HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!

[rharpe]

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

Not just to those that live in the US, but everyone throughout the world. You may not celebrate this day, but I'm sure this day is a good reminder to be thankful to God for the loved ones you have and the blessings God has bestowed upon you. (Talents, job, brains, family, friends, religion, money, fame, etc., etc., life...) 

What I'm thankful for:
1. being a Traditional Catholic...
2. my beautiful wife...
3. my beautiful daughter...
4. raised in a great Catholic family: Dad, Mom, 3 sisters, and 4 brothers...
5. given many graces to stay Catholic...
6. Computer, artistic, photographic, talents...
7. my stubborn make-up of: French-Canadian, German, Irish, American Indian mix...
8. my grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins...
9. my friends that I've known all my life... and those of you here online that share my game-design dreams...
10. and anything else I can't think of at the moment.

[Nikolas]

First of all thank you!

I also know that I'm gratefull for all those things that are happening to my life (even the bad ones).

One questio though: I'm not American, and up until last year, I lived in the remotest corner of Europe, Greece. So what's the story with thanksgiving. Apart from the obvious meaning of the word. What's the story with turqeys, indians, etc...?

I know that I could google it, but on the other hand, someone I know from in here, might give me a better explanation, maybe...

[rharpe]

What's the story with turqeys, indians, etc...?

I know that I could google it, but on the other hand, someone I know from in here, might give me a better explanation, maybe...

It all started back when the pilgrams from England left on the "Mayflower" for the "New World" (Aka: America.) The whole reason they left was because of the religious freedom they did not have the and the political corruption. (Much like our world today... not much has changed in this respect.) The pilgrams felt that the only way they could live was to flee Europe. A better life was waiting for them... but not easier by no means. They knew they had to start all over.

Once they arrived, I'm sure there were many obstacles to overcome: native Indian tribes, (some friendly, and some savages,) diseases, food shortage, harsh winters, wild animals, etc. They didn't really get settled until a tribe of "friendly" Indians taught them: how to grow certain crops, build their homes, and hunt for clothing and meat. Both, the Indians and the Pilgrams, celebrated together the very first Thanksgiving around this time because this was the harvest time before winter. And from then on, it has always been celebrated.

It's a great example of how man helps one another regardless of race, religion, way of life, etc. And a great reminder for everyone to thank God for giving us this privilege, (not right,) to life.

As for the turkey goes, this bird runs wild throughout the Central & Eastern parts of the United States. To the Indians, the eagle and hawks were a symbol of strength, which is why they hunted the turkey instead. (Chickens, horses, cows and pigs were brought over from Europe later when more Pilgrams from Europe arrived.)     

[Tiki]

I ate too much.

UGH.

[Nikolas]

Thanks rharpe!

I too ate too much, tiki, but went for a pizza! hehe!

[Domino]

I had no place to go to today. Well, i could have gone to my aunts house, but i cancelled.

So i enjoyed my patented frozen chicken in the microwave meal.  I take 2 frozen chicken breasts and add onion powder, then i cook them for about 10 minutes, then i add shredded taco cheese and ranch dressing.  You can also add salsa, but i was out.  This meal is great, and the chicken is nice and tender even from the microwave.

I'm also thankful to be inside tonight, because it is snowing and the temps are in the teens, which is below normal for this time of year. It is damn cold out tonight.

I was freezing just brushing off my car earlier today.

edit: thankful for Dragon Quest VIII, which i have been playing for awhile, and will keep me entertained for a long time.

[TheYak]

It's a bit of a romanticized version of it.  Its origins were pagan (surprise), and involved revelry, celebration and feasting.  However, the celebratory feast with the natives did occur, for basically the reasons mentioned.  The banquet varied from the "traditional" dinner that many Americans have.  The holiday was not celebrated annually as the next year's hardships (poor harvest, etc.) didn't allow for anything resembling feasting or celebration. 

It was next celebrated after the Revolutionary War, in 1777, but wasn't officially a holiday until the latter half of the 1800's.  As far as being during the currently scheduled time, that wasn't in place until 1939. 

