I'm sorry to post this, but in a way, I'm not. I know that if every n00b with a modem started posting threads about their favorite movie, this would eventually become a rather lousy place to be.
That having been said, I just watched a movie that shattered me. Shattered me, for God's sake. I tremble to remember it. I'm an avid horror fan, and have watched, unflinching, THE most terrifying horror films of all time. I normally forsake the slasher movies and go with the more cerebral, deep movies that are designed to leave you with dread long after you turn off the TV. But just last night I found a movie in a dollar rack at Hasting's that I've been meaning to get for a while. I brought it home, put it in... and it ruined me. It was almost two hours long, but as soon as I finished it, I did something I've never, EVER done before... I watched it a second time through immediately. When I did, the opening scene suddenly made terrible sense to me, and it crushed me. I've seen movies about horror, but this isn't a horror movie... it's a movie about despair, and it shook me to the very fabric of my being. I've found myself getting misty-eyed at odd cinematic moments, like when Data found his cat in the wreckage of the Enterprise at the end of Generations... But I can seriously say as a non-emo adult who's very secure in his masculinity that I wept continuously throughout the entire film, both times, and today, when I tried to watch it again but found that I couldn't bring myself to. In fact, I'm having a hard time typing this as I remember it now.
I feel strange saying these things about a simple movie. Especially one that I would normally eschew ("It can't have a good, meaningful storyline! It's just a violent teen flick! What is this, some kind of cheap Red Dawn ripoff??")... But there was no way I could resist posting this about a movie that touched me so profoundly. So...
Has anyone else seen Battle Royale?
I have watched the movie and read some of the manga, still have not found time for the novel.Ã, Its my second favorite japanese movie, after Tetsuo: The Iron Man which will probably always be my favorite because its such a freaky little cyberpunk nightmare that reminds me of a cross between cronenberg and lynch with way to much caffiene.Ã,Â
I too have seen it. Though I wasn't effected nearly as hard as you were, I totally agree. It's a powerful film. Too bad the sequel loses all the qualities of the first film...
Anyway, I've only ever been able to watch bootleg versions of it. Netflix has the DVDs now, though, so I will be renting them shortly.
Battle Royale wasn't that bad!!
Call me insensitive, but I found the film to be rather light-hearted, and even humorous in some places.
As an emotionally deep film, it's rather shallow and I've seen way better films that draw me in emotionally.
Sorry, but it was kind of just a silly film :P
I can see how you found it silly. Some of the acting is piss poor. And to some the concept is just too unbelievable to be frightening. But then again, I guess the film rings true to the Japanese culture. At least that's what I hear.
It's definitely a film that couldn't be pulled of in America.
I can understand how it might be perceived as a bit silly. Especially the briefing video (the one time I laughed before I could barely hold my head up anymore), and the part at the end with the teacher's death scene (it was poorly executed, but still managed to be a bit creepy and, although he was an asshole, made me feel sorry even for him).... It IS supposed to poke fun at society. But it does it in the most terrible way imaginable. I can't even begin to express how i felt for each and every one of the students. The only character in the entire film I cared nothing about was Kiriyama, the insane one. Every single character had their own depth and complexity. I thought at first that Mitsuko, the girl who was running around killing everyone, was a totally one-dimensional character, but then, her dying words (I just didn't want to be a loser anymore) and I understood the entirety of her character. I felt bad for someone who had up till then been a homicidal maniac.
There were two scenes in the film that I found especially terrifying. First, the very introduction. When I watched the movie the second time, having realized exactly what that little girl with the bloodstained ragdoll had just undergone for 2 days, 7 hours, and 43 minutes... (shudder) I wondered what she had done to win, and how it had effected / scarred her.
The second scene that is so terrifically horrible that I can't remember the scene without a tremble in my hand was the Lighthouse Massacre. It was a little over-stylized, but it was terrifying how one moment the girls are happily eating spaghetti and the next moment become so paranoid of everyone and everything around them that they brutally murder each other.
I actually saw this movie once, and I quite enjoyed it. The sequel on the other hand was the absolutely worst movie experience I ever had. It sort of dragged down the whole concept of Battle Royal for me.
Andail is right. Absolutely under no circumstances should the second movie ever be watched by any fan of the first movie. It will leave you with a sour taste in your mouth that will taint the first movie.
I watched Battle Royale when I first moved to Japan. It was recommended to me by some of my students. It does paint a very scary picture. I liked it enough that I downloaded the entire 15 book manga and read it through. And I would recommend it to you esper. While the movie goes through the whole three day ordeal of the three main characters, the manga takes you through the game along side EVERY kid in the class. All forty or so characters have backstories that are explored, and motives and feelings while playing the game. And one by one they all get checked off the list down to the conclusion. You really get to know the whole class by reading the manga. It's the only manga that I've ever read more than a few pages of and I really enjoyed it.
I haven't read the original novel, but I know that the manga is quite different, developing the characters in a way that lends itself more to a long episodic graphic novel, and the film is like a condensed version of the novel.
Well, now I'm a bit eager to get my hands on them. Does anyone have any idea where I can obtain any Battle Royale-related goods? It seems as though my copy of the movie was, indeed, bootlegged, put in a printed DVD with a printed case and sold as a used movie to Hasting's. The quality looks like it was originally intended to be 320 x 240 blown up to full-screen size, and the subtitles are burned on so I wasn't able to read everything clearly. And I would most definitely love to obtain the manga and the novel (I found the first ten chapters of the original novel translated here (http://geocities.com/madastoads/translation.htm) in case anyone's interested, but after enjoying a taste I decided I would wait until I could obtain the whole thing. This only takes them up to the scene where Shuya is bandaging Noriko's arm). I can't find them anywhere. Hasting's also had issue 7 of the manga, used and in bad condition, for five bucks, but I didn't want to torment myself with that, either.
Esper: I have digital copies of the first 2 volumes of the manga if you want. I think my friend knows where to download them, I'll speak to him and see what happens ;)
I kiss you. :-*
I think Battle Royale is seriously over-rated and praised.
It pushes "boundries" in every possible cliched way - albiet with some artfully done sequences. I can't deny it's effects on modern action cinema, though.
