Adventure Game Studio

Well it appears that hurricane Frances (http://www.weather.com/maps/news/atlstorm6/atlanticsatelliteradar_large.html) is bearing down on us South Floridians ...

This will be my first hurricane (if it hits here that is) that I've actually experienced.Ã,  I'm only about 5 or 6 miles inland from the Atalantic Ocean so it should kick up something fierce if it hits us head on.

I've watched tornadoes from less than a mile away (on more than one occasion).

I've been in two earth quakes (mild thankfully).

I've been in several floods (one REALLY bad out in Salt Lake City).

I've been in more blizzards than I care to recount (I was driving from Florida to Michigan in the blizzard of '96 some of y'all Statesmen might remember that little ditty)

We had to run from a forest fire one time out in California.

I've even been in a mildly destructive sand storm in New Mexico (or was it Arizona) one time.

A hurricane is my 'final frontier' of natural disasters and I must admit that I'm somewhat (naively) anticipating this.

I've stockpiled my provisions and have battened down the hatches!!

BRING IT ON FRANCES!!!

When the hurricane comes you should move into your friends bombshelter.

Best of luck...

...but if you're still looking for an even MORE final frontier afterwards, you may want to be around during a volcano erruption. I'm sure it'd be loads of fun.

I don't see any volcanos, tidal waves, meteors, asteroids, comets, hey there's more but yeah , that's quite a list, hope it doesn't cause too much damage if it hits you. Good luck.

We call them Cyclones in Australia, and they are Typhoons in SE Asia, I was actually quite annoyed when I saw that movie recently with those massive Hurricanes as they mentioned a Typhoon in Australia thinking that they were clever, but they fucked up as usual with their research (and yes they spin the other way in the sothern hemisphere)

I've never experienced ANY kind of natural disaster. I'm always hoping I'll be involved in a flood or a cyclone one day... *sigh*

Good luck with your hurricane. Take some shots with a handicam and sell them to the news.

I really hope Frances decides to go somewhere else.  I went through Hurricane Andrew and I'd really rather not go through something like that again.  Even though I'm currently in North Central Florida, my family and house and all are in Miami, so if we get hit, we're kinda screwed.  Anyhoo, we'll see what happens.

Just turn on a couple of fans and point them toward the shore.


Problem obliviated! (tm)

Interesting, I've never experienced any natural disaster.
Scandinavia is safely situated in the middle of a big continential shelf which never really seems to move.
We don't have sand enough to render a sandstorm, and blizzards only occur in the north.
I don't think there has ever been a cyclone, tornado or twister even close to where I live.
Floods? Not in the gothenburg area, but other places had to evacuate some months this summer, which was quite a bummer I guess, but it's not like anybody died from it, as far as I know.

Additionally, we don't have dangerous animals here, apart from moose and bears which never attack humans unless somehow provoced.

If you want to feel safe from the horrors of nature, move here.

Or maybe all you need is some anticyclone spray.

I've never experienced anything that could reasonably be called a natural disaster either - fairly heavy storms, occasionally, but never anything that did much more than take a few shingles of somebody's roof, or abduct a sunshade, or temporarily flood a street. Lots of forest/brush fires when I was on vacation in Italy last year, though, but almost all seen only from afar.

Alec - That was pretty funny!

Grundislav - Yeah, my girlfriend was here for Andrew too and she is dreading this one.Ã,  She thinks I'm nuts for being excited because she remembers being without power (electricity) for 18 days.Ã,  I told her that if that happens this time, by the 3rd or 4th day, I'm out of here.Ã,  There's just no possible way I can survive that long without my internet access.Ã,  I'd go nuts!Ã,  I love going camping for a few days to get away from technology, but this would be different ...

I was up in Michigan last year for the Big Black Out (August 14th, 2003), which some of you may recall.Ã,  At first it was fun, but after awhile it was just annoying.Ã,  So I guess I can add that to my list ... though it's not really a 'natural' disaster so to speak.

I saw Halley's comet when I was a kid, and Hale Bop a few years ago.

I saw the Leonids (meteor shower) in Nov. of 2001 and I even remember the Perseids way back in '83.

Ozwalled - Sara and I are planning a trip to Hawaii (so I can put a check mark next to volcano) though technically it's safe to view that volcanoÃ,  ... perhaps I'll move to the base of Mt. St. Helens and cross my fingers :)

Andail - I bet insurance is super cheap there!Ã,  Then again, most other countries probably don't have the scam of insurance like the good ol' US of A.Ã,  (but that's another thread!)Ã,  Actually sounds like a rather nice place to live ... South Florida isn't so bad (I prefer Michigan), the only things you have to watch out for here are alligators (which you rarely ever see), a few snakes, and the 2 fast 2 furious idiots who think they know how to drive ...

I fell over in a puddle once.
Take shaky video recordings fo the hurricane  and your family and friends with their hair blowing around. Then smash some pots and windows and take badly focused videos of them too. Then sell them to your local tv station and record it off the tele onto a tape. show it to your grandkids.

Mandarb sure has been through alot, we should make a game.......

I live in Island and there has been svereal volcanos eruption and i was in a middle of city were an earthquake came, i think it was about 7.4 richtscale
well anyway for those who don't know how its like, here is a satelite photo:
(http://www.geocities.com/jnatann/Images/Natl_seismicity.jpg)
there have been many volcanos on this area and many earthquakes here is a pickture of iceland, and the dots are earthquakes:
(http://www.geocities.com/jnatann/Images/island.png)
and as you can see, there have been many earthquakes for the last 24 hours, but still its fun to be here ;)

everyone has been in an earthquake...

they happen all the time

I haven't, in fact the First time that Inverness has had a Natural disaster in 100 years or so (Twas a flood) I was in France.

Maybe I'm just lucky... (Gets provisions for the inevitable disaster.)

I just just hope the Hurricane doesn't push back the FSU vs Miami game this weekend. Or kill people...but mostly the game thing.

-MillsJROSS

I live in Maine (US) and its very rare for us to get earhquakes Although we do get them there so minor they shake for 10 minutes and you barley feel it....  My grams house got destroyed in the last hurricane down there its a real bumber, The old cadaliac didn't even get a scratch  ;D

Quoteand as you can see, there have been many earthquakes for the last 24 hours, but still its fun to be here

That's a kick-ass quote

But Perseida and Leónidas happen every year, Darth...  :)

Yeah.Ã,  I live in South Florida as well.Ã,  I haven't seen the news in a little while, but it looks like its gonna make landfall right around here...

If I don't come back on AGS Forums after this weekend, I'm either dead, dying, without power or I am having a barbaque at Grund's house.Ã,  Or maybe DM, if I can remember where he moved to.Ã,  Davie, was it?

Coral Springs Powa!11!

- Tiki

Thats a very positive attitude towards death there

Good luck with the flurrie of bad weather, floods, earthquakes.

I live in Britain, peaceful ol' Britain..

Quote from: Farlander on Wed 01/09/2004 19:48:14
But Perseida and Leónidas happen every year, Darth...Ã,  :)

Yes, but those years were the 'strongest' displays of them (or so I was told) in recent history.Ã,  I could be mistaken?

They are activating the EOC (Emergency Operations Center) at 5am (thursday morning) and are expecting to put us under a hurrican watch later tonight (Wednesday).

Tiki - yes I'm in the city limits of Davie, but my address is a Ft. Lauderdale address.Ã,  I think we're far enough inland that we don't have to worry about an evacuation though.Ã,  Which is good, cause I wouldn't want to leave anyway.

DM:Ã,  How far away are you from the general CS area?

Quote from: Clueless3
Thats a very positive attitude towards death there

Hey, I lived through Hurricane Andrew, I think I this will be a piece of cake.

A very windy cake, that is.Ã,  That moves quickly, and swirls around, and throws cows and ruins homes and...

Quote from: Mephistophilis on Wed 01/09/2004 17:04:59
I haven't,

trust me, you have. They happen every day, everywhere

Yeah I think us folks that lived through Ol' Andy see every other storm as a moderate gale.  Although, Frances is pretty well-formed, much like Andrew was.

These big storms should have less wimpy names.  It's been said millions of times, but I want my house to be levelled by Hurricane Attila, not Frances. That sounds like somebody's ancient auntie who brings you cookies.

...although "Ol' Andy" sounds mighty impressive to me, I must say.

"Hurricane LeChuck"

"My house was levelled by hurricane LeChuck, the crusty ol' bastard"

Quote from: Grundislav on Wed 01/09/2004 23:24:01
These big storms should have less wimpy names.Ã,  It's been said millions of times, but I want my house to be levelled by Hurricane Attila, not Frances. That sounds like somebody's ancient auntie who brings you cookies.

When I was first crafting this thread I said much the same thing.Ã,  Why couldn't it be hurricane Genghis Kahn or hurricane Conan.Ã,  Something manly and threatening sounding.

But I didn't want to offend anybody reading this who might happen to have the name Frances.

But since you did it ...

I was in an ice storm.
It was cool-ass.

Of course, I wasn't saying that at the time, when we didn't have electricity for a few weeks.

But now, in retrospect... COOL-ASS.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/releasethefrogs/earthquakes.png

I've marked 3 places.

Red Dot: That "famous" 1989 one in San Fransisco that was about 7.1 on the richter scale. (I was a fetus at the time.)

Pink Dot: Last December, there was a 6.4 one up where I dotted (near Cambria).  I normally live much further down from there, but I just happened to be staying at my grandparent's house, and they live about 10 miles away.

Blue Dot:  That's where I live.  As you can see, not much happeneing around me. 

As you can see, there have been many earthquakes for the last 24 hours, but still its fun to be here.  ;D

MAN!!  This is insane down here!

People are running around like it's kingdom come or something.

Armegeddon is fast approaching.

I'm documenting it all (taking lots of pictures!)  As soon as this thing blows over (literally) I'll post some of them up!

(Is it wrong of me to be enjoying this??)

I fear

nah, you're just a stormhunter or what they're called. m0ds erm midis does that stuff iirc.

I'm almost certain I haven't Although I am sitting on a Dormant Faul line, I think.

Man, all the Home Depots have full parking lots, empty shelves, and lines out to the street, nearly.  The gas stations either have 20 cars in a line, or they are completely out of gas.  The highways heading North and just insane, but heading south is quite empty, I must say. 

I've spent the last 5 - 6 hours helping my grandparents in Delray Beach.  They haven't used some of those shutters in a decade, and my Grandpa broke his arm this week trying to get some of them up. 

Now, I just need to spend this afternoon getting my shutters up.  Thankfully, they are the accordian type, so it should be somewhat easy.  My mom is hopefully flying out to Indiana tomorrow morning, to catch my Aunt's wedding.

I doubt you guys will be hearing from me for a few days at least, except for today and maybe the wee hours of tomorrow.

Gah, good luck to the other Floridians/Future storm victums.
- Tiki

Its the Apocoly- ..Ooh, wait, is that ice-cream?

I decided to head out to see what was going on around town ...
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/skyline-thursdayafternoon.jpg)
No too ominous ... yet.

(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/market01.jpg)
The local market was jammed and most of the shelves were empty!!

Decided to get some petrol.Ã,  I was waiting in line at the station for well over an hour.Ã,  And this is no joke, the pumps ran out AS I was topping off my tank!!
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/gas-station01.jpg)
And this wasn't even the worst that it got ... the rest of the free space filled up too.Ã,  I had to yell at several people who were trying to cut in line.

