and when is too far way too far...
when it comes to story/graphics/sounds etc.
if you develope a game that is meant to be provocative, how far can you go before you cross the line?
just curious?
The more provocative you make a game, the narrower the audience you can reach with the game.
Then again, I believe that those (like yourself, I would guess) who enjoy entertainment of a more provocative sort will enjoy the game even more for it.
There is no perfect solution, I'm afraid...
Well said wham. :D
Too far legally speaking or what?
Because it's very hard to draw lines when it comes to what people will enjoy or accept. People have different tastes. As long as you warn people what they should expect, go crazy.
If you feel the need to depict violence and nudity for the sake of authenticity and atmosphere, don't let people's opinions hinder your creative license.
Simple and complicated question at the same time. Great topic, Perkele2012!
That depends very much on the maturity & curiosity of your audience and their disposition
to 'enter on a journey' that might not always make them feel at ease.
And for me personally, it depends whether it's a provocation for the provocation's sake, or
if the overall vision will grant me new insights (very individual!) on certain topics, that are not my own.
Really have to think some more about this question... :) NICE!
This depends highly on which culture you're aiming for.
I also feel the need to clarify this a little bit as to my own views:
If you are going for controversial subjects, offensive material and nudity+gore approaches, to name a few examples, make damn well suree you have a story and in-game context to show this sort of material. Offensive material just for the sake of being offensive and provokative is meritless and pointless and I personally find such endeavours highly disgusting. A game can have gore and other horrible, horrible things, but there has to be a justification for it in the game's story and characters.
An example of a bad idea: watch any of the Hostel movies, or perhaps Human Centipede. Or watch this nice movie called "A Serbian film" and you will definitely see how this provocation can go wrong.
Just of curiosity, can someone elaborate what is that "line" that should not be crossed?
Is that a line at which players start to puke right where they sit, or come to your house with pitchforks and torches?
Also, doesn't it depend on what kind of "provocation" do you want to achieve?
What if you are going to, I don't know, provoke people to start World War 3 or something; should there be any limits then?
I think the "line" is perceived to be the point at which the contents of the game stop being a source of entertainment and intrigue for the viewer, and become uncomfortable and repulsive. While this is subjective and each viewer perceives things differently, some things are generally seen as crossing "the line" almost globally. This is why, for example, the only country to really produce videogames about rape and sex with minors are the japanese (as far as I know at least) whereas elsewhere in the world such an ideas are seen as "crossing the line".
Does that answer your question in any way?
Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/07/2012 12:14:54
Does that answer your question in any way?
Yes, I think so.
I was kidding a little bit though ;)
I didn't even realize you were kidding, so my bad. :)
I always find discussions of this subject of interest, as I myself am a firm believer that there should not be any line to cross, that for entertainment all matters, subjects, styles and themes should be open for exploration and experimentation (as long as they are done well), and thus I am also interested in hearing other people discussing the subject to hear their opinions as well. I also think such discussion would serve well to answer (Suomi-Finland)Perkele's question, as well as to map out some general opinions in the AGS community, so it's a win-win situation.
Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/07/2012 11:17:05
If you are going for controversial subjects, offensive material and nudity+gore approaches, to name a few examples, make damn well suree you have a story and in-game context to show this sort of material.
Well, maybe. There's also the ancient marketing maxim that "Sex Sells", so many products are known to be received better with some gratuitous nudity thrown in, even if it serves no purpose in the story.
The same applies to violence, as long as it's not graphical gore: a movie or game about fighting can be expected to sell even (or especially) without any kind of story.
Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/07/2012 12:31:02
I didn't even realize you were kidding, so my bad. :)
As I said, I was "kidding a little bit". I mean, I was partially serious at the same time. Also I forgot to add smiley to my post! (funny how that changes the message)
It is obvious then that the "line" people are speaking about is being
pushed further all the time by people who cross it.
If we keep that in mind, the answer on the topicstarter's question will be: cross the line a little; at first people will ban you, but later your work will be a part of mainstream. (Am I kidding now? heh)
What bothers me is rather the reason, why the game is supposed to be provocative on the first place? Is it because the creator wants to get some attention, or he tries to make his ideas more expressive?
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Tue 03/07/2012 12:51:18
What bothers me is rather the reason, why the game is supposed to be provocative on the first place? Is it because the creator wants to get some attention, or he tries to make his ideas more expressive?