It's a nice sentiment regardless of historical nit-pickings, and the holiday pays quite well when you have to work it.

[esper]

It's origins were pagan??? Seriously? I thought Thanksgiving was the only REAL Christian holiday in existence. For those of you further uninclined to the study of history, religion, or holidays, Christmas is Yule, Halloween is Samhain, Easter is Easter (no joke: even the Bible "conveniently" refers to a Pagan holiday called Easter, or Eostre, which is the feast of Ishtar), and every Saint holiday (Valentine's, Patricks, etc.) draw comparisons to feasts of ancient gods. Even the archetypes have not changed (ie the Christmas tree, the Yule log, the jack-o'-lanterns, the bunny and eggs (the rabbit being a symbol of fertility, as was Ishtar), etc.)... And the dates... Does no one find it a bit odd that our "Christian" holidays fall on equinoxes and solstices, and that the supposed date of the resurrection of Christ is not an actual date, but based on astrology? (seriously, Jesus' resurrection would have been three days after Passover, folks... it isn't that hard to figure out) I thought Thanksgiving was the only "sincere" holiday of the bunch. Oh well, the turkey doesn't taste any different because of it.

[TheYak]

To be fair, I think celebrations concerning having food / excess right before a season infamous for the lack thereof isn't really specific to any particular religion.   I can't say that I've ever thought of Thanksgiving as a religious holiday, despite services based around that theme.  It's more of a time to appreciate what you've got and be thankful to the deity / intelligence / mother earth / life itself that allows the opportunity. 

[esper]

The problem is that, despite Biblical warnings to not be a friggin' stealer of other people's things (I believe the Bible clearly states not to covet your neighbor's ass) religious groups tend to heavily enjoy the stealination of things. What we today consider "Christianity" is just stealination of stuff. This is my historical timeline of the stealing of things up until the stealing of Thanksgiving.

1) Fourth-century Roman emporer Constantine (not John Constantine, although I know you were thinking it) decides Christianity is becoming a powerful and influential force. He therefore attempts to appease the Christians by making Christianity the state religion. In doing so, all the pagans forced to convert bring with them their gods, godesses, and holidays. The official First Stealination takes place.

2) "Christian" art begins mimicking pagan art. Ever notice that pictures of Saints always show them holding up two fingers, in the same way that earlier paintings and statues of Roman gods are done? The pope even carries a bowed cross-staff, like Hermes, and has the fish-crown of Dagon on his head.

3) "Christian" music begins to steal from the music around them. For some reason, although they've been stealing right along, most churches don't like this particular one, and of all the other things for them not to like, tell people to stop stealing music from the world.

4) As stated above, Samhain, Beltane, Walpurgishnacht, Lughnassadh, Yule, and the Feast of Ishtar become Christian holidays and Saint feasts. As close as they can bloody well get it, births of Sun deities become the Birth of the Son, the day of the resurrection of certain gods picturing the coming of Spring become the day of the resurrection of the Son of God, even though, as stated, this obviously took place three days after passover and is not based on astrology...

5) Symbols from said holidays are stealinated as well. The rabbit that pictures fertility (for obvious reasons) becomes the Easter Bunny, the Jack o' Lantern that once was placed in a home from which a virgin was taken to be sacrificed stays a friggin' jack o' lantern with little to no change, the pagan Holly King become Santa Claus, only in America he's dressed in the colors of Coca Cola...

6) Christians decide to screw the Jews and steal Aryanism itself... Jesus, in every movie he's portrayed in, is a fair skinned blonde, blue-eyed, handsome guy with a british accent.

7) Finally, in the most random act of stealination ever perpetrated since I stole a candy bar that I didn't even like from a local convenience store, Christians take a highly fantisized story about a bunch of people eating and make it a religious holiday several hundred years after the fact. Happy little kiddie books made of plastic that won't get ruined when little Johhny throws up his Thanksgiving turkey all over it picture a bunch of stereotyped Indians and a bunch of black-suited, buckle-hatted pilgrims praying over a stylishly luxurious (and also highly fictional) Thanksgiving feast.