It was hairs breath from falling apart ... crazy stuff!!

Tiki - Yeah, my dad was boarding up his offices (he's in Pompano Beach, right under the gun!) and he said Home Depot was a mad house!!Ã,  Anyway ... good luck man!

I hope everything is okay down your way, Darth.  Hehehe, I'd take EvenWolf's advice and point some fans towards the shore!! :)

Ye best get an anchor!

I notice that noone in that supermarket shot is buying magazines. What, noone thinks they'll need reading material while all this is happening?

Sara and I decided to head East (toward the Atlantic) to see what we could see over the waves.Ã,  This was as close as we got ... They weren't letting anybody through.
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/friday_roadblocked01.jpg)


I think the owner of this miami subs should win a Darwin award 'cause that's just not gonna help much buddy!!
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/friday_notgonnawork.jpg)


The wind started kicking up while we were out:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/friday_windy.jpg)


You could really see the wall of the hurricane as we were headed home:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/skyline_fridayafternoon03.jpg)


I found a way onto the roof of my building:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/skyline_fridayafternoon.jpg)

EDIT - screw this storm ... it's downgraded to a category 2 and is stalling over the bahamas.Ã,  Now all we're going to get is a bad thunderstorm for several days.Ã, 

I feel jipped ...

Well, there's always Ivan.Ã,  Here's hoping.

Well I am alive :)

I'm at my mother's house.Ã,  They sustained more damage than we did but they still have power.Ã,  I, however, do not.Ã,  I'm going nuts without power.

I got a few good pictures of the aftermath which I'll post soon.

It got REALLY windy and rained more that I thought it would so now I'm even more curious to see a stronger storm.

Tiki - Coral Springs got hit harder than we did ... you still with us?

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 03/09/2004 21:20:31

EDIT - screw this storm ... it's downgraded to a category 2 and is stalling over the bahamas.Ã,  Now all we're going to get is a bad thunderstorm for several days.Ã, 

I feel jipped ...

Well, there's always Ivan.Ã,  Here's hoping.

Wow, you must really love severe weather!!!Ã,  Come see us here in Kansas and we'll drive around and play chicken with tornadoes on the highway!Ã,  ;D

36 hours without power!  Yeee!

I got some catching up to do.  I'll have pictures eventually.

Darth:  Yeah, I'm still here.   Saturday night was pretty bad.  Sat afternoon, however, I took a stroll around the neighborhood.  Winds were about 30 - 40 on my little outing....
Yesterday, I went resaurant hunting.  BIG mistake.  For lunch, I looked from 11:30 to 2:40.  We found two or three places, but they were completely MOBBED, with an hour and a half wait to get seated.  We eventually found Brooklyn Brothers Pizzaria, and waited another hour for some food.  Not because of lines, however.  Stupid cooks.

And don't get me started on dinner....
:D

I wish we had hurricanes around here too. All we have is wind blowing a bit harder once in the year blowing one tree over, and then all the newspapers are titled like "Storm hit Estonia!", "Did you see the storm!!???". Lame.  ::)

I've only had one bigger storm, it was about 6 or 7 years ago. I live in the 5 storied flat, and I could feel the building move back and forth. That was cool!

But no hurricanes, earthquakes or anything like that. Only floods once in a while.


-Eigen

 Yes we all wish hurricanes would come and blow down our houses and stop our electricty flow.

The hurricane is still blowing its way through Gainesville. As a result, school has been cancelled tomorrow as well, bringing the number of days stuck inside the house without being able to leave up to a grand total of 4.

Last night the cable and internet went out around 9pm and they just came back now, which is good cause I think boredom would have driven me to insanity otherwise.

Quote from: Grundislav on Mon 06/09/2004 19:30:58Last night the cable and internet went out around 9pm and they just came back now, which is good cause I think boredom would have driven me to insanity otherwise.

Well do I know that!Ã,  We were only without power for just over 1 full day and I was already going crazy.Ã,  The only day we didn't leave the house was Saturday (and I was still going outside to take pictures!)

It's funny 'cause even when the trees where bending over doing toe-touches Sara and I sat on the back porch and just watched it all.Ã,  The wind, for whatever reason, just never found it's way into our back porch.Ã,  It was very cook, but bizarre.

Everybody who said I would regret anticipating the storm turned out to be right though ... but not in the way they meant.Ã,  I regretted anticipating the storm because I also didn't anticipate the ammount of boredom I would experience!Ã,  Good God!!Ã,  It was hours of NOTHING!!Ã,  It was so boring!!

Here's some pictures of the aftermath ... rather than being REALLY damaging to our area, it looked more like your house after a big party.Ã,  It was more messy than damaged.

(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/sunday_damage01.jpg)
this may have been done intentionally ... but either way it was funny.

(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/sunday_damage02.jpg)
the atrium gate at my parent's house (in Coral Springs)

(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/sunday_damage03.jpg)
it's hard to tell, but that tree is laying on it's side, completely uprooted.

(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/frances/sunday_damage04.jpg)
there IS a parking lot under there somewhere ...

Well, the remains of Hurricane Frances headed north into Western New York and left a lot of rain here.Ã,  My dad took these pictures today.

Because of my web hosting, i'm sorry to those who can't see the pic's, because i know a few here can't see anything i put online.

(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7xpq3/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/flood2.jpg)

(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7xpq3/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/flood1.jpg)

all this after only 4 inches of rain.

DAMN!!!

I thought we had it bad down here! We didn't see flooding like that!

Although it's so saturated down here that it's still flooding up when it rains ... though not that bad!

I dread what will happen if Ivan hits us now.  Though I'm still looking forward to it.

Those 2 guys on those rubber boats seem to be having a lot of fun.

I wish we had a flood in here, yeah, sounds weird but I do, it would be cool. I could do something useful with my boat. And I live on the 2nd floor, so no problems.

We haven't even had a spooky Spring storm for 2 years. If it comes, it will be even spookier, because there's a big ...and I mean BIG tree 2 meters from my room. I hope it doesn't fall on my room when it falls.

Well ... Ivan missed us, and then Jeanne passed us by.Ã,  But now Jeanne has turned completely around and is headed right for us!!

It's moving much faster and is a bigger (more powerful) storm than Frances was.Ã,  I'm not worried about anything except losing power ... no power means no computer/internet, no TV/DVD, no nothing = BORING!!

It's supposed to be here by later tonight (Saturday in the U.S.A.) ...

I'm officially announcing that I'm ready for Hurricane Season to end.Ã,  And to think I had tickets for the Gloria Estefen concert tonight ... *sigh*

Another weekend, another hurricane.

The only things I'm worried about this time around:
1.    Power going out (like Darth)
2.    Cable going out (obviously won't matter if power is dead...)
3.    Still having to go to school Monday.

Well, I think I have my priorities straight.   In all seriousness, though, I truely hope this is the last one for a long, long time.

Gosh, here in California we don't get any natural disasters at all. Even if there is a thunderstorm or an earthquake they are rare here and they don't do any damage at all! Strange how the other parts of the bay area (By bay area I mean the area with Oakland, San Francisco, Berkeley .etc......) get serious flood and we here are perfectly safe.

Quote from: Edwin Xie on Sat 25/09/2004 21:57:03
Gosh, here in California we don't get any natural disasters at all.

Ever heard of 'jinxing it' or 'famous last words'? :P

Be sure to pack in a portable DVD player, or you'll get bored once caved in.  ::)

Well, I don't have a portable DVD player, and if I bout one now I'd end up not losing power at all.

Then again, if I don't, I will lose power.

The same general principal goes with shutters...

*Edwin blinks at Pumaman like he doesn't know what he's talking about

I think Pumaman is talking about the 'BIG ONE'. The massive earthquake that sends California into the ocean.

Hope it never happens.

Oh yeah, that rumor that California will become an island. I especially hope that never happens.

I can't wait. Maybe all them damn hippies will fall in the sea and finally have a wash.

I'm happy because I had 2 tests tomorrow and they cancelled class.  Thanks, Jeanne!

I still have school, most likely, gah.  At least we didn't lose power...

I live!

This time around was a better show.Ã,  It wasn't constantly windy like Frances was, but it was FAR stronger winds.Ã,  So when the gusts came through it was quite impressive!

Watching the power transformers sparking all night was fun too.Ã,  When the wind blows strong, the wires 'rub' (rubbin is racin') and throw up quite a fireworks display!

As a result, we lost power about 9pm.Ã,  It flickered a few times but then went off for good.

About 3:30am it flickered back a few times before going off again.Ã,  Then came back on for good about 4:30am.

It hasn't flickered since.

So it wasn't too bad ... though I was bored outta my mind from about 1am to 4:30am because Sara (who can fall asleep at will) zonked out about 1am and I had nothing to do.Ã,  Thank god I had charged my GameBoy Advance ... I played Tetris for 4 hours.

Oh ... and by the way, I was kidding about the Gloria Estefen concert ... I couldn't be paid to go see that no talent hack.Ã,  But the concert WAS cancelled ... bummer.

Quote from: Edwin Xie on Sun 26/09/2004 01:48:12
Oh yeah, that rumor that California will become an island. I especially hope that never happens.

If that odd rumor were to come true, it would only effect the left side of California, leaving the right side safely attached like a leech.

I think it would be awesome if we became an island.  Heh.
Of course, if it were to happen, Edwin would be a lot closer to it than me, so he may get sucked into the earth's fiery magma live on double-sided beach property.

this has probably been done before but, who names hurricanes? wouldn't it sound way cooler if you heard people screaming "HOLY SHIT! ITS HURRICANE DEATHMONGER!" rather than "oh crikey, its hurricane julian". just my tuppence hapeny.

ANyway, im glad you're all okay.

nothin' but rain and 1cm of snow ever happends where I live.   :-\

Well, it seems I spoke too soon. Our power was just restored about half an hour ago (8:30pm EDT) after being out since about 5:30pm on Sunday.  There were some fun experiences, though, as our apartment complex all converged on the patio outside for BBQ and evening musical serenades for lack of anything else better to do. 

That actually does sound like fun ...

Last year, while still living in Michigan, when we had that huge blackout, the same kind of thing happened.  We went over to a friend's house and all the neighbors were all walking about talking to one another, having BBQs, etc.  (my closest neighbor to my house, was about 1/2 mile away).

It gave a bit of insight to the world before electricity ... no wonder it was a friendlier place back then! ;)

And then Hurricane Katrina hit.  Was heading right towards us in Broward County, then shifted down towards Miami/Dade a bit - they got it worse then we did.  I was lucky enough not to lose power, but did lose a dozen patio screens and a basketball hoop hit one of our cars.  Was/is a category 1, the weakest a Hurricane can be.

Here we go again.

Yeah ... this one wasn't so bad.  Our power flickered on and off quite a few times but was never out for more than a few minutes.

The roads are covered with vegetation that got ripped up and flung about.  There was an apt. building just up the road from me that the second floor caved in ... but, suprisingly, nobody was even injured.  An old lady was killed by a tree just down the road from me as well.  Sad.

Grundislav is in Dade ... so he's probably without power.  They got hit pretty bad down there.

