I have been working out...

[Helm]

I think bodybuilding in moderation has definite benefits. As with most things, moderation is the key word.

From my point of view body-building is grotesque even as a premise. It's one thing to have an atheltic body from training or whatnot, and another to go for maximum muscle. I don't really care, nor did expect I'd have to debate this particular opinion with Big Brother or anyone around here but hey, go ahead and tell me my opinion is wrong again if you want to.

About asking whether Valentino was/is a bodybuilder, yes it wasn't I RUB MY QUESTION IN YOUR FACE but more 'huh? what? this guy isn't a bodybuilder? Since when?'. You chose to not include certain people into the bodybuilding club, those that use steroids I guess, and how where I to know that were the 'house rules' about bodybuilding for you? Two different documentaries I've seen about this grotesque, mainly american passtime said that a majority of professional bodybuilders use steroids.

He might be a shitty bodybuilder, but he's a bodybuilder from my point of view.

But seriously, post almost any picture of a beefy bodybuilder and I'd think he looks almost as bad. In my mind that's just not how human bodies should get.

About metal being music for cavemen, sure, I won't explode in your face if you call it that, I'd just tell you it's a statement I -partly- disagree with.

[big brother]

Just because I don't compete does not nullify the activity that I've been doing. You might not be able to call Valentino a competitive or professional bodybuilder, however, regardless of steroids he is a bodybuilder.

Where did I say steroid use disqualified him? I'm saying he's not a bodybuilder, not just because he doesn't compete,  but he couldn't EVEN IF HE WANTED TO. This is the main difference between your soccer analogy. With his synthol augmentation, he literally cannot enter recognized IFBB (like FIFA is to soccer) competition. It's like being wheelchair bound and trying to enter the track and field in the traditional summer Olympics.

In addition, dieting is a bigger part of bodybuilding than weight training is, something that differentiates it from powerlifting or recreational lifting. Body fat percentage wise, Valentino is nowhere close to where he'd need to be for bodybuilding.

You chose to not include certain people into the bodybuilding club, those that use steroids I guess, and how where I to know that were the 'house rules' about bodybuilding for you?

When did I say he was disqualified due to steroid use??? House rules? I was talking about regulations from the sport's governing body. I'm using that as the absolute definition, because otherwise it'd be pointless arguing, since every definition would be subjective and it would boil down to a difference of opinion, "agree to disagree" and rainbows and kittens.

Two different documentaries I've seen about this grotesque, mainly american passtime said that a majority of professional bodybuilders use steroids.

A majority of NFL, MLB, cycling, and Olympic athletes use anabolic steroids. It's difficult to test for, especially when minimal cycles are needed for results. Not really sure how this is relevant.

If the judges or scientists participate in bodybuilding, then yes.

So they must participate to become a "product of their environment"? Only by their volition it affects them? This line of reasoning leads to some interesting ramifications.

I think bodybuilding in moderation has definite benefits. As with most things, moderation is the key word.

Because not every bodybuilder uses anabolics or human growth hormone but they all lift, we can list all of those benefits (increased testosterone production, sex drive, and metabolism, higher self esteem, slowed aging)  without having to mention negative side effects from prolonged drug use. Being able to eat pizza and drink beer without losing a six pack in exchange for 3 hours of work per week seems like a good trade to me.

To argue about being snide, seems moot when you call him Telemachus.

It's his name. The one his parents gave him in the real off-line world. If I called him "buddy" or "pal" then I could see how that's snide. "Chief" has a nice ring to it also.

I don't think he was challenging things for the sake of being fractious, I think he was challenging because he was actually correct through his definition. Just as you are correct through your definition. And he's arguing for the same reason you're arguing, because he thinks he's correct, and gosh darn it, it's also fun.

Here's a hyperbole: if I defined the earth as flat, I could make some astounding postulations about modern physics. Ultimately, I too would be CORRECT through my definition. Despite that feel-good phrase, no scientist would take me seriously.

Once again, credibility....ethos, etc.

