-up executed their friend. They'll actually believe it too (even if it was strictly self-defense on the cop's part they'll never see/admit it). The media will, of course, take the side of the story that is more dramatic and spin it from that angle.
I think it sucks that the young fella lost his life, don't get me wrong. But he assaulted a police car ... did he think the cops in the car were going to throw candy at him? It was a stupid thing to do (no matter what his reason was for doing it) and that level of stupidity had dire consequences.
When things like this happens, I allways have the same feeling, which is sorta: "Ouch! those polices are beasts! How can they have such an easy trigger? Wow!... Eeeeerm... Yes... but.. But I think that things like that are never going to happen to me, since I don' t like to mess in that situations".
Same here. Death allways sucks... But seems that death finds those who like to tempt their fortune.
Darth: Indeed what you say.
It is, however, rather truthful that in most parts of the world you don't expect to walk towards a car, with no weapon on you and get shot dead... :-\ It certainly was stupid but it does appear that they were 'taunting' the police, rather than anything else. They were a group of around 30 youths, having too much fun and being morons...
There's a lot of trouble in Greece over the recent years, exactly with the same people. You get leftists making a parade for the... 17th of November, (important date for greece, thus the name of the terrorist group in greece), and you also get some groups around smashing things. Every single year. It's not uncommon for groups to create havoc and problems.
Then again to die for that is simply awful, no matter what.
Still, with this incident the world seems to have exploded, to the extend that everyone right now seems to be dissatisfied with the situation we're in. All of them, for everything. There is a high level of aggressivness to the people right now, and this is how they react. Had things been better, the reaction would be totally different (at least I'd like to think so).
Dissatisfied with the situation? Can' t they wait till the next elections? Burning cars and making riots is not the way to show you dissaprove a situation, specially in a democratic country.
I mean... when were the last elections? If they were not that long, deal what "you" (Greece) voted.
If they were a long of time ago, the next elections can't be far. Wait, go, vote, and try to change the situation as civilized people do.
I wonder how media would see this if the situation was exactly the same but with extreme right doing the riots and not extreme left... "Heroes" would surelly turn into "vandals" soon. For me, both situations are vandalic.
I like to think that this kid would have known better on his own ... but it's always the case that individuals are smart, groups of people (mobs) are stupid. People find themselves caught up in the mob-mentality and doing things that, on their own, they'd never do.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I have been in a vehicle surrounded by "hostiles" before ... it's a totally helpless and scary situation. You can't get out of the car, but you feel like you can't stay in the car either. You never want for wings so badly!
Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 08/12/2008 15:32:34It is, however, rather truthful that in most parts of the world you don't expect to walk towards a car, with no weapon on you and get shot dead... :-\ It certainly was stupid but it does appear that they were 'taunting' the police, rather than anything else. They were a group of around 30 youths, having too much fun and being morons...
A civilian car sure, I would agree... but a
police car though, as part of a mob? It was just a stupid thing to do. I think a wild lion is cute but I'm not going to approach it and start petting it no matter how justified I might feel in doing so.
I wish they were releasing more information ...
I'd be curious to know if the officer that fired the stun weapon was in possession of the only "less than lethal" device in the car (night-sticks are useless in the confines of a vehicle and mace and/or pepper spray would (at those ranges) have had the same effect on the officers). I'd also like to know if the officer that killed the kid thought he
was firing "warning" shots. When there's a mob surrounding you it can be difficult to find open air to fire deterrent shots.
I'd also to be curious to know if all the mob participants were actually weaponless (bats, sticks, pipes, etc count as weapons) I find it unlikely that they were. I mean if they were willing to mob around a cop car I'm sure they were holding some kind of weapons, but that's just a hunch on my part.
Well, Darth... If a mob surrounds your car, you can call this guy:
(http://www4.cookman.edu/mmbpac/home.s2.gif)
And I partially dissagree with the "Mobs are stupid". Well... I agree that they are, but I' ve found myself in riots and I've left the place asap... I don' t really see it as an "excuse" (I know you are not telling it is an excuse...) but it is a point for my theory of "this never happens to "normal" people".
