I need advice on some MLM thing

[Czar]

Hey all.

I'm planning on getting into a Multi Level Marketing thing. I mean the one where you send 5 bucks to the person on the top of a 5 e-mail list and in about a month, if everything goes as planned you should get 15 000 bucks. It sounds very naive I know, but the plan convinced me and in life I'm usually an optimist so I want to try it out.

The original plan I uploaded on <link censored> so you can check it out if you're interested. The OP also is made to work on PayPal, but PayPal doesn't support my country (or many others for that fact) so I want to try the same thing, only with Moneybookers.

That's it for now, gotta run.
I just want to know if anybody has EVER tried this and tell me his experience, and I want to know what you personally think about all of this.

Peace.

[Becky]

It's a scam.  Anything that says "Let me assure you that this is a LEGITIMATE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY, a perfectly legal moneymaking enterprise." is dodgy.

[MrColossal]

http://skepdic.com/mlm.html

a nice article about it.

Advice, don't do it, get a real job!

[scotch]

Do it if you want... it seems some people will never be convinced this is a bad idea until they try it, and at least this lesson will only cost 25 dollars.

The fact is that mathematically it just can't work for long, so you won't make much, or any money unless you're very near the top of the tree. If you still think you can make money perhaps you'll be turned off by realising that even if you do make some money (and you won't), you're basically working for someone that is scamming the vulnerable?

The fact is that at the bottom of the "multi level marketting" structure, there will be people waiting for their money. As more people take part the number of people waiting for money increases geometrically. A lot of the people that take part in scams like this are desperate, poor, naive, etc. And by perpetuating it you're directly responsible for an ever increasing branch of that. When it all fizzles out the majority of the money you are meant to have will be taken from those people that have been ripped off. I wouldn't want that money...

I'm going to censor the blog link because it makes it look like you've already taken part in it, and want to sucker more people

[Andail]

I actually didn't think people still believed in those pyramid schemes. I think one of the reasons is that people who fall for them - and end up with wasted money and nothing in return - hesitate to testify in order to save their pride and dignity.

[Czar]

Those links provide realistic information, but it seems to me only for the schemes where you put in a lot of money and are very risky.

But if I put only 5 bucks in it (more realistically 10 or 15 considering all the fees), and have e-mails of 4 my friends, and i put myself last and follow the procedure I think it would work.

The pyramid should look something like this.

    I give the e-mail to 5 others
      each 5 to 5 others = 25
    each of 25, to 5 other = 125
  each of 125, to 5 other  = 625
each of 625, to 5 other = 3 125
-------------------------------------------
3 125*5= 15 000 money


So you see the numbers involved, and the thing is I don't think it's impossible to find 5 other people on the net willing to cooperate.

At first I'll be on the bottom of the list, but that is how it works. I believe that I can 5 find other 5 persons to send the message further and I believe each one of the can find at least 5 more.

It sounds very bright and I think it should sound like that so it would bring other people in.

The most important thing is, why should anybody not be willing to put their 5 bucks in the pot, it's a very humorous amount.3 beers in my town's typical cafe/bar.

It's the 5 bucks that convinced me and that can convince other, and it's the 5 bucks that can make this thing work.

Okay, I'm ready for your shutdown.

[Czar]

Also, I already have a real job.

[scotch]

You don't care about all the people down the pyramid that will be ripped off because of you forwarding this? So what if it's only $15 each... you're still effectively tricking a whole lot of people into giving you that, if you make $15,000.

The only reason you can feel like you aren't scamming someone is because the people that give up and take a loss (assuming this goes "well") will be a few levels down and you don't talk to them directly. Of course it's more likely that you're one of the people that will end up not being able to continue the chain, and the people you sent money to will successfully rip you off.

Haha there are fees? :| Someone should arrest whoever those get sent to, this kind of scam is illegal in many countries.

[Darth Mandarb]

I had a buddy a few years back that fell for this ...   

The "theory" of how it works is very convincing and seems full-proof I know, but trust me buddy, don't do it!  You won't see a dime in return.

There are many (many) other ways to make money on the 'net.  For example; www.tattoo-spot.com is a site I put up about a year ago.  That site alone makes more than 1,000 USD / month for me and I haven't touched it in over a year.  It just sits out there earning day after day.  And it's just one of many I have floating out there.

I don't know if it's something you can do in your country ... but my point was simply that there are many ways to earn money on the side (aside from your real job ) without throwing money into a pyramid scheme!

[modgeulator]

Wow that sounds awesome! Just imagine how much money you could make if you invested a few thousand into it!! 

[Czar]

The fees are for the bank transactions. No worry there.

What you are saying, scotch, is possible. The chain could get broken, but ripping someone off is not how I look at it, nor should the person entering the chain.
I'm not stealing money from anyone, if the person doesn't want to join, then fine, don't.
The only way you can get "ripped off" is not to do your homework.
You must send a lot of e-mails, and there are even sites that would give you e-mails for your money.

Well, gotta hurry, my real job is waiting.

[ildu]

All I can say is that I'm really surprised people still fall for pyramid schemes. Isn't it general knowledge by now that they're a scam?

[vict0r]

This is not a scam!

[makri]

I don't know what the original link was, but your standard pyramid scheme is illegal in pretty much every country. It's not a MLM if there isn't a product and most of the potential income come from honest sales. That being said, even legal MLMs are generally immoral as rarely more than 1% of the participants ever make any profit.