Continuing the metal analogy, say I assert that The Doobie Brothers are an example of metal, since they were infamous for performing rock concerts at very loud volumes. Say someone with some music knowledge disagrees, then I resort to the "aggressive and heavily amplified rock music" part of the definition of "heavy metal" from the prestigious dictionary.com. By that definition, I am correct. (For this example to parallel Helm's case, I would have to have never attended a concert, and not used an outside source for the definition.)

I would be posting out of ignorance, right?

[Helm]

Where did I say steroid use disqualified him? I'm saying he's not a bodybuilder, not just because he doesn't compete,  but he couldn't EVEN IF HE WANTED TO. This is the main difference between your soccer analogy. With his synthol augmentation, he literally cannot enter recognized IFBB (like FIFA is to soccer) competition.

For the purposes of this argument, a person that doesn't fulfull the criteria for entering a FIFA-sanctioned match but once did (like Valentino in bodybuilding) might not be an active professional football player, but is a retired football player. That was my argument, and it remains. I don't care if Valentino is practicing since it is irrelevant to the case I'm making. Which was from the begining that people from the bodybuilding scene can grow extremely odd-looking without being photoshop jobs. I could post people who are IFBB ready and are still making me puke, will that cap off this side of this strange argument I find myself into?

When did I say he was disqualified due to steroid use??? House rules? I was talking about regulations from the sport's governing body. I'm using that as the absolute definition, because otherwise it'd be pointless arguing, since every definition would be subjective and it would boil down to a difference of opinion, "agree to disagree" and rainbows and kittens.

Fair enough, but as I said, show me a 'proper' bodybuilder and let's discuss pukage over that, Valentino's not really that useful to my argument, which is based on a pretty natural destaste for this type of body-warping.

A majority of NFL, MLB, cycling, and Olympic athletes use anabolic steroids. It's difficult to test for, especially when minimal cycles are needed for results. Not really sure how this is relevant.

The documentaries I saw made a direct connection between such abnormal physiques as Valentino's and steroid use. While even the documentaries concerned said that the link isn't exactly medically proven and that Valentino was injecting a lot of things besides steroids, it's not really the level of detail that interests me. What interests me is this: the human body becomes like that of the bodybuilder through not only training and dieting, but injecting stuff into you. That's pretty gross for me.

Even if you take the injecting out of the equation though, and we can all pretend body builders get like that through just training, just one look at the models (I can't pretend they're athletes, as for all their rigorious excercise and dieting in the end what they do is stand, flex and smile) walking the distance to the stage, duck-footed, their own bodies hindering their basic function of WALKING or CROSSING THEIR ARMS I find that pretty gross and depressing as well.

It's his name. The one his parents gave him in the real off-line world. If I called him "buddy" or "pal" then I could see how that's snide. "Chief" has a nice ring to it also.

But you're not my parent. And this is the internet, it's considered proper decorum to adress someone as he chose to be adressed online, unless specifically stated otherwise. I go by 'Helm' in this forum, not Telemachus. What you did then, implies some sort of familiarity there between the two of us that calls for the omission of this decorum, where there is none. We are neither friends nor have we ever extensively talked, even. Can you see how that could be considered snide? I didn't take insult to that though, but the reasoning you provided for it seems dodgy.

Continuing the metal analogy, say I assert that The Doobie Brothers

As I said, go ahead and post bodybuilders who are bodybuilders, and probably I'll feel grossed out too. If Valentino is the 'Linkin Park' equivallent to my metal, then show me the 'Iron Maiden' equivallent to my metal and let's discuss this perfect-looking man.

[Andail]

How's this? I think they are goblins.

[big brother]

For the purposes of this argument, a person that doesn't fulfull the criteria for entering a FIFA-sanctioned match but once did (like Valentino in bodybuilding) might not be an active professional football player, but is a retired football player. That was my argument, and it remains.

For this analogy to be parallel, your ex-FIFA competitor would be a paraplegic. Athletes can return to the sport after retiring, unlike Valentino's case.

You seem to be splitting hairs just to find a way to justify your original assertion. Sure some IFBB bodybuilders appear freakish in their competition photos. Valentino, however freakish he may look, is not in this category. It's like looking at a wigger food court gangsta and calling all hip hop artists ugly. Please understand this fallacy.

...Valentino's not really that useful to my argument...

Is this the closest you will get to admitting you were wrong?