Bt
Well... from reading your first post Esper, I had no idea you were talking about Battle Royale. As I had long forgotten all about the film a short time after watching it. That's not to say it's a bad film, just a very average one. But then it's not really the sort of film that would appeal to me. I don't like films where horrible and painful things happen to people. (Not counting things like where Jet Li snaps someone in half, thats not the sort of pain I'm talking about)
Take a scene from "House of wax". I wasn't watching it, but I came into the living room where my brother had it on. A guy had been turned into a wax model, all stiff.. but he was still alive. Unable to move, except for his eyes. Then someone peeled his face off, revealing the fleshy muscle underneath. and he couldnt scream in pain as he was all waxed up, and a tear came from his eye. Now that sort of thing really bothers me! Even though it's fake and ridiculous, the thought of someone possibly experiencing that really disturbs me!
My favourate film is the Back To The Future trilogy. So you can tell I wouldn't be into horror! ;)
Films are good when they leave you thinking about it long after the film ended, but not in all circumstances. I'd rather forget I saw that scene from House of wax, but when snooze-fest Sixth sense ended, that was good for making you think about everything that happened in it. Donnie Darko just made my head explode.
Battle Royale is a landmark in japanese film, not only because of it's subject matter, but of the seemingly artisticly healthy discussion it raised between Eirin and the film's director Kinji Fukasaku over the use and appropriateness of violence in modern japanese cinema.
For anyone who has read the original novel, where the setting of the story is a generic police state, the movie draws explicit parallels between the savagery of the island, and the percieved disillusion of Japan's youth.
When the film was given a restricted rating, it was Fukasaku himself who urged those below the age rating for the film to "Sneak into theatres to see my film. I made it for you."
It's an important film, not for its violence, but for attempts to show adults the frustration felt by the nation's youth.
But enough rambling...
I've loved asian cinema (Japanese, Korean, Hong Kong, China, etc) since I can remember, and I heartily recommend the following:
The work of Takashi Miike, particularly Audition, the Dead or Alive trilogy, MPD Psycho, and Fudoh.
Kinji Fukusaku's yakuza movies, particulary those from the Battles Without Honor and Humanity cycle, Graveyard of Honor, and The Triple Cross.
Chan-wook Park's Vengence trilogy (Sympathy for Mr Vengence, Old Boy, Lady Vengence).
Shinya Tsukamoto's Tetsuo movies, Hiruko the Goblin, Tokyo Fist, and Bullet Ballet.
Ryuhei Kitamura's Azumi, Azumi 2, Versus, and Sky High.
Mamoru Oshii's Avalon, and Innocence (Ghost in the Shell 2).
Tsui Hark's Peking Opera Blues, The Blade, and Zu Warriors.
Johnny To's Fulltime Killer and Heroic Trio.
Siu-Tung Ching's A Chinese Ghost Story, Wonder Seven, and New Dragon Gate Inn.
Kenji Misumi's entries in the Lone Wolf and Cub, and Zatoichi series.
Higuchinsky's, frankly astonishing, Uzamaki.
Kiyoshi Kurosawa's Kairo (Pulse).
Byung-chun Min's Natural City.
Kazuaki Kiriya's Casshern.
And, though I want too, I can't type any more.
Anything from that list will keep you (at the very least) entertained. Everything I've mentioned is available on DVD in the west and shouldn't be monsterously difficult to track down. It's also barely the tip of a fingernail on the giant hand of fantastic cinema from the east.
Most of what I've mention would be rated R, or even NC-17, in the US, and 18 in the UK.
Audition severely disturbed me. I wish I never watched it.
But, I suppose, I can see where people get off on freakish torture movies. Personally, I think they're just a shade below snuff.
Bt
Quote from: Blackthorne on Sat 03/03/2007 21:41:16
Audition severely disturbed me. I wish I never watched it.
But, I suppose, I can see where people get off on freakish torture movies. Personally, I think they're just a shade below snuff.
Hardly a freakish torture movie. But you are entitled to you opinion, of course. :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1f/Audition_film.jpg)
If you choose to dwell on it's, admittedly, coal black finale then you miss out on the underlying sadness of what is really a viciously painful love story.
LimpingFish, have you seen death trance? It is a really fun movie with Tak Sakaguchi and yuji shimomura from versus. Ã, Oh, and are you recommending both tetsuo movies? Ã, I still refuse to admit that there is more then one. Ã, that is how bad I think the second one was. Ã, great list though, it reads a lot like one of the shelves of my video collection.
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sat 03/03/2007 21:52:45
If you choose to dwell on it's, admittedly, coal black finale then you miss out on the underlying sadness of what is really a viciously painful love story.
I've heard this "defence" a MILLION times, and it's crap. Viciously painful love story? Just because some chicks taprooted in the skull doesn't give her the right to do what she does. That ain't love, or lack of it - that's a f'd human being.
The movie is intended to make you cringe, not go - aw, poor breaking heart.
Bt
(http://side-b.blogzine.jp/kazz/images/CASSHERN.jpg)
It could have been better. It dragged on, and the ending felt like an anti-climax, if I remember correctly.
Had some nice ideas, but I was disapointed overall. The box artwork looked like it would rock!
BT: Of course it's to make you cringe. How else
could you react?
Spoiler
Shigeharu is so blinded by his vision of the perfect woman that his mind blanks out all the warning signs. When key scenes are replayed at the end of the movie, we see the girl confessing things about her past. When these scenes are first shown to us, they have obviously been tainted by Shigeharu's subconcious need to perserve what he thinks he has found. True love. Even with needles in his eyelids and his feet hacked off, Asami, her neck obviously broken, is still promising him undying love. A literal scene of Shigeharu's delusion. That's what makes his story so sad.
When we confess our love for someone, and they reject us, we experience a special kind of pain. Miike takes that point and revs it to a level where the audience experiences a parallel discomfort. I goes beyond being a simple movie, and forces you to either watch or leave the theatre. Which a lot of people did.
Postmodern Boy: Alas, Death Trance has yet to reach me. But by god I'm looking foward to it. ;D
As for Tetsuo II, I'll agree that it lacks the kinetic energy of the first, but, seeing as it came to be made simply out of Tsukamoto's horror at what Hollywood-based studios offered him, it still has it's moments. A Snake of June is what
true misguided Tsukamoto looks like.
