A rather straight-forward thread. I'm just curious as of how much money you make, what you do, how much you work and what kind of area you live in.
I'm a teacher myself, which is pretty much the worst paid job in Sweden if you look at years of education. I've done 4.5 years in university and my (and most other new teacher's) entrance salary weighed in at 20.000 SEK per month, roughly 2000 euros or 3000 dollars. I pay about 30% in taxes. My current rent is about 3000/300/450.
I think that's quite horrible myself, considering that people around me who've studied economics or engineering are paid at least 50% more in average.
(The good thing is that teachers typically don't teach all their hours, but can take some time off for preparations and correcting tests and whatnot (the bad thing is that all the extra-work exceeds that time in the beginning, when you haven't got the experience and routine)).
A standard salary for a specified teacher in upper secondary schools is at around 3000 euros per month, so I see your point. However a class teacher on ground school gets at around 2100 entrance salary. I don't know about uni teachers though, I haven't done that yet. I get random substitute jobs at local schools though.
what I kind of study for is IT in the tech uni. Basically at average 98% of the people from here when they finish uni have a job and get appr. 3100 a month, which is actually very good. However I'm about to change to something that doesn't give me a job and makes my life harder; international politics and german filology. A student here gets student money, which is nowadays dependant on the studies they do so basically enough points/month, and you're allowed some support, that basically includes 80% of normal rent and a bit less than 300 euros a month for living. Along that, you are allowed to make up to 550e/month for 12 months before they stop paying the student money. I myself used to get that and student loan, but nowadays the army pretty much screwed up all my plans that I had made for the next 3 years, so basically I'm just surviving, hopefully soon on life support until February when I start civil service.
I don't think you can call it earning money, but nevertheless. If I should work, I'd pretty much have to stop studying and leave the service, whch is impossible, so now I do random jobs at 8e/hour, which is as good as nothing.
Quote from: Tuomas on Mon 01/10/2007 19:31:34
what I kind of study for is IT in the tech uni. Basically at average 98% of the people from here when they finish uni have a job and get appr. 3100 a month, which is actually very good.
I don't know what kind of university degree you are talking about, but I must be in wrong kind of university then :)
I'm doing bachelor of engineering degree (media engineering, in EVTEK - university of applied sciences) and what our union tells is that average of 3100e/month is after 5 years of experience. (source: Salary study made by the union of professional engineers in finland (http://www.iol.fi/modules/system/stdreq.aspx?P=648&VID=default&SID=532625617462576&S=0&C=22983))
What we should (or could) be getting when graduated is as below.
Now I get 1875 euros/month (that's 12,5e/h) and I graduate in this month. After graduation I could be looking at something like 2300-2500e/month as that's the recommendation of the union. And that's only if I get a new job.
Of course there are there issues involved that I'm stupid for staying in such a low salary job and some people could have the 5 years of experience when they graduate. But that just struck me as quite high salary for freshly graduated :)
edit:
I forgot to answer the question in the opening post :)
I make web pages, proprietary software, graphic design, product brochures and catalogs.
I work 37,5 hours/week and live in southern Finland.
I also forgot to mention that the salary I stated above is the income I get from the day job. I also have my own small business making web pages and stuff and that yields couple of thousand per year (depending on the year and my lazy ass. Last year was about 4000).
If I'm not mistaken I pay something over 20% in taxes.
Yes, sorry. That would be a diploma engineer in IT, though agreed, in most cases the graduates have been working for at least a year, since it was said that the clever thing to do is to get the diploma from the place you want to work in in the future.
Public sector roles like teachers and nurses have always traditionally been paid less than private sector jobs, because governments are always trying to keep spending down whereas companies can tend to spend more to recruit the best staff.
In a profession like teaching salaries can get away with being relatively low because you can't easily just quit and get a job at another company, since more-or-less the whole industry is state-run. But I guess you could always find work at a private school if you wanted to up your income.
I think the average graduate starting salary in the UK is about £21k/year which is about 2500 euros per month. But of course how much money you need depends a lot on where you live, how much your rent is and what your living costs are.
And at the end of the day, no matter how much you earn there are always some people earning less and some people earning more than you. And thus the inexorable cycle of life spins on.
Yeah, and we need to remember, that the average salary doesn't really tell you anything, since those who happen to be lucky enough to get say, 71k per year bring the average way up. I usually ignore the average which is Finland is said to be 2500e/month, and consider the relative salary, which basically shows the truth, and yes, it does differ quite a lot depending on the position or the place your working at. The truth is, no-one gets 2500, people get over or under.
I get a highly friednly fee of £20 per hour from a piano student I have.
but with 3 years inside a PhD in composition, I could very well charge £30 or more... :-\
Other than that freelancing is not paying much atm. And I am still technically a student (NO LOANS YAY!) so I have an extra year and then it's full-time job for me too ;) And actually I am SO busy with my PhD, so I would never even dream of getting a full time job.
I'm a student working in pre-fabricated lumber construction. We build roof trusses. I make 5.3 Euros an hour, or 7.5 USD. When I worked full time I brought less than $1000 USD a month, now that I'm part time it's more like $650. Barely scraping by, more or less.
For a manual labor job it has really bad pay, should be getting about 30-50% more in my part of the US, but I don't know of anyone else around that will work around school scheduling and I don't want to work in fast food for the same money.
Our teachers make only about twice as much as me btw, but this varies by state and my state is one of the worst offenders. Most of the people I know who are becoming teachers are leaving this state for others simply because of pay. The claim is that our teachers are the most dedicated because they're willing to suffer this bad pay for their passion of teaching, but my high school education begs to differ.