I hope this season isn't as bad as last year.  Hurricanes are boring.

Yep, we got ripped apart this time around.  I have no power and tons of trees have been downed. (I'm typing this from my grandmother's house, who is fortunate enough to have power.) 

On the bright side, I don't have to go to work today! Or possibly tomorrow.  But on the sucky side, it looks like we're going to be without power until at least Saturday afternoon.

Bummer.

Grundislav - glad you're okay!  Bummer about the power!  We lost power last year for some time so I can sympathize!

So ... Tiki, Grundislav and I have all checked in.  What about Mills?  Anybody heard from him?

I'm sure he's fine, just curious how he fared!

I've been at pre-season Marching Chiefs for the past week which starts at 7am and usually runs till about 9pm (with a few breaks for dinner and lunch), so I haven't been on-line much. We haven't really felt the hurricane, other than a nice breeze, cloud cover, and a few light rains. This part of Florida has been really lucky, I'm just hoping it stays that way.

On the sucky side, I do have to go to work tomorrow, and school starts back up this monday (but I'm secretly looking forward to it). Thanks for your concern.
-MillsJROSS

Oh my, what is it you yanks have done that makes God punish you with these hurricanes all the time?

Let's not forget about New Orleans, which could be destroyed. Katrina is a class 5 now.

Man thats crazy... I've been following a thread (http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?s=hreadid=224734&perpage=40) of a guy who lives around there and its pretty freaky.

Katrina was a category 4 when it made landfall this morning at 6AM (via CNN.com)

I am actually dreading seeing the aftermath ... it's not going to be pretty.  New Orleans is going to be wiped off the map as Homestead (Florida) was with Andrew back in '92.

The storm surge was reported at 20 feet ... those low lying Gulf Coast cities are just gonna get swallowed by this beast.

Were I a praying man I'd be throwing some up north for those people ...

This is worse than 911.

Does that mean that Bush will declare a "War on Weather"?

He will hunt down all hurricanes, and all those who harbour these hurricanes, and bring them all to american justice.

I see a sequel to Twister on the horizon.  Starring Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson and Sigourney Weaver as Hurricane Hunters.  Armed only with video cameras and a hell of a lot of explosives, they're gonna learn that thar weather system a lesson.

I signed up to Michael Moore's mailing list during the hot Farenheit (sp?) season. For a long time I've received nothing... and today I got this. I was quite speechless.

QuoteFriday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.

I've been meaning to post something about this.  I don't know if everyone in other countries is hearing about what is happening in New Orleans and Mississippi, but cities have literally been wiped off the map.  80% of the city of New Orleans is under water...not nice pool water...gasoline filled, corpse ridden disease infested water.  One of my best friends is from New Orleans, everyone in her family is now homeless.  Their businesses are destroyed.  Her mom and brother are driving up here to DC to live with her and her husband in a tiny one bedroom apartment.  Worst of all, there are thousands of people still trapped in New Orleans and can't get out.  The bridges out of the city have been destroyed.  They have a mini-city in the Superdome (a football stadium), but without water, bathrooms and food---and no clear presence of police/government/aid workers it's largely chaos.  The original evacuation "plan" created by the city depended on people having cars and their own transportation---guess what, a lot of poor people don't have cars or money to get out of the city.  So what you have is the impoverished, mainly African American residents of New Orleans trapped, left behind, homeless and in many cases--dying.

Sorry for the rant, but this is all quite upsetting.  I know it's not as bad as the Tsunami, but a tragedy is a tragedy. 

You can't measure tradegies by their bodycount.  It's still horrible and I have a great sympathy for any affected.  The most tragic part about it is that some people are saying, "Well, they had notice, they could've evacuated."  A great many people who stayed didn't have the resources to evacuate - for some, an impossibility, for others, they would've been in a nearly hopeless situation anyway.

Politically, it's great that the Prez is pledging aid and everything but why isn't he accepting aid from other countries that've offered?  Russia, Venezuela, France, all pledging resources to help but we'd much rather take care of it in-house and allocate more of our budget towards something other nations are willing to help with but our pride doesn't allow it.

It's also appalling that some religious nuts are claiming that it's God's judgement of a contemporary Sodom/Gomorrah city.

Well, you can't expect Bush to accept money from Chavez when, in the pledge announcement he called Bush some kind of vacationing playboy ( I forget the exact quote).  I mean, I would accept the money, but I don't imagine Bush would.  I doubt Bush will accept any money...after all, in his eyes, we're the country who donates money.  We're the rough & tough cowboy nation!  yee haw.

man, i despise that man.

Andail & SSH...my friends and I have been joking about the same thing.  But this time Bush won't be able to create a war to distract the American people from his incompetance.  Or maybe I'm giving the American people too much credit...

Actually, the US (through Condoleezza Rice, I believe) has, after much delay, said that it will accept all offers of aid and assistance.

As good of certain points Michael Moore makes in his letter, it sickens me that he's using this tragedy to further his own agenda.  Shame on him this time.


Bt

Quote from: Blackthorne on Fri 02/09/2005 23:57:56
As good of certain points Michael Moore makes in his letter, it sickens me that he's using this tragedy to further his own agenda.  Shame on him this time.

His agenda? To remove a generally terrible and retarded leader from power, you mean?

He isn't just trying to hawk videos, and he isn't manipulating anything in that letter. That shit really happened.

I despise Michael Moore.  With a passion.  While I tend to agree with what he says, I can't stand the way he goes about saying it.  He's currently just up the road from me at a fat farm (if the rumors I hear are true).

However ...

I watched the concert tonight (on NBC) for the hurricane relief.  It's the first time I've really heard of / seen the devestation that was once New Orleans.

It's simply horrible.

The fact that the federal government sat on their hands for two days ... it would have been inconcionable if they'd sat on their hands for two hours ... but two DAYS!!!  There's simply no [acceptable] reason for that.  None.

I (and most people I know) have already donated to the American Red Cross.  They have a donation section on their website and I urge EVERYbody reading this message, if you're able, to give what you can.

>> American Red Cross: Hurricane Katrina Relief Donations (http://arc.convio.net/site/PageServer?pagename=ntld_main&s_src=hurricanemasthead)

You know ... certain Nazis and members of the Japanese government were hung/shot after world war II for "crimes against humanity".

If it's true that Mr. Bush (personally) declined the funding to strengthen the levees around New Orleans, HE should be put on trial for crimes against humanity.  Those deaths are on his hands.

I'm going to bed ... disgusted.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sat 03/09/2005 04:17:49
I watched the concert tonight (on NBC) for the hurricane relief.Ã,  It's the first time I've really heard of / seen the devestation that was once New Orleans.

Have you not been watching the news? It's absolutely ridiculous. This is like the apocalypse has befallen the city. The only part left standing of New Orleans is what, the french quarter? 20,000 people were in the superdome - bits of the roof collapsed, and so rainwater seeped in. Toilets didn't work; there was no running water. They were caught in essentially less-than-prison conditions. Rescue efforts are merely to recover the living; the dead are marked with a GPS locator and left. Police aren't helping to relocate the deceased; they just tell them "move them to to the side of the road."

Chaos is rampant; looters are ravaging the city. Allegedly, National Guardsmen and Police patrolling the area were told to let people looting food, water, clothes go, and to shoot people looting anything else; there isn't any room to put people. A man who lives down my girlfriend's street has two daughters in New Orleans. One of them works at a prison and the last thing she text messaged him was "Daddy, the prisoners have taken over the prison. Everything is on fire and I'm going to die." The lag in government's response is just ridiculous, and I don't think it's enough at all for Bush to just simply say "yes, it IS ridiculous".

Don't just watch a concert and say it's horrible. Watch the news feeds. It's wrenching to have your own countrymen scream in anguish at the camera halfway across the country in third world (sub third world?) conditions. I can't even watch the news when I'm with my girlfriend; she breaks into tears nearly on sight.

Donating money doesn't feel like it's enough [on a related note, i'm wary of making financial donations]. I feel like I have to _do_ something. I'm going to go see if i can crash some donation drives this weekend and give food, blankets - whatever. I work at a retail store, and there's been talk about donating some of our stock; I'd look at the corporate environment much differently if we didso.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sat 03/09/2005 04:17:49
I despise Michael Moore.Ã,  With a passion.Ã,  While I tend to agree with what he says, I can't stand the way he goes about saying it.Ã, 

Yes, I'm right there with you. 

After this situation has abated, we can move on to the less than heroic acts of our "hero" president.  Right now, I'm concerned about the lives of the citizens of New Orleans.


Bt

Quote from: Andail on Mon 29/08/2005 10:16:17
Oh my, what is it you yanks have done that makes God punish you with these hurricanes all the time?

It was the agreement in Kioto, for reducing pollution, (don't know the official name). That one was ignored, selfishness, and now it comes back to you.

But all my sympathy goes to people there who cannot affect their own lifes. I know that if this disaster ever is gone, there will be people dying still, they can't buy housees, nor food, the place is dwelling with diseases, the people have lots everything they have, it's a deathtrap. The same thing with the tsunami, there will be thousands of deaths afterward, and the "list" of the dead will never be finished. This sickens me so much, and it's hard to watch the television, what is happening out there...

Quote from: Tuomas on Sat 03/09/2005 13:55:25
It was the agreement in Kioto, for reducing pollution, (don't know the official name). That one was ignored, selfishness, and now it comes back to you.

*cough kyoto protocol cough*

The sec.State just said the delay of federal aide to New Orleans was 'routine' as a result of legal framework.

Quote from: JeebusSez on Sat 03/09/2005 05:07:14Have you not been watching the news? ...

No ... I very rarely watch the "bad" news.  The whole, "if it bleeds it leads" mentaility of modern news agencies disgusts me and angers me ... so I don't watch.

Quote from: JeebusSez on Sat 03/09/2005 05:07:14Don't just watch a concert and say it's horrible. Watch the news feeds. It's wrenching to have your own countrymen scream in anguish at the camera halfway across the country in third world (sub third world?) conditions.

You make it sound like I don't care.  The concert was the first time I'd heard anything about it.  As far as I knew, the Gulf Coast got hit by a strong hurricane, woopity-doo ... I had 4 last year and 1 already this year.  I didn't know about the levee break.  I found out last night.  And I think my message made it perfectly clear how I felt about it.

Quote from: JeebusSez on Sat 03/09/2005 05:07:14Donating money doesn't feel like it's enough ...

I know what you mean ... but it IS helpful and, in a lot of cases, is all people can do.

One day everyone will stay in front of GOD.

At this point everyone are american people.

You bombed Serbia!!!!
Now GOD is bombing you!!!!

We are realy sorry for every innocent people esspecially kids.But you americans are only the dolls of the sistem.Once uppon a time there was one man who wanted to change your dirty society.HIS name was 2PAC.

And you KILLED HIM!!!!Ã, 

You wanted oil and you just make a diversion called WORLD TRADE CENTER tragedy.And after that your president announced WAR to Afganistan inside of CHURCH ??? All your economy is based on a WAR ???

There was a war in Serbia (Yugoslavia) people die on the every side (Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian) But croatian people dislodge more than 300000 people from their home more then a 300000 refuges and what happened after that Serbia got embargo ???And who gave us an embargo AMERICA 8)

Enough about Serbia let's talk more serius.

