I am serious so please no jokes or snarky remarks. My cat, Tuqu (too-coo), who I dearly love is missing since last Saturday evening.
A year and a half ago I found a 3 week old kitten at my moms house. He couldn't see because his eyes were full of crap and glued shut. I think this was from fleas that were biting his face and the areas around his eyes. I fed him milk from an eyedropper, traveled through airports with him, taught him to walk with a leash climb trees and chase birds (he picked up on the bird thing pretty quick).
I know that his not cowering under some bush and afraid to come home. If he could come home he would. He is a skilled climber and world class athlete. He's smart enough to no get lost and brave enough not to have been frightened away. One evening last summer while walking on a leash a neighbor's dog came to the other side of the fence and started barking. I had expected that Tuqu would have frizzed out and run away pulling on and slipping out of the leash. Instead he just sat down and started growling under his breath like he was really, really angry.
The last time I saw him was 5:30 pm last Saturday when I let him go outside. I took our other cat outside on a leash shortly after that for a short walk around the house. I came back in the house and started working on the computer. Around 7:30 I all of a sudden something inside told me to go look for Tuqu. I asked my wife if he came back in yet and she ask me why I was asking (I'm usually the one who is absent minded about that). We went out looking for him for the next three hours but hew was not to be found.
Here are the possibilities I am fairly confident that can be eliminated:
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1. He was not hit by a car. Check nearby streets and animal control about DOAs.
2. Has not killed by a dog. There was no sign of blood, fur, or other indications of such a struggle.
3. He was not frightened away and too scared to come home.
4. He did not wander off and forget how to get back home.
Here are the possibilities that are still open:
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5. He got stuck in a garage or a shed. We had a break in the weather and perhaps people took the opportunity to stow (or retrieve) stuff in a garage or shed.
6. Someone took him in as a stray. His bones are almost full grown but he looks skinny and has always had a ravenous appetite. So it wouldn't be that odd for someone to think he was a stray., in which case they would keep him in the house for awhile so they could care for him and so that he wouldn't runaway and be "homeless" again.
7. He was killed by a gang for some kind of initiation ritual. We have recently had gang graffiti appear in the neighborhood. However, I am told that the gang it appears to be (Latino/Philipino) are sort of low key and that gangs don't typically hurt animals. And if they did do something like that they wouldn't hide the remains but would want them to be found and to know who did it.
8. He was killed an eaten.
8a. A neighbor who lives about a block away who is from a country where cat eating is very prominent.
8b. About 2 years ago there was an outbreak of rabbits (100+) on the same corner. They were just running around in the street until finally the city came and took them away. Everyone thought they belonged to some old retired dude because they were always in his yard. However, it turned out that they were not his at all and that the other neighbor had brought the original ones there and was eating them.
8c. We lost another cat, Bandito, in similar circumstances around that time frame also. A was a warm May morning and I saw our oldest cat Gordito, crossing the busy street he is not supposed to cross and going in the direction of the rabbits. I left the house and went after him. I was carrying him in my arms and was going to take him home. We passed by Bandito who was playing in tall grass just across from our house. I didn't want Gordito feel like he was being punished so I put him down next to Bandito so they could play together. I did some yard work not more than 200 ft away. I called them around lunch time but they never came back. Yes, my cats are trained to come when I whistle and they always come (almost ;)). Gordito finally got back at 5:30 but Bandito did not.
8d. I was passing out "lost" poster the other night on the same block where this neighbor lives. I was told that 4-5 cats have went missing on that one block since October.
8e. I went to the copy shop to get more posters made yesterday. The clerk told me that he lives in a nearby suburb and that a couple of years ago he had several cats go missing from his home and that other people nearby also had cats go missing. When he went looking for the last cat he found his tale in a neighbor's back yard. Apparently police came to ask questions etc and within a few days the neighbor moved away. his neighbor came from the same country as my neighbor.
8f. I asked him if they threw a sack or something over his cat and he said that his cat was friendly and probably just walked up to them to say high. Both of my missing kitties would have done the same thing.
8g. I knocked on the neighbor's door last night, gave hime a "lost' poster and gave my little speech. I swear I could see in his eyes that he was laughing at me inside, like I was an idiot for looking for a cat that was Sunday dinner the week before.
So now I am wondering if 2 years ago Bandito and Gordito when back across the street to check out the rabbits and wandered into this guy's yard where they caught Bandito and ate him. Gordito got back 5 hours later than usual so maybe he was also trapped and managed to escape or he hung out hoping to bring Bandito back home and maybe left after he realized they killed him and he wouldn't be coming back? Now two years later the same thing happens to my Tuqu and the other neighborhood cats.