8 ) Coincidentally, Christians also steal the image of these pilgrims as being good Christian people, when in fact they didn't leave their country to get freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. Sure, they all believed in God and the Bible, but they were leaving the suffocation of the Catholic and Anglican churches, which were shoving their own Thanksgiving feasts down their throats. Back in the day, they were considered heretics, but a couple hundred years later their famous dinner with the indians is stolen and made a Christian holiday, and they are pictured as good Catholic people. It kinda reminds me of how Protestants will take Catholic popes and scholars and call them "church fathers," even though back in the day they were trying to escape from their churchly fathership.

So, you see, Yak, Thanksgiving IS a Christian holiday. If it weren't for the Christians, Thanksgiving wouldn't exist. The pilgrims certainly didn't continue the tradition, as you yourself stated.

On the other hand, I have to get aggravated when people turn around and steal them right back. Let's call Thanksgiving "Turkey Day" and Christmas "X-Mas" just because we want to have days where we can be fat bastards and get gifts but don't want to admit we are stealing it from Christians...

Who in turn stole it from Pagans.

[Nikolas]

I can't help it but: Happy thanksgiving esper!

It is howeer interesting to read all these things. I wasn't aware of a lot of these.

[TheYak]

There's some confusion to me of Christian, American and European traditions there.    The Easter Bunny's only prevalent due to marketing and secular celebrations of Easter.  In my upbringing and that of every Christian I know, the Easter Bunny is a bit of a supplanter of the "real" meaning of Easter.  Santa Claus, likewise, is often preached against as being akin to the anti-christ, seeking to remove Jesus from the holiday.  As for good ol' Jack and Halloween, they're widely despised by the Christian church, with more hardcore Christians not doing anything on that day because it's "A celebration of evil and darkness where demons and monsters are glorified". 

--edit--  realizing that I'm speaking primarily as an ex-protestant and have little knowledge as to what older branches of Christianity (and less psychotic protestant sections) might include in their religious celebrations.

The use of an Aryan Jesus in movies is less the fault of Christianity and more Hollywood's, I would imagine.  Now, the religious paintings, that's another story.  Of course, taking the basic purpose of God's son Jesus into account, it hardly matters what his nationality was, as he was coming to give us a representation we could understand and associate with (and seek to emulate).  Christians seem to concentrate on the man's works, words and general idea more than his being a human being, so race becomes an unimportant detail (though you'd think at least attempting historical accuracy would be more conducive), similar to the unlikely hairstyle that's often portrayed (seeing as how he was a Nazarine). 

This has swung way out of the path of thanksgiving and gone into yet another religious discussion. Yay.   I really don't think non-religious Thanksgiving traditions / patrons give two hoots about its potentially religious uses, nor address their thanks to God, so much as Earth/Life itself or to their fellows.   

[EldKatt]

5) Symbols from said holidays are stealinated as well. The rabbit that pictures fertility (for obvious reasons) becomes the Easter Bunny, the Jack o' Lantern that once was placed in a home from which a virgin was taken to be sacrificed stays a friggin' jack o' lantern with little to no change, the pagan Holly King become Santa Claus, only in America he's dressed in the colors of Coca Cola...

If I'm not mistaken, the modern appearance of Santa Claus, in red and all that, is derived from Swedish artist Jenny Nyström's paintings depicting the Swedish tomte, a visually somewhat similar but completely unrelated figure.

On a more relevant subject, none of these things can be seen as Christian symbols in any way, and therefore serve little purpose to prove your point. Unlike the many things Christianity really does borrow from various pagan cultures (such as Jesus Christ being conveniently born on the same day as the Roman Saturnalia, IIRC--of course, he wasn't) these things don't even pretend to be Christian.

And as neither Christianity nor any other major religion is in any way claiming to have invented its own culture from scratch, I'm not sure if I can see how these examples of theft actually mean anything. Every culture or religion is a development from an earlier culture or religion. There are no new ones. That's a fact, not a proof of how Christianity in particular is a filthy thief religion.