I say, ban the trigger-happy, aggressive, oppressive, sold, corrupted police and let the innocent civilians and political fighters do the patrols and deal with crime. Without guns. Or nightsticks. Or teargas.
Give me a break!
This was the golden opportunity for the media to avoid talking about certain events that have been quite uncomfortable for some powefrul greek people for quite some time now and concentrate on this mess until christmas shopping and national budget voting is over. Just my opinion.
The political party in power is irrelevant, thise things tend to happen and /or get the media attention when the media try to avoid awkward subjects.
The event itself will be clarified after some weeks, but what remains is the noise it makes at a certain period.
That said, of course I'd prefer an alive teenager and a policeman having just another of those days....
But somehow police always seems to be the aggressive part and 'civilians' are always unarmed, innocent and caught up in a riot by mistake. To me, this coincidence smells bad.
For me, the "coincidence" is that the "killed person" allways is, from a group of 30 or 40 rioters, "the innocent guy who was walking there, doing nothing..."
The corpse never does anything... Allways the others... allways caught there for being unlucky... :P
Well,it appears that well indeed ,as I'm posting this reporters still have breaking news, that some of our fellow greeks awaited for the chance to make some hell. And they got it, Sure some protested peacefully but we all know that peace doesn't sell..
Wow, this is going on and on. It reminds me of the banlieu-riots in Paris. It started with the death of two kids and suddenly the youth expressed their general frustration in aggression, mainly aiming at the police.
It's always the same, but it's hard to blame those who are throwing the stones. The problems have to be grabbed at their roots and that's mainly the task of the government, which is - in the case of greece, as far as I've heard - corrupt and inefficient.
Well, we'll see what this is leading to..
Quote from: matti on Wed 10/12/2008 19:50:27
It's always the same, but it's hard to blame those who are throwing the stones.
What???
Usually trouble is being caused by tens of youths (the 'anarchists'). This time the trouble is being caused by 1000s actually and it's all over Greece, it's not just Athens! The whole of Greece is being fed up with the situation and the awful conditions of life really. I would assume that I'm one of the lucky ones without too many problems, but there are many people who are struggling at 700 euros a month, for a family to live. And these are people with university degrees. :-\
On the other hand, civilians decided to rescue themselves and they have taken over parts of the city, the Patras University, last I heard, etc, and are defending their lives, their stores, their everything pretty much.
The goverment is full of shit, atm, and unable to do anything as it seems! Especially since the 1 directive that was given to the police was "BE VERY CAREFUL! DO NOT TOUCH, DO NOT HURT,..." Do not do your jobs properly as it seems! :(
And, yes, trouble is still going on.
Quote from: Nacho on Mon 08/12/2008 18:41:44
For me, the "coincidence" is that the "killed person" allways is, from a group of 30 or 40 rioters, "the innocent guy who was walking there, doing nothing..."
The corpse never does anything... Allways the others... allways caught there for being unlucky... :P
Except that now it's not about some 30 troublemakers and their idea of having fun, it's a widespread national reaction.
The killing was just a spark, it's pretty irrelevant who were right or wrong in that particular situation when the entire Greece is on fire.
Quote
I'm one of the lucky ones without too many problems, but there are many people who are struggling at 700 euros a month, for a family to live. And these are people with university degrees.
Makes one wonder what sort of university degrees they have? I once had a girlfriend who graduated with a BA degree in psychology and was astonished to find there wasn't any demand for such a degree. Duh! :=
Quote from: RickJ on Thu 11/12/2008 15:07:51
Makes one wonder what sort of university degrees they have?
All kinds of degrees, I assure you, from teaching, to entertaining, to fixing, to healing.
All those people have voted twice (2X) in the past 5 years.
Quote from: RickJ on Thu 11/12/2008 15:07:51
Quote
I'm one of the lucky ones without too many problems, but there are many people who are struggling at 700 euros a month, for a family to live. And these are people with university degrees.