I have to tell you that I am horrified at the thought and I don't want it to be true. But as time passes the other possibilities become less and less likely. I would like to figure out for certain if my dark suspicions are true or not and if they are I would like to send those SOBs to prison for a long time or as long as the law permits.
Next week I plan on canvasing the neighborhood and documenting all the missing cats and the relevant details to see if there is a pattern. I am also thinking about slipping the garbage men a 20 spot every week to check their garbage for cat remains over the next several months. I am going to talk with the copy clerk today to get more details of his experience. I think I can get adjacent neighbors to keep an eye out but I'm not sure that will be effective.
Do you know of any instances of people stealing and eating their neighbor's pets? Do you have any other ideas of how I might catch these fiends?
I any of you are religious at all please say a little prayer for Tuqu. Ask to keep him safe and from suffering and to help him find his way home if he is still alive. And if not perhaps you could ask Tuqu to forgive me for not being smart enough to keep him safe.
Thanks for listening my friends.
Rick
I hope he returns alive and well home. He could easily be stuck somewhere that there's no escape. Can I ask this: If you wanted to trap him in a box, how would you do that?
You could just throw in a toy, a ball of paper, or just push a stick in from the other side and get hi to play with it. He is just 1.5 years old and so is like a little kid. For him the world is a fun and happy place full of wonderment and love ...
That's horrible, Rick :(
I hope your neighbor hasn't eaten him and he comes back. At least I hope he is with somebody who thought he was a stray.
Best of luck to you and most of all, Tuqu...
This may be a lame attempt at lightening the subject a little but, I am actually serious: Maybe now is the time adventure game skills can come in handy in keeping an eye on that bastard yourself ;)
Hey Rick,
There is some compelling evidence that I think warrants a little investigation (do some adventure game stuff as Snake suggested) on this neighbor. While it might be okay in his original land to eat cats he doesn't live there anymore and needs to curtail such activities. Even if it was okay to eat cats here you still don't cat-nap your neighbor's cat. It'd be like takin' a cow from your neighbor's herd and making some cheeseburgers. Sure we eat cow here but that doesn't make cow-napping proper.
However ... I want to pass along some positivity here.
Years ago a friend of mine's cat wandered off. THREE MONTHS passed and they had moved on convinced AJ (the cat) had died and/or wasn't coming back. They came home from school one day and AJ was chillin' on the front porch. Came right in the house like nothing had happened and never wandered off like that again. Also; just a few weeks back my sister's cat wandered off and was gone more than a week before coming home.
My point is that cats wander off. They aren't "domesticated" in the strictest sense of the word. They choose to cohabit with us measly humans. So, it's only been [less than] a week. I wouldn't give up hope just yet! Tuqu might be having the cat version of Rumspringa and will find his way back home when he's sewed his oats and appeased his wander-lust!
I'm not a prayin' man but I'll send some positivity out into the 'verse for little Tuqu's safe return!
Hang in there man :)
I am speechless.
That is an amazingly strange and disturbing story, Rick.
While I don't want to get into a larger animal rights debate, eating cats (or dogs, for that matter) just isn't acceptable. Especially when the person in question is a guest, permanent or otherwise, in a society where such behavior is considered pretty abhorrent.
But trapping and eating somebody's pets?! I'm nauseous just considering the possibility.
You and your family have all my support, Rick. I'm hoping real hard for a happy ending.
This is so fucked up, i feel for you Rick. I love my cat, i trust him for comfort more than anyone.
Recently a friends kitten went missing, after 6 months of owning her. Months pass and no return so they adopted another kitten, three months later that one goes missing D:
It's been a further two months now and no return of either kitten, silver lining is that some local kids have spotted the first kitten a number of occasions and attempted to catch her. No luck so far but it really does show that they can fend for themselves, if they find somewhere warm where a rubbish bin can be accessed it is often a no brainer for the cat. 24/7 food supply appeals to their natural instinct.
I'm not religious but your cat will definitely be in my thoughts, i hope things get better for you Rick.
Sorry to hear about that Rick. I am a cat lover and an owner of a 17 year old feline.
I hope your kitty comes back to you. Best wishes to you sir.
Shawn
I think nothing you've told us is particularly suspicious. Cats disappear for any number of reasons, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with being eaten by scary foreigners. Sometimes they run off for their own mysterious feline purposes. (Even when in a happy home; BTW, is your cat spayed?)