I earn about $590/419 euros a month... my work is about killing time with WinKawaks emulator and entering data/printing bills whenever order has been filled. Basically, waiting for bunch of people to finish their job and then enter their results.
But since it's part-time (about 15 hours of work in a week, of which also most time goes to playing Samurai Showdown IV and Spider Solitaire ;D), I think I'm supposed to be quite happy with this. At hardcore fruit selling seasons, like Christmas, this 15 hours becomes something like 60 hours a week anyway.
In Estonia, many people earn this much or less for a full month of 40hrs weeks. Including most of my teachers at school, unless they work in two places at same time. Which many of them do.
Here, lowest part of the "food chain" are teachers, doctors, policemen and firemen. For example, garbage truck or bus drivers earn double that they do. Weird.
Andail, your starting salary sounds to me pretty much what teachers' staring salaries have always been. I have heard the same lament from other teachers over the years. When I worked at GE my boss's wife was a teacher. I was invited to their house for dinner one evening and during the conversation this topic came up. My boss's wife complained about teachers' salaries being low. My boss replied to here that they have always been so but that there are still just as many people who want to get into it.
I really don't want to give you a hard time or make you feel worse than you already are but I am sincerely curious and would like to ask an honest question. When you first started studying to become a teacher did you not know how much salary a teacher typically earns or did you know and think it would be enough to support your desired lifestyle?
Quote from: InCreator on Tue 02/10/2007 03:27:39
Here, lowest part of the "food chain" are teachers, doctors, policemen and firemen. For example, garbage truck or bus drivers earn double that they do. Weird.
I'd say the same thing about here. ...Except for doctors; doctors here, in my opinion, are overpaid and underworked.
As for me, I work as a laborer in a hardwood flooring factory, I bring home $1300 a month. My job is to run wood through a frame saw all day to make veneer.
Salary itself does not have any significant value when compared between different countries. Life standards are different in each country, you know, so are the average prices. 2000 EURs would be very enough in my country, especially for a teacher
and straight into topic, I don't have any salary, I don't have enough time to work, so I just live off on my parents and on government funds.
Quote from: RickJ on Tue 02/10/2007 07:26:09
I really don't want to give you a hard time or make you feel worse than you already are but I am sincerely curious and would like to ask an honest question. When you first started studying to become a teacher did you not know how much salary a teacher typically earns or did you know and think it would be enough to support your desired lifestyle?
I'm not dumb, I knew exactly what I was getting myself into, and could have chosen a much different route if I wanted to simply become loaded. I had the grades to enter lawschool or become a dentist, and I believe I have the brains necessary for economics.
Trust me, I'm not that kind of person who whines about his poor lot and yearns for riches. With this thread I just wanted to address an issue; why a certain profession (highly academic and with a key function in society) is considered so little worth. I don't know what good the argument "it has always been like this" does, or what your boss's comment was meant to achieve.
People would still be doctors even if they're wages were cut in half. People would still practice law and economy even if lawyers and economists were paid the same as teachers.
In the end it just comes down to a simple case of supply and demand. An employer will always try to pay the minimum amount that they can for your services. If there are more people that want jobs in a sector than there are jobs available, then employers tend to control the market; if there are more job vacancies than people qualified to do them, then people can demand higher wages.
For example, about 10 years ago in the UK we were having a big problem with teachers quitting the profession and going into other types of work because they were fed up with their pay being low ... as a result, the problem got to a point where the government had to increase the starting salary from £15k/year to £20k/year to attract people back to teaching.
"Unskilled" jobs that in theory anybody could do will tend to be paid minimum wage, and jobs that require specific skills/experience will have to pay more money in order to attract the people have those skills.
All comes down to basic capitalism, I guess you could say.
I've always really admired teachers.
When I was a kid it was 'cause my mother was (still is) a teacher. When I was old enough to realize how (rediculously) little they get paid for their job my admiration increased even more.
Teachers fight such an up-hill battle everday and it seems it's just getting worse! I, personally, think it's unacceptable how little they are paid. And yet ... they still do it. Trying to make an impact on young minds ... it's really admirable.
In the field I work in salaries are really variable. I make a lot more living in South Florida working in my field than I ever would have had I stayed in Michigan. The trade-off is that the cost of living down here is much higher. I still earn enough to live very comfortably and manage to keep my savings account growing every month (while simulatneously paying into a 401k).
I also have a lot of supplemental income which I do through my own company (outside of my "day job"). I've never put it all together and figured out what my annual take is ... I could guess, but for some reaon I feel uncomfortable putting a number down...
Most people don't believe me when I say this but ... I'd rather love my job and be forced to live in a card-board box (because the job's pay sucked) than make a lot of money doing something I hated. I just happen to be very fortunate that the work I love doing pays so well. At the risk of sounding pompous ... I feel very blessed to have achieved what I have. Granted, I worked my ass off to get here.
Ooh this almost makes me want to rethink my future career choice...
Really? If I could have my true dream job, but the pay was slightly lower than I am on now, in my realistically attainable ideal job, I'd go for it.
Well I was only half joking, but people are making the life of a teacher sound so miserable and unfufilling (which I know isn't true). I also have to keep in mind that it might be a little different here in Canada, pay and appreciation-wise... I keep having to remind myself that the subjects I'm going to learn how to teach are/will be in high demand. ;D
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 02/10/2007 22:39:35Most people don't believe me when I say this but ... I'd rather love my job and be forced to live in a card-board box (because the job's pay sucked) than make a lot of money doing something I hated. I just happen to be very fortunate that the work I love doing pays so well. At the risk of sounding pompous ... I feel very blessed to have achieved what I have. Granted, I worked my ass off to get here.
