GTA: San Andreas under scrutiny

[That Guy]

Your argument about the ESRB relies on a normative premise. You say that all content *must* be evaluated. I say they *can't* rate what they can't play (or know about). This is the reason the ESRB missed the "adult scenes" in the first place, no matter how much they may have intended to rate all of the content. Perhaps we should blame the ESRB for misleading all those innocent 17 year olds who believed the rating when they bought the game. Those poor bastards didn't even see it coming.

Actually, the ESRB has specific regulations in place precisely to keep stuff like this from happening.Ã,  That's why Rockstar is being fined (I believe) and having the rating on the game changed.

You're absolutely right that the ESRB cannot rate what they cannot see.Ã,  They are quite aware of this, and that is why one of their regulations is that you cannot "hide" material in your game that would alter its rating.Ã,  If they find out that you did, then your game gets re-rated and you get a big stink raised, much like Rockstar is getting now.

The bottom line is, the addition of explicit sexual content in a software title mandates an Adults-Only rating.Ã,  Like it or not, them's the rules.Ã,  Rockstar put (excuse me... "accidentally left") content in their game that mandated that rating.Ã,  When it was discovered, the rating was changed.

's all there is to it.Ã,  The rating now reflects the content, which is the way it should have been in the first place.

Personally, my big problem with this whole thing is that when confronted with the problem, Rockstar attempted to lie about it and blame the whole thing on "teh haxors" rather than own up to it.Ã,  If something like this had happened at any of the places I'd worked there'd be a few firings goin' on.

Although, given the way communication works, it's quite feasible that the PR folks for Rockstar misunderstood the question, since technically the released version doesn't contain a sex scene.Ã,  They probably jumped the gun.

media: "Hey Rockstar, someone hacked your game and now there's sex in it."

Rockstar PR: "GTA doesn't include any sex.Ã,  We can't control alterations done to our software by a third party."

Rockstar programmers: "Uh oh.Ã,  Everybody hide!"

and no, I don't wear a tie.Ã,  But you keep right on imagining me masturbating if that's what gets ya.Ã, 

[Ishmael]

I just don't get it... You can shoot an innocent guy right between the eyes with a 12 gauge, but you can't see two pixely naked people doing it, untill you're eighteen... America is weird.

[Becky]

I just don't get it... You can shoot an innocent guy right between the eyes with a 12 gauge, but you can't see two pixely naked people doing it, untill you're eighteen... America is weird.

I think it's more the rating system that's weird.  Here in the UK games are rated on a Europe-wide rating system (PEGI), with 3+, 7+, 12+, 16+ and 18+.  The amount of pure violence in GTA:SA means that it's already 18+ in most of Europe, and the discovery of this "hot coffee" mod makes no difference to it's rating.

[Ishmael]

That reminded me of when I bought Halo... it had 15+ on the cover, or well, actually not. I didn't examine it too well before opening the plastic wrapper, but when I did, it turned out that there was 16+ on the case, but a sticker with 15+ on it on the plastic. Completely irrelevant, buut....

Yeah, well, it's the rating system that's weird. But the logic that sex is nono for underaged people, but killing others isn't, is what I was after...

EDIT: what am I typing? :

[Scummbuddy]

Everytime a Halo game is loading up on xbox live and all I hear is some whiny voice yelling something immature, all I say is "Halo 2: Rated M for Mature

it gets a good laugh from the older players, and a nice pre-pubescent "Shut up" from Whiny McWahwah.

It is rediculous that we have a 17+ age group and an 18+ age group. We should just merge the 17 one up a year and be done with it. Too bad it may have a serious effect on sales as does an R rating for a movie.

[Blackthorne]

It still blows my goddamn mind that video games have ratings.

I still remember Pac Man being in the arcades!


Bt

[Andail]

Again, in order not to sound puritan, I can gladly admit that both violence and sex intrigues me highly.

But let's face it; if there had never been movies or games with excessive violence, or prostitution/rape/abuse etc, we wouldn't see a fraction of all the shit we see in our society today.

Should we forbid it? I never said so, nor do I say it now. But we need to work out a pretty darn smart plan when it comes to how to present it to our kids.

[TerranRich]

Andail, I've always been of the belief that movies and video games mirror society, not cause it. But that's just me. I don't have anything to back up my argument, it's just an opinion.

Also, can somebody clarify what the deal is with that "hidden" content in GTA:SA? I mean, if somebody ALTERED the game...ALTERED it, then it doesn't count as hidden content. Just like the nude patch for the original Tomb Raider. Nobody looked at that and went, "Well, gee, we should give Tomb Raider an adult rating!"