Makes one wonder what sort of university degrees they have? I once had a girlfriend who graduated with a BA degree in psychology and was astonished to find there wasn't any demand for such a degree. Duh! :=
Actually maths, physics, computer science, etc... Everything to everything. When you have thousands of people entering a university, with some silly exams, worth it or not, it's not weird that these people end up without a job! Maybe this is why I decided to follow the music path. At least I'm doing what I love! I was in the physics department before quiting it for music! :-\
I do think that the same thing happens in the UK, where everyone ends up working in a bank or real estate, even if they have studied... biology for example. Then again the market is hugely bigger than that of Greece.
Petter:
A) How can you know it's a "National" reaction?
I don' t know how big Athens is. Let' s say it has a million people. 20,000 rioters would be a lot (I am sure there are much less). 1,000,000 between 20,000 makes that the ratio is 1 angry person per 50 non angry people. I think it' s not enough to think that the feeling is so "global" that the prime minister has to resign.
I think somebody should invent a way so people could chose its rulers. I don' t know... people could make a meeting, each certain time, let' s say, 4 years, and decide which of the different people who has applied to be elected is the best option.
Oh wait! They already invented that! It' s called "democracy". And democracy means that you must respect what people elected for 4 years. Apparently it' s something that anti-system groups can't understand.
Quote from: Nacho on Thu 11/12/2008 17:42:16
Petter:
A) How can you know it's a "National" reaction?
I don' t know how big Athens is. Let' s say it has a million people. 20,000 rioters would be a lot
About 5 million legal inhabitants. Rioters are less than 20.000, protestants are many more than that.
People might call it national because it has spread in the greek province and many cities are reported to be in turmoil.
The political party on power is irrelevant, things like that happen all the time. This time is slightly worse because of the number of cities that participate.
If the last years are an indication, this will only lead to bitterness and vendetta between certain political and professional groups, which will lead to more violence and reactions. Nothing more, nothing important. This is how all street fights end in Greece the last years.
*is afraid this is the case, once more*
About democracy: It is exactly about what people elected. When people realise they voted for Miss Greek Summer and ended up with some ugly old wench, then I guess they must do something about it, right?
Yes. Wait 4 years till the next elections. That is what civilized people use to do.
Ok, so it didn't work, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution
or a better example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
Two examples of the method of government simply being too unacceptable to the populous of the country to wait, the French were not very civilised in their methods, but I don't think calling the Spanish in the 30s non-civilised would be accurate? The people felt that they needed a change. So they tried to force one.
Both examples are cases of ununcivilised acts, yes.
I am quite sure that half page in wiki is not enough to understand how uncivilised the Spanish Revolution was... I don't think taking priests and nuns to the town square and cut their throats is civilised. I don' t think that rioting the properties of the "rich people" (after slaughtering them) is civilised. Search a bit more, and then come back to the thread.
As for the French Revolution... Are you really being serious about how "civilised" it was?
Anyway, I don' t think that a revolt to finish with monarchy 200 years ago works fine as an example of what is happening today in a XXIst century democratic country as Greece... but if you think that if anytime people is not happy with the government should do what the antisystem groups are doing in Greece, then... well... You are wrong.
I think I wrote the the French weren't civilised, in fact, i'm certain ;)
I'm not saying the actual revolutions were civilised, nor what is going on in greece, but I was trying to show what civilised people can be driven to. Sometimes it's not good enough to wait for 4 years.
Although it is never good enough to hurt innocent people in the name of a "cause".
Quote from: passer-by on Thu 11/12/2008 18:13:18
The political party on power is irrelevant, things like that happen all the time. This time is slightly worse because of the number of cities that participate.
Fair enough. Just keep in mind that since... June or something (this is when I got back to Greece), there's been nothing but trouble, with tons of strikes, announcements from the government about drop of tax free in freelancers, etc... Remember those? When the government decided to say (they had to), that they owed much much more money than anticipated and in order to counter that they would just raise taxes in the lower classes? Remember the plan to join all different insurance "clans" into one (IKA)?
I would seriously believe that all the above have been gathering into the minds of everyone. Unhappy people are much easier to spring to rioting. And right now I don't think there's anyone happy.