Indian people lived for century's in peace and harmony and you came from all sidesÃ,  of Europe( who was a first settlers that came to America and whyÃ,  ??? ) .
And it wasn't enough that Indian tribes gave you a hand of peace.No you don't want peace you wanted ALL.

AND YOU KILLED THEM ALL!!!

( after that you make Western movies where you show indians like they werre EVIL but they only wanted to defend their wifes and children)

You can't stop showing your big ego:

You call NBA world championship ( AND WHAT HAPPEND 2002 IN INDIANAPOLIS ??? ON A REAL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP WE WILL TELL YOU SERBIA WON THAT ONE)

Almost to forget BLACK people ??? You brought them from Africa as slaves is or was in the world worstest thing than that.And now they are better than you.

Oh GOD Hiroshima ATOM bomb that was your falt you done that.
Vietnam all that young men that died for what ??? you hated Vietnam people but you attaked them first.


America is country where women play football(soccer) where football is not football where seats at stadiums are way too big for ordinary human where you got yourself killed just for sayin out laud the truth.

Is all that because you don't have a tradition.
Is that because you don't have a history and now you are making one.

AMERICANS ARE YOU STILL PROUD OF YOUSELF AND OF USA


ps: sorry if we forgot someone(we are sure that we are)

once again we are praying for souls of the people who died in disaster






Ã,  Ã,  Ã, 

Yeah.

The best thing about being in Satan's army is the health benefits. The whole thing is pretty sweet, honestly.

Climate Change can't exactly determine which country did and did not sign a extremely weak pact which isn't even kept by the people who signed it anyway.

Kyoto's only purpose is to give people the impression their governments are doing something. It hasn't reduced emissions a bit.

Quote from: LJUBI on Sat 03/09/2005 23:32:33
One day everyone will stay in front of GOD.
You bombed Serbia!!!!
Now GOD is bombing you!!!!

LJUBI - The hurricane would have come even if all these things you've listed hadn't happened. In no possible way does anybody in the whole world deserve such a desaster, no matter what. Sure, you can be angry at americans for all these things for all I care, but saying this was a form of punishment for any of that goes too far. Please think again.

Ah, and the forum has its own Pat Robertson - equally insane and equally informed. 

Despite its "sins" the US still has a lot to be proud of and its distressing to hear of this scope of tragedy in any nation, regardless of its political allegiences. Congratulations LJUBI, for helping to maintain the world's average level of stupidity.

On another note:  A decent read about the crisis by a New Orleans native, Anne Rice (http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/wwl090305annerice.21ad697f.html)

Quote from: LJUBI on Sat 03/09/2005 23:32:33
You bombed Serbia!!!!
Now GOD is bombing you!!!!

We are realy sorry for every innocent people esspecially kids.But you americans are only the dolls of the sistem.Once uppon a time there was one man who wanted to change your dirty society.HIS name was 2PAC.

And you KILLED HIM!!!! 

You wanted oil and you just make a diversion called WORLD TRADE CENTER tragedy.And after that your president announced WAR to Afganistan inside of CHURCH ??? All your economy is based on a WAR ???

There was a war in Serbia (Yugoslavia) people die on the every side (Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian) But croatian people dislodge more than 300000 people from their home more then a 300000 refuges and what happened after that Serbia got embargo ???And who gave us an embargo AMERICA 8)

Enough about Serbia let's talk more serius.

*cough* Wasn't it Serbia started that war? *cough*

I happen to live in the US right now but I also happen to be from your general area of the world (Hungary, to be precise.) I remember fairly clearly that Serbia started the whole Yugoslavia-conflict. I'm not going to go into an argument with you on that, though, since you seem to speak with pure hate, rather than any kind of logic.

Your rant about the US deserving the hurricane hit was uncalled for, is insensitive and displays a great deal of ignorance in general about the world.

While the current US government is just a poor (but expensive and crude) joke, the US itself is a decent country - more or less. But that could be said about any country on Earth, with most of them more 'less' than 'more'.

With that said, I still choose to live here rather than in my own country, where deeply rotten politicians and the maffia is in the government and there is hardly any chance of making a decent living. In the US, people in general are much friendlier than in other countries I've been to (I admit, only about 6 or 7.) I could bring up a bunch of other positives (and quite a few negatives, too) of living here, but I won't. I'm sure, Serbia is a much better place to live, right?

As a final note, I refuse to talk to you until you apologise for your comments in front of this forum. Admins: please edit my comment if you deem it in any way unfitting. I don't mean to start a flame war on the forums.

Traveler

My words were much more blunt, but less eloquent, than your own. If anybody needed censoring, it would be me.  Delete my post, not his.  I am Spartacus.   It's similar to how: despite Iraq's many sins (in particular those of its leader), I'm still against the conflict and have the utmost sympathy for any victims in the general populous.  It's not out of any particular generosity or the big-heartedness but a little quality I like to call, "Humanity."  But I digress. . .

Google Maps has interesting satellite photos of New Orleans now.

Go to http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Orleans&ll=29.992556,-90.089006&spn=0.021363,0.035306=e&hl=en and compare the old and new photos.

Crazy stuff.

Quote from: Las Naranjas on Sat 03/09/2005 23:44:55
Kyoto's only purpose is to give people the impression their governments are doing something. It hasn't reduced emissions a bit.

Yeah, hasn't reduced, but hasn't either produced more, rather stopping it, and that's the most important, to stop it first, maybe then reducing it

Dudes (you're more than one person right?), don't blame America for killing 2Pac.  We didn't all kill 2Pac.  That was just me.  But it was an accident, I swear.  Don't worry though, I'll get what's coming to me.  That angry vengeful god who you apparently speak for is coming for me tonight:

(http://www.thexiis.com/media/nabi.jpg) (http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/tc-bin/tc_home2.cgi?YEAR=2005&MO=SEP&BASIN=WPAC&STORM_NAME=14W.NABI&PROD=geo&PHOT=yes&AGE=Latest&ARCHIVE=active&TYPE=vis&SIZE=thumb&NAV=tc&CURRENT=20050904.0519.goes9.x.vis1km_high.14WNABI.105kts-938mb-248N-1321E.jpg&DIR=/data/www/tropical_cyclones/tc05/WPAC/14W.NABI/vis/geo/1km_zoom&STYLE=tables&CURRENT_ATCF=wp142005.05090400.gif&ATCF_NAME=wp142005&PRODUCT=vis&SUB_PRODUCT=geo&SUB_SUB_PRODUCT=1km_zoom)

Quote from: LJUBI on Sat 03/09/2005 23:32:33
You bombed Serbia!!!!
Now GOD is bombing you!!!!

Uh-huh. So what exactly did all the people in Sri Lanka and Indonesia do for God to punish them with the tsunami?

QuoteEnough about Serbia let's talk more serius.

Indian people lived for century's in peace and harmony and you came from all sides  of Europe( who was a first settlers that came to America and why  ??? ) .
And it wasn't enough that Indian tribes gave you a hand of peace.No you don't want peace you wanted ALL.
AND YOU KILLED THEM ALL!!!

Err ... India is still populated largely by Indian people. What on earth are you talking about??

Now, despite a few requests from people via the "report to moderator" facility for me to do so, I'm not going to delete or edit your post. You're entitled to your opinion, and everyone else is entitled to their opinion of you based on what you post.

And if you really want to rant on that America is a bad place because women can play football there, that's up to you. But please keep this thread on-topic, which is the topic of the hurricane.

Quote from: Pumaman on Sun 04/09/2005 12:40:45

Quote from: LJUBI on Sat 03/09/2005 23:32:33
Indian people lived for century's in peace and harmony and you came from all sidesÃ,  of Europe( who was a first settlers that came to America and whyÃ,  ??? ) .
And it wasn't enough that Indian tribes gave you a hand of peace.No you don't want peace you wanted ALL.
AND YOU KILLED THEM ALL!!!

Err ... India is still populated largely by Indian people. What on earth are you talking about??

:D :D I bet you knew it, but to make it claer to all of you whoo didn't, I think THEY meant the native Americans, the hooka-hey, cherokee, apache, such... lol

And they're all dead.  I'm a living time-space paradox being 1/4 Cherokee.

Back on topic: Bungee entertainment's selling Halo t-shirts for $19.99. $5 covers materials, the rest goes to the Red Cross.  This has a couple perks:
1) You get something out of giving (which isn't really the point) even if (IMO) it is kinda crap.. and I'm not much of a Halo fan unless there's alcohol and friends involved.

2) It shows that the "slacker" gamers populous is capable of some pretty impressive acts of giving. 

An additional note, all profit from their on-line store for September's going to the same cause (which kicks ass), so it might be a good time to pester parents for Halo goodies if you haven't gotten them yet.  They encourage people to go for the t-shirts since a larger percentage goes to the Red Cross. 

We could spend all day plugging causes and our favorite charities, but this one at least is somewhat related to this community's hobbies (if somewhat vaguely).    -FIN $plug$

Let me say that the hottest period in earth since investigators are studying the frozen evidences was in the middle age.

I think there was no pollution in the middle age, and there was not "the day after tomorrow". The ecologists don't exactly know what they are demmanding... If they have been demmanding sensible things from the beginning people would be disposed to believe them, but for me, everything they say is crap.

An example (and there are more) Here in Spain they convinced the local government to stop constroying a tunnel because they must "protect a cave in the vicinity, where there is a rare race of bats". Since there is no tunnel, some people has died because the road is more dangerous that it should be. Is that ecologism? For me, to those "ecologists"... fuck you.

QuoteAlmost to forget BLACK people  You brought them from Africa as slaves is or was in the world worstest thing than that.And now they are better than you.

Uhm, to be honest - it wasn't the Americans that brought the slaves to America... That would've been us, the Dutch, and to a certain extent the Spanish/Portugese. And slavery wasn't just used in America either - but due to the fact that the US had only recently come into being - it had more need of work power - therefore a demand for slaves. But eh, trust the Dutch to make money of a situation.

QuoteOh GOD Hiroshima ATOM bomb that was your falt you done that.
Vietnam all that young men that died for what  you hated Vietnam people but you attaked them first.

The AMERICANS dropped the bomb on Hiroshima? Oh hell no, little boy, you're not going to do that. The government does not equal the people. If you say the American people atom-bombed the Japanese, I'm going to go on a limb and say your people is responsible for the ethnic cleansing in the Serbia/Croatia situation. Don't blame the people for government actions. That's just stupid.

QuoteAmerica is country where women play football(soccer) where football is not football where seats at stadiums are way too big for ordinary human where you got yourself killed just for sayin out laud the truth.

What the hell is the soccer comment supposed to mean? Women play soccer here in the Netherlands too - and we have American Football too (we actually won the European World Championship this year - so booyah). Seats in stadiums are too big for ordinary humans here too - so they'll suit most everyone instead of only the anorexic.

And getting killed for saying the truth? Man, you're from Serbia, aren't you? You should know better.

I think it's disrespectful of you to blame it on God's vengeance. If this is the God that's been worshipped for so long - that he has to punish those who 'sin', what the hell did Christ die for anyway? Christ died for 'our' sins, sins long done, sins of the future - all of humanity's sins. If God then decides to crap on our biscuits due to sins - this God of ours would be a damn liar and a cheat. Because that ain't the deal we made.