...the human body becomes like that of the bodybuilder through not only training and dieting, but injecting stuff into you. 

This statement is false. I would hope these documentaries had the integrity not to make a point like this. There are plenty of drug-free bodybuilders (Skip La Cour, for instance). Even with drugs, it takes lots of work to build a similar physique. 

Second thing you should know: in a competition, a bodybuilder can look like he does in the photos for maybe a few days max. By the time he hits the stage, he's so dehydrated and underweight (generally lost about 40 pounds or so in a short amount of time before a competition).

To make another music analogy, it's not like Gene Simmons wears face paint to the grocery store.

I can't pretend they're athletes, as for all their rigorious excercise and dieting in the end what they do is stand, flex and smile

Again, I'll avoid arguing over the opinion portions of your statements. Just...credibility...ethos. Think about your own athletic achievements before you belittle other's.

I go by 'Helm' in this forum, not Telemachus. What you did then, implies some sort of familiarity there between the two of us that calls for the omission of this decorum, where there is none.

Ok, I apologize. I'm used to a social environment where acquaintances call me by my Christian name, so this is unusual to me. I did not know that its use is exclusive to your immediate family. This is the first time you've corrected that, so in my defense, I couldn't have known. It was still a blunder, so I hope you can see past this transgression.

As I said, go ahead and post bodybuilders who are bodybuilders, and probably I'll feel grossed out too. If Valentino is the 'Linkin Park' equivallent to my metal, then show me the 'Iron Maiden' equivallent to my metal and let's discuss this perfect-looking man.

Why? You have very entrenched views. It'd be like taking trailer trash to the Museum of Modern Art. Hearing "my kid could draw that" is not going to be very fulfilling for me.

[Helm]

I'm glad this argument is over, then.

[LimpingFish]

Nevermind actual bodybuilders, what about the people who view this "sport"?

Is it just the "Whoa, dude! You are RIPPED!" factor, or is it something else?

Past instances where I've happened to catch a TV broadcast of a bodybuilding event, for any amount of time longer than it takes me to depress the next channel button on my remote, the only reason I can see for watching is to compare how freakish these people can get.

The sport itself seems to be based on rewarding the person who can develop their body to the most extremely defined degree. The only goal is to be more ripped than the person before you. The competion is actually over before it has began, as the competitor who turns up with the best defined set of muscles has already won. Where is the appeal in this event for a spectator?except for oily, orange people.

I'm sure somebody is going to point out that it isn't that basic, and there is a whole set of variables that contestants are judged on, etc, etc. But for the spectator it seems to boil down to the same thing; a parade of oily people pulling shapes. I just don't see the appeal.

It's like Crufts, except the contestants are oily orange-skinned people.

[ManicMatt]

BB, I don't get it. If Valentino builds his body, how do you define him? I still see it as a definition of what you do than a profession.

Sounds to me like saying a person who can sing isn't a singer unless they have a record contract.

[big brother]

Track and field athletes run. I run. Therefore, I am a track and field athlete. Sounds funny, right?

Bodybuilding is more than just lifting weights, just like track and field is about more than just running.

Does that help clarify it for you?

[Andail]

The problem is that most laymen - along with probably most dictionaries - have a more liberal view on the term, and do not automatically connect it with all those rules and codes and abbreviations that you have insight in. Most people simply consider a person who builds his body a bodybuilder, full stop.

But I think we now know better. We now know that people who build their bodies are bodybuilders to the same limited extent as those who simply run automatically become track and field athletes.

[ManicMatt]

When you say track and field athlete, that suggests an athlete that goes on track and field!

It would be like saying "Runner", to that effect. It doesnt explain if they run proffessionally or not.

When you say bodybuilder, that suggests someone who builds their body!

I think it's an insufficient description, if anything.

Now, looking at this wiki, of which I don't have the fullest confidence in, it being a wiki, but...

Bodybuilding is the process of developing muscle fibres through the combination of weight training, specific caloric intake, and rest. Someone who engages in this activity is referred to as a bodybuilder. As a sport, called competitive bodybuilding, bodybuilders display their physiques to a panel of judges, who assign points based on their aesthetic appearance.

EDIT: Then Andail posts, haha