Help me find a RPG engine please :)

[Ponch]

My own Engine...I never really thought of making such a thing but if I learn how to then I will!

Keep hope alive, Icey!  8)

[Icey]

I um...didn't know he was joking.....

My own Engine...I never really thought of making such a thing but if I learn how to then I will!

Keep hope alive, Icey!  8)

I would like to give it a shot but now I just lost a lot of confidence in myself from the truth behind Khris's world.

[Ghost]

Programming just a combat system from scratch is no mean feat even for an experienced programmer. I'd say that you're at beginner level, and learning the language alone can take a while (time in which you will write very simple test programs indeed). And that would just be one aspect of your "new engine", which would also need things like characters being able to walk on a map, a ruleset for magic and items, save/load feature... and that would just be some BASICS.

See, you don't start learning to program with the most complex thing you can imagine.
If you do, it's bound to end in tears.
TEARS!!!!- you hear me!

[Icey]

That makes sense. I was thinking maybe I could get some of my friends who are willing to help and work on this. Or I could do like Micheal Jordan and have little kids work for me for like $25 a day. That's probably the most messed up thing I ever said but it was still a joke.

[Scavenger]

I already know how to make a decent short RPG. I think I will survive if I just build off what I know now.

So far you haven't made an RPG. You've made visual techdemos that superficially look like RPGs. Do you know how RPGs work? Like, could you write down what each stat does and what bearing it has on the battle system? There's a lot more to them than "Turn based, people's numbers gets reduced each turn". Do you know how an rpg plays, behind the scenes? Without this knowledge, you're not making a game.

AGS is more than capable of creating an RPG. You could implement Call of Cthulhu, Dungeons and Dragons, GURPS, or even FATE or FUDGE into AGS and have a workable RPG system without breaking your back on complex programming (so long as you don't have a grid system). It might take a while, but it's possible, and I can think of several ways to do it.

I don't think you know how RPGs work, otherwise you wouldn't be asking so broad a question. You don't need C++ or XNA or any kind of fancy thing to create what you need. You need the right knowledge, and that knowledge can only be attained by studying the progenitors of CRPGs, not the CRPGs themselves. Don't be arrogant in thinking you know everything you need to know - you have only scratched the surface of RPGs, you must go deeper!

Doing an RPG without the right knowledge is like making a war film without knowing anything about wars except for "Saving Private Ryan". You don't create a good war film, you just create a shallow, bastardised imitation of "Saving Private Ryan".

RPGs are one of the most complex game types you can create, and if it isn't done correctly or in a consistent, balanced way, you end up with an unplayable mess.

Forget limit breaks, forget fancy levelling up skills, forget licences, forget fancy job systems and summoning and everything you've played from those thrice damned Square Enix titles.

Just find a tabletop RPG, and play it. Read the rulebook, and transfer the knowledge to AGS. It'll give you all the math you need, crystal clear in black and white, with initiative and combat resolution all laid out for you.
I recommend:
http://www.theredboxblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/dd-bbox.jpg
Since it's incredibly basic. Incredibly. Someone else might suggest a more modern one that's more streamlined, but this is where RPGs began, really. It's the base of Final Fantasy. It's the Ur-RPG.

Until you know this, and how RPGs evolved from this, you know nothing about RPGs. And don't contradict me, since the most successful RPGs have built upon tabletop roleplaying knowledge. Even your Final Fantasy. This is indisputable.

Sure, you can design an RPG if you want. Just know what an rpg is before you start.

[Anian]

Didn't even DnD switch to a sort of grid system in the newest editions? I'm not sure since I still haven't played DnD (it's not actually that popular around these parts and it is really hard to find somebody and make them show you how to play after you read the books).

Anyway, indeed studying systems from tabletop RPG is essential...on the front of internet there's loads of stuff to search and explore, and this is just the tip of the iceberg:

http://www.devmaster.net/articles.php
http://www.gamedev.net/index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_battle_systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Role-playing_game_systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS

Who know's might give you inspiration for a new system and one day Square will implement it into their games.

[Icey]

Huummm, I'm gonna check this out.

[Icey]

I found this: http://www.giantbomb.com/conditional-turn-based-battle/92-2432/concepts/

[Khris]

Right. Did you read what Scavenger wrote? What you found is a short overview of different types of battles. How is that of ANY use to you?

Let me give you an example.