Those are the two ways. The first one is a bad thing and people who do that, provoke just for the attention and the sake of provoking, are bad people who make bad entertainment only to get attention.
It's the latter group whom I think should be those who push the boundaries and change things. I also want to belong in the latter group, as provoking people in a meaningful way can also be used to provoke thought from people, get them to re-evaluate their experiences, morals and values.
Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/07/2012 13:12:13
I also want to belong in the latter group, as provoking people in a meaningful way can also be used to provoke thought from people, get them to re-evaluate their experiences, morals and values.
Lately (well, not last day, but maybe last couple of years) I was thinking that grotesque could be useful when you are trying to depict people's moral failures in such a way that they will better understand it; since people tend to get used to the ways they live, sometimes one needs either bright contrast, or strong exaggeration to let them see themselves from side-viewer's position.
Is it the same what you mean?
Now we come down to what we want to show the viewer and how to justify such things in the game. When exaggerating things, I think it is quite easy to overdo the exaggerating and if we are, for example, talking about violence, then what might have been intended as thought-provoking commentary on the violence of human nature and existence can quite easily be perceived as nothing but mindless gratuitous violence without message. In here it is important to create the framework, the story, the characters and the situations in which these exaggerations are made, so as to not lose the intended message.
Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/07/2012 10:52:07
The more provocative you make a game, the narrower the audience you can reach with the game.
Then again, I believe that those (like yourself, I would guess) who enjoy entertainment of a more provocative sort will enjoy the game even more for it.
There is no perfect solution, I'm afraid...
lol like myself... :shocked: well it might be true that i enjoy provocative sort of entertainmen ( how do i say that without sounding like a really... really bad man... LOL )
it´s not really the provocative parts i enjoy, but what i dont like is when the choice aint mine to make, as an example, early fallout games, you could even kill children in those, wich was removed for the later parts. it didnt mean that i went on a killing kids rampage but the possibility that i could do something like it made the game feel more... authentic maybe...
i dont like provocation without a cause, i want it to fulfill a purpose... killing kids in fallout never had a purpose ( except bad reputation in the wasteland )
Fallout had prostitution,slavery and excessive use of violence,drugs,alcohol... most subjects quite provocating, tho it was made with style... so was never the shocker it could have been. another example... POSTAL!! wich purpose was to provoke and nothing more... i mean set a dude on fire then piss on him so he survives ( yes i did try that :grin: ) but overall... a very very veeeerrrryyyyy bad game...
and back to my own question...
i didnt really have any purpose other than see where people draw the line from where entertainment stops being entertainment.
I for one,just as soumi finland(WHAM) i presume, like to explore the more "darker" side of the human nature, to see what actually makes you tick.
( doesnt mean i do bad things hehe, im just wondering about them... )
Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/07/2012 11:17:05
Or watch this nice movie called "A Serbian film"
Note: do not watch this.
Quote from: Perkele2012 on Tue 03/07/2012 15:20:07
killing kids in fallout never had a purpose ( except bad reputation in the wasteland )
Objection! One of the brats at the casino pickpocketed me so I blasted the damn runt with a full auto burst to the torso. Bastard earned AND learned her lesson! :D
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Tue 03/07/2012 16:07:45
Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/07/2012 11:17:05
Or watch this nice movie called "A Serbian film"
Note: do not watch this.
Yeah, I sort of used that thing (I won't call it a movie anymore) as an overt example of things gone wrong. You have to be a pretty jaded and twisted individual to come out of the experience without some mental scars. Wouldn't recommend it for the family movie night, or any other night.
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Tue 03/07/2012 16:07:45
A Serbian film
Quote
A Serbian film
I'm curious now... Was it worse then the human Centipede 2?
There was a discussion about this before.
As WHAM said, make sure you have a reason for crossing lines and showing stuff that's edgy. Personally, from what I've read, I wouldn't watch the Serbian film because it's annoying and basically things feel forced to violence to make it brutal and I just don't want to watch that, not because I'm disgusted, but because I just really don't wish to spend my time like that.
It also doesn't show creativity - making things scary without showing them always has a better effect, because instead of disgust you get pure scare and nervousness. Watching a guy take a saw in his hand and showing his hand in a cuff, stuck to a radiator and then something like scream and change of scene, gives far cleaner feelings and dread than actually showing how the hand is sawed through.