Exactly the same for me. Almost all of the things I do for money right now I wouldn't mind doing for free. Money in general has meant very little to me throughout my life, and I'm fortunate to live in a country and surrounding where everything has come pretty easy to me (not through connections, but rather through a mix of a great societal system and pure luck). And like Darth said, that doesn't mean I haven't worked my ass off to get what I wanted, I've just encountered very few (zero?) setbacks.
I'm still a student (getting my BEng this year) and I use very little money in all, so I'll always be okay even if I would have to rely solely on my student money. Crystal, bling and fancy cars, jewellery and mars bars mean very little to me. Why the hell would I want a Porsche when I have a pencil and a brush? Alas, my future goals lie more in the domain of art, family and being a surfer/snowboarder bum, than anything material. In every instance, buffing up my portfolio means more to me than making money. And that's not to say I'm not making good money doing what I'm doing :D.
I hope that didn't sound too pompous either :|.
I'm also a teacher, and love it. If and when I move back to the US, I will likely continue teaching. Being an employee of the Japanese government, my salary is a matter of public record, so I don't mind discussing it. My contract stipulates 300,000 yen per month AFTER taxes. So, no matter how much Japanese tax I have to pay, I always get 300,000 yen per month. (which thanks to the horrendously weak yen, is only about $2,600 USD, it was a lot more three years ago when I was not married and regularly sending money home.) Since tax doesn't come out of my salary, I'm not sure exactly how much I'd be getting if taxes were included.
It's not a lot, but it's been enough to carve out a very satisfying living for my family and I and we even save about 1/3 of it each month that we put in a savings account to use for going on vacations, or buying some extra things that we need or want.
I agree that teachers are not paid enough for how important they are to society or how hard they work.
I'm a professional patty flipper (a McDonald's Worker), and I make about 7 bucks an hour. On average, I work about 20 to 30 hours a week, and I get paid every two weeks.
So, if we take 25 hours, double it, then multiply by 7, I get...
About 350 every two weeks. But, it's a crap job. And also, they take about 40 bucks out of my paycheck for income tax, and stupid stuff like that.
Same as Darth, My mum is a teacher and my younger sister is a Special Ed teacher (teaching kids with disabilities) So I've always respected teachers (except on a few occasions when I was a rebellious teenager)
My mum worked hard over the years, also got her masters degree and loves it, She's a Principal these days at a Primary School and the pay is significantly higher as a principal. She's still enthusiastic and motivated and works way outside the hours (probably 2 or 3 nights a week home after 11pm [meetings and other principals events {probably including free food and alcohol}], she's hardly ever home when I try to call) I don't know how she does it.
So if you're passionate about teaching, and take on other roles instead of just teaching your classes and heading home, eventually you'll gain experience and work your way up the ladder, maybe even end up working for the department of education (or whatever your countries equivalent is). So as with most jobs, there is chance for higher earnings if you achieve
It depends what you want to get out of it, If you like getting paid for more holidays than most jobs, enjoy helping others, and have enough money to pay all expenses, who cares what you get paid.
I earn less than a teacher, Work as a Meter Reader, reading electricity meters (used to read water meters but my company just lost the contract with the water company, luckily they have other contracts and moved me onto another contract instead of just letting me go), walking 15-20km per day. I enjoy walking round, and keeps me fit. I've been doing it for over 3.5 years, If I stopped this job, I'd probably put on weight really fast.
About $60 a day as a webmaster.
The highest paid job I was on was £12k as a web developer kinda person but that only lasted 2 months. I've never seen more than £1k in my bank at any one time :p At the moment I'm generally living on about £60-80 a week working as a barman. When I get film jobs then pay is greater, but only short-term. The job I've done recently has paid me about the same as my £12k job would've done, but of course it only lasts a couple of months. I really don't earn that much but I'm okay with that. I live for the now and do what makes me happy...I find it way too hard to save, so im just counting on getting rich someday :p I've generally been trying since I was about 4 to find ways to make money myself. But they've never really gotten off the ground.....yet!1
Teacher jobs seem quite well paid and there's been adverts here recently saying you start on nothing less than 20k or something. Supply teaching is also well paid. I once wanted to be a teacher but sadly there's just no discipline in kids esp in mixed sex secondary schools these days in the UK and I know under many circumstances I'd just want to hit some of them. So probably not wise to become one :p Though, when I was at school, there were some incredibly cool teachers. But they were generally the ones teaching non-academic subjects ;)
Quote from: Alliance on Wed 03/10/2007 04:50:41
I'm a professional patty flipper (a McDonald's Worker), and I make about 7 bucks an hour. On average, I work about 20 to 30 hours a week, and I get paid every two weeks.
So, if we take 25 hours, double it, then multiply by 7, I get...
About 350 every two weeks. But, it's a crap job. And also, they take about 40 bucks out of my paycheck for income tax, and stupid stuff like that.
Income tax you say?
Do you actually know there is absolutely no law about it, that basically it doesn't exist and is a fraud? If you stop paying it, nothing happens, go and see. And its even more pathetic if they pay it automatically from your paycheck..
Quote from: radiowaves on Wed 03/10/2007 19:44:51
Income tax you say?
Do you actually know there is absolutely no law about it, that basically it doesn't exist and is a fraud? If you stop paying it, nothing happens, go and see. And its even more pathetic if they pay it automatically from your paycheck..