This is nature. The Tsunami was nature. Mudslides in Rumania are nature, this hurricane was nature.

And Nature can be a b*tch.

My thoughts are with the victims, I wish them the best.

QuoteAlmost to forget BLACK people  You brought them from Africa as slaves is or was in the world worstest thing than that.And now they are better than you.

This is one thing that has always bugged me ... why is America singled out as the 'bad guy' for having slavery when it's a practice that has existed in most cultures, at some point, since the dawn of time?  It's hyprocritical.

And if, by "better than you" you mean blacks are better than whites, you're an ignorant fool.  ALL are created equal ... I remember hearing that somewhere.

It's become so popular to say that America doesn't care about the black people in New Orleans and that George Bush doesn't care about black people (as the oh so classy Kanye West blurted out on live TV - using a tragedy to further his own ignorant agenda - but that's another story).

George Bush doesn't care about poor people.  The color of their skin doesn't matter.  As Bill Mahr so elloquently put it, "He doesn't understand why these people didn't just grab a case of bottled spring water, get in their range rovers, and go to their summer homes to weather this storm."

And when you lump all white Americans into a "racist" category you're doing more damage than the vast minority of white Americans, who are actually racist, could ever do.

QuoteOh GOD Hiroshima ATOM bomb that was your falt you done that.

Good lord ... did you actually think before spitting this one out?

The Hiroshima bomb killed 80,000 civilians
The Nagasaki bomb killed 75,000 civilians

The dropping of these two bombs, which killed 155,000 Japsanese, was the definitive action which ended World War II.  (many more would die later as a result of radiation, but I'm talking about the initial blasts)

However, millions had already died as a result of WWII.  It had lasted for years and the fanatical Japanese (loyal to the bushido code) were simply never going to surrender.

The best option on the table for the Allied military planners (they didn't know about the atom bomb yet) was a massive invasion of Japan.  MUCH larger than the Normandy landing the year before.  They predicted (and by this point in the war they were very accurate with their predictions) that over 1 million men of the allied invasion force would die and that the number of dead Japanese (civilian AND military) would be much greater.

You may not like it but, dropping the bomb, while devestating, saved millions of lives.  It was the best option in the interests of ending the war, and keeping millions more alive.  I will believe that, and defend that, until the day I die.

Quote from: YakSpit on Sun 04/09/2005 13:52:25And they're all dead. I'm a living time-space paradox being 1/4 Cherokee.

Hello my brother!  I'm 1/8 Cherokee.   How 'bout that!

The truth?What's that?

.... People belive in what they want to belive ....

Still American people are just dolls of USA sistem.And we don't blame them.

The truth is what is important.

If you think that America is great country that is your choice.

Some people just don't know when to shut up...

Edit: Farl interjected with that while I was posting..  I'm taking no heed of the obvious sign from fate and posting anyway.

Americans killed all the Indians (assuming you're talking about the previous North American inhabitants and not India - Indians) and Americans are just dolls of the USA system.  I'm 1/5 (not 1/4.. asked me mum.  Liked the simpler explanaion better) Cherokee.   

Ergo: I'm an Undead Puppet!  Creepy.

While LJUBI has every right to respond the thread (likewise my ridiculous response in return), couldn't we avoid littering this thread concerning sympathy towards victims of a natural disaster with propoganda and name-calling?  If people want to rant like a loon, they could at least rant on topic.

It's times like these I miss DG

This may be going too far off-topic, but... 1/5? How does that work? Do you have five biological grandparents?

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sun 04/09/2005 16:25:37

QuoteAlmost to forget BLACK peopleÃ,  You brought them from Africa as slaves is or was in the world worstest thing than that.And now they are better than you.

This is one thing that has always bugged me ... why is America singled out as the 'bad guy' for having slavery when it's a practice that has existed in most cultures, at some point, since the dawn of time?Ã,  It's hyprocritical.

That, my friend would probably be because the civil war was a turning point and was therefor written in every history book. Sure they tell about slavery everywhere, but not about a fight that ended it. But it is remembered the wrong way, which is bad. Since that war, I (at least) don't recall slavery been done. Thank God for that, even though I'm not a believer...

And LJUBI you both concider that! phew. I'm actually defending America here :o

Höm, not to take sides, I just remembered, that America was in fact the last to let slavery go... Not quite something you'd expect from a "sophisticated" state...

This sucks. These days all I hear about is disasters. Of course, Katrina is the worst disaster that happened lately, but that doesn't make every disaster any less. 3 weeks ago a plane taking of from my country crashed, all 121 passengers died... Two days later, a plane of 160 crashed in Venezuela. Then a couple of days later it was a bus in Egypt. A few days later a ship sank. A more few days later it's the hurricanes... Today, I heard in the radio that another plane crashed.

So what the crap is wrong with all the accidents and everything?

LJUBI: That's just not nice. I'm from an orthodox christian country like yours and I remember that my country was always against the bombings in Serbia. But I don't believe that this thing is judgment from God. I also always get in arguments with people claiming that all americans are puppets and I actually noticed that the people claiming that are usually puppets of something (or someone) else.

Quote from: LJUBI on Sat 03/09/2005 23:32:33
You bombed Serbia!!!!
Now GOD is bombing you!!!!
Ã, 

Now, let's see. What did the Indonesians do in PUKAI and so many people died?
That's a mighty revengful God you have there is SERBIA and it's the same as mine God
Don't get me wrong, I'm Greek, I adore you people and I tottally know what you're feeling but this...
Your opinion...

I don't know much about the States.

And I'm very doubtful about anything that goes out of this country: Meaning:

90% of the movies I've seen are from the States. And most of them portaite America as... bizzare? But can you believe all they say in the movies? Or the TV. I've never been in America and I've almost never talked to an American. So, what do I know about them? I'm not sure...

Of course people tend to envy...

I bet that Albanians hate Greece a lot right now... (?)

Well about the huricane I think that we're going to see more of these natural disasters coming our way (any way, as a matter of fact). It's simple. The ice in the Poles is melting, we get more water, the sea level is rising etc. etc.

And nobody's doing nothing about it? And anyway I'm not doing anything. I'm too small to make a difference. I bet that's what everybody says, when it comes to them to make a change.

Oh. and I'm not an ecologist...

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sun 04/09/2005 16:25:37
The dropping of these two bombs, which killed 155,000 Japsanese, was the definitive action which ended World War II.Ã,  (many more would die later as a result of radiation, but I'm talking about the initial blasts)

Mmh, AFAIK the Hiroshima bomb was dropped *after* the war was already ended. And it was dropped in full conciousness of that fact...

But anyway, as this is OT, I won't dwell on this.

It's downright horrible, what happened to New Orleans.

I read an indeep article about it today, that went far deeper than those "horror-of-the-day" news you have on German tv.
Yeah, Guybrush is right, there are terrible events happening all over the world, most likely each and every day, and they're no way less important, than what happened in New Orleans.
But, we're talking about a whole city, and not just one, that's been virtually wiped out.
That isn't meant sarcastically, but I honestly thought this would rather happen to Venice before any other city I could think of!

But what is about as shocking for me is the very fact, that all the things that would lead to this destruction, already were known for several years! I read there were reports out that forecasted all of this, and they're from 3 years back!
Jesus Christ, what were the persons in charge thinking? Any of them!
As worst came to worst, it seems as if everything went wrong, that could possibly go wrong, because they weren't PREPARED for it or what!?
It's sickening me.


Oh well, sorry for the ranting...

I heard today from a Brit on the radio who just got back from N.O. that local police on a boat came up to some young women standig o the roof of a building and said "show us what you got" making obscene gestures. They refused and the police boat drove off.

Makes me proud to be part of the American world hegemony.

Quote from: Dambuilder on Mon 05/09/2005 21:20:37
Mmh, AFAIK the Hiroshima bomb was dropped *after* the war was already ended. And it was dropped in full conciousness of that fact...

Why don't you check your facts before you post looking like an idiot?

The war was definitely still going on when the US dropped the bombs. What, you think America bombed Japan after the war was over? That wouldn't even make sense! Germany had capitulated, and it was obvious that the US would defeat Japan one way or the other, but the war in the Pacific was very much raging on.

It's not quite as cut and dry as Darth makes it seem (Was the second bomb against Nagasaki really necessary? Would a demonstration of the destructive power of a nuke without loss of human life have convinced the Japanese to surrender?), but concluding the war was definitely a big motivation for using the bombs.

Quote from: Dambuilder on Mon 05/09/2005 21:20:37
Mmh, AFAIK the Hiroshima bomb was dropped *after* the war was already ended. And it was dropped in full conciousness of that fact...

Look up "facts" like that before spouting them.
Nagasaki bomb Aug 6
Hiroshima bomb Aug 9
Japanese accept terms of surrender Aug 14

Err, what Snarky said.

Why did this discussion have to end up with the Hiroshima bomb?

But shortly, Yeah, Snarky, it makes sense that the americans dropped the bomb even though the peace preparations had started (the decision to drop the bomb was more or less rushed to make it before the war would end in some other way) if you look at it as a demonstration of power. That's how politics works, sometimes.

So, just looking at official dates isn't always enough.
I will always condemn the use of atomic bombs no matter the pretexts, and I'm rather suprised that so many people still defend it. But well, we look at it differently.

Quote from: nikolasideris on Mon 05/09/2005 19:03:57

But can you believe all they say in the movies? Or the TV. I've never been in America and I've almost never talked to an American. So, what do I know about them? I'm not sure...

Of course people tend to envy...

How could we envy someone who put food on our table.

My brother signed for University of Utah he is playing basketball.And he come there to replace Andre Bogut who goes to NBA.

And we want to apologise to you all esspecially for victims.
We don't wanted to offend you.
Just wanted to say that when Americans kill, that is ok, but when they got them selfs killed on one way or another, that is bad.

QuoteIN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER

And that "ANOTHER" has been a hurricane... And you've used it without an apparently reason to say something totally out of discussion, something that in a case like this, does not help.

I am sure that you don't consider that this "americans being killed in one way or another" is good, but it seems in your post.

And now... let's flip the omelette... When Serbia was killing croatians and kossovars was ok, but when the americans bombed Serbia was bad?

Quote from: Andail on Mon 05/09/2005 21:58:28
Why did this discussion have to end up with the Hiroshima bomb?

But shortly, Yeah, Snarky, it makes sense that the americans dropped the bomb even though the peace preparations had started (the decision to drop the bomb was more or less rushed to make it before the war would end in some other way) if you look at it as a demonstration of power. That's how politics works, sometimes.

So, just looking at official dates isn't always enough.
I will always condemn the use of atomic bombs no matter the pretexts, and I'm rather suprised that so many people still defend it. But well, we look at it differently.

Why are you addressing yourself to me? I'm not the one who argued the nukes were justified. In fact, I lean towards the view that they were a war crime. However, they definitely did happen during the war. Stating otherwise it just plain ignorant.

Exactly what would have happened if the bombs hadn't been dropped is hotly disputed. Some argue the Japanese were about to surrender anyway (though even after the bombs, the Japanese Supreme Council couldn't agree to surrender, and it took the direct intervention of the Emperor to force the decision. And even after that, a military coup to prevent capitulation was attempted), while others argue that the war would have waged on for many months, with many more casualties.