There's a good example, I also mentioned before, like Gilliam's movie Tideland (the book is weird as well) where there's a point to everything and everything scary, weird and sick for a reason and has a point. A lot of Palahniuk stories are like that as well. Use extreme things as spice not as the main ingredient and you'll get a much better response from people.
Quoteif you develope a game that is meant to be provocative, how far can you go before you cross the line?
if you want to be provocative you have to cross a line. Where would be the provocation for anybody if you just redid stuff done a thousand times before. And once you crossed the line you will see how far you will go from there.
About a serbian film, this is a stupid film, just a collage of weird and ugly sexscenes. But not as bad as all the august underground films or slaughtered vomit dolls. Well, after all this sick shit I was a bit disappointed by the end.
Spoiler
After the main guy did terrible things to his own son and fucked everything else that was in his way and smashed the director guys' head on the ground I expected him to smash this guy's head so hard that there would be a hole in the back of his head and then stick is dick in there too. That would have been a fitting end and somehow funny in the overall sick mood of the film...
That sounds pretty horrible. But after stuff I've seen the internet nothing suprises me anymore/grosses me out.
As for how far is two far, When your only crossing the line to push the limits not for a story reason.
People who say social experiment this and that always sounds kinda lazy to me.
I'm all for a dark story but theres so many ways to express and get reactions and people to feel emotion then going to an extreme.
Horror genre seems to do this alot imo.
For me "too far" is when a director takes a left turn and lets the villain get away with it just to fuck with the audience and say, "well, you guys didn't see that coming, see this is secretly a message about how we're desensitized to violence and root for the hero and everything has to happy ending BUT MY MOVIE DOESN'T!"
Like, an example where it's done right is Natural Born Killers, an example where it's done wrong is Funny Games. I hated that movie, and not just for the fourth wall breaking, but just in general. It didn't make me think, it just pissed me off, which is what the director said his intentions were. I think if you're making a movie just to piss people off (i.e. Human Centipede 2, the first was actually enjoyable) then you're doing it wrong.
Then again, I'm not a director, so whatever, to each their own.
I actually I rather like when directors do that well, watch Gran Torino. It also had a lot of racism that poked fun at how politically correct America has become, people make a big deal out of everything. Just do what everyone else said, don't be offensive jut for the sake of it, make sure your story fits like Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain.
Quote from: Armageddon on Thu 05/07/2012 02:11:42
I actually I rather like when directors do that well, watch Gran Torino. It also had a lot of racism that poked fun at how politically correct America has become, people make a big deal out of everything. Just do what everyone else said, don't be offensive jut for the sake of it, make sure your story fits like Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain.
I love indigo prophecy.
How far is too far?
Good question.
I expect culture may play a role in this as well as other groups.
My views (as an uncivilized westerner):
Generally, whatever you deal with should be true to itself in terms of what you should allow players to see and what THEY expect to see.
If you deal with a violent group then violence is what the players expect, not just a slap on the wrist.
Nudity, well, if it's tastefully done, provocative and true to the story that's fine but showing what could be termed as a 'porno' is I think too far for say AGS. EG: A fat, ugly woman in a nighty beckoning a young lad on could be conceived as 'provocative' yet 'funny'.
The people who love gore should be allowed, if warned, to view it in its true form. In games/films it is all pretend and no one actually gets hurt, most people are not that stupid.
If they WANT to see a guy get chainsawed then let them. An example would be a train going over someone cutting them in 3. If they are warned about the game content then it is their choice whether they play it or not.
Look at Quake, Doom and others like it, you go around blasting enemy brains out!! As in 'Hostel', the viewers who expect gore get gore in spades.
In this day and age the limits have been well pushed forward and not much is taboo, except stuff like rape,incest and bestiality etc.
Forewarned is foretold, they say.
A great example of true violence (violence and gore are not the same obviously, I personally think just a small amount of gore can be shocking in it's own way if you don't have any before it) is A Clockwork Orange, everything in that film considered 'offensive' had a reason for being there. It was to explore the dark side of humans, lust, greed, and anger. It was a masterpiece. Something that everyone should watch if you want offensive content not just for the sake of being offensive.
Good post, Armageddon.
Is that movie good? It was looking up a list of the best movies and I ended up watching "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" instead.