[esper]

PRE-BANTER WARNING
It is not my intent to argue religion. I know that is looked down on by most community members, in most communities, everywhere. Why, I don't know... a good argument on religion is often a very interesting topic, as long as people don't start oozing the unintelligent blatherschyte that their religion is better and their Holy book is true because it says it is, and their elders are speaking ex cathedra because they say they are, and, my personal dis-favorite, "It's all about faith. You can't explain it logically. You just have to believe." Bullshit. If God wrote a whole friggin' book to explain stuff, why do you you want to say it's not understandable? Is it possibly because you lack the intelligence or the self-worth to check up on it and make sure you are trusting your entire life to something that is truthful rather than something that claims to be truthful?

Anyway, like I said, I don't want to discuss any particular religion, and the benefits or detriments thereof. Rharpe was kind enough to open a thread about a religious matter (we've already established that Thanksgiving is in fact a religious holiday, as is clear by Rharpe's initial post) and I have tried my best to maintain the original matter... Thanksgiving... as a religious holiday. You will never hear me say "You must accept Jesus as your Saviour" or "If you walk to Allah he will run to you" or "You must accept the noble truths of Buddha" or "Ia Cthulhu! Ia Shub Niggurath! Ia Yog Sothoth!" (although I am much more likely to say the last). This is not a debate on opinions, but rather a conversation about historical and literary truth. If I am mistaken, or if I interject opinion here and there, it is no different than every single other post on any serious subject in this forum.

end banter. Commence thought.

It's not really my meaning to get into an argument. I was initially pointing out my opinion, which in many public forums is about equal to laying yourself bare for evisceration. However...

http://hem.passagen.se/farila/jultomte-JN2.jpg (forgive the link but for some reason IMG was returning a red x)

Do you mean this Tomte? Dressed in green, with a red hat? Since, Tomte has become synonymous with Santa Claus, and has taken on the modern appearance, dressed in the Coke colors. That was, anyways, a joke.

I had also initially meant to not point this out, but, specifically, the Catholic church (no offense, rharpe) does employ the symbology of these items, in art, advertisement, and music ("O Christmas Tree"... the Christmas tree is also another pagan symbol).

You're very right. They don't pretend to be Christian. But Christians pretend they are (let me rephrase that... certain Christians).

And furthermore, Christianity, and most religions, do indeed claim to have built themselves from scratch, regardless of what the truth may be. As Yak pointed out, there are certain denominations that will preach against a symbol while others will welcome it. The fact of the matter is, each religion claims to be true, and the progenitor of all others, and contains scriptures or holy writings that tell their followers not to be part of other trends or to follow the example of other cultures. Take the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, for instance: almost everything in the Torah was written because the Jews were not supposed to emulate another culture: you couldn't braid your hair or wear clothing of mixed fabrics or get tatoos because these were pagan practices. In fact, Israel was punished by God for wanting a king, because they saw that the lands around them had kings and that seemed to work pretty well for them.

Ã,  Ã, Thus, I do believe there is MUCH import to my arguments.

[TheYak]

I would express whole-hearted disapproval at your anti-Christian rant, except that Christians feel the need to spray their preachings my direction.  All the same, I'm hoping that you're dealing in basics and stereo-types as I've met quite a few that claim the Christian faith but are very down-to-earth, logical, or otherwise provide enjoyable company. 

Any religious person who is capable of proclaiming their religion, opening themselves up to ridicule, debating their religious and then cheerily laughing with their opponent over a beer (or Near-Beer (TM) if you prefer) is perfectly tolerable in my book.  Exceptions made for those that show up on my doorstep and can't take a little critique or take a light-hearted joke, they are surely damned to hell.

Religions and politics seem to be taboo subjects in public forums because discussions thereof seldom have any usefulness.  Unlike a discussion of different nationalities, a religious exchange isn't likely to help one group learn about another.  Personally, I don't particularly care for any zealout regardless of the subject matter.  They tend to resemble chihuahuas.