[Tiki]

Well, that's because the actual nude Laura skin wasn't made by the company, nor released in every copy of the game.

In Hot Coffee's case, the material was already there, it was just a matter of getting it playable.

[MrColossal]

andail: blah blah horrible violence and atrocities before playstation and tv and the radio, but you know that already

[TerranRich]

Also, I really doubt video games and movies are the source of inspiration for men who abuse their wives/girlfriends, serial rapists, serial killers, and prostitutes.

"Gee, I just played Grand Theft Auto and I really want to be a hooker. See you guys later!"

[TheYak]

Or Jack Thompson's wonderful arguments that the US military uses games like Delta Force and other "Combat simulators" to break down troops' resistance to killing.  Additionally, GTA3 was -apparently- used extensively by gangs to teach new members "how to hijack a car."  GTA is like the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[Nacho]

I haven't bought GTA, but I am seriosly thinking on it... Being totally naughty in a videogame appeals me a lot, and it looks like a lovely escape-valve. Don't know about other people, but playing that game would (IMO) make me be less violent (Because after kicking butts virtually I wouldn't do it in real life)

But I can understand that some guys (I call them "teh wankers") would like to experience in real life something they've seen in their consoles . But IMO, people like that has the evil (or moronity) seed inside, no matter if what makes the seed is a videogame or a fil, or a poster... When Charles Manson acted there were no viedeogames .

[Helm]

I like how That Guy is all 'rockstart put omg excuse me left that content in there lol' where this seemingly trivialized aspect of this case is the most important. That Guy, you've said nothing that explains how the blame is shifted from the person that HACKS A PROGRAM to the company that made the content. Is hacking the program - no matter how easy the hack -  to get stuff out of it included in the Terms Of Use of the software? Isn't that what your silly rating organization governs? The content seen in a normal playing of a game?

No amount of lol and italics changes that. The people who downloaded third party software to see pixelly sex did it on their own volition, and nobody in the world should get the blame for stuff THEY DID. If 'The Fly' is on tonight after midnight, and my son wants to see it and I tell him no, but then he goes up to his room and hacks the cable line and sees it in his psp or something... I'll ground him, not sue Sony.

Would it be okay for a company to release "Happy Fuzzy Bunny Quest", rated E, and more or less have a GTA clone in it (that SHOULD be rated Mature) that was easily accessible, JUST so they could get their game on to Wal-mart shelves? THEN the ESRB would be entirely pointless, since young kids that are somewhat tech-savvy could learn how to do the hack and got to WalMart and buy a game that REALLY should be rater higher.

the tech-savvy kids would be to blame, then. Not the said company. They can go right ahead and stick added as expansive added content in places where under Terms Of Use you can't reach it for all I care. I can't see why this isn't clear to everybody. When you do something with full intent, prepare to face the music. You bought Happy Fuzzy Bunny Quest, yet what you want to see is blood and guts in game. Tell me what you see wrong in that picture. The americans are just diverting attention from the real problems

[TheYak]

The americans are just diverting attention from the real problems

Look over there! A three-headed monkey!

Actually, I was thinking somewhat inline with That Guy's statement.  Rockstar did make the content and it is included with the game.  The fact that a hack allows access to an area that exceeds the rating doesn't change that fact.  However, your point is a good one - somebody needs to alter the game in order to access this area.  Granted, the user didn't put the pixeled-lucious-naughty-bits in there, or the gameplay for it, but they've still altered the game from the boxed product.  Maybe Rockstar's disclaimer should've been more thorough: "Any alterations or 'hacks' of the game not specifically sanctioned by Rockstar may results in gameplay experiences beyond the scope of the ESRB rating." 

It's still astounding that the huge controvery is only because it's 1) Sexual in nature and 2) An already controversial and popular game.

Jedi Knight Academy got a Teen rating for violence but certainly would've scored higher if evaluated with a widespread patch in place.  There were blood-patches (about which I've no idea if they opened original game code or replaced some) and severing/decapitation patches (which made the game run according to some in-house code and allowed more variety of saber-slicing).

[Ishmael]

severing/decapitation patches (which made the game run according to some in-house code and allowed more variety of saber-slicing).

That is actually already in the game, AFAIK. You'll just need to change a few variables in the game console, and pelvis' start to split when you hit the head and arms fall off when you hit a leg

[TheYak]

Ah.. maybe the "patch" only updates an .ini or somesuch.  Either way, the game was much more interesting with it.

[Ishmael]

Well, I've played it with a mod that added blood too. It was fun. Not only because of the blood, but because of the other stuff in that mod, too. Hmmm... now this is beginning to not make sense anymore... and a bit offtopic ¬¬