Regardless of Pasok and ND actually, cause I hardly think Papandreou will do a better job, or even worst any of the left parties (brrr...). This is non party-related, but it is situation-related.
Quote from: Zooty on Thu 11/12/2008 19:57:41
Sometimes it's not good enough to wait for 4 years.
Why?
There are "acts" that are accepted in the democratic game. One of them is voting each 4 years. There are some other things to do between those periods; Make proseletism of the option you defend, assist to debates, even arrange a general strike or making pacific manifestations.
Going any further is uncivilised. If you can't understand, you' ll probably do in a future.
Zooty: If you are interested in how "civilized" the Spanish revolution was, you should read a bit of "PÃo Mora", although I am not sure if there is something in English by him. And Ah! I don' t think he is suspecious of being "conservative raised" or something... He was a member of anti-fascist terrorist group GRAPO (before maturing, of course...).
A group of those which, like you, think that "waiting 4 years somethimes is not good enough" (they continued their activity after Franquism, they are active now, actually...)
Quote from: Nacho on Thu 11/12/2008 20:10:24
Quote from: Zooty on Thu 11/12/2008 19:57:41
Sometimes it's not good enough to wait for 4 years.
Why?
There are "acts" that are accepted in the democratic game. One of them is voting each 4 years. There are some other things to do between those periods; Make proseletism of the option you defend, assist to debates, even arrange a general strike or making pacific manifestations.
Tell you what. Date a new girl. If you do decide you don't like her for some reason, wait for 4 years for the next girl to come, in order to quit the relationship!
Farl, keep in mind that this is the middle of the 4 years, not the beginning.
What if the president of spain suddenly cut the minimum wage, killing people for being too tall and put himself in direct charge of the military?
No, no, let's wait four years, see what happens, he might be going somewhere with this.
Quote from: Zooty on Thu 11/12/2008 20:27:02
What if the president of spain suddenly cut the minimum wage, killing people for being too tall and put himself in direct charge of the military?
No, no, let's wait four years, see what happens, he might be going somewhere with this.
I think you're misunderstanding Nacho's point!
I see (and, for the most part, agree with both sides).
If you voted "yes" to cut minimum wage, kill tall people, and put the president in charge of the military then yes, you should deal/live with it for four years (or until the next election).
However; If you voted for tax cuts, more jobs, and an increase in the minimum wage and then the president puts himself in charge of the military, cuts minimum wage, and then starts killing us tall folk then yes, of course, you should do something about it.
Quote from: Nacho on Thu 11/12/2008 20:10:24
Why?
Because in four years, you can change the prospects for four generations of school students, by changing the exam system from class to class and/or to University every year.
Because you can bury families in debt with your monetary/tax/salary/basic goods' prices policy.
Because you might have brought a really 'ugly' law that puts weak groups, like handicaped people or minorities, in danger.
Because you may be not good enough to protect your people in international crisis or help them when disasters occur.
And so many more examples. If we only have this one lifetime, four years is a very long time to waste.
Again, I'm not taking the part of any political party in here. Plus, this kind of 'revolution' is not my style. I believe in education and elections, really. I also believe that violence brings vendetta. I don't like vendettas.
I was waiting for this to happen starting off of some police stupid reaction ever since every police action went under the microscope some months ago, trying to make heroes out of some rioters. Each and every time the media focussed on that. This time, with the help of some badly trained and probably hot-headed person, it worked.
It is scary to think what will happen next.
Ok... Apparently some people here think that if you don' t like your president you are allowed to this:
(http://estaticos03.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/12/10/disturbios_huelga_grecia/1228912097_extras_albumes_0.gif)
And this:
(http://estaticos03.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/12/10/disturbios_huelga_grecia/1228912334_extras_albumes_0.gif)
And this...
(http://estaticos03.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/12/09/nuevos_incidentes_grecia/69c8b4f94467030d0a4382edee64ea0a_extras_albumes_0.jpg)
and...