Matt: Casshern is overlong, but some of it's visuals are so striking it deserves to be seen by a wider audience. So I still recommend it. :)
Dunno, I find most asian cinema (aside from those wonderful crapfest thailand films) to be boring, trite, and generally garbage. If japanese youth is truly going through a rough time I can see why! They need some movies that aren't bizarre/freakish/stupid!
Ok, I've refrained from joining in the discussion because admittedly I don't watch a lot of Japanese movies. But that last comment just irked me. You're assuming that Japanese youth are being influenced by their movies. That's like saying American kids are violent because of the video games that they play. It's an incredibly annoying POV.
Why are Japanese (Japanese! not Asian!) movies generally seen as bizarre/freakish? Is that a case of life imitating art or art imitating life? Japanese kids are screwed up because of their pace of life, among other things. I come from a similar society, and I can tell you that I see exactly why Japanese bizarre/freakish/stupid movies are attractive. By the way - before the current trend of bizarre Japanese movies, Japan was known for its weepy romances that the Koreans have now turned into an artform.
And Blackthorne - you're definitely missing the point here. The audience that the Japanese films are targeting are, in fact, watching the movie for the story as well as the gorefest. There's a reason why Scream and other gory American slasher movies are not as popular in Japan as you'd expect. We don't watch for the torture. The torture is just a visual reflection of of mental and emotional pain, and in some cases even spiritual. The bizarre scenes are a way of exploring the fantastic, where all normal rules are suspended, and in Japan rules are pretty restrictive.
A heartfelt "Aye!" to that, auriond.
I just got done reading about the Nevada-tan murder, where an eleven year old girl who was a big fan of Battle Royale slit the throat of a twelve-year old girl in her class with a boxcutter. Now, I must say, she did not do this from watching BR. Just like everyone else, her guilt is her own, and the trouble and mental anguish which caused such a horrible event must have been pre-existant. BR shows that death and killing, even for survival, is a terrible thing with very real consequences. To quote the boy who just killed his friend (who had been driven to insanity by the fact that he was a fat, unpopular kid who would no doubt be killed off first) with a crossbow bolt to the heart: "Oh, my god! It's real! It's really for real!"
I see Asian cinema as just that: cinema. What comes out of America is a crapfest. With movies like 300, Pan's Labyrinth, etc. coming out, you wonder exactly how production companies actually came to the conclusion to make them, since American audiences would rather watch steaming piles of fecal matter like Scream and Hostel. I enjoyed the first Saw because of certain psychological elements, but most of it and it's two sequels were fetid loads of filth, just like everything their producers and those of their ilk are allowing to be made nowadays.
I'll always stand by my argument, regardless of what assholes like Jack Thompson and Billy Graham and James Dobson are saying, that Hollywood isn't trying to put ideas into the heads of our youth: our youth have the ideas already in their heads, and we feed it because it's the fashionable and moneymaking thing to do.
Japanese cinema, on the other hand... people freak out because they use cartoons for pornography and poop on each other alot. My sister refuses to allow anything from Japan to cross the screen in her house because she's sure somewhere some girl is going to be getting raped by tentacles. But we're the sick ones, in this bloody, rotten place. The Japanese might make movies we construe as being sick, but if you compare Battle Royale to any of the movies of similar genre that are out in America now, you will see that it's us who are sick. The underlying theme of all our horror movies is blood, guts, and death. The underlying message of Battle Royale is that even in the face of the worst imaginable terror there is a way of escape... there is hope. As I said earlier, the theme isn't horror. It's a sad commentary about despair, and what it can do to people... and why it doesn't need to be, and how things can change so it doesn't need to be.
They portray, as auriond said, their on-screen anguish and sorrow in the form of terrible images of torture and pain... what do you expect? Fifty years or so ago we wiped out a considerable portion of their innocent population because of the mistakes of their government. The memory of a huge number of people being simultaneously wiped from existence in a cloud of radioactive horror is as good a reason as any to portray extreme situations of horror in your cinema, and has been a fundamental part OF their cinema ever since Gojira rose out of the ocean.
I totally agree with Aurion and Esper.
Please allow me to use this term: Violence porn.
I had watched Saw II,III and Hostel. These movies had 'words'; "What can a human do to survive?" and "What if someone, who regards other people as pleasury objects, turns into another pleasury object in a different way?" (the guys had gone to that place to have fun with hot chicks, but they ended up finding theirselves on torture chairs).
But let's be honest. Was the most of the audience be able to see these words? Did these movies really intend to show us these messages? I think no.
I admit I enjoyed much watching these movies in theater, so did my friends (and the other audience), and it was because of the fact that we watched them as 'violence porn'. I wasn't shocked at all after getting out of the theater; I was drinking some wine with joy in a bar after watching Saw III.
But I could never say the same things for Audition.
Thing that really shocked me was not the torture scene in the final. How everything could turn into these mess, and how both Asami and Shigeharu STILL loved each other. I couldn't fix my mind for a while after seeing Audition. (maybe it is also because of the fact that I had an online love relationship with a Filipino girl that just looks like the actress playing as Asami; yes, I know how Japan and Philipines are different, but this didn't change the fact that I regarded Asami as her and myself as Shigeharu during the movie [and I need to note that my online girlfriend was intending to marry me and saying things like "Love me. Only love me", this still chills me out]). *cough* The reason why I would want to put Audition to another category with Saw series or Hostel is that the way how the story was told.
Now I feel curious about Battle Royale; going to see it as soon as possible.
P.S: I think "The 3 Extremes" (I hope I typed correct) should be mentioned in the Asian horror movies category , too.
QuoteThe torture is just a visual reflection of of mental and emotional pain, and in some cases even spiritual.
Riiight. I'm sure it has nothing to do with them being allowed to get away with that stuff in movies.
...and I totally
disagree with auriond and Esper. Wow!
Shut up!
Quote from: MEEEEE!!!!!! on Sun 04/03/2007 01:46:29they use cartoons for pornography and poop on each other alot.
HOW CAN YOU ARGUE WITH THAT!!!!
Hey Esper, and anyone else who wants it, here's a link to download the manga: http://www.mangaspot.com/battleroyale.php.
Quote from: auriond on Sun 04/03/2007 01:21:45
And Blackthorne - you're definitely missing the point here. The audience that the Japanese films are targeting are, in fact, watching the movie for the story as well as the gorefest. There's a reason why Scream and other gory American slasher movies are not as popular in Japan as you'd expect. We don't watch for the torture. The torture is just a visual reflection of of mental and emotional pain, and in some cases even spiritual. The bizarre scenes are a way of exploring the fantastic, where all normal rules are suspended, and in Japan rules are pretty restrictive.