The Estonian system may well be
slightly different... The employer will be prosecuted if they don't do PAYE (automatic tax) here, and for those who work as contractors and are paid gross, I know plenty and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs certainly DO chase them up for their income tax.
btw 35k plus bonuses :)
minus tax, national insurance, pension, share scheme, mortgage, kids, food etc leaves me with about -£200 per month... :(
Quote from: SSH on Wed 03/10/2007 20:06:52
Quote from: radiowaves on Wed 03/10/2007 19:44:51
Income tax you say?
Do you actually know there is absolutely no law about it, that basically it doesn't exist and is a fraud? If you stop paying it, nothing happens, go and see. And its even more pathetic if they pay it automatically from your paycheck..
The Estonian system may well be slightly different... The employer will be prosecuted if they don't do PAYE (automatic tax) here, and for those who work as contractors and are paid gross, I know plenty and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs certainly DO chase them up for their income tax.
btw 35k plus bonuses :)
minus tax, national insurance, pension, share scheme, mortgage, kids, food etc leaves me with about -£200 per month... :(
I am not talking about Estonian system! OIn that particular post I was talkind percicely about income tax in USA, which is a fraud.
Quote from: radiowaves on Wed 03/10/2007 20:48:46
I was talkind percicely about income tax in USA, which is a fraud.
Tell that to Al Capone...
Quote from: radiowaves on Wed 03/10/2007 20:48:46
In that particular post I was talkind percicely about income tax in USA, which is a fraud.
I quite agree. I'd much rather employ my own security guard, fireman and doctor than contribute to a shared system through taxes.
Quote from: Pumaman on Wed 03/10/2007 21:55:24
I quite agree. I'd much rather employ my own security guard, fireman and doctor than contribute to a shared system through taxes.
Yeah, at least they would get their job done properly.
But that wouldn't be reasonable because in current system, one doctor, policeman or fireman serves hundreds of people. Also, you probably cannot afford them anyway. Of course, in current system, they fail more often. But your private crew would spend most of their time slacking off, unless you light a fire, catch a disease and get attacked at daily basis ;)
Or... do you? :o
Income tax isn't a fraud, it's a nice reminder for us workers that there are people who don't want to work and prefer to take trips, drive jeeps, throw dirt at each other and argue about nonsense instead of working. If there's perfect society, it's for politicians. Also, they need money to maintain security, such as police or military to keep you from rebelling against them. That's why I hate democracy. My perfect society would be if people could HANG any leaders or representatives they don't like, without court, simply by majority vote. A great motivator, isn't it? But that's not likely to happen, so enough offtopic...
Quote from: Pumaman on Wed 03/10/2007 21:55:24
Quote from: radiowaves on Wed 03/10/2007 20:48:46
In that particular post I was talkind percicely about income tax in USA, which is a fraud.
I quite agree. I'd much rather employ my own security guard, fireman and doctor than contribute to a shared system through taxes.
We do employ our own doctors, half our taxes go to "defense," which
is a fraud and massive waste. Not just because of superfluous wars but because of overspending, no-bid contracts to cronies, etc. We can just help each other out and have socialized medicine, instead the president vetoes a bill that would give lower class children medical insurance because, "Some of the parents can afford to pay for a medical insurance plan."
You should watch "Sicko," Micheal Moore's latest.
QuoteI was talkind percicely about income tax in USA, which is a fraud.
This is only half-true. To become eligible for not paying taxes, in the US, you have to separate yourself from social security, credit cards, and you can't check mark that you're a U.S. citizen. There's a bunch of legal jargon to go with it, but it's not really worth it. Many of the freedoms offered by the constitution are signed away unknowingly. The fact that tax is taken out of my paycheck has never really stuck me as a bad thing. I enjoy driving on clean roads, I enjoyed a state run education. There's far too many things that go into taxes that I do agree with. Not to mention, I'm a State employee, so I'm kind of paid through peoples taxes.
QuoteTrust me, I'm not that kind of person who whines about his poor lot and yearns for riches. With this thread I just wanted to address an issue; why a certain profession (highly academic and with a key function in society) is considered so little worth. I don't know what good the argument "it has always been like this" does, or what your boss's comment was meant to achieve.
I don't know that I'd agree that teaching is considered less worth because of its salary. I think most of the problem stems from working in a state run, or government run job, where there's far too much people they have to worry about getting an education, that they're more willing to take people who really aren't qualified to teach. It's not a competitive market, so they give out a base pay for everyone. I'm sure there are many private schools that work much more like a corporation. Where its goal it to get the best it can, and pay them a better wage (Not necessarily). Of course, the state benefits are generally fairly nice.
The problems that can arise, sometimes, is that a teachers salary may not be affected by cost of living in the local area, whereas, in some locations a teachers salary can comfortably be lived with.
I get paid $25 an hour of work, 40 hours a week. But I don't have benefits, and I only get paid for hours I work, even if there is a holiday. I can work on holidays, weekends, or whenever I feel like it though. So a holiday doesn't have too much affect on me. I'm a computer programmer, mostly working on web development, and web applications for the state. I do plan on supplementing my income by doing some web development for the local area or whomever asks. The area I live in now, allows for me to live comfortably with my income. But I have roommates, which help with rent, and I don't have a family I have to support.
The most important thing, though, is I completely love what I am doing, and I enjoy the people I'm working with. I feel like I'm valued as a person rather than a cog in the machine. And I prefer this job to the five years prior as a bagger/cashier.
-MillsJROSS
The person who lives above me is a private school teacher, and i make more money than he does.
I make about $34,000 a year USD.
At least the guy who lives above me gets a nice 3 month vacation during the summer time.
My dad was a teacher for about 30 plus years at a public school and was making well over $50,000 USD a year.
I am a salaried employee and i get benefits including health insurance and little extra's here and there.