(http://estaticos03.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/12/09/nuevos_incidentes_grecia/b8314a4a0a3197faf585db6568a7fa5c_extras_albumes_0.jpg)
Honestly... I thought you were more democratic, but no. If you can think of 4 "becauses" of why you don' t like your president it' s enough, you can start a revolt...
(Must I assume that the rest of the 200 countries of the world without riots have a list with, as maximum, 3 "buts" in the management of their respective presidents?)
Exactly what Pinochet did, no? Pinochet had an inmense list of things he didn' t liked of Allende. He discussed it with their buddies in the army and they agreed that the President was doing bad enough that they had to do something "more" than voting. Of course, that example doesn't count...
When Che did it, it was ok. When the riots started against Sarkozy it was ok... Now it' s okay. With Pinochet no. When the next fascist forces start a revolt against an elected democratic socialdemocrat I will cut and paste this posts, to see what you say in that situation.
To clarify: I didn' t supported Pinochet. But I don' t support anti-system riots, either.
I thought autolabelled "pacifists" and "progresist" people would agree with me, but apparently they find "buts" when the people who starts their revolts has ideas they sympathy with... It' s funny. Patethically funny, but funny.
And Nik: If you are in the middle of the 4 years, the better. Only two for changing the situation, no? Well... The problem is that then the president might repeat, and no! That, no! :P
Passer-by, I simply don' t understand your point.
I asked "why".
My "Why" was not questioning if the president was doing "good", "bad" or "average". I think I never wrote a single word in this thread (Or anywhere, to be honest) about what I think about Costas' government.
I asked "Why" questioning if "The president has done bad enough to receive "that". (And by "that" you have some pics in the previous posts as an example).
Has Costas done bad enough for 400 families in Athens to lose their business places? Has Costas done bad enough for thousands of people seeing how their car burn? Has Costas done bad enough that the only possible sollution was to start a revolt where the main victim is the "average" person? I think not. I don't life in Greece, but what arrives to me is that what is happening now is, IMHO, only deserved in an attempt to preserve democracy. Costas might be an ass, but he is not putting democracy in Danger, I think. At least not much as dozens of world leaders who did not had to face a revolt.
Like what happened in Paris. "Two guys came and fired my car on, shouting: "Fuck Sarkozy!". But that was not Sarkozy's car! That was MY CAR!"
Imagine an example. Someone kills Bush because he thinks he has managed the country very unpropperly for eight years. I ask "Did he deserve to die?" And you reply to me "His decissions were bad". NO. I am not asking if his decissions are good or bad. I might probably agree that his decission were bad. I am asking "Did he deserve to die?".
Same here. I ask about the riots and you reply me about Costas' decissions. I don' t give a damn about Costas decissions.
I ask "apples", you reply "pears".
And at the end, you say: "Again, I'm not taking the part of any political party in here. Plus, this kind of 'revolution' is not my style. I believe in education and elections, really. I also believe that violence brings vendetta. I don't like vendettas."
Which is basically my point. I think you tried to counter argument me, but I don' t see how... Please, if I am wrong and you were not trying to argue with me make me clear.
"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories." - Thomas Jefferson
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
It seems that oppressive governments refuse to acknowledge the wisdom offered them by their forbears, instead continuing down dark roads of corruption only to be surprised when people shout 'enough!' and openly air their grievances. I'm sure Greece is another case of a boiling kettle that finally had the top taken off, and all the attempts at peaceful reform that fell on deaf ears have now turned to open revolt. It's sad in our supposedly enlightened times that we have corrupt and inefficient governments just about everywhere in the world, governments out for themselves and not for the people. Maybe Jefferson was right; maybe every generation does need a revolution.
I would agree with ProgZmax if the protesters were from a cross section of the population. However, it seems that they are all from a small but vocal fringe political faction. I think some people are missing Nacho's point that in a functioning democracy there are non-violent methods of effecting change. In the examples passer-by gives both governments were dictatorships where the people had no means, other than rebellion, to effect change.
I also have not heard specifically what the protesters want changed; I'd bet they don't know either. It doesn't take any mental effort at all to complain about the way things are but it's a lot of work to actually think about what it would take to make things better.