I don't watch horror films for the gore - I watch films for the story. I like to be captivated by the story - be it through suspense, wit, intelligence, humour... what have you.
I agree with Prog - I find the stories trite and boring, often, in these ultra-violent movies.
It's not to say, however, that a lot of Japanese (and Asian) cinema isn't beautiful. In fact, I believe that some of the most creative DP's are working in Asian cinema.
Bt
Fair enough, Blackthorne. Each to his own - I suppose I can see why people might see how the violence is disproportionate to the drama inherent in each story. After all, I myself don't watch many Japanese horror films. Anime, on the other hand...
ProgZmax: It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they're allowed to get away with stuff like that in movies. As I said, the movie-makers push boundaries in films, and they probably feel the need to push further than what you think is necessary, because 1) they're responding to a different society and culture, and 2) Asian audiences, being mainly Buddhist and Shinto audiences, have a different view towards violence, death and the bizarre from what you might be used to.
Auriond makes an interesting point (for the second time), that the artistic freedom seemingly "enjoyed" by Japanese filmakers is borne out of society.
Kinji Fukasaku's early seventies Battles Without Honor or Humanity series is ripped straight form newspaper headlines chronicling the savage wars between Yakuza factions in post-war Japan. The films are ultra-violent for a reason, but still far behind the scenes of bloodshed witnessed on the streets of Japan's Yakuza controlled towns and districts.
Just as Martin Scorsese drew inspiration for his early work form the world of the New York mafia, so too did Fukasaku draw inspriation from their Japanese equivalent, the Yamaguchi-gumi.
On a moral or political level, in my experience, the Japanese seem to have a unique view on violence and pornography, which some see as cathartic. A japanese politician one remarked "It's the girls in the videos that keep the girls on the street safe."
Naive, and simplfied, though this remark may seem, it also seems to be correct.
That doesn't mean they give it credence above other media, or regard it on any level above what it is. But they understand it.
America laments the corruption of it's youth by violent cinema/video games/hip hop/whatever, and it's artistic culture is fast on it's way to being one of the most restrictive in the free world. Purely political scapegoating, of course, ignoring drugs/guns/disaffected minorities/a total breakdown of family structure.
As for artistic merit, well, what can I say. Hollywood currently has the artisic merit of tampon in a teacup.
To hold up the stories to such films as discussed here to be "trite" and "boring", when the pinnacle of contempory american cinema is a remake of a Hong Kong film, or the continued wholesale rape of seventies cinema, both American and European, by Hollywood's "finest", well...what can I say?
Make no mistake, "popular" cinema (indeed, popular culture) in Japan/Hong Kong/Korea is just a vacuous as in America, and they produce just as much crap.
But labelling a section of their work as "what they can get away with", as if Japanese society has itself become so morally lax and corrupted that tentacle rape and scat are passe and viewed by the populace as a whole, is the product of a misinformed opinion.
My love of Asian cinema isn't confined, or defined, by the movies I have mentioned here. Indeed, one of my favourite Asian films is rated "G", and is fit for viewing by anyone.
Just as I hold various boundery-pushing American and European filmakers in esteem, doesn't mean I limit my viewing to their work.
As a side note, as the only country the holds the dubious honour of witnessing not one but two atomic bomb detonations on it's civilian populace, I think Japanese society is pretty well adjusted.
QuoteProgZmax: It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they're allowed to get away with stuff like that in movies. As I said, the movie-makers push boundaries in films, and they probably feel the need to push further than what you think is necessary, because 1) they're responding to a different society and culture, and 2) Asian audiences, being mainly Buddhist and Shinto audiences, have a different view towards violence, death and the bizarre from what you might be used to.
Fair enough, but unlike some of you I don't see this approach as some kind of glorious statement being made but merely an attempt to shock the viewer. There have been hundreds of artists who over time retconned their own purpose behind what they did because, well, people have this odd tendency and need to interpret things that were never there (but certainly made the work more interesting!).
And Fish, don't mistake your interpretation of my views as misinformed. Your views on America (and American cinema) are well known to me, however, and therein lies an obvious bias on your part. Don't make me fry and feed you to starving kids! :=
I just want to clarify, especially for Progzy, that generally I hate the type of movies you seem to think I'm talking about. I don't want you to think I'm some kind of sicko that gets off on kids killing each other. My reaction to the movie wasn't based on the whole "oh, it's horrible so it must have a good message" thing. My brother, whom I don't even speak to anymore because of just this reason, forced me to read a couple of books and when I told him I didn't like them, he got extremely angry. "You'll never have the skill in your pinky finger to write as they have!!!" "Why?" I asked him. Turns out, it's because they were the first few prolific American writers to start using a lot of profanity in their novels. So, I'm certainly am not on board with the whole "it has to be harder and faster and badder than anything previous to be good" way of thinking.
Really, Battle Royale isn't all that bizarre or hard or freaky, and it certainly wasn't even nearly as bad as ANY American action or horror movie I've ever seen (by far), with the exception that the casualties are considerably younger. What struck me about Battle Royale as being so powerful is the way the students reacted. It was horrifically real, and terrifying, and beautiful. I recently read that the director made it because the book reminded him of when he was younger... he was drafted at the age of 15, and I read, although I can't find it again now, a specific recollection from him about loading artillery with mortar exploding all around him, and having to dive under a pile of the bodies of his fallen 9th-grade friends and classmates to survive. He didn't make the movie to make a statement, or for the sake of pushing the envelope, like Eli Roth and Quentin Tarantino tend to do... He did it because the story meant something to him, and it was a deep and profoundly moving experience for him, and he wanted to share it with people like me. If anything, the stylized violence detracted from it, not made it more enticing as everyone else seems to be saying. However, it made it hit home more. When you see a character who you've come to care about ripped apart by gunfire, especially an innocent little girl who just wants to survive to see the boy she likes, it's very painful.