I am not making great money, but it is enough for a single person like myself to live decently.
One of my teachers had a Masters degree and made $23k a year.. and it definitely wasn't because he was a bad teacher, he made more than any of the other teachers.
Just saying, because teacher pay strongly varies by state in the US.
Although there is technically no law in the tax code which states you must pay federal income tax, it's a wise idea to pay it anyways. Many people have spent time in prison for not paying this tax. Unless you know what you're doing (like that lawyer who won the court case regarding not paying his federal income taxes), I would highly recommend against ignoring the tax.
Re: heated debate- I don't have particularly strong feelings about tax one way or another. Living in the USA, I do find myself regretting that my taxes contribute to funding our armed forces. But I have no compunctions about paying for wellfare, public schools, civil services, etc.
In general I'm not very interested accruing vast sums of wealth. As long as I'm healthy and able to do the things that matter to me, money is a non-issue.
I work as an assistant to disabled people. I make 15 UDS per hour (10.6 EURO), and work around 10 hours per day. I'm not working this semester, as I am back is school (yay). My parents are kindly covering my expenses so I can focus on schoolwork, though I do some freelance art on the side.
As a side note, the cost of living frugally here is about 450 USD (318 EURO) for rent, another 50 USD (35 EURO) for utilities, and 150 USD (106 EURO) for food.
Quote
I'm not dumb, I knew exactly what I was getting myself into, and could have chosen a much different route if I wanted to simply become loaded. I had the grades to enter lawschool or become a dentist, and I believe I have the brains necessary for economics.
Trust me, I'm not that kind of person who whines about his poor lot and yearns for riches. With this thread I just wanted to address an issue; why a certain profession (highly academic and with a key function in society) is considered so little worth. I don't know what good the argument "it has always been like this" does, or what your boss's comment was meant to achieve.
As some of the others explained, my boss's comment was meant to illustrate that teacher salaries are obviously not too low because there has never been a lack of people willing to do the work for the amount of money offered (except in rare cases such as the one CJ mentioned). Perhaps a better question is to ask why you are willing to work for so little. Why would you expect someone would want to (or be compelled to) pay more than the asking price?
Quote
People would still be doctors even if they're wages were cut in half. People would still practice law and economy even if lawyers and economists were paid the same as teachers.
Yes but I would wager not as many people would still want to become doctors or lawyers as did before the wages were decreased.
I did a quick google to compare starting engineering salries with starting salaries. I found a recent Wall Street Journal article discussing engineering salaries and I found the published starting salaries for the Chicago Public School System. The Wall Street Jourrnal article is about a year or so older than the CPS salary schedule survey but I don't think things could have changed drastically in that short of time frame.
http://www.collegejournal.com/salarydata/engineering/engineering.html (http://www.collegejournal.com/salarydata/engineering/engineering.html)
Quote
Another survey, this one from 2005 by Engineering Workforce Commission (EWC) of the American Engineering Association of Engineering Societies Inc. in Washington, D.C., reports that engineers with bachelor's degrees and less than a year of experience earn a median annual salary of $49,957. Electrical and civil engineers with bachelor's degrees and less than a year of experience earn a median annual salary, respectively, of $50,000 and $39,500. Mechanical engineers with bachelor's degrees and less than a year of experience earn $42,131 in median annual salary, EWC reports.
http://www.cps-humanresources.org/Careers/salary.htm (http://www.cps-humanresources.org/Careers/salary.htm)
Quote
Starting Salary (Bachelor's Degree)
School Year -- 40 Weeks/193 days
$43,233
Starting Salary (Master's Degree)
School Year -- 40 Weeks/193 days
$46,228
According to this quick and dirty reasearch there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference. If it's the difference in the amount of time worked is taken into account (typically beginning engineers in the US work 50 weeks rather than 40) then the starting teacher salary of $43000 is equivalent to about (50/40 * $43000) or $54000. And phleasee don't start talking about grading papers etc, etc. after hours. I can count the number of 8 hr days I've worked (in my 20- years as an engineer) on my finger and toes. Admittedly this is an oversimplified analysis based on a couple random google results but I don't believe it's that far off the mark. I don't have anything against teachers but I don't think their lot is as bad off as they often claim.
Quote from: RickJ link=topic=32551.msg421154#msg421154As some of the others explained, my boss's comment was meant to illustrate that teacher salaries are obviously not too low because there has never been a lack of people willing to do the work for the amount of money offered
That's a rather cynical and arrogant statement. You can not measure how much people are worth simply by how prone they are to go on strike. There can be various reasons for why you'd want to give people the money they deserve.
At least in Sweden, the declining quality of the (at least on elementory level) schools has been a hot topic for well over a decade. Kids don't learn to read or write, nor do maths, properly.
Raising standards in schools should be a priority to everyone, and one way is to stop cutting their budgets. People are less inclined to do a good job if they feel they're overlooked or too badly paid.
I don't think teachers are worst off, far from it, women (or the few men in that sector) caring for the elderly, sick or young have been consistently under-paid forever (and consequently, you'll often hear about how bad state the health care's in, etc). It's all connected, and it has to do with which kind of society you want to live in.
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I don't think teachers are worst off, far from it, women (or the few men in that sector) caring for the elderly, sick or young have been consistently under-paid forever (and consequently, you'll often hear about how bad state the health care's in, etc). It's all connected, and it has to do with which kind of society you want to live in.
I'll agree with that. My mum has worked for several years as a social worker/carer in respite homes and schools for children with severe physical and mental disabilities, from the ages of three to adulthood, and it is one of the most underpaid and underappreciated jobs.
I'm unemployed.. woohoo.