Quote from: Farlander on Mon 05/09/2005 22:15:10

QuoteIN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER

And now... let's flip the omelette... When Serbia was killing croatians and kossovars was ok, but when the americans bombed Serbia was bad?

You don't know what are you saying, GOD will forgive you!!!!

Are you sure God won't bomb him?

Looks like a diverting maneuver. Was the croatian and kossovar genocide ok for you or not?

There were no genocide. We wish you belive us but if you belive your medias that are in hands of goverment that is your choice.
Kosovo was part of Serbia for more than a 10 century's.Serbian people lived peacfully with Albanians(there is no such thing as kossovar) But in one point they decide to become terorists and they killed our children rape our womens.
And when we wanted to save Serbian people form Albanian terror than the whole world was against us.
There where no genocide people die in a war a lot of serbian children lost their fathers.And more then a 300000 people where dislodged from their homes.
It's a long story and we don't know every detail but we know that serbia is probubly at the first place of refuges number in the world.


Tell us something when Serbia fights against terrorists in her own hous then it's a genocide and it's wrong.But when America fights against terrorist in Afganistan that is good ask yourself to whom you will belive.

Just don't say again things like serbians are killers.

One day Kosovo will be part of Albania and then we will cry and the whole world will celebrate.

Hope you understand truth is not what TV tell you.Truth is far beyond that.

This is end of our posts about this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are sorry for all innocent people that died in New orleans.
                                       
                                              RIP

QuoteHope you understand truth is not what TV tell you.Truth is far beyond that.

Oh my god, you're right! Truth isn't in the television! Truth comes from Random Guy on the Internetâ,,¢!Ã,  :=

You should ask yourself why the international community wasn't willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and see your side of the story. It couldn't have anything to do with the earlier genocide and ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, could it?

I realize it's difficult to accept that your nation is responsible for the worst atrocities in Europe since WWII, but snap out of the denial! Mass graves don't lie.

Quote from: Snarky on Mon 05/09/2005 21:41:35

Quote from: Dambuilder on Mon 05/09/2005 21:20:37
Mmh, AFAIK the Hiroshima bomb was dropped *after* the war was already ended. And it was dropped in full conciousness of that fact...

Why don't you check your facts before you post looking like an idiot?

What the hell is wrong with you?
Yeah, should've checked the date before posting, should've double-checked, whatever.
I'm the first to admit any mistake I made.
But you don't have to jump at me like that! Man, how old are you?

And BTW

QuoteI'm not the one who argued the nukes were justified.

I hope this one isn't aimed at me.
I never said anything like this and I never would.

Quote from: Andail on Mon 05/09/2005 21:58:28Why did this discussion have to end up with the Hiroshima bomb?

Good question :)

Quote from: Dambuilder on Tue 06/09/2005 01:36:48

QuoteI'm not the one who argued the nukes were justified.

I hope this one isn't aimed at me.
I never said anything like this and I never would.

I believe that was aimed at me!  Which is fine.  As Andail pointed out:

Quote from: Andail on Mon 05/09/2005 21:58:28... and I'm rather suprised that so many people still defend it. But well, we look at it differently.

I suppose it is just a matter of opinion.  I just think a decision that cost less than 200,000 lives (dropping the bombs) as opposed to a decision that would have cost well over 2 million lives (invasion) is the correct decision.

Anyway ... back on Topic:

Quote from: SSH on Mon 05/09/2005 21:39:59I heard today from a Brit on the radio who just got back from N.O. that local police on a boat came up to some young women standig o the roof of a building and said "show us what you got" making obscene gestures. They refused and the police boat drove off.

Yeah ... I've been hearing a few things like this too.  So disgusting.  I think ANYbody they catch doing things like this should be brought up on charges and sent to prison.  Leaving those women on the roof is, to my way of thinking, no different than attempted murder.

I've also heard that at least 2 cops have committed suicide ... the situation is so bad, that they couldn't handle it.

I would assume that many Americans (myself included) are just enraged at the federal government's [lack of a] response to this situation.

The Mississippi and Louisiana National Guard should have been mobilized days in advance of the approaching threat.  I mean that IS, after all, what the National Guard is partly for.  But no ... they are 5000 miles away fighting in Iraq???

Of course ... if you send our National Guardsmen to fight in Iraq you don't have to pay them combat pay.  You don't have to subsidize family housing for their families left behind in the states.  You don't have to properly support them (with body armour and weapons).  You don't have to pay death benefits to their families.

Yeah ... shipping out our "National" guard to fight a war is FAR cheaper and more economical.

I mean it's a good thing they are guarding our nation 5000 miles away.

LJUBI: I'm not American or European or whatever so I don't know the history of these things well enough to debate. All I have to say is... my god, just settle down. This is a thread about a natural disaster, and you get all `crazy internet weirdo` about it. Shut up, already, you know? Everyone's entitled to their opinion and all and I respect Puma's decision to leave your original post, but it's time to just settle down, have a beer, and chill already.

Se - ttle - down ! Okay? Calm down, and stay on topic. We're talking about a hurricane.

Vince: Holy crap, are you okay?! I'd been so busy thinking the typhoon was missing Shizuoka I forgot that you were right in the middle of it. I hope you and everyone you know is okay.

All my sympathies to the victims of the hurricane. There hasn't been that much about it on the news over here so I've only really been reading about how bad it was today. I wonder if the city will rebuild and get on with things, or if it really will be too devastated to continue on...? I'm sure they'll rebuild but it'll be interesting to see what kind of a city it'll be after this.

1.

Quote
...And more then a 300000 people where dislodged from their homes.
It's a long story and we don't know every detail but we know that serbia is probubly at the first place of refuges number in the world.

Congo-Kinshasa: Almost 2 000 000.
Afghanistan: 3 600 000 + 375 000 internally displaced.
Colombia: Over 2 000 000.
(Direct Quote)Sudan: The government intensified bombings against civilians and humanitarian aid. Sudan is the single largest source of total (old and new) uprooted people in the world (both refugees and internally displaced).
Eritrea-Ethiopia: 750 000 in three years.

Source: http://www.carnegieendowment.org/events/index.cfm?fa=eventDetail&id=358&

300 000 doesn't seem so high now, does it?

2.

I understand the whole deep-rooted hatred over the loss of Kosovo. Ã, Every Serbian Kinght who went to battle, 15 June 1389 (St. Vitus' Day) died fighting the Ottoman Empire. Ã, Kosovo has a certain meaning to you. Ã, However, it's just land and people. Ã, We're all human. Ã, Personally, I couldn't care less about what "nationality" I am. Ã, As long as I can live peacefully, who cares?

3.

Indians.
They prefer the name "Native Americans". Ã, India is a country, in Asia. Ã, The Sioux, Apache, Cherokee etc you refer to are not from India, ergo they are not Indians.
They are not always perceived as Evil in American films. Ã, Some tribes were more vicious than others. Ã, Actually watching the films might give you an insight into this, and stop you making just broad generalisations.
Oddly enough, they didn't live peacefully before the Europeans arrived. Ã, Tribes would fight other tribes. Ã, Much like the did in Europe centuries before.
I'm not sure what you're taught in Serbia, but I think you'll find that Native Americans are still alive and well in the USA.

4.

Slave trade.Ã,  Fine.Ã,  Slate America for having Slaves.Ã,  Just remember, they were brought over by the Europeans, who then lost the country in 1776.Ã,  America didn't invent slavery, and weren't the last to use it.

5.

Terror.Ã,  Albanian terror in Serbia.Ã,  Al Qaeda's terror on the world.Ã,  You may have dealt with it discretely.Ã,  However, the World Trade Center wasn't bombed by the same losers who hit the building in Okie, it was an international terrorist group.Ã,  It's hard not to retaliate with alerting the world to the situation.
Also, America was criticised for their actions, globally.Ã,  It's not like everyone stood by and said "Hey, it's America.Ã,  They get to do what they want".

6.

God.

You seem to mention him or her a lot in your posts. Ã, I'm Assuming it's a Christian interpretation of a Deity. Ã, Personally, I am offended by you forcing you religious beliefs upon me. Ã, I don't post message after message, telling what you should and shouldn't believe. Ã, I would appreciate it I you didn't do the same to me.

If you really are that bothered by religion, then I suggest you voice those concerns in a religious forum, and not one based around a game making engine. Ã, I'm sure you wouldn't like someone telling you how your belief system is wrong and that you should follow a different path..
..That's as far as I'm willing to enter into a Religious debate right now.

Before ranting away on various subjects that you think you're correct with, I'd suggest doing a little research into each point first. Just to make yourself a little more credible.



To Vince and any others involved.Ã,  I hope everything's Okay.Ã,  Anything that isn't Okay, I hoped it's insured.Ã,  Good Luck.

In response to Kinky's comment:
London's Blitz gave us a chance to build more modern buildings, and rescape the city.Ã,  New Orleans has that opportunity now too.Ã,  I too am interested in what they'll do to it during the rebuild.

Kinoko & Iqu: Don't worry about me.  Okinawans barely blink at typhoons.  We literally get a typhoon a week around here.  We're up to our kneepits in 'em.  (Between August and December last year, we were hit by eighteen.)  Okinawa, however, unlike New Orleans (partially thanks to certain budget cuts), is built to withstand this kind of barrage.  Here, the only typhoon preparations we have are taking our plants inside.



And to the LJUBI twins (possibly triplets?) and anyone else who believes in their so-called "god":

You are going to hell.  I'm sorry to say it but it's true.  You are going to hell unless you imediately change your ways and convert to the one true religion.  Let him reach out and touch you with His Noodly Appendage (http://www.venganza.org/) and you will truly know God.

Furthermore, your "god" did not send the hurricane.  It is known by followers of the one true religion that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s.  For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

(http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg)

I think, beyond a reasonable doubt, I have proved my point (unless any of you FSM-less heathens have a chart) and we can therefore lay to rest the whole religious issue.

P.S. Aaarrrrrrrr!

Quote from: Fuzzpilz on Mon 05/09/2005 14:15:20
This may be going too far off-topic, but... 1/5? How does that work? Do you have five biological grandparents?

Rounding.  My mother being 1/8 and father being 1/16 =3/16, pretty close to 1/5.  Damn you for pulling me off topic again.  Oh, and Vince . . . utterly brilliant.

On atomic bombs: I abhor being a country that was the first and only (thus far) to use them against another country.  However, the loss of life was theoretically less than it would've been in a war theater scenario and it did one great thing - it showed the world what they (not the US, the bombs) could do.  If we hadn't, some other nation would've been the first to test them.  Japan's now prosperous in the world economy.  I shudder to think what might've happened if our initial nuking took place in a major high-population city (like Hong Kong).  I wouldn't have been able to make the decision to drop 'em but I can't argue that the decision was the utterly incorrect one, there's not enough evidence not based upon a "what if" scenario.

On Native Americans: The name's ridiculous.  Current evolutionary theory and even most creationist theory demonstrates that the "Native Americans" were immigrants in a not too distant past (talking circa 1000 vs. 10,000 years here).  The only major group that disagrees are the Mormons, but they're insane.  I have to grant that Native American is less silly than Indian, but I'd assume the preference would be Cherokee or Mewok.  After all, the French would throw a shit-fit if we only called them Native Europeans. 