Is it possible that someone (NOT necessarily the neighbor you have focused on) deliberately killed Tuqu? Sadly, yes, but the motive is much more likely to be a dislike of cats, or simple pleasure in killing, than dinner. I'm willing to bet that people from cat-eating countries understand as well as we do that it's not OK to capture and kill your neighbors' pets, no matter how succulent.
Even if the person is guilty (and I would like to emphasize: national origin and perceived lack of sympathy is not good grounds for suspicion), I can't imagine they'd go to jail for it. They would have to have shown some serious cruelty to animals (beyond just killing) before that would be a possibility. However, some of the steps you are contemplating sound like they could constitute harassment and invasion of privacy. Stay clear of that!
Finally, I'd like to say that sentimental feeling aside, there's nothing wrong or barbaric about eating cats (or dogs); or at least it's no worse than eating pig, cow, or lamb. And I say that as someone who is fond of cats and have had several; the same way I know someone who has a pet pig, but that doesn't mean everyone else is required to stop eating bacon.
I hope Tuqu has made it OK and returns. Meanwhile, don't freak out.
Disgust subsided, I'd second what Snarky has said about lack of proof and presumption of guilt.
I don't buy Dog/Cat = Cow/Pig, though. We have evolved past the need to eat certain animals, and in most cases the consumption of these animals is based in tradition and superstition. Even in countries such as China, were cat meat would be available in certain provinces, there is growing support for a end to the practice.
And don't get me started on the Swiss (http://www.jphpk.gov.my/English/Jan04%2014B.htm).
Though I think it's a worthwhile debate, maybe we should split this off into a separate thread in case Rick finds it upsetting...
I live in Switzerland, and I'll second that sentiment about the Swiss. ;) Dog-eating is the least of their exasperating traits, though (literally the least: it's not like they serve it at McDonald's here--I actually don't think I've ever seen it).
There's no need to eat any animal. People do it because they like the taste. Which is completely natural, and I'm sure cats and dogs would understand. Ultimately I don't think the morality/barbarity of carnivorism differs depending on whether people (usually other people) also keep the same type of animal as pets. And anyway, people have pet lambs, pet pigs, pet goats, pet rabbits, pet guinea pigs (a delicacy in Peru), etc.
I could be persuaded by an argument based on intelligence (no chimp steaks, no dolphin burgers), but pigs are apparently pretty damn smart, and octopuses are so scarily clever that I almost think we should eat more calamari just to be on the safe side. No, the only reason we accept that and not the other is sentimentality and cultural prejudice. Seen dispassionately, a Swiss hot dog with real dog, slaughtered at home, is arguably less ethically problematic than a piece of pork from an overcrowded factory farm.
I speak as a lapsed vegetarian: I think the inhumane treatment of livestock at many modern farms is indefensible and immoral, but meat is just too tempting, and vegetarianism too much of a hassle (here in Switzerland; in the US there were usually veggie options available).
Hey Rick. Don't give up hope. My cat once went missing for nearly a month, and then just strolled back in one day without a slightest explanation. That was when we first got a new dog, so I'm almost certain that's why she ran away.
But whatever the reason, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that she'll come strolling in again.
Keep an eye out for more clues regarding your neighbour, but be careful not to jump to any conclusions. It could end up messy.
As for eating cats and dogs... to be perfectly honest, if I was in a country where eating dogs was legal, I'd probably have a taste out of interest. I really don't see the difference (I think I'd pass on the cat-meat, though - I can imagine it to taste horrible). We view dogs as pets in most country's, but that's just a fact that has come about almost arbitrarily... in an alternate timeline, we might be feasting on poodles and persecuting those who choose to eat cute cows.
I have to agree with Snarky in that there is no preponderance of evidence against your neighbor that would make strongly suspecting him go beyond the paranoia stage. Cats take off all the time; they are, at heart, independent creatures, and many studies will bear this as evidence. It is true that some become fiercely loyal and refuse to wander, but many many others do so simply because it is in their nature to be less dependent than dogs tend to be, ie, we haven't completely bred out their 'wild' nature.
I strongly suspect that your cat caught the scent of a female or something interesting and wandered off, perhaps got lost (or not) and simply hasn't returned home. A more likely outcome is that someone in your neighborhood is sick and tired of cats wandering onto their property, setup some cat traps, and either brought the animal to a humane society location or drove somewhere outside the neighborhood and let it go, something I've seen done many times and don't see a problem with. If you want your animals safe, keep them under control and on your property.