I just got back from Japan a week ago and upon arrival in England I checked my bank account and had £10.20... plus about £100 worth of spare yen, which I swiftly changed up and spent at the weekend as it was my old man's Stag night (him and mum are finally tying the noose... err, I mean knot!).
So currently I'm earning absolutely ziltch. Jobhunting is on hold as I've decided to look into joing an access to higher education course so that I can increase my chance of going to uni next year... which I shouldve done 6 years ago when all my frineds were doing it.. what a dick... oh well.
Like some of the others who have contributed to the thread, I was a teacher until very recently as well. I think I was very much in the same boat as Vince Twelve is now, as he lives and teaches in the same country as I do, though mine was a private sector language school, which very recently has gone down 'the tubes' as it were. Due in no part to the fact that Nova (My previous company) was falling apart faster than Xebes at the end of Metroid, I changed my job and began working a month and a week ago as an IT Executive search and recruitment consultant (Or head-hunter, if you like).
Basically, I turned to head hunting because I'm planning my future, and as much as I loved teaching, in order to bring back to Japan and support my girlfriend, who lives full-time in Korea, there is a fair bit of money necessary in that transaction. The Base salary at my company is 280,000 yen a month - modest, and generally paying better already than a teaching job - but the commissions are where the big money comes from. For every candidate I place into a client company, my company receives 30% of their first year's projected on-target earnings, as a signing bonus. I pick up 30% of that. Coupled with milestone bonuses, I'm looking at anywhere between 6.2 and 9.6 million yen a year.
The flipside of this, of course, is that head-hunting is soul-destroyingly hard work. If anyone's taken a moment to think "Where's SPC disappeared to?", it's the trenches of head hunting that did me in. I work on average 11-hour days, filled with cold-calling, sourcing, candidate meetings and resume-writing. It's one of the most aggressive and cut-throat sales markets out there, and I've never worked so hard in my life.
The point of it all is, in order to make that money, I have to work damned hard. Teaching isn't hard work, as far as I can remember, and I did it for 6 years. In my experience, and humble opinion, money is directly proportionate to how hard you have to work to reach your targets, or how rare your skills are. My position has also given me some very deep insight into the supply and demand, as it were, of IT professionals. The perceived worth of engineers, versus salesmen, versus marketers or administration - the skills that make someone worth a lot of money.
Put quite simply, people don't prefer to give a lot of money to teachers, because they have a more general skillset. That's why a university student can teach math to a high school student. Of course the professional will make more money because they understand teaching theory and have a license to do business, which the freelancer doesn't. Likewise a University professor makes much more than a high school teacher because they are much more specialized, and have a rarer skillset. A university physics professor is to a semiconductor engineer as a high school teacher is to a marketing communications professional.
Hope that made some sense.
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That's a rather cynical and arrogant statement.
My statement in neither cynical or arrogant, it's just a simple fact of life. If you offer to sell your car for $50 you can bet the farm that nobody will come along and give you $5000 for it; just ain't going to happen. I've been in my own consulting business for nearly 20 years and I have yet to have a client who offered to pay me more than what I asked for. Don't get me wrong, it would be great if I got paid what I think I'm worth but it just ain't going to happen.
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You can not measure how much people are worth simply by how prone they are to go on strike.
You pretty much put a value on your own work when you were studying to be a teacher and knew what salary would be offered and were willing to continue studying and eventually accept a position at that salary. Obviously if you didn't find that salary acceptable you would not have accepted it. Clearly at some point you must have believed that was a fair price for the work you would be doing.
I just can't help but be curious about what has changed for you between now and then?
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There can be various reasons for why you'd want to give people the money they deserve.
This discussion isn't about the poor, sick, infirm, injured, or other unfortunate individuals in need who deserve our our compassion and/or help by virtue of our shared humanity. I can't think of any other reasons why I would or should give money away to anyone other than my family.
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Raising standards in schools should be a priority to everyone, and one way is to stop cutting their budgets. People are less inclined to do a good job if they feel they're overlooked or too badly paid.
Are you saying that if everyone gets paid more money whether they do a better job or not, that some how the quality of their work will improve? Come on, you can't really believe that? In the real world people are held accountable for the quality of their work. If Andail consistently does a better job than Rick the he gets better raise in pay than Rick. The boss doesn't come around and say to Rick, "You know you have been performing rather poorly for quite some time now. If you don't get your ass in gear pretty soon and do a better job I'm gonna... I'm gonna have to... to raise your salary, you lazy fool.". := Were I a betting man, I'd wager that your union and your school district are not in favor of policies such as merit pay, school choice, private school vouchers, standardized testing, or any other mechanism that would hold the schools and teachers accountable for the quality of their work.
Andail my friend, I wish you well and hope you find your path to the happiness, fulfilment, satisfaction with with work, life, etc that everyone deserves to have. I've found that everytime things get going really well for me and I get a little over confident and a little too pleased with myself, life has a way of coming around and slaping me down and putting me back in my proper place. When you get to that happy place just remember to maintain a smidgin of humility so as to not run afoul of cosmic justice.
The pound is still a used currency ?? lol :p
Quote from: SpacePirateCaine on Fri 05/10/2007 14:34:15
Teaching isn't hard work, as far as I can remember, and I did it for 6 years.
Um ... I know a few people who would disagree with you rather strongly there. Perhaps you had the good fortune to work in a school with well-behaved kids, but the stories I hear about teaching nowadays from friends of mine sound like they have a much harder time of it than I have in my IT job.
QuoteThe pound is still a used currency ?? lol :p
Salaries look huge in US$ ... I had an instinctive "wow, you're rich" reaction to a couple of posts before doing the conversion :P
[in france]
In cities, beeing a teacher is harder than beeing a cop ...