It may sound lame, but I'll always remember the students who died in Battle Royale, as though they were my friends. That's how very touching and personal an experience it was for me. It may sound lame, but I wish I had been there to stop Kiriyama before he started his murder spree... I would have been a friend to Mitsuko and Yoshio so they didn't think killing was the only way to survive... I would have helped Shuya protect Noriko to the end... I would have tried to give hope to Yoji, Kazuhiko, Tomomi and Yoshimi before they commited to their suicide pacts... I would have mourned Kawada as he lay dying from his wounds. I know it may sound lame, but I've never had such a moving movie experience, and I doubt I ever will again.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 05/03/2007 05:29:42
...well, people have this odd tendency and need to interpret things that were never there (but certainly made the work more interesting!)...
*g* the old literature debate. If the author didn't intend a certain meaning, is it still valid for the audience to read that meaning into it? The official answer is yes; but I personally think it does take away a little bit of that validity, and there I agree with you.
But then that would bring it back to whether the author, or in this case the film-makers, really meant for there to be more to their movies than just shock horror. I don't think I've watched enough to comment on it, so I'll sign off here, and wonder whether I should try to watch Battle Royale even though I'm really not into extreme violence and gore. I didn't watch Kill Bill either, for the record.
It's certainly not extremely violent or gory, especially not as much as any American film of similar genre. As I said, the "shock value" in the case of Battle Royale is the age of the combatants, not what they do to each other. And, with the exception of Kiriyama, ALL the violence is portrayed as horrible, mind-numbing, terrifying, and sad. It's not cool to kill, it's something that drives the characters to anguish, despair, and insanity. Cool people in black trenchcoats aren't doing the killing, but rather frightened children with no hope or survival otherwise. When blood sprays, the characters don't bask in it, they cry. It's definitely not a movie designed to glorify senseless violence, but rather to warn against it. The only western movie I can liken it to is POSSIBLY Red Dawn, but Red Dawn isn't even a pale shadow of Battle Royale. I heartily recommend it, and the whole reason I started this thread in the first place is because I wanted people to see it and possibly share what I felt.
I dig the movie as well, but for some of the same and some differing reasons.
I can't say I enjoyed it (maybe captured by it?), for the reasons you mention. The reactions of the kids as well as the different paths they choose in the situation seemed - if not realistic - to convey a much greater depth than most horror or action filmes I've seen.
The aspect I did actually enjoy was the b-movie style of it. It was very campy and, in its own way, bitterly amusing.
It seems a bit like the Lord of the Flies story. However, LotF was written as rebuttal to the "Noble Savage" philosophy and BR was some of that, but more in keeping with story trends like about survival, resourcefulness, and what happens when character (weak or strong) battles dire circumstances. It also seemed to have a theme in keeping with "Those that fail to learn the lessons of history . . . " and a kind of, "Sins of the fathers shall be visited . . . "
I halfway want to read far too deeply into it before reminding myself how campy it is. Where LotF was more hyperbolic in the speed and severity of the children's actions, BF was more hyperbolic in the scenario, yet with more realistic reactions, I think.
I don't think you're a sicko, Esper, nor do I think that because you enjoyed the movie you are somehow wrong. Some people (my mother included) would say I have an extremely morbid sense of humor because I typically watch only horror films, and the more esoteric and shocking the better! What I'm getting at is that just because someone did not like the film does not mean they missed the point, so if Blackthorne for example didn't like the movie it doesn't mean he's culturally challenged or missing something, it just didn't do anything for him.
I've seen Audition, and although I'm normally not a squeamish person, I felt deeply compelled to pause the movie halfway through the preliminary scary stuff at the end and take a break, which I did. I had to pause it again right before Asami started Aoyama's punishment session, and I paused it once more right after
Spoiler
she cut his foot off
because I felt as though I was going to vomit. I actually stood over the toilet for about a minute, and then I flushed my face with water (don't worry; I moved to the sink first :P ). But then when I started it again, I somehow felt absolutely fine through to the end, even when she started
Spoiler
cutting his other foot off.
I'm not a horror film person at all. In fact, Audition is the only serious horror film I've seen that I can think of. (The Ring doesn't count, in my opinion. It wasn't scary at all, again in my oh so humble opinion. Maybe Ringu is scarier? I don't know.) Given that I don't watch horror movies on anything remotely close to a regular basis (why on earth was Audition my first real horror movie for crying out loud?), I'm not sure why I was so affected during the build up and then in the midst of the climax, but after the fact I felt absolutely fine. I wasn't looking over my shoulder every few moments any longer. The nausea had completely vanished. I was even able to turn all the lights off and go to sleep alone in a dark apartment with no worries. Maybe it was because my brain was trying to sort out the psychology and plot knots. In any case, I came out of it thinking, "I liked that movie, but I didn't enjoy it."
I want to see Videodrome now.
@ Progz: :-*
The Ring, I thought, was just a good movie, not a very scary one. The idea was scary, and that's what I liked about it. Being a writer myself, I love stories (which, by the way, I know I've been going on, and on, and on, and on about Battle Royale ((that was the original point of this thread after all)), but another thing that Battle Royale influenced me in is to make sure that my characters, even the very minor ones, are deep, complex, and multi-leveled, and that even the villain is someone the character understands, just like poor, lonely Kitano). The idea was, in fact, frightening. I left the theater thinking "That was a really good movie!" and then went out with some friends to the ice cream parlor. That night, though, and for a series of nights afterward, I had a hard time sleeping. Ringu is actually a bit more creepy, with more disturbing images and sounds (the towel-headed man kept appearing in my mind for weeks afterward). I was watching it with two female friends, and they couldn't watch the whole thing... one decided she was going to throw up and left my house crying. It didn't bother me at all... Neither did Ringu 2... Neither did Ringu 0. Neither did Rasen. No movie has ever scared me (when I was 8 I think I jumped at a Freddy movie... since then I hate all jump-horror, not because it scares me, but because it's cheap). But Ringu and its sisters... and it's cousins... are all very creepy and atmospheric. And like I've said countless times about horror... it's not calesthenics (ie. jumping out of your seat through the whole film) that makes a good horror movie... it's being trained slightly to look in the back seat of your car before you get in... to unconsciously slip your blankets over your head before you go to sleep... to walk back from the bathroom in the middle of the night a little faster than you normally would... to not hang your feet over the side of the bed...
...or, like me, show the Ring movie to everyone you can... just in case.
I had a chance to see Battle Royale yesterday night.