I am of the opinion that the recent events in Greece are the work of immature underachievers rather than the sober citizenry. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out that the instigators of these events were being influenced and financed by foreign entities.
You could be right, of course, but don't forget that England viewed America as very much a fringe group of reactionaries that needed to be put in their place...and then we had the Revolutionary War :). I'm not saying that the methods used are right, but perhaps peaceful avenues were explored and denied to some of these people and they've gone beyond the point of reason, which is where revolution finds the seeds to grow. All sorts of bad things happen during riots and revolutions (look at all the public executions during the French Revolution, some of the people executed were just patsies, or all the pointless looting during the LA Riots) but these events are almost always a symptom of a greater sickness in the country, and in the government in particular.
Quote from: Nacho on Thu 11/12/2008 21:47:14
I thought autolabelled "pacifists" and "progresist" people would agree with me, but apparently they find "buts" when the people who starts their revolts has ideas they sympathy with... It' s funny. Patethically funny, but funny.
I don't recall saying I approve riots. I only said that sometimes waiting for the elections can be disastrous. I also think I said that violence brings bitterness and vendeta and that I don't like it.
I fail to see where I said I approve riots, really.
@Rick
what two governements? I didn't mention governments.
Quote
what two governments? I didn't mention governments.
Passer-by, please accept my apology. I mistakenly attributed to you, the examples cited by Zooty (i.e. The Spanish and French revolutions). :-[
Quote
I'm not saying that the methods used are right, but perhaps peaceful avenues were explored and denied to some of these people ...
When you say "denied" do you mean they failed to persuade a majority of elected representatives and/or the population to their point of view? If so then this is not a reason for violence, which I believe is Nacho's point. This is how small children, who have not yet mastered their emotional impulses nor learned self control, behave when they don't get their way.
I know very little, if anything at all, about Greek politics and I think this is true for most of us giving opinions here. I hope our friends from Greece are not offended or annoyed at our ignorance. := Perhaps someone knowledgeable, such as Nikolas, could give us a brief overview.
Actually passer-by and Dualnames (and me) are all Greek! ;)
Greeks (and I hope passer-by will agree with me) are rather quick to act (most usually to a strike). As I said earlier, to a reply towards passer-by, there's been strikes for a long time now, for various reasons, including the whole underground system, for days and days, TV, etc. Do keep in mind that, regardless of the death of the 15 year old, there was, yet another, strike, from EVERYONE (stores, the underground, tv stations, etc), a couple of days ago.
It's not exactly that the current government did something bad and everyone revolted. I do think that it's the universal economic situation that also had a hand into this! Things were quite bad, went even further wrong, and you also have a universal crisis to deal with. Quite easy to get frustrated and kick all around you. It's not a single problem gathering, it's myriads of little problems growing and seeing no solution after 5-6 years of the same government.
Nacho, the idea, in general, is that at some point you get fed up and try different things. This can happen when the usual methods do not work! The luxury of waiting for 4 years cannot be present the whole time.
Just for the shake of being clear: I do not approve of violence, nor I wore a helmet to be at the centre of Athens. My nose is too big to wear a helmet to begin with! ;D I find that random acts of violence do not gain anything, apart from showing the desperation and frustration of people. (And I do understand the whys, or at least I'm trying to, which should be the primary job of the government actually).
Again, I don' t understand "you", and by "you" I mean the people who say "No to riots, no to violence, "but".
There are no buts. Only 2 years for the next votings. Go to the people who has lost their business, jobs, houses, cars, and tell them so.
Again, there is this "hyperlegitimacy of the left" thing. If this very thing was happening with extreme right rioters in spite of extreme left, everybody would complain. Me included.
I can stop, and think: "Mmy political choices do not interfere to say that something is wrong when something is wrong".
Now examine yourself and try to answer the same question.
Quote from: Nacho on Fri 12/12/2008 02:47:19
There are no buts.
This is a major point. You admit youself that you do NOT wish to even try to understand: "There are no buts".
I'm saying (and passer-by, if I understand correctly) that we do not agree, but we do see the reasoning behind the actions.