Personally I think it's overrated compared to modern film standards but for it's time I'm sure it made jaws drop in the theater. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of Kubrick though. Most of his stuff doesn't appeal to me, and like Tarantino, he's a really talented man who's perpetually short an editor who's not a yes man. (i.e. their films are always like 40 minutes too long)
I'm not a Tarantino fan, Anywho I might have to check it out.
Not to derail the thread (You can pm me.) But does anyone have any recommendations for some movies that are dark?
Quote from: Frito Master on Thu 05/07/2012 22:48:44
I'm not a Tarantino fan, Anywho I might have to check it out.
Not to derail the thread (You can pm me.) But does anyone have any recommendations for some movies that are dark?
Try martyr if you havent seen it yet, french movie, quite gruesome. Or you could try hierro, a good spanish movie
Not all dark in the same way as the (mostly horrible) films which have been discussed so far, but all concerning violence and suffering:
Old Boy
The Cook, The Thief, His Wife and Her Lover
Naked Lunch
A Touch of Evil
Pigs and Battleships
Sansho the Bailiff
Grave of the Fireflies
I don't mean the horrible shock films, I mean more like good story driven movies that are dark.
Like depressing or around that.
Quote from: Frito Master on Thu 05/07/2012 22:48:44
Not to derail the thread (You can pm me.) But does anyone have any recommendations for some movies that are dark?
I just adjusted my list to take out Grave of Fireflies, and I second all of Ali's other recommendations. Here are some others:
Come and See (http://www.youtube.com/embed/xWL-qyS_UOM)
Happiness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdwJLntUztQ)
Bad Lieutenant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFvGeMDW7bw)
Quote from: Frito Master on Thu 05/07/2012 23:34:48
I don't mean the horrible shock films, I mean more like good story driven movies that are dark.
Like depressing or around that.
I can recomend both films,martyr is quite shocking but has got quite a story to tell.
Hierro is very dark and depressing.
You should see the orphanage if you havent seen it yet.
Thanks guys.
Edit: I watched the scene from Happiness... That was very awkward.
Quote from: Frito Master on Thu 05/07/2012 22:48:44
Come and See (http://www.youtube.com/embed/xWL-qyS_UOM)
Happiness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdwJLntUztQ)
Its funny, I love "Come and See" as much as I disliked "Happiness" (yes I know its critically acclaimed and the director has an impressive overall body of work). The former is one of the best war movies I've ever seen. Everything about "Come and See" was ahead of it's time, especially the use of sound.
Oh, and not to derail the thread further, but definitely, definitely, definitely:
M
I don't really think you can cross any lines thematically that haven't been crossed already. I've seen stuff like slaughtered vomit dolls, underground stuff, so-called snuff, it's all there and the intention isn't really to teach you anything about the human condition, it's just there to gross you out or be appalling.
I think the important thing to take away from this discussion is that a good narrative is meant to pass on a message, whether it's a moral one, an ethical one, a cautionary tale or whatever. If you're going to be gruesome, do it with the intention of teaching the viewer/player something or imparting a message you think is important.
Gore and gross/violent or sexual acts by themselves confer nothing on their own. Black and white horror and noir movies of the 30's and 40's got is 100% right when they often kept the violence hinted at or off screen rather than throwing it in your lap, because what most people fear is the unknown and will sit there long after a movie is over wondering just what happened offscreen and will often imagine things much worse than you could come up with.
Good post ProgZ.
Informative and good call about the old school movies like that.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Fri 06/07/2012 23:05:49
I think the important thing to take away from this discussion is that a good narrative is meant to pass on a message, whether it's a moral one, an ethical one, a cautionary tale or whatever.
Interestingly, some of the more haunting of the films I suggested don't really pass on a message. M is a good example. It ends with a moral of sorts, but the morality of the film is so intangible that it isn't really satisfactory. You can interpret it as an attack on Nazism, but it could just as easily be a justification of the persecution of Jews. I think that moral uncertainty is one of the things which make the film so unsettling.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Fri 06/07/2012 23:05:49the intention isn't really to teach you anything about the human condition
I highlight this part of what ProgZmax said, because I think it's a better description of what he's getting at than "message," which might be too easily equated with "moral." I think "M" is a good example, a fine piece of cinematic art (The Lang version, at least. I'm not as big a fan of the Losey remake.). It's not moralistic in tone, but it reveals loads upon loads of human character. Just the "court" scene at the end is a masterful look at the nature of "evil," our interpretation of justice, our ability to compartmentalize our sins, etc. etc.