Well, I do not think it is The Greatest Movie Ever Made, but was still good enough to disturb me (in a good way). It could be a much better movie if it was more 'believable'. In 'believabity', I don't mean the fictional BR act,
Spoiler
but the school kids who can still survive enough to fight and have some last words after getting shot 6-7 times with gun (I don't even mention the teacher getting shot with a machine gun, and then goes to answer his cell phone and eats a cookie for the last time). I mean, even if you shoot a kid once even to their legs/stomach, don't they fall and pass over?
This may sound like an unsignificant detail, but it ruined the whole reality of the movie for me, I felt like I was watching a computer game.
On the other hand, as Esper stated, the reactions and the acts of the students were so real and shocking.
I really felt sorry for the nerd students who succeeded to hack into the island system and were about to blow the main building of BR with explosives (and we witnessed the Japanese intelligence once again :) ). I wish I could stop that crazy guy before he killed them, I would really love to see that scientific boys survive and escape the island. (THE GEEK SHALL INHERIT THE WORLD!).
Oh, by the way, had anyone else thought of making a game of this BR concept after watching the movie? :P
I definitely have. I had a dream that I told Peter Jackson to get off his ass and go make the Hobbit so I could direct the American remake (properly read: bastardization) of Battle Royale that they are going to start working on in 2008. Too many projects going on at once, though.
And as for the survivability factor... adrenaline does weird things to you... and sometimes taking license with how the human body works is an essential part of storytelling :D
Quote from: Gord10 on Mon 05/03/2007 17:22:21
Oh, by the way, had anyone else thought of making a game of this BR concept after watching the movie? :P
Countless games are already pretty close to that concept... In fact BR depicts a generation influenced by that, among the references to career pressure and obviously the media. So creating a game out of that is sortof missing the point. Almost like being inspired to create a TV-show like that.
I thought the movie was good, technically brilliant at times and with a good clear premise. But in Japanese cinema I prefer the old masters; Ozu, Mizoguchi, Kobayashi, Naruse, Teshigahara, Shindo, Kurosawa. Films like
Kwaidan,
Onibaba or
Ugetsu Monogatari deals with terror in a lot more subtle, creepy and ultimately haunting way. To me.
Yay! Lot's of juicy opinions and ideas in this thread.
ProgZ: We have indeed discussed and lamented the current state of Hollywood and we also share an affinity for cinema of the transmundane variety. ;)
To clarify: When labeling the content of a movie as "what they can get away with" immediately, to my mind, dismisses such content as artistically superfluous to the story being told. Gore is gore, yes, and ninety percent of the time it is indeed superfluous, but in a movie such as Audition it think it is justified. As I've said in my previous post, I believe the parallels drawn from Asami's torture of Shigeharu; Extreme feminist revenge, a physical manifestation of rejection, punishment for his blind quest for the Perfect Woman (which can be seen as insult to all "real" women, I suppose), etc, gives the scene something above the usual cinematic gorgasm.
This is the exception I took with your comment, and nothing more. :)
Audition is a scary movie, as The Wicker Man is scary, or Witchfinder General. With the exception of Ringu, most J-Horror is as effective as most big-budget Hollywood horror. That is to say, not very.
Ringu succeeds because of two things. The palpable sense of dread the persists throughout the first half of the movie, and the closing scene of Reiko's planned sacrifice of her father to save her son. Sadako crawling out of the TV is a brilliantly executed scene, but the final scene trumps it for sheer chills.
Battle Royale achieves something similar in the scene in which two lovestruck students decide that rather than to be forced to kill their classmates, and utimately each other, they will simply plummet over a cliff, hand in hand, to their doom. The lighthouse massacre, a simple case of mistaken identity, which ends with the instigator screaming her apologies through tears as she is forced to gun down those around her, holds equal power.
It's rare for films to hold such power for me, and I increasingly find that western cinema lacks similar experiences.
Japanese society/culture/state of mind could be the defining factor into it creators ability to tap into these feelings/fears/insecurities on a cinematic level.
Quote from: Gord10 on Mon 05/03/2007 17:22:21
I mean, even if you shoot a kid once even to their legs/stomach, don't they fall and pass over?
what i have heard from police officers and soldiers leads me to believe that people always passing out instantly after being shot is a hollywood myth.Ã,Â
Quote from: LimpingFish on Mon 05/03/2007 20:53:09
Japanese society/culture/state of mind could be the defining factor into it creators ability to tap into these feelings/fears/insecurities on a cinematic level.
I think it has less to do with the culture and state of mind enhancing art and more to do with what the film industry in different countries think will sell to the general public.Ã, American movie companies seem more interested in pushing a consistent product that sells in a predictable amount, So they are less likly to take chances with unique movies or something that might be considered politically incorrect.
QuoteThe Wicker Man is scary
You're not talking about the remake I hope. Watch the original with Christopher Lee if you want a more cerebral and better thought out movie.
Erenan, Videodrome was really blah overall, I don't recommend it. Most Cronenberg films are blah, though. I'm not sure what your tastes are as far as horror goes, though, so I can't really recommend anything.
Battle Royale is also one of my favourite films af all time.
The is one drawback though... It's not long enough... I don't think they should have made a two hour movie, It should have been a TV Series.Ã, There are 42 kids and not enough time in the two hours to show all of their deaths without it looking a bit far-fetched.
Not that I'm bad-mouthing the film, It's beautiful, but Imagine if we had more time to get to know the characters and have some more flashbacks (like L O S T where the flasbacks are as important as normal-time).Ã, In the mangas, and in the novel each of the kids has a history and none of them are easy sterotypes,Ã, they all have backgrounds that have shaped them and eventually their fates are decided by the types of people they have become, and it is such a very important part of the BR mythology that when I watched the film (which I did after having read the manga) I could help but think most of it was missing.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 05/03/2007 21:47:11
QuoteThe Wicker Man is scary
You're not talking about the remake I hope. Watch the original with Christopher Lee if you want a more cerebral and better thought out movie.
The remake?!? It's a
truly diseased mind that could find entertainment within
that festering pile of nonsense.
The original is cinematic gold, and the remake is just more proof that modern filmmakers should leave well enough alone.
Edward Woodward's performance alone is worth the price of admission, and it's one of those films that really disturbs on a primal level. Lord Summerisle's sing-song turns the finale even more mind-blowingly creepy than Sergeant Howie's fate alone. Classic. :)
If anybody attempts to remake Witchfinder General (The Conquerer Worm), I'll claw my eyes out.