You have no fighting courses in college :), When you are a cop, you do ( actually no college needed to be a cop lol )
But teachers do not win much here, as school is a "public service" , you are paid by the government, and earn, well, almost nothing ;)
University and private schools teachers win more.
Thank you for pointing out that flaw in my argument, CJ. Let me clarify my point: Teaching as a profession - the skill required - is not difficult, but it is taxing. When I taught little kids who were hyperactive and didn't want to listen, it was often very hard. It's 'hard work' insofar as there is a lot of issues regarding managing the kids you teach. I won't disregard that particular difficulty - but as you pointed out, the difficulty stems from luck of the draw. The profession in general, however, only requires that a teacher has the skill to instruct others in a general field of skill. To teach high school math, you need a knowledge of the mathematical concepts that you will be teaching. Granted most math teachers will understand much more deep concepts than the average layman will, but the fact remains that these are concepts that you learn in high school, so aside from general teaching courses, a math teacher only needs to know what they learned in high school.
This is going to sound very condescending, and I apologize to anyone offended by this. I have the utmost respect for teachers, and as I said before, I was one for a long time. I did my degree in Linguistics, and became a language teacher. It was a lot of work, and I don't want to belittle anyone's hard work, but I'm making an objective statement about the general value of learned and acquired skills.
All work is 'hard' in its own way, but some jobs' difficulty stems not from the personal ability of the person, but outside factors. That's why physical labor doesn't pay well - it's not something that has to be learned over a long period of time. To put it in a vulgar sense, "anyone can do it". The people who end up getting paid more are the people who show skill in a specific field within their job. People who can lead, manage, plan or have shown particular dedication and efficiency in their job. People receive higher pay to compensate for the relative rarity and perceived value of their skill. That's why you will make more in the IT field, CJ, than a high school teacher is likely to. I don't think it's "right", I'd rather teach than do what I'm doing now. But I'm trying not to make it a personal thing.
RickJ, in your quest to hand out advice to me, in a manner of unsurpassed patronage, you seem to miss my points. I'm gonna make a numbered list to clarify myself.
1. I'm not dissatisfied with my own lot, nor do I yearn for more money. I was happy when I was working for less money and I'm happy now. It seems alien to you that I can detach my personal wellbeing from this discussion.
2. I'm running this case because I think teachers over all are badly paid, and I do think this fact affects the situation in the schools. I think if people feel overlooked and wronged they'll lose confidence and comittment, in the end perform worse. This notion is also completely beyond you.
3. It's cynical to say that a person is paid fairly just because that person and his/her peers still do their job. For instance, I think care workers should be paid more, because I think they do a very important job - nursing the really old and weak, and I think even a small raise could help improving the standards. I'm happy that in your country there seem to be no debates regarding health care (and the cases of maltreatment therein) or childrens' ability to read, write etc.
Rick, try to elevate yourself above the coorporate mechanisms and look at society at large. And please review your posts in the future and tone down the condescending approach. You're not speaking to your son here.
I think that what I'm about to say will sound rather bad... But anyhow, this is what I think, and I have a hunch that I'm not alone there.
Teachers, while doing a valuable job, and actually teaching is one of the core professions in a society (dealing with the younger generation), well we've got to agree that it doesn't take a huge ammount of knowledge to know. Of course teachers have to have a Bachelors (at least in Greece, but in the uk?) but other than that the knowledge they deliver stops to what an 18 year old learns.
Under this oversimplified idea, a university professor should earn more than a teacher (as he does), and a professor teaching postgraduates even more.
It doesn't take specialized knowledge to teach a 15 year old thus a lot of people can do it, which creates antagonism and problems.
I know, very very well, that it's NOT easy, in fact is damn hard, but this does not mean that it should be paid more, at least it's not that straight forward.
Quote from: Nikolas on Sat 06/10/2007 09:17:14
we've got to agree that it doesn't take a huge ammount of knowledge to know. Of course teachers have to have a Bachelors (at least in Greece, but in the uk?) but other than that the knowledge they deliver stops to what an 18 year old learns.
It doesn't take specialized knowledge to teach a 15 year old thus a lot of people can do it, which creates antagonism and problems.
It takes a lot of skill to teach
well. Of course, not all teachers are good teachers, but then this is true of any profession. But to claim that being a good teacher is easy and that anyone could do it simply not the case.
Almost anyone can be a teacher, but not everyone can teach.
I commented on the ammount of knowledge needed to teach, and what needs to be passed over to the pupils and in fact mentioned that it's not easy being a teacher, never mind a good teacher.
But surely good teachers should be paid more to keep them in the profession and stop them leaving and finding another type of job?
well...
As far as I know, and based from what I know in Greece, almost all teachers work in public schools (which is the case in Greece and public schools outnumber private for 100/1 or something). I don't know if this is the case in the uk.
But since it's public jobs, I guess there is a set salary, and I do find that it would be difficult to judge such a thing.
BTW, my father was (retired now) a professor in the university (cardiology) and he was paid exactly like another professor in music, in arts, in maths, in whatever.
Now, privately I guess things would be different, but then again, as far as I see here in the uk, and based to my wife who is searching for a new job right now, salaries are pretty much set. An architect with 7 years of experience can expect a set salary.
Of course, I'm under the impression that in the uk the whole educational system is suffering. I see all the time ads for higher education. With I don't know how many unis around, and I don't know how many international students, it appears that the unis are doing good, while Brittish students don't really get higher education. There is a lack of motivation for further studying, and I don't know if this extends to lower grades and ages and so to teachers as well...