On New Orleans:  The response is horrible.  The FEMA director is an idiot and has been less well-informed than the average internet user.  Our resources being occupied overseas is utter BS, but it'll have worse results in a few months: I can well imagine the administration using this as an example: "We need troops overseas, but also need them at home.  Just look at the response to New Orleans." This'll be used to boost military numbers and spending, and potentially to institute a draft.

Every day, I read/see something on the internet that makes my tiring day at work teaching little noisy b... er, angels... worth it. Vince, thank you. You made the cut today :)

Heck, and now I know that the answer to peace on earth TRULY IS pirates.

And I'd die to meet those remaining 17 pirates.
Or would I??

Quote from: Andail on Mon 05/09/2005 21:58:28

I will always condemn the use of atomic bombs no matter the pretexts, and I'm rather suprised that so many people still defend it. But well, we look at it differently.

There was an interesting discussion on the bomb on Radio 4 recently, it beign 60th anniversary and all, and there was a senior Japanese ex-diplomat on the program too. All of the pundits on the programme agreed that the death of the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was terrible, but also agreed that it plaed in comparison to the Tokyo fire bombings and the potential cost of an invasion of Japan. Also they agreeed that if the bomb hadn't been dropped on japan, it was far more liekly to have been used at some later date.... which might have incuded mutually assured destruction. So on balance, it probably did save lives. Potentially the whople human race.

Snarky, sorry, I sort of read your post out of context.

Anyhow.
I have a hard time understanding how something terrible can be justified by saying "otherwise we'd have done something even worse".
Why go to these extreme lengths? The japanese hit pearl harbour, sure, a sneak attack with disastrous results, but it was still a military base, with a few thousand casualties (I haven't looked up this figure, so don't come down on me too hard on that one).
But an atomic bomb? I think you need to use your imagination in order to understand what it must have been like. I don't think people of today, be it even japanese, can excuse or justify this act. It would be just cynism. We were not there, and you cannot trade other people's lives as if they were collectors cards.

Darth, your million-casualties-alternative is just a hypothesis, and not even a widely accepted such, at least not by historians I've spoken to.
The japanese had no reasons to continue the war on their own, especially not with the red army approaching - and even surrounding - them. Many historians claim that the americans dropped the bomb so that Japan would offically surrender to them, and them alone, and not to the soviet union, or just simply sign a peace treaty.
As I said, their preparations for peace were in progress.

Then again, I'm perfectly aware that the allied bombings of many german cities were astrocities of an almost equal magnitude, so don't think I'm singling out americans (I'm talking about the phosphor-bomb raides which were carried out more or less after the end of the war, which completely ruined many german cities and killed an enormous amount of civilians).
(And don't even get me started on the cowardness of Sweden during this time.)

Anyhow, acts of revenge tend to almost always be overkills.
The atomic bomb was a hasty decision, not necessary for the time being, and not justifiable in retrospect.

Mmm...

Sorry Petter... But the japs did not stop the military actions in Pearl Harbour.

Anyway if there's something to blame in those latest days of war it was the Jap military government, who received an untimatum the 4th (and the bomb on 6th day  was another ultimatum itself) But they wanted to go on with the war even the 10th. Crazy. Hiro Hito was cool... Pitty he was just a decorative figure before and during the war.

The Soviet Union declared war on Japan AT THE REQUEST of the western powers Andail, which would make an action designed to ensure a surrender to the US alone absurd.


And of course it's logical that Japan would have no reason to continue fighting.

It was also logical that an attack on Pearl Harbour would lead to a war that Japan would never win, and that they knew this when they attacked.

Bushido isn't logical. AS a matter of fact, it's completely moronic.

Whilst segments of the power structure in Japan were preparing for peace, it is a full and possible chance that they would no have suceeded against the die hards. And American troops were already facing Kamikaze pilots, as well as finding the bodies of the thousands of civilian suicides in Okinawa and other places. based on that, would you think they were surrender reasonably?

Was the right decision made? We don't know now after 60 years of hindsight (I'm not foolish enought to have a strong opinion as to which option would have had greater deaths), I fail to see that the Americans were in a great position to make a decision, but they made one, which shouldn't be judged with exceptionally simple moral abolutism. There is no morality in war.


on a side note Yak, what do you think of the Canadianism "First Nations"?

Let my add to this, Las Naranjas, that the great Japanese Admiral Yamato told that the only way to win the war would have been necessary "A sudden strike for sinking the carriers of the US pacific fleet, otherwise, a year of great victories will follow, and then some bad years to the final defeat by the american naval superiority".

So, Yamato knew on September the 8th in 1941 that Japan was going to lose the war in 1944 or 45. There were no carriers in Pearl Harbour, since they were making maneuvers.

Yamato was in the first line of fire in a war he knew he was going to lose. That was admirable. The men who decided to go on with the war on August the 7th, putting civilians in the first line of fire were cowards, shame on them.

Quote from: Andail on Tue 06/09/2005 08:08:16
And I'd die to meet those remaining 17 pirates.
Or would I??

A friend of mine has done just that (for a magazine article) - I think there were more than 17 of them :)
http://seb.brunel.free.fr/indonesie/index.htm
It's in French but there are pretty pictures.

I don't think it's foolish to have an opinion, nor do I find it hard to apply rather simple moral standards even in wars.
Even if Soviet was prompted to declare war on Japan, I have no problems seeing that USA still wanted the psychological effect of ending the war in this demonstrative and very forceful manner.

Back to the morality; you're responsible for the actions you make, when you make them. If you make a decision which leads to hundreds of thousands of civilians melting to death in the worst agonies humans can possibly experience, you will have to answer to that, not to what could have happened otherwise.

If a person shoots my mother to death, I can't go and torch their house down, and claim "we would probably have fought over this forever, and now I put a definite end to it, so I probably saved lives for both our families." 
I would be responsible for the arson, and for only that, and their lives would be on my conscience.

Oh hey, let's all go and donate something to the Red Cross! IÃ, bet this would achieve more than driving this thread further into off-topic land. Arr! :=

Quote from: Las Naranjas on Tue 06/09/2005 13:24:04
on a side note Yak, what do you think of the Canadianism "First Nations"?

While the doctrine (and primarily the organization) does a lot to educate its students concerning theory of North American population and cultural development, it seems rather flawed to me in that it proposes belief in the mythical (or at least rather hypothetical) idea that life could've originated in the US.  Maybe it's the fact that I've read up on Mormonism, but it seems an egocentric proposal seeking to bend facts in order to support its vain conclusions.  Despite the pride of the European cultures, the most logical theory is that life originated in a continent of darker-skinned peoples in the neighborhood of Northern Africa or the South Mediterranean (hence the origin-coordinate oriented name it acquired later). 

It seems every major people has some theory that their race was the first.   The Pangean continental drift theory or at least the land-bridge theory seem far more realistic, particularly given the cultural development and external features acquired by the North American settlers.  I find it sad how little is known about the varied cultures from the North American contient and worse still that little is commonly known beyond stereotypes of peyote-smoking, feather-wearing, and the dichotomy of their reputation (bad guys v. good guys).   

Much like the concept of the "Noble Savage" which arose out of enamoration of "cultured" peoples with the victimized American settlers; it's more likely to bring more scorn and ignorance and the whimsical theories it carries with it are discarded.    Alright....   way off topic..  just an interesting subject for me.  I suppose it could've been a PM, but it's at least less caustic than some of the Atomic discussion mutations.

I was reading only last night about the Anasazi in the South West, as well as other civilisations that have destroyed themselves through ecological damage, and what struck me is how completely and utterly alike to Europeans they must have been. Humans are all the same!

But I also think about the fact that a variety of European cultures keep in their mythology the fact that they are from somewhere else. The old testament talks about Abraham coming from the east into the holy land. The old celtic myths in Britain mentioned first the little people and then humans coming to Britain from Europe, and an island of origin is an occuring motif in Polynesian folklore.

Then shintoism sought to find that the Japanese had always been in Japan, and always with the emperor, even with the Ainu complicating matters.

I'm not going anywhere with this, but the important thing is that I agree that implying that native peoples weren't murderers and ecological disasters like the rest of it is a continuation of the noble savage condescension.

Quote from: Las Naranjas on Tue 06/09/2005 13:24:04Was the right decision made? We don't know now after 60 years of hindsight (I'm not foolish enought to have a strong opinion as to which option would have had greater deaths), I fail to see that the Americans were in a great position to make a decision, but they made one, which shouldn't be judged with exceptionally simple moral abolutism. There is no morality in war.

Are you calling me foolish?

Let's look at some of the Island Hopping campaigns that led up to the eventual invasion of mainland Japan:

The Battle for Guadacanal (7 august 1942)
American deaths: 1,500
Japanese deaths: 15,000 KIA (9,000 more from malaria)

The Battle on Tarawa (21 november 1942)
American deaths: 1,300
Japanese deaths: 4,700 (only 17 survived)

The Battle of Saipan (15 june 1944)
American deaths: 3,500
Japanese deaths: 21,000 KIA (8,000 suicides)

The Battle of Iowa Jima (19 february 1945)
American deaths: almost 7,000
Japanese deaths: almost 21,000

Now these are just a few of the many, many more islands that were taken on the road to Tokyo in the Pacific theater.  And ALL of these islands were much smaller and much less populated/fortified than mainland Japan.

If there were that many casualties on small little islands, it's only logical to assume that casualities on a march larger,  much more heavily defended island would dwarf all previous D-Days in the Pacific.

Will we ever know, with any certainty, what the outcome would have been had we invaded rather than dropping the bomb?  No.  We can only speculate.  I would say, given the statistics of the war up until that point (particualarly in the Pacific theater) that there's more evidence which suggests an allied invasion of Japan would have been FAR more costly than dropping the bombs.

My belief that the dropping of the bombs saved lives is no more foolish than anybody claiming the opposite.

Should it not be the goal of the participants in a war to win that war with as few casualities as possible?  Obviously, yes, it should.

The Japanese started the war.  We ended it.  They made it our decision.

To quote Gene Hackman in Crimson Tide:  "By all means, drop that fucker ... twice!"

Was dropping the bomb ... twice, really the only alternative to a full-scale invasion, though? There seems to be a possibility, at least, that the Japanese could have been convinced to surrender within a few weeks by the Soviet entry into the war and a demonstration of the nuke that didn't involve killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. Certainly many people thought so at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Opposition_to_use_of_atomic_bombs), and it has been argued by many historians since then.

I do agree that it's morally insufficient to refuse to consider the consequences of not using the bombs, though. Yes, the American leadership are responsible for the people they killed, but if they had decided to not use the bombs and ten times as many people had died because of it, they would have been responsible for that, too. In war time, generals routinely make decisions to sacrifice some lives to save others. There's simply no way around that. People die in war no matter what you do, and the best you can hope for is to minimize the number, even if that means sacrificing the few (or, in this case, the not so few) in order to save the many.

Darth, if you read what I'm saying, I'm largely supporting you arguments, but I do think this is one of the greatest historical ambiguities and "what ifs" we can think of. Great for debate, but a STRONG opinion [as opposed to a measured one], like any strong opinion where hypothesis is involved, is foolish.

Quote from: Las Naranjas on Wed 07/09/2005 00:58:39Darth, if you read what I'm saying, I'm largely supporting you arguments, but I do think this is one of the greatest historical ambiguities and "what ifs" we can think of. Great for debate, but a STRONG opinion [as opposed to a measured one], like any strong opinion where hypothesis is involved, is foolish.