-Male Chrono Trigger character's physical attack value: (PWR × 4/3) + (weapon's attack × 5/9)

-The Dark Eye (German RPG franchise) uses attributes like this: 1D6 + 4. In this case the weapon's attack value each round is determined by adding 4 to the result of throwing a six-sided die.
If it's your character's turn to attack, you throw a twenty-sided die. If the result is less or equal than your character's attack value, you get to "pass the test". A successful attack consists of your character passing an attack test and the enemy failing a parry test. Now, the weapons attack value is decreased by status effects and the enemy's armor, then the result is subtracted from the enemy's health points.
*This* is a basic battle system.

In other words:

Pseudo-

Code: ags

  if (player.BaseAttack < Random(19) + 1) Console.AddLine("Your attack misses!");
  else if (enemy.BaseParry >= Random(19) + 1) Console.AddLine("The enemy parries your attack!");
  else {
    attack = player.weapon.GetAttack();
    if (player.tired) attack--;
    attack -= enemy.armor.GetValue();
    if (attack > 0) {
      enemy.HP -= attack;
      Console.AddLine("You hit the enemy, doing a damage of %d!", attack);
    }
    else Cosole.AddLine("Your attack was too weak a didn't do any damage.");
  }

This is what an actual battle system looks like on the inside, not subtracting 50 every time a button is clicked.

[Ghost]

Yup. And now try to recode the Pokemon battle system, with its dozen+ of elemental types and roughly 500 mons...
And stats.
And weather conditions.
Ooo, and the breeding code.
Oh yeah, and the actual GAME framework around that.

You found the TIP of the iceberg. See it loom?

[edit]
I think we can agree that we've established the fact that it can take a TEAM of PROFESSIONAL programmers several YEARS to get a good game engine just FUNCTIONAL.
Carry on.

[another edit]
I really do NOT want to sound like a complete snaker here. I appreciate enthusiam, and I think many stood where you are right now. With editors and information readily available, you may think that "it can't be hard" to create your own systems, your own engines, your own tools. I can remember how thrilled I was when I found toolkits like GameMaker, RPGMaker, AGS and even the (at its time) top notch "Klik''n'Play". You think it's going to be a piece of cake. But really it isn't. Even being able to code well isn't the same as being good at coming up with a functional RPG system. Some people can write code like nothing but lack the talent to get such a system right. Lots of people can do good artwork but can't even program their video recorder.  Combining in one person the ability to code well, do graphics, and being a rule-crafter... now that's rare.

LeKris: "Dark Eye"! That really brings back LeFond LeMemories!

[Icey]

@khris: I read what he said my reply went to him and ghost. And I see what you mean.

@ghost: I never knew it was that hard to make a Pokemon game.

[Ghost]

@ghost: I never knew it was that hard to make a Pokemon game.

Which (sorry) just shows that you do not seem to understand the mechanics of a role playing game. As Khris showed, even simple attack/defense/damage can be quite complex: You do NOT want to have each attack deal the same amount of damage each time, and you do not want each attack to hit (or miss). You have to take into account every attribute and variable you're about to use. And you have to test and balance that.

Now let's say you just go for mundane weapons, and just two types (swords and bows). Implement it, check, then test and balance it. Check. And then you think, hey, let's have a weapon that deals ICE damage. That's another factor that directly affects every other aspect: Can you counter that? Is armour a protection? Does an attribute enhance or dampen it? And each time you add another feature, it's again to be tested and balanced against every other already implemented feature.

Just for fun:


That's how experience gain is calculated in PKMN Black/White. And yes, that is SIMPLE math.

[Khris]

Oh my.

Icey, what did you think where all those numbers in the stats menu pages in RPGs came from? Are you really this oblivious to even basic RPG math?

To conclude this sad episode: you don't need another engine. You need lots of coding practice and you need to get yourself some tabletop rulebooks to get a grasp of the basic concepts.

In the meantime, why don't you improve your general game making skills? Your MAGS has all kinds of gameplay flaws, unclear exits being a prominent one (not to mention the impossibility of uncrossing your eyes far enough to actually see the 3D effect).

[WHAM]

What Khris said, and what Ghost said.
I've tried developing a small RPG style system for a browser based strategy game with a friend of mine and after 6 months of making plans and forms, it is nowhere near balanced or functional, or even close to its goal of scaling in a balanced manner.