Not that anyone will. :=
As for Cronenberg, I agree with ProgZ, though Shivers (They Came From Within) posseses a degree of perverse entertainment.
From the early 80's onwards, though, Cronenberg is pretty much...meh.
Well, I haven't really developed any particular taste in Horror at the present moment because I've seen so few Horror films. Pretty much just Audition, and then a few films that aren't really horrific, such as What Lies Beneath, the Ring, a couple Child's Play movies, and some of M. Night Shyamalan's films. So I'm really sort of looking to sample different horror films. At any rate, one of the reasons I want to see Videodrome is because I'm interested in the basic premise, as well as a more general interest in the effects of media on the human mind without respect to content (though of course I don't know how much of that idea is actually in the film). The other reason is because the title simply stuck in my mind when Helm mentioned it during that long discussion about censorship, ratings, and content disclaimers.
videodrome was the most memorable Cronenberg movie for me.
Quote from: LimpingFishBattle Royale achieves something similar in the scene in which two lovestruck students decide that rather than to be forced to kill their classmates, and utimately each other, they will simply plummet over a cliff, hand in hand, to their doom. The lighthouse massacre, a simple case of mistaken identity, which ends with the instigator screaming her apologies through tears as she is forced to gun down those around her, holds equal power.
Damn movie. Reading that turned me all emo...
I find it hard to believe that anyone can argue that Battle Royale is the greatest movie ever made. Battle Royale is nothing more than a bloody slasher flick with slick editing.
I watched the film around Xmas time mostly because I had received it as a gift. I was also told that it was original, a little thought provoking and had a bit of violence to lighten things up a bit.
Well, I know not to trust my brother about anything.
To me, this film is a combination of three ideas: Lord of the Flies (kids trapped on an island, duking it out), the short story "The Lottery" (the whole lottery selection system and the innate evil in all men/women) and any B-rated slasher movie (for the outright violence and brief sexuality).
For those who haven't seen it - send a class of delinquents to an island, have them kill each other and let the last one go free (which is about as much as one can expect from a blood-and-guts type film). Add a crazy teacher-turned-militant, picture Magneto but instead of mutants vs humans it's adults vs kids, who is broadcasting this whole ordeal to show the world that kids are like adults that haven't grown up yet or learned what life is about. Finally, throw in a love/redemption story, a couple of computer hackers, a Mexican standoff, and there you have it, a recipe for a blockbuster, right?
I'll accept the plot; it's not bad, just not ground breaking.
This is where everything goes to hell in a hand basket.
Sure, a whole class of delinquents is gone, but you're letting the most coldhearted and ruthless one go. Come on. In one of the first scenes, you see a girl that is totally messed up from having to kill all her friends. That's the goal of the program?
If they really wanted to reduce delinquency, they'd round up delinquents and send them to the island rather than send some randomly selected group of kids. It would illustrate their point more clearly, rather than have a bunch of nerds being filleted because they don't know how to operate a firearm. “But you want and need a hero to cheer for†is probably what you're thinking. Okay, that's fine. But it's more interesting to see a person redeem themselves and become a hero rather than see them learn nothing and remain stagnant. Plus, all the really innocent people, ie "good guys", die even before the game begins. Why not just line all the students and execute them in front of their school, why do the whole dance of kidnapping and bringing them to an island, if the real goal is to kill everyone.
There are also marshals killing the students who either won't fight or anyone in their path for that matter. The marshals add an unnecessary layer; the kids don't care about the marshals. Conceivably, it would be hard to kill anyone, but placed in a life or death situation, much harder to kill a friend than a stranger.
There are a bunch more flubs plot wise but this post is already huge.
Honestly, I don't understand why there was so much hype about this flick, it's a disposable bloodbath. It's got Beat Takeshi but not his eye behind the camera which would have helped. There are some fun scenes like when the fat guy gets speared in the gut - I laughed. Poisoned spaghetti! Ha! And when the slutty girl does her little “seduce the boy with the gun†act â€" I have to admit she was good at it. But otherwise, blah.
From the back cover of my copy of the movie:
"At the dawn of the new millenium, Japan is in a state of near-collapse. Unemployment is at an all-time high, and violence amongst the nation's youth is spiralling out of control. With school children boycotting their lessons and physically abusing their teachers, a beleaguered and near-defeated government decides to introduce a radical new measure: The Millenium Educational Reform Act. Overseen by their former teacher, Kitano, and requiring that a randomly-chosen class be taken to a deserted island and forced to fight each other to the death, the Act dictates that only one pupil be allowed to survive. He or she will return, not as a victor, but as the ultimate proof of the lengths to which the government is prepared to go to quell the tide of juvenile delinquency."
Honestly, I'm not going to tell you your opinion is wrong, because no one's opinion is wrong. However, your facts are wrong... Battle Royale is not a pointless bloodbath. As I've said already, several times in fact, it shows violence for what it really is... a very terrible thing. The idea of putting the kids on the island forced to fight to the death simply puts the idea "violence is bad" on the table and then improves on it infinitely by showing the absolute worst conditions. If American school kids could watch this movie at an early age, before any of our stupid American movies get first chance to put the preconceived notion in their head that killing is somehow cool and glorified, they would never, ever touch a weapon in their lives. Note that Japan has an incredibly low crime rate.
I can understand that maybe you didn't like it, but don't sit there and try to tell me it's a pointless bloodbath. I know pointless bloodbath, because it's the only thing Hollywood has been throwing at me since I was a kid. Don't try to tell me that a movie has no redeeming value when it made a grown man who didn't even shed a tear when his own father passed away cry like a baby the whole time through. I feel sorry that you have the idea that just because a movie is violent means its pointless. It's kinda like those people who say nudity is bad and then turn around and say we're all made in God's image...
EDIT: By the way... I can hardly accept your opinion if you're going to say "it's a disposable bloodbath" and then turn around and say "I laughed when the fat kid got speared in the gut." You hypocrite. So, what you're essentially saying is that the fat kid was just as "disposable" as the movie? That's Yoshio, whom I mentioned in an earlier post. He was fat, and unpopular, and when he was told what was happening knew that everyone would gun straight for him, being the easiest target. He snapped when the time came to make the decision to continue being a pacifist and be hunted down and murdered or to take the one little bit of luck that his life had ever thrown his way... a good weapon... and survive. And, as Limping Fish mentioned, the "poisoned spaghetti" was one of the most heartbreaking scenes in the film, albeit a little overstylized.