Although composition is something that needs an adult student more or less, I do love teaching myself, and I would gladly combine it with freelance composing. I mean, this is the general plan for the near future.
There's a lot more to teaching then just knowing the material your learning. The ability to teach is a difficult one. You have to know how to manage an age group and a mind set that you may no longer understand. It doesn't make it easy that a teacher, generally, has to deal with new people and new situations every year. As an IT person I deal with the "Same Shit Different Day" type of work. My job isn't likely to change drastically (not that it can't or won't, it's just not as regular). I know that I would have no talent for being able to teach a classroom. Knowledge, yes...ability, no.
That said, I do completely respect teachers. But I completely respect my profession too. So why can't teachers make as much money? It's because as a whole there are a lot of people who are willing to work for those wages. Unfortunately, if you value yourself at a higher level of pay, it's difficult to find someone who's willing to pay your salary. There's a much larger number of people willing to take teaching positions at the lower salary with similar skill sets. Should teachers be paid more? Probably...but until most of them start valuing themselves above that pay scale, the salary will stay.
It's a lot easier for me to say, I will work for you, but this is what I want to be paid. Simply because there are less people who are capable of doing my job well. At the same time, though, my job isn't as secure as yours. The teaching industry will always grow with the population, but the IT industry is more susceptible to grow and shrink. I think, though, ultimately, it's up to you to make sure your salary is what you think it needs to be, or bite the bullet and say 'money isn't everything, and I love teaching.'
In general, though, most people probably don't think their earning what their worth, or feel undervalued in their jobs. That's something that is across the board in almost every field.
-MillsJROSS
Hmm. Interesting back-and-forth discussion on the topic of teaching here. Before I decided to transform into an Electronics Engineer I briefly considered studying to become a Historian. History has always excited me -- not just what we can learn about the past but what we can learn about ourselves -- and I thought it would be a good fit. I'm not sure how common this is, but my history teachers all the way up through college were always the most interesting and lively characters, and I suppose that excitement passed on to me. I decided rather quickly though that I'm not the type of person who enjoys standing up and instructing people, so I chose a more behind-the-scenes profession. This is probably where some people make a mistake and become teachers in spite of knowing that it's not what they really want to do. For example, we've probably all had a professor that just looked damn uncomfortable up there teaching a class, someone that probably would rather be in a lab or a computer room by themselves (and it showed). I think that the really good teachers are the ones that make you interested in a topic in spite of yourself, and that's hard work. I had a professor once that got me really interested in Solid-state Physics, and you know it's got to take a lot of work to make physics or math exciting!
I knew salaries in my country are rediculously low compared to prices&expenses, that are about the same or sometimes even higher than in other EU countries.. but i always took such comparisons with a grain of salt.
However, reading this thread i realized how bad the state here actually is.
For example: high school teachers make only around 1000 eur a month! A starting salary for medical doctors is around 1500 eur (for dentist even less.. around 1100 eur)! Etc.
Working as freelance animator/illustrator, my average cut of yearly income is around 1000+ eur a month (it will probably get a bit better now.. but still..). My girlfriend still studies, so she can financialy help only occasionally.
The rent is 350 eur. The rest goes for bills and food that is also rediculously expensive!
So, heh, i have no idea, how we manage to get through a month..
There's a massive trade-union strike planed for the end of this year, for higher salaries that would actually follow inflation.. but i'm afraid not much will happen.
my business pulls in about 2500 USD a month and my teaching for the community college adds another 300 per month and then the teaching at the ministry of education pulls in 7500 per month(but thats only for 2 months a year)
I'm a high school teacher in the US. I make a smidge over 42k USD a year. It's not bad pay, but the job can be very taxing at times, though, oddly, that's what makes it so fulfilling. I made decent money after I got out of the Air Force doing something else, but what I really wanted to do was teach.
Unfortunately, too many parents (in the US, at any rate) I encounter hold to the adage "those who can do, those who can't teach" as a way to explain why their special little snowflake is doing so poorly in his studies (obviously, that their kid never turns in homework or studies for tests has nothing to do with low grades) but that's what anyone in public service puts up with: so many of the people you meet think they can do your job better than you -- how hard can it be to be a teacher / police officer / nurse /soldier / what-have-you?
The money isn't fantastic, but doing my part to get the next generation ready to face the world is incredibly fulfilling. And those long summer vacations aren't bad either (when I'm not teaching summer school, that is -- the most thankless thing a teacher can volunteer for, by the way).
There's more to life than money.
- Ponch
Quote from: Ponch on Wed 10/10/2007 23:32:53
(obviously, that their kid never turns in homework or studies for tests has nothing to do with low grades)
Respectfully, a lot of times this can be attributed to bad teaching. You're probably aware that people have different learning methods that are better suited to them and some can't learn from book reading due to hyperactivity or whatever. So if your teacher is a bad lecturer and/or the kid is afraid to speak up in class then he/she has no idea how to do homework and studying is a futile effort that he/she gives up.
For example I had a chem teacher who simply wrote on the board what chapter to read and what problems to do, he had no idea how to do any of the problems so he'd just give us the correct answer and tell us to work toward that if we asked for help. So how, under these circumstances, was I supposed to do well in the class unless I was especially adept at teaching myself?
Of course, my teacher was quickly found out and replaced at first semesters end, but it doesn't always work that way. It didn't work that way with my equally incompetent Spanish teacher.
I'm not saying that you're a bad teacher, just that you shouldn't use that as an excuse for a students poor grades. Sometimes a change in tactics is in order, and sometimes they'll be better off dropping out and going to trade school or a farm, IMHO.