Roger that!  I think I just misunderstood you.  No worries.

About the hurricane ...

I heard today that there were 3 Walmart trucks full of bottled water and a Coast Guard chopper with fuel (for generators and the like) that were trying to deliver to the area around New Orleans and that FEMA, for whatever reason, turned them away.

This seems a little far fetched to me ... it was on Air America.

I also heard today that they are letting people back to their homes, in some areas, but they must then leave again by Sunday.  That most of the houses are a total loss.  As is the case with most of the buildings.  That the city is a total loss (except for the slightly elevated French Quarter).

I still haven't heard any excuse from the White House explaining the delay in their response to this.

QuoteThere is no morality in war.

A moral examination of actions and consequences of a given war. Morality while in the proccess of war, being involved in a war. Not the same thing. Andail is making moral judgements on this historical situation you're discussing, and ( I read your above quoted reply as meaning ) that morality is 'innaplicable' during war. I really don't see the problem with discussing various viewpoints about a historical situation, and how they fit in in a moral context. If you're saying that during a war, people step aside of their own ( usually absolute) ethics ( christian, in this case, where 'every life is sacred') and into the realm of utilitarian 'I must make the choice that will mean the loss of less lives as possible' morality, then say it. That's still an ethical standpoint, and can be discussed.

You've made a highly ambiguous comment, and for one against generalized and simplifed claims...

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 07/09/2005 01:43:22
I heard today that there were 3 Walmart trucks full of bottled water and a Coast Guard chopper with fuel (for generators and the like) that were trying to deliver to the area around New Orleans and that FEMA, for whatever reason, turned them away.

This seems a little far fetched to me ... it was on Air America.

"Sir, they were told like me, every single day, 'The
cavalry's coming,' on a federal level, 'The cavalry's coming, the
cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming.'Ã,  I have just begun to hear the
hoofs of the cavalry.Ã,  The cavalry's still not here yet, but I've begun
to hear the hoofs, and we're almost a week out.

"Let me give you just three quick examples.Ã,  We had Wal-Mart deliver
three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water.Ã,  FEMA turned them back.Ã, 
They said we didn't need them.Ã,  This was a week ago.Ã,  FEMA--we had 1,000
gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish.Ã,  The
Coast Guard said, 'Come get the fuel right away.'Ã,  When we got there
with our trucks, they got a word.Ã,  'FEMA says don't give you the fuel.'Ã, 
Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency
communication lines.Ã,  They cut them without notice.Ã,  Our sheriff, Harry
Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our
line and says, 'No one is getting near these lines.'Ã,  Sheriff Harry Lee
said that if America--American government would have responded like
Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis."

-- Aaron Broussard, Jefferson Parish President

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4911

I just got back from a FEMA detainment camp (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread167902/pg1)

Disgusting.

Mind you, this is a stupid conspiracy site I normally laugh at but there are pictures and that is a real place which he is accurately describing. There's another camp being set up in Camp Gruber, Oklahoma (a basic training camp for the armed forces) near my hometown and I'm sure it'll be similarly set up.. they kept 20k Germans there captured from the African desert in WWII.

I guess I could go see, if I feel like throwing up.

The Australian government has been criticised here because consular officials in the US hadn't done much to find missing Australians in the city.

The government said it was because the consular officials had been denied access to the New Orleans area, on the basis that it wold make things more chaotic.

In the mean time, Australian television crews found an picked up Australian survivors.

Now, are TV crews less chaotic then diplomats? Would letting in diplomats be a blow to national machismo? Is the Australian government bullshitting.

Basically, what the hell is going on here?

Thanks for that, LN. It's nice to hear what's happening in the Aussie news. If that's true... *sniff* makes me feel proud.

Moore again.

QuoteFriends,

There is much to be said and done about the manmade annihilation of New Orleans, caused NOT by a hurricane but by the very specific decisions made by the Bush administration in the past four and a half years. Do not listen to anyone who says we can discuss all this later. No, we can't. Our country is in an immediate state of vulnerability. More hurricanes, wars, and other disasters are on the way, and a lazy bunch of self-satisfied lunatics are still running the show.

So, in the next few days, I will write to you about what must be done about Bush and Co.

But today I want you to join with me in bypassing the colossally inept and incompetent Bush administration and get help DIRECTLY to the people of the New Orleans area -- right now.

A lot of you have written me to ask what you can do. Many don't know who to trust. Many want to do more than write a check. You are right to think that writing checks to relief agencies will not get water and aid to people in the next 48 hours. Checks will be needed later and can be written later.

I have a way, though, for each and every one of us to do something today that can affect people's lives TODAY.

For the past few days I've been working with a group that, I guarantee you, will get direct aid to the people who need it most.

Cindy Sheehan, the brave woman who dared to challenge Mr. Bush at his summer home, has now sent her Camp Casey from in front of Bush's ranch to the outskirts of New Orleans. The Veterans for Peace have taken all the equipment and staff of volunteers and set up camp in Covington, Louisiana, on the shores of Lake Pontchartrain. They are accepting materials and personally distributing them to those in need.

This is where we come in. We need to ship supplies to them immediately. Today they need the following:

Paper plates, paper towels, toilet paper, baby diapers, baby wipes, baby formula, Pedialyte, baby items in general, powder, lotion, handy wipes, sterile gloves, electrolytes, LARGE cans of veggies, school supplies, and anything else to lift people's spirits.

You can ship these items by following the instructions on VFPRoadTrips.org. Or you can deliver them there in person. The roads to Covington are open. Here's how to get there. You can drop them off or you can stay and participate (if you stay, you'll be camping so bring your own tent and gear and mosquito spray).

If you can't ship these items or go there in person, then go to VFPRoadTrips.org and make an immediate donation through PayPal. Camp Casey-Covington will have immediate access to this cash and can buy the items themselves from stores that are open in Louisiana (all donations to Veterans for Peace, are tax deductible).

Each day I will post up-to-the minute information as to what is needed and the progress Camp Casey is making. Please visit MichaelMoore.com often and do what you can to help.

Many other groups are also doing good work. MoveOn.org has set up a system for people to offer rooms in their homes to the survivors.

There is no time to waste. People are suffering and dying. Each of us can do something. There is no other alternative.

Thank you in advance for your help. Tomorrow, we will take care of the other work we need to do about the ideologically hamstrung incompetents in charge.

Yours,
Michael Moore
Mike@MichaelMoore.com
MichaelMoore.com

EDIT - Oh, here are the links:

http://www.vfproadtrips.org

How to get there: http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&un=m&cl=EN&ct=NA&rsres=1&1a=&1c=&1s=&1z=&2a=1115+West+28th+Avenue&2c=Covington&2s=LA&2z=

Donation through paypal: http://www.vfproadtrips.org/#donation

Offer rooms to survivors: http://www.hurricanehousing.org/

Well, since I sort of became the "Moore spokesperson" in this 'ere forums, I thought I might as well keep going.

QuoteFriends,

Last week I closed my New York production office and sent my staff down to New Orleans to set up our own relief effort. I asked all of you to help me by sending food, materials and cash to the emergency relief center we helped set up on the shores of Lake Pontchartrain with the Veterans for Peace. We did this when the government was doing nothing and the Red Cross was still trying to get it together. Every day, every minute was critical. People were dying, poor people, black people, left like so much trash in the street. I wanted to find a way to get aid in there immediately.

I hooked up with the Vietnam veterans and Iraqi war vets (Veterans for Peace) who were organizing a guerilla, grass-roots relief effort. They were the same group that had set up Cindy Sheehan's camp in Crawford and now they had moved Camp Casey to Louisiana.

I have good news and horrible news to report. First, your response to my appeal letter was overwhelming. Within a few days, a half-million dollars was sent in through my website to fund our relief effort. This money was immediately used to buy generators, food, water, a mobile medical van, tents, satellite phones, etc.

Others of you began shipping supplies to our encampment. People in communities all over the country started organizing truck caravans to us in Louisiana. Twenty-two trucks from southern California alone have already arrived. A semi-truck from Chicago delivered ten tons of food. A group of friends in New Jersey got two 24 foot trucks, got their community to load them up with goods, and arrived in Covington tonight. Fifteen iMacs are inbound from California. One man gave us his pick-up truck and another donated truck is en route from Houston.

Your response to my appeal has been nothing short of miraculous. And it has saved many, many lives.

A number of you decided to just get in your cars and drive to our camp to volunteer to help. We now have had 150 volunteers here doing the work that needs to be done. Last night they unloaded twenty tons of food from a tractor trailer in under two hours. Each day more volunteers arrive. Everyone is sleeping on the ground or in tents. It is a remarkable sight. Thank you, all of you, for responding. I will never forget this outpouring of generosity to those forgotten by our own government.

My staff and the vets spend their 18-hour days delivering food and water throughout the city of New Orleans and the surrounding areas. What they have seen is appalling. I have asked them to post their daily diaries on my website (www.michaelmoore.com) along with accompanying photos and video so you can learn what is really going on. What the media is showing you is NOT the whole story. It is much, much worse and there is still little being done to bring help to those who need it.

Our group has visited many outlying towns and villages in Mississippi and Louisiana, places the Red Cross and FEMA haven't visited in over a week. Often our volunteers are the first relief any of these people have seen. They have no food, water or electricity. People die every day. There are no TV cameras recording this. They have started to report the spin and PR put out by the White House, the happy news that often isn't true ("Everyone gets 2,000 dollars!").

The truth is that there are dead bodies everywhere and no one is picking them up. My crew reports that in most areas there is no FEMA presence, and very little Red Cross. It's been over two weeks since the hurricane and there is simply not much being done. At this point, would you call this situation incompetence or a purposeful refusal to get real help down there?

That's why we decided not to wait. And we are so grateful to all of you who have joined us. The Veterans for Peace and my staff aren't leaving (and that's why we are hoping those of you who can't get to Covington will make it to the Veterans for Peace co-sponsored anti-war demonstration in DC on September 24: www.unitedforpeace.org.)

If you want to help, here's what we need in Covington right now:

Cleaning Supplies (glass cleaner, bleach, disinfectant, etc.)
Aspirin and other basic over the counter drugs.
Bottled Water
Canned Goods
Hygiene Supplies
Baby Supplies - Baby Food Formula, diapers #4, #5, Wipes, Pedialyte
Sterile Gloves
Batteries - All kinds, from AA to watch and hearing aid batteries.
Volunteers with trucks and cars
Self contained kitchens with generators, utensils, workers

Consider sending supplies in reusable containers. List the contents on the outside of the package so the folks in the warehouse can easily sort the items.

Clothes are not needed. If you go, keep in mind that you MUST be self-sufficient. Bring a tent and a sleeping bag. People are driving to Covington from across the country and often have extra room in their cars for you or for an extra box of supplies. For more information, go to the Veterans for Peace message board: www.vfproadtrips.org/katrina/.

Send supplies via UPS to:
Veterans for Peace
Omni Storage
74145 Hwy. 25
Covington LA

Thanks again for funding and supporting our relief efforts. It has been a bright spot in this otherwise shameful month.

Yours,
Michael Moore
mike@michaelmoore.com
www.michaelmoore.com