[Nikolas]

I'm not dissaprooving but I think that poor rharpe just made a wish for all of us and for his gratefullness to his luck/family/talent/etc... and we are "trespassing" this thread.

I find all of this discussion most interesting but it is unfair to be under the heading of HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!

Maybe start a new thread?

Note: I think that I'm relly flirting with the idea of being a moderator but I don't want to. It's my uprbringing...

[EldKatt]

I have no intention of discussing religion itself here (i.e. the part you label as "banter") since that never leads anywhere except in very rare cases. The rest, though:

http://hem.passagen.se/farila/jultomte-JN2.jpg (forgive the link but for some reason IMG was returning a red x)

Do you mean this Tomte? Dressed in green, with a red hat? Since, Tomte has become synonymous with Santa Claus, and has taken on the modern appearance, dressed in the Coke colors. That was, anyways, a joke.

Although he's normally dressed in gray, that's what I'm talking about. The idea of Coca-Cola having anything to do with this (besides popularizing an already established concept) is an urban legend, though. (And, to prevent misunderstand, I should point out that--although Santa Claus is indeed called "Tomten" in Swedish, this tomte isn't Santa Claus, and probably not even vaguely related.)

I had also initially meant to not point this out, but, specifically, the Catholic church (no offense, rharpe) does employ the symbology of these items, in art, advertisement, and music ("O Christmas Tree"... the Christmas tree is also another pagan symbol).

You're very right. They don't pretend to be Christian. But Christians pretend they are (let me rephrase that... certain Christians).

I've never seen any church making a point of officially using these symbols, especially not the Catholic church. "O Christmas Tree" is a traditional song of quite pagan origin, and has nothing to do with the Catholic church. Certain Christians might pretend these are completely Christian symbols, but certain Christians also play the banjo, and this is no reason to assume that the banjo is typically Christian.

And furthermore, Christianity, and most religions, do indeed claim to have built themselves from scratch, regardless of what the truth may be. As Yak pointed out, there are certain denominations that will preach against a symbol while others will welcome it. The fact of the matter is, each religion claims to be true, and the progenitor of all others, and contains scriptures or holy writings that tell their followers not to be part of other trends or to follow the example of other cultures. Take the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, for instance: almost everything in the Torah was written because the Jews were not supposed to emulate another culture: you couldn't braid your hair or wear clothing of mixed fabrics or get tatoos because these were pagan practices. In fact, Israel was punished by God for wanting a king, because they saw that the lands around them had kings and that seemed to work pretty well for them.

My point is that even those who think their core religious beliefs are wholly original, understand that their entire culture simply isn't. You're saying that a lot of religions believe themselves to be superior to others, and tell their followers not to be tricked by the other inferior ones. This is true in many cases. It does not imply, though, that they claim to have practically invented themselves and, as a people, society and culture, are rootless. Believing that would be stupid, and I assume few do. I assume most Christians acknowledge that the entire first half of their holy scripture is Jewish. That fact alone should demonstrate my point.

[esper]

Here's the shocker....

I am a Christian. As far as I'm concerned... or as far as the Bible is concerned, I'm a pretty good one, I might add.

My problem is this, and here I might actually be delving into the religious blather that people on forums tend to avoid and disapprove of. Religion is, according to religion itself, bad. Most people don't understand "Hey, I'm going to base my religion on such and such a holy book" means they have to abide by it. Not because that Holy Book or the elders of that religion say so, but because it is only logical, sensible, and fair. Anything else would be like me basing my religion on the Lord of the Rings and proclaiming myself to be the Dark Lord, Samwise Gamgee.

I have a spectacular relationship with God. I know more about theology, the Bible, other religions and cultures, and cults than most people who have been studying all their lives, because I choose to study for myself, and let no man tell me how it should be. After all, "No Scripture is to be of any private interpretation," which in the Greek means specifically "No one man can release the truth of these words." You can go through seminary and get a 100% on every exam, but the truth of the matter is you are only getting 100% on exams made by men who believe a certain way. You can teach a gorilla sign language, but that doesn't mean he understands the English words the sign language is symbolic of.