It's interesting too -- one of the things that Lorre calls out to the lynch mob is that they've all committed their crimes with intent, whereas he can't control himself. To me, that's where the question of "too far" is answered: boundaries must be pushed and broken with intent, purpose, deliberation. This doesn't mean simply to be aware of doing it, but to have reason for doing it.
Gore for gore's sake alone is often juvenile (though I do think there are some societal functions that it performs). But the violence in something like Michael Haneke's "Funny Games" has a purpose, and whether or not you agree with the purpose, or approve of the execution, it's worth interrogating that purpose. I also think we should be able to discard the point-of-view of the author, ala Barthes, and consider the text on its own terms. Thus both the pushed boundary and the reason for pushing it should be found within the text itself; i.e. I shouldn't have to go read an interview to find out what it all means.
Oh man. Incidentally I watched Human Centipede 2 today and it was insanely terrible. Very graphic. The short fat protagonist guy with the beady eyes is very creepy indeed.
I was so pissed that not one of the people tied down with duct taped didn't move throughout the day while he was at work. It was only their wrist and ankles. They could've wiggled their way to someone next to them to even, and if only just to attempt, to help remove the tape off the other. Blah. I got upset.
Told ya it was gross.
I feel crazy though cause I watched it with my buddy and we laughed at some of the stuff.
HC:2 was less about a creepy story and more about shock value, hence the MASSIVE plotholes that the first one didn't have. The first one was actually interesting and pretty entertaining. The sequel was Tom Six's idea of telling the world "you watched one of my movies, so this is the meta effect it has on you and you're terrible for watching the second, or critiquing it, or really even talking about it...."
He's got a third one planned for this year, and his movies have been banned in like 20 countries now. I hated HC:2, but honestly I'd love to see him make one so ridiculous and nonsensical, but grotesquely violent, that it gets banned in the US, which is all but impossible compared to other countries.
That's part of the problem with "South Park" in my opinion. It's like the writers are just trying to be provocative rather then actually being funny.
Quote from: mkennedy on Fri 13/07/2012 22:44:20
That's part of the problem with "South Park" in my opinion. It's like the writers are just trying to be provocative rather then actually being funny.
The problem with South Park (as it is now) is that it's still 100% controlled and run by Matt and Trey, which is fine, that's awesome, but they're both REALLY, REALLY busy with other projects, and they shoot an episode in a little less than a week, but only do 14-20 eps a year, so it's rushed.
When they took their time back 7 years ago, it was priceless.
I don't think either violence or sex goes too far, (as long as it's not the kind of shit in A Serbian Film) because it's all real-life stuff. There have been cases where people have been killed with chainsaws and their gooey parts go all over the place, people willingly and non willingly have sex with each other all the time. This stuff just happens. People get killed in horrendously violent ways and certain people enjoy having jumper cables attached to their nipples, all outside of video games and movies. Sometimes it's worse in real life. I still have yet to see a film or play a video game where someone is killed in the matter that Vlad The Impaler punished his victims. He took a large square wooden pull and used people's body weight to make them slide down it as it penetrated their sphincter to the point of it literally going out of their mouths, and all this while they were still alive.
Basically, movies and video games don't desensitize us to violence in the real world. For me, violence in the real world desensitized me to violence in video games.
Quote from: PvtRichardCranium on Sat 14/07/2012 18:39:34
I still have yet to see a film or play a video game where someone is killed in the matter that Vlad The Impaler punished his victims...
Basically, movies and video games don't desensitize us to violence in the real world. For me, violence in the real world desensitized me to violence in video games.
Which part of 15th Century Romania are you from?
Quote from: Ali on Sun 15/07/2012 01:01:14
Which part of 15th Century Romania are you from?
I used to live in pretty harsh gang territory, so I've seen quite a bit of violence. That, and my mom watches crime shows all the time.
Ole Vladdi' boy did some crazy stuff.
I can't imagine what it would have been like to see that in stuff in person.
(http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/action_games/doom/hell_impaled_bodies.jpg)
Doom had some shocking moments for its day.
I always loved there sprites.
I finished watching "The Skin I Live In" the other day - the aftermath of the film left me with a creeped-out feeling, but they kept the grotesque things offscreen.
The Skin I Live In was excellent! I'd definitely add that to my list of grotesque but not gratuitous films.