The one simple message in the film is that coporal discipline doesn't work. The fact that the boy and girl who escape the island, murder her parents (for two reasons I believe: One, so that they can run away together, and two, as revenge against an adult society that would allow the treatment of it's children in such a way), tells us that using corporal discipline/punishment to "control" a nation's youth will only breed resentment and, ultimately, hatred.
I not going to argue over plot holes, as no story would sacrifice the power of it's message just so everything will line-up razor-edge straight.
Nor am I blindly defending BR, as I mulled over these plot discrepancies when I first saw the movie. I just don't think they detract from the movies statement.
Quote from: esper on Tue 06/03/2007 03:54:48
If American school kids could watch this movie at an early age, before any of our stupid American movies get first chance to put the preconceived notion in their head that killing is somehow cool and glorified, they would never, ever touch a weapon in their lives. Note that Japan has an incredibly low crime rate.
I'm not so sure it's that simple. The movies our kids watch are not the only influences on their behavior. Not by a long shot. There are centuries and centuries of history that have created the very different cultures of the U.S. and Japan. American children and Japanese children are as they are for many more reasons than the nature of their entertainment. However, I do believe that the nature of the entertainment is both a reflection of and an influence on the culture.
I am not to much into horrer, so much of it seems to be to no perpose, just "lets see what wacked out thing we can do next" type stuff. I do love soulful anime, like Ghost in the Shell combined great action with a wonderful selection of philosiphical questions. I did like "phone booth" And I laughed my self silly in most of the "scary movies" The old silent berrymore jeckle and hyde movie is remarkibly compelling.
Esper, sadly I can't share your optimism. You can't expect that a movie which features the "downside"- the terrible consequences - of violence will "teach" children not to be violent, and in this respect I highly doubt that Battle Royal can act as an example, something to learn from.
If anything, any sort of violence shown on TV or wherever will create a sort of tolerance, and render its viewers more blunt about their perception of violence. A young kid will have a limited ability to appreciate whether one sort of violence is labelled "wrong" and another isn't; at the end of the day the violence has just made him more used to all the blood, more insecure, more familiar with scenes of death and suffering etc.
I believe it's primarily the treshold of fear and angst that causes violent acts (like school shootings etc) and not the failure to understand their consequences.
So, I must disagree with how you conclude that second paragraph...it's not all about glorifying versus demonising; it's more a matter of the sheer quantity we expose ourselves to.
I'll actually have to concede to that. I mean, I certainly wouldn't show it to my kids, until at least they were MUCH older, and then only if I was sure they would enjoy it, not as some kind of tool. But, nevertheless, I know if I had seen this movie when I was younger, it would have taken the place of "Nausicaa and the Valley of the Wind" as my influence to be a pacifist. However, now that I have seen it, I wonder... could the scene that moved me so much in Nausicaa, where Lord Yupa stops Nausicaa from avenging her father with his own blood, really have mattered to me if I were put in the same situation as these students? Battle Royale made me reconsider exactly what it is I'm capable of.
I've always thought that I'm incapable of cheating on my spouse, and I've always been very faithful even to the girlfriends I had in junior high school. But what happens if I'm put in the position, like in Indecent Proposal, where I'm offered a million dollars to do just that? Or if I'm threatened with my life? Battle Royale made me realize just how frail human beings are in several ways, not the least of which is our perception of who we really are.
Okay okay, a long post to sift through and respond to it all. I've glanced at each post briefly, seeing what pops into my mind, so I'll try and post this in a orderly fashion.
First off, I can relate to your emotions on a movie being so good and you were so moved. There is always one movie that hits directly home (or even a few), you just have to find it. For me it was Dellamorte Dellamore, I've watched that film atleast 15 times and it just gets better each time. As I've never watched Battle Royal, I won't comment on the direct movie but moreso the opinions stated in the posts.
To me, lots of Asian Horror that doesn't fall into CATIII falls short for me. The only Asian "horror" movies I liked were Untold Story and Naked Blood. Untold was the most horrific in character and the little kid slaughter, but Naked Blood was just pretty gross (an odd). I hate lots of the psychological horror movies, mostly because they have this pretentious attitude by trying to bring a message. When I watch movies, I want them to hit a base instict and trying to cast an illusion over this just makes me angry.
I feel movies that try to have a large conscious message take away from a lot of the actual film and makes them over-rated (apparently IMHO). I see gore movies not because of the underlying social commentary, but because of the gore. Gore is an art and I dont find it sadistic to watch it. Half because you are disgusted and amazed at the same time. Movies like Dead Next Door, Riki-Oh, Redneck Zombies, They Don't Cut the Grass Anymore all have pretty much simple reasons for existing, showing gore. Sure the B-acting is just a plus and the story is for laughs, but when it comes right down to all reactions are base and none are better than the other. So that point has been made.
Next, the point on Audition, I had to touch on. I was hearing how all "gory" and "sadisitic" it was. I watched it expecting so much, and wow was I proved wrong. It was boring, the story was stupid, and overall the gore was pretty minimal. While I am a "gorehound" I can appreciate a good story with relatable characters, but this one was just stupid. On the other hand, calling it a step up from snuff is no where close. August Underground's is more like snuff (hell, if it was real it would be), but that movie is simply stupid because its just a bunch of idiot kids who think they are "pushing limits" by taking the most sadistic thing they can think of and blatantly showing it.
Next, about Hostel and american films, the whole point of Hostel was a revenge film. While it wasn't the best, it got the point home. You were meant to feel impowered at the end and adrenaline pumping through your veins with a smug smile of satisfaction. It could have been better, but it did what it was meant to do.
In summation, movies should touch on a basic level, whatever it is trying to achieve. I don't like much of this philosophical or social commentary being the main purpose of a music. Dellamorte Dellamore has a lot of that, but when it comes right down to it, I saw it first because of the zombies. Later, I realized how subtle these things were and how to appreciate it, it wasn't right in your face. It has a nice layered effect, so many things can come from it.
Oh, and Tarantino doesn't push limits, here merely steals them.