There's many other illegal ways to get some money. Mug someone, for example. It'll also be many thousands times more likely to yield profit than a pyramid scheme.


Now, to the mathematics of this specific moneymaking machine. You say it's not difficult to get 5 people to go along with this. You might be right, you might be wrong. But this trend to continue on multiple levels is quite unlikely.

Let's assume, even for argument's sake,  that the person who started this has just now made the 15k, so you're on the 6th level of the pyramid. There's about 3900 people in the whole pyramid, and 3125 of them are in the same level than you. For you and the others on the level 6 to get their money, 12 million new people have to be recruited. For all of them to get paid, 38 billion people need to be recruited.

The last time I checked, world population was at 6.6 billion. About 1 billion have internet.


Now to the tricky bit: If it was really that easy to find 5 people to go along with this, it should be just as easy for everyone else. And the next thing you notice, the world ran out of people. In reality the participation percentage on these very basic kind of pyramids is very low these days, as they have bad rep and people are smart enough to make the calculations. 10% would be very optimistic. That means that in order to get 12 million people in, 120 million needs to be contacted (by your level alone!).


For what it's worth, I'll repeat: in pretty much every country in the world, participating in a pyramid scheme is illegal

[InCreator]

Easiest way to make some hard money around in Estonia is advacation.
That means, an Adventure & Vacation.

Scheme is simple:

* Find a friend with a fast car and a shovel
* Rob a bank. Or even better, jewelry store. The more loot the better! Try grabbing some millions worth of loot.
* Give the loot to a friend and let him drive off and bury it.
That was the adventure part... now...

* Get yourself arrested.
* Spend 3-4 months is a prison. Not much considering millions waiting you buried?
That was the vacation part.

Since there's not much jobs you can do to earn millions in 3-4 months, and this one doesn't need any work at all - prisons are comfty and leisure-oriented, this is quite easy money!

And since law is so damn humane here, 3-4 months is about what you get. You can always - since you're a newborn millionaire, get a GOOD lawyer to point the guilt at the bank/jewelry store, making you an innocent fool caught in insurance fraud, there's a good chance to skip prison part at all!

Well, prison part will be skipped anyway, because money is missing and you will probably spend these months in pre-investigation lockup, which is usually even nicer than jail.

Estonian securitymen don't carry guns and if you have anything to threaten them, there will be no problem. Police response time is also long enough to get your loot secured.

Ah, simple things people can't figure out. I wouldn't try same thing in US or Russia, of course...

[FSi++]

Ah, simple things people can't figure out. I wouldn't try same thing in US or Russia, of course...

In fact, I strongly advise you AGAINST trying that in Russia.

[Czar]

Okay, so the mathemathics kill everything.

Final questions; Would then making a 4 people list instead of 5 make it more realistic?
Also repeating the recepients isn't excluded, right?

[makri]

Okay, so the mathemathics kill everything.

Final questions; Would then making a 4 people list instead of 5 make it more realistic?
Also repeating the recepients isn't excluded, right?

In the end your own effort in the pyramid is somewhat irrelevant for your chances of getting the money. It's not about you, it's about the levels below you. The reason why no chain letter/pyramid scheme has ever completely run out of people on earth is that there aren't awfully many people who take the bait. If a 5-people-list scheme would have a participation rate of 20% (which would be optimistic), the pyramid would not grow exponentally as one person could get only one other below them, and so on. That would mean that for your $25+expenses investment you would get back $25.

Plus some of your friends would be annoyed since you tried to pull them into an illegal scheme with no real earning potential.


But to answer your question, in a system designed for quintuple growth for it's level depth you don't gain anything by limiting the amount of people directly under you. In a completely new pyramid, 4, 3 or 2 below you don't make much difference because for the same amount of money, you need the money to run up more levels. (which would also make initial participation more expensive). The same basic problems for pyramids would still be in effect:

1. If it would work as described, it would run out of potential participants in just a few levels
2. In reality it doesn't, because participation is very low, which means profit is only a fraction if any



What MLM companies (think Amway, Quixtar, Mary Kay etc.) really have is a same setup with some coverup products and cult like peer pressure systems to disguise the impossibility to earn money. No MLM distributor can make a living for their own sales only - the theoretical income potential comes from the recruits below, and distribution of their startup fees to the upline. In order for system like this to run, you need people underneath you who need people underneath them and so on... until it starts to sound eerily similiar to a simple chain letter. Average monthly income for average Amway (the largest MLM company in the world) distributor is $115 before expenses, which often are many times that much, making the business cost money to most participants.

[makri]

Let's tweak the pyramid to make it into a real moneymaker. Instead of 5x5 matrix, let's do a 5x10 matrix. You still only have to find 5 buddies to continue the system, but you have to pay to 10 levels above you. For the first person who actually has the 10 levels above him, it'd still only cost a mere $50. Not an enormous investment, and the system should certainly be equally plausible as the original one.

I mean, you still only need to find 5 buddies and who wouldn't be able to do that? And doubling the investment to $50 is still peanuts. The profit is sort of cool too, instead of $15,000 you'd make $61 million!


Now, if we assume that making the 61 million isn't plausible, we must also assume that the original 5x5 system wasn't plausible either. After all, we didn't change anything extremely crucial as far as individual persons stakes of joining the pyramid is concerned.


Sorry, I'm just a big fan of pyramid schemes and MLMs  :