Open up a Final Fantasy game, look at the status screen of a character, make note of how many stats there are and then understand that what you see, every single number, has a meaning and a purpose. In Final Fantasy games that purpose is often obscure and minimal and you can hardly affect it, but it is there and a bunch of people put countless hours of work into making it WORK.

There are no shortcuts here. I think there are guides out there on the internet, but even with them you need to LEARN how to interpert them, how to modify and implement them in a meaningful way so that they create gameplay and excitement. Like, in a game.

EDIT: I do have to admit that Icey's attempts have encouraged me to make an attemp at developing and RPG with AGS some time in the future. so thank you, Icey, for doing at least something good for me.

[Scavenger]

@ghost: I never knew it was that hard to make a Pokemon game.

Then this will blow your mind:
http://www.d20srd.org/

Left column only. In an RPG, designed to be calculated by humans, there's hundreds of hours of work balancing classes, magic, races, monsters, special abilities, magical items, and different environmental effects. And still it isn't 100% perfect.

The core is relatively simple, roll d20, add your modifiers. Is the result higher than the target number? Then you pass. Is it not? Then you fail. But the devil is in the details, and the conditions under which you have the modifiers.

And this is just basic, raw mechanics. Implementing them in a way that makes it fun for the player is a whole other level. RPGs are hard to make. They are hard. When they work, they're excellent. When they don't.... they suck worse than any other genre, because you lose cohesion over what's going on. At least a bad shooter plays like a shooter. A bad adventure game can still be completed, even with dead ends and walking deads et al. A bad platformer isn't fun, but is still technically a platformer and you can see it's flaws right there laid out at you. Bad jumping, bad collission detection etc etc.

A bad rpg? Poorly balanced or scaled or implemented? Is not a game at all.

[Ghost]

I think we scared him now, and we haven't yet have talked about Diablo 2's Random Item Generator.

[Ponch]

As Khris showed, even simple attack/defense/damage can be quite complex: You do NOT want to have each attack deal the same amount of damage each time, and you do not want each attack to hit (or miss). You have to take into account every attribute and variable you're about to use. And you have to test and balance that.

But those are exactly the decisions I made in OSD: Archipelago Adventures! Every weapon does 1 point of damage! Are you saying that my OSD opus isn't a real RPG?!    ( )

[Snake]

[another edit]
I really do NOT want to sound like a complete snaker here...

Watch it, Pal...

[Icey]

@Ghost & Khris: I am aware that is is a lot of determining how things work in a RPG. I also have things set up so I will be able to work with it. I try not to add anything like buffs and stuff to my game cause that is also something that will constantly need test.

@WHAM: I play and review a lot of FF & kh games to get a better understanding on things that might help me with ideas for mt games. however I always plan it out on paper cause though it looks nice I might not be able to even code it.

@Scavenger: I could def review that for help with my games however there are a lot of reason why that type of fight wont help me. Example being that my next OSD game's Battles are setup weird but they only work if I focus on making them work. When Dennis attacks the enemy with his sword the Damage is based upon the swords current ATK # and the Attack never misses. The attack number is increased when you level up. +1 EXP is gain every time you attack a target.

My point is that I never really worry about adding things like DEF, DEX, INT, etc... cause to me leveling up in this game will not be hard but it will take some time. And as long as you have Potions/HI-Potions and the right Command Cards then you should be straight.

I just thought of something! the best way to gain EXP in the game will be to face a opponent with a low ATK # and use low MP ATK # cards to attack it and just keep healing it and keep healing yourself. You just have to have a lot of ether's to restore your MP.

[WHAM]

My point is that I never really worry about adding things like DEF, DEX, INT, etc... cause to me leveling up in this game will not be hard but it will take some time. And as long as you have Potions/HI-Potions and the right Command Cards then you should be straight.

I just thought of something! the best way to gain EXP in the game will be to face a opponent with a low ATK # and use low MP ATK # cards to attack it and just keep healing it and keep healing yourself. You just have to have a lot of ether's to restore your MP.

What you describe is not an RPG, it's just a hollow shell of a game that is made to look slightly like an JRPG game. Have fun making it, I don't think anyone will have fun playing it in that form. If there is no character developement and no leveling up and no stats like STR, DEF, DEX, INT etc, you can just as well skip the fighting altogether and just have the characters walk from place to place, talking and doing all the fighting in cutscenes. Why make the plaer bother with the clicking if the game can be automatically beaten by "having enough potions".

I've lost hope in this project of yours. Fare thee well on your journeys!