Now, let me get totally back into the original spirit of this thread.

I am thankful for men like Rharpe, who aren't ashamed to stand up and say what they believe, and who take the lesser trod path of believing the unbelieveable.

I am thankful for myself having gone through the trials of life that have brought me to my current state and standing.

I am thankful for the bad examples of men, who, because fallible, have shown me that you can't believe God by looking at His followers. Men fall. Men are human, and err, for as the adage goes, "To err is human."

I am thankful for life, and for knowledge and wisdom, and for each breath I take, with the understanding that the next might be my last.

I am thankful that I have the understanding of what is right, and wrong, and moral, and ethical. I am very thankful that because of that understanding, I can live a life where I don't have to find happiness by getting drunk or having illicit sex, or being a fool in general like 99% of the populace.

I am thankful to have full use of my capacities, physical and mental, and also spiritual. I am thankful that I see things the way that I see them.

I am thankful that, although I am very unhappy with my current position in life, that I have the skills, and talents, and knowledge, that I do, and that there is bright hope for tomorrow, even though tomorrow is clouded.

Thanks again, Rharpe. I am sorry to have hijacked the thread, seemingly.. It wasn't my intention, but looking back I see that I was kind of forceful with my views. I'll have to remember that to be folly in the future. "A fool speaketh all his mind, but the wise man keepeth it in until later." I appreciate you, and your faith, and in no way mean to make it seem as though I don't. Nor you, YakSpit. Nor anyone else.

And I'm sorry that, in this thread at least, I seem to not be able to limit my thoughts to a more concise length.

PS @ EldKatt: Your right, in everything you said. Most of what I was saying was demonstrative, not imperative. However, in the last part... You're right there, too, but the New Testament says that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and that we are "adopted" into the family of God, which, since God's chosen people are the Jews, means we have ourselves become "Jews." (in theory, of course). Therefore, being an extension of Judaism, we are part of their originality as Christians. Everything that exists outside Christendom and Judaica, ie. that which is Pagan or Heathen, is external, inferior, and is not to be associated with.

[SSH]

The idea that just because some Christian festivals have their dates on a certain day that pagan or other festivals used to happen means that they are stolen is just silly. You might as well say the my celebration of my own birthday is just a usurpation of the ancient holy celebrations of Joan of Arc, Sun Myung Moon or Rowan Atkinson's birthdays. Or Epiphany.

Of course, when it comes to ratings battles, people make sure their big guns are head-to-head... so Christians had their festivals at the same times as the ones they were trying to supplant. That doesn't mean the whole festival is the same.

[esper]

This may be going a bit overboard, but as long as we're still on the subject.

SSH, I mean no disrespect to you. I don't know you, but what I do know of you from these forums I respect, especially the love and devotion you have for your family. Thus, I'm not trying to be obnoxious or aggressive in this statement. But... Have you fully read both sides of the discussion above? It seems to me that so far everyone has agreed that it is not an idea, but rather a proven historical fact. It is a historical fact, for example, that Constantine was not trying to supplant, but rather assimilate. The feasts that were brought to the church by the "uprooted" pagans were not meant to supplant or usurp, but rather to make the pagans coming to the new state religion feel welcome by taking their symboism and feasts and giving them a decidedly Christian flair. This is the end result of my 10+ year study on the matters at hand, and I did not, as many people do, study it from one perspective. I am no armchair philosopher. This matter was not only available in many Protestant, Catholic, and secular sources, but also was acknowledged by the Roman Catholic priest under whom I studied. And the Protestant minister. And the Jehovah's Witness elders. And the Mormon elders. And the High Priestess of the Saint Louis, MO Wiccan coven, and my brother, who is a high ranking Shinto monk.  It is highly available information, although not always accepted and frequently shelved, along with all the other "dark secrets" that everyone has.

Ã,  Ã, "In This Sign, Conquer..."