In law, reasoning exists, so do different circumstances, as well as different sentences for the same crime, for different people. You dissagree with all these, right?
I would, probably, complain much louder, had my house/store/car burned down by the 'anarchists', but you do see me complaining, don't you? I did start the thread didn't I? I didn't applaud the 'anarchists', but made a more social conversation, which I would imagine has to do with the universal economical situation far more than just an incident in Greece, etc...
But I never argued about the reasonings. I allways argued about the actions.
And no... There are no "buts" for that actions. Do you agree with me that there are no "buts" for that actions?
You are standing too much into sematics. A person saying "I don't agree, but I do realise there could be a reason behind it", (to which I still might not agree) does not indicate a "but", as you seem to imply it. It means that actions are lead by reasoning and problems unsolved, no?
I'm a fan of actually trying to find what's wrong and fixing it rather than dealing with the actions (which of course shuold be the first course of action in this case, as it IS unacceptable for all the stores,hotels,banks,cars to be burned down, no matter what!)
NO MATTER WHAT!
I still will be looking to reason into why this is happening and thus find a way to correct the problem, as I think it should be happening with such issues on the background (cause as I said the security of the people does come first).
If this succeds in any degree (Anticipating the elections, dimissions, etc...) it will be a sad day. It will mean that "burn 1000 cars" and people will listen to you.
Your "attempt to find what's wrong and fixing it rather than dealing with the actions" is a step in that direction.
Sad.
I basically refuse to listen, yes. It' s something I allways did when someone uses violence to make its message more audible.
You don' t realise, but you are "putting lines". I don' t.
ME: "Violence? Sorry, I don' t want to listen to your reasons, SHUT UP, MAAahaaannahahahhhhahaaaaaaaAAAaAaa!!! I Am not listening to you!!!"
YOU: "Violence? Oh I dissaprove it! Now, let' s see what the violents mean..."
So I'm confused...
The government has all the right to act uncivilized, as it obviously has so far, but the people have no right to act uncivilized? I thought the government was supposed to represent the public. The whole nation, not to divide it in two, that's more or less provoking classism, and certainly not good for democracy.
What if the government decided to swap to totalitarism. Change the constitution so, that they would never have to stand down? They'd still be justified because they were chosen by the people?
Is the government doing that?
Yes or No, please.
On the other hand, your "Government can act uncivilised, so, the people can as well" is funny.... Funny because when the opposite happens (Example:"People can kill people. I think the government should have the power to kill the killers") you start to shout, complain, and argue that government has to behave differently. If course you tell that if we are discussing about death penalty in Texas... Of course if we change "Texas" by "Cuba" and a "guy who slaughtered a family" for "A capitalist that was against revolution", then it' s ok. You can even buy a shirt of Alberto Korda' s pic of guy who ordered that. How nice...
How inmature. how incongruent and how sad.
(*) (I am not for penalthy death, just stating how easilly you can contradict yourself deppending if you agree what which is happening or not.)
So, Toumas... Do you think that riots, burning enterprises, burn cars is ok? Cool. I don' t.
@Nacho for specific questions and @all for generic topic
I am not leftist. Or anarchist. Or "antisystem". I didn't go to the streets. Not even as a student. On the opposite, I did the cowardly thing: I fled the country when I realised we'd have the same type of government for another four years. Not much of a rioter, am I? I don't think violence is the solution. I believe rioters will only cause more violence. I also believe that police violence was the excuse, not the cause of the riots. The cause is in everyday struggling to make the ends meet. Or even some laws that people think hurt their dignity.
I think I have stated the above multiple times in this thread. It pains me to see my country like this and to watch and hear and read all the biased BS of several foreign news agencies of several countries because of that. But we, at least, solve our problems within our own country. Well, most of the time :P
Now, apart from justification or not of the riots, there is the very big and important aspect of this issue: current local politics. You feel for the people who saw their property stolen, smashed and burnt, but you maybe don't know that people's property and businesses, health system, education and so on were already on the verge of chaos anyway.
Again, this is a continuous situation than in my opinion, only education and a change of mentality can solve. When the greeks will realise that selling your vote for a job in the public sector or for *disappearance* of your illegal parking ticket is not an honourable thing to do, then maybe the situation will get better.
I am waiting for this crisis to end with no further damage. I am hoping people will find a less loud and more efficient way to protest. A civilised' way, if you like. But, although I find premature elections always damage the economy and the flow of things like health and education, I wouldn't mind having some politicians think twice before submitting laws for personal profit.
Quote from: Nacho on Fri 12/12/2008 05:28:30
Is the government doing that?
Yes or No, please.
Yes, obviously, ask anyone, or study the posts above.
Quote
So, Toumas... Do you think that riots, burning enterprises, burn cars is ok? Cool. I don' t.
Me neither.
Ok... apparently now nobody agrees with the riots.
Hurraaaaaaay! :D
Then... why are you arguing with me since I' ve never said anything about Costas' decissions but about the riots?
I honestly think that some people here like to argue. :) I do, sometimes, but not now, and to prove that I won't post anything else here till the 22nd. ;D
Oh, Passer-by! I consider far way more brave to leave the country than cover your face and get out to the street and throw a molotov, so, don't worry...
Quote from: Nacho on Fri 12/12/2008 13:10:54
Ok... apparently now nobody agrees with the riots.
I didn't post this (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=36272.msg475940#msg475940) ''now'', as you seem to imply, but way earlier. I reread it and find nothing that suggests I like this mess.
@all
I'd better post less in this thread as this issue is quite close to my heart and I feel I can't be polite enough to continue. My inbox is always available though and I'll answer direct questions in this thread when I see them.
Quote from: Nacho on Fri 12/12/2008 13:10:54
I honestly think that some people here like to argue. :) I do, sometimes, but not now, and to prove that I won't post anything else here till the 22nd. ;D
I'm sorry, but you're the one starting all the arguments here. :P You have 3 threads to prove that, everyone against you. I have no need to fight, so don't take this that way. Also, in my first sentence I just tried to point out I was confused, not to start an argument. That's why I replied to the questions as I felt right.
Well, when some violents acts start and someone say/thinks/ "Oh... I hate violence, but something good could get out from this" I tend to see him/her as suspicious. I do this for two reasons:
a) If this happens in my country and extreme-right groups start a revolt to take the asshole we have as a president out I wouldn't think "Oh... I hate violence, but something good could get out of this". I would think "Oh... I hate violence, nothing good can get out if this morons are finally heard..."
And
b) I' ve seen during my life a plenty of hypocrital attitudes towards violence, with institutions loudly saying "Violence is bad" but secretelly thinking "Wow! This is helping my crusade a lot!" (Nationalist parties).
I am not saying that you are in "B"... But explaining why of my suspects. If you are not in "b", I hope you' ll be able to accept the apologies about my assumptions.
Edit: Yes, Tuomas, 3 discussions in a row. In one, people tried to convince me that socialism is more effective than free market. In the other people tried to prove me that God existed. And in the third people was putting "buts" to violence.
When it comes to discussions I don't "count" how many people is for one argument and how many people is for the another.
I simply messure the weight of the arguments.
The situation sucks..all of it.
First anarchists:
Why?
Because the burned down all the buildings,but didn't burn Hondos Center, Notos Galleries, Attika(all those are huge mall stores,sort of)
Secondly those who just went to take stuff.
They just suck for every possible reason
Thirdly the cops:
because today a 15year old girl was treated like a criminal arrested by 5! cops.. at least she survived
Fourth the woman(yes the one she shot the kid, I'm using she because being a man is more than appearing as so):
Because instead of saying the truth he used inexplicable lies, trying to prove the kid is a criminal...if that is so.. then we're now safe..I'm speechless of what I've read and it's surprising how words can't always depict feelings.
How are thing going in Greece now? I hope the worst is over and that things improve for everyone.
Well, things are going better. Less and less episodes every day. At least the media seem to show less and less. Some good peaceful riots are going on this week, and glad to announce my university will not need me to attend so 2 weeks of vacations added. Yay. ;D