Finally, suspecting your neighbor because they come from a 'cat eating country' is more than a little petty in my opinion. It's one thing if he's been convicted of it in America or professed a preference for dog/cat meat publicly, but it seems you're just drawing on racial stereotypes here to try and find a target for your frustration, and you're better than that.
That sucks Rick.
I had a cat disappear once, and about 6 months later I went to do some repair work on a house about a mile from mine, and there he was, just hanging out :)
Good luck man.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 11/02/2011 20:40:39
Years ago a friend of mine's cat wandered off. THREE MONTHS passed and they had moved on convinced AJ (the cat) had died and/or wasn't coming back. They came home from school one day and AJ was chillin' on the front porch. Came right in the house like nothing had happened and never wandered off like that again.
Yeah, like ten years ago, my family's cat disappeared from one day to the other. 10 months later he suddenly appeared on the balcony as if nothing had happened.
I hope you cat is alright and that he comes back.
This definitely reminds me of The 'burbs (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096734/).
I hope you get him back soon. I can't imagine a gang bothering with a cat.
If you are good at reading people, talk to your neighbor again and try to feel him out. Back when I was in college, a guy I knew messed with my car when I wasn't around. I questioned him, he denied it, and then I took the route of "what kind of cowardly pansy messes with someone's ride behind their back" and his pride gave him away. So maybe make some comments to the effect of "what kind of sick, weirdo would steal a cat?".
Quote from: kconan on Sun 13/02/2011 15:28:47
If you are good at reading people, talk to your neighbor again and try to feel him out. Back when I was in college, a guy I knew messed with my car when I wasn't around. I questioned him, he denied it, and then I took the route of "what kind of cowardly pansy messes with someone's ride behind their back" and his pride gave him away. So maybe make some comments to the effect of "what kind of sick, weirdo would steal a cat?".
I like this idea.
(... and sometimes you can find support from unexpected side.)
Hopefully there will be a happy-end for you and Tuqu and ... (all) ~ sending my best wishes for this to become true!
Hm, a cat went missing. Paranoia ensues. I hope I am not offending any cat lovers here, but isn't it a bit too much to consider "locking that bastard away" or "showing that S.O.B." (misquoted, I know) or whatever revenge fantasies there are, when there isn't any evidence but gossip? That's cat vs. human, am I too much of a humanist here to find that kind of off-putting?
Cats run off all the time, and they return just like that all the time, or don't, whatever fantasies of a special relation and love and affection the former owner might have had. I hope that particular cat returns soon to prove me wrong, but I just don't believe that cats seek anything more but food, shelter and comfort while they are staying with people.
Oh, well. I hope you don't feel like I've hijacked the thread for a general rambling about cats and humans, and again, I hope your cat returns soon.
1. Find evidence
2. Prepare a fork and a knife
3. Enter your neighbour's house while they sleep
4. ?????
5. Profit!
It's perfectly logical for Rick to consider his [country of origin] neighbor a suspect in this disappearance. If a human being went missing ALL suspects would be considered, not just the ones that wouldn't offend somebody's racial or political sensitivities. Tuqu is, based on Rick's emotional message, a member of the family and as such warrants as much attention as the search for a missing person. This being the case it's logical to consider his neighbor from a cat-eating culture a suspect. It's not fear mongering. It's logical deduction.
Sure; cats wander off from time to time (as I and others have already stated and I find the most probable situation here) but that fact doesn't immediately exclude the possbility of foul play. Rick isn't basing the subject or premise of this thread on whimsy or a knee-jerk reaction. As always his post is extremely thorough and well thought out (if a tad more emotional than usual which, given the context, is understandable). If he had said, "Man my neighbor is Chinese/Korean/Whatever and those people eat cats so I know he ate my cat" then I could justify calling it fear of "scary foreigners" but that's not what he said. He shared his thoughts of his investigation into the disappearance of a family member and his conclusions/suspicions thus far.
Me personally? I find it highly unlikely the this neighbor would have done such a horrible thing but that doesn't mean he didn't and should just be excluded as a potential suspect.
If a convicted rapist lived in the neighborhood, and a girl was raped in the same neighborhood, would you exclude the known rapist as a suspect simply 'cause he happened to be of a different race than the police detective? No, because that would be stupid.
A cat has gone missing and there's a neighbor in close proximity who not only hales from a culture that eat cats but has also raised some suspicions in the past. It's logical to consider him a suspect. Again before people go all PC on me I'm not saying the guy did it, I'm saying it warrants looking into. If a family member of mine went missing I'd investigate EVERY possible lead and people's lame-ass sensitivities be damned.
All that aside ...
Rick? Any word?
I second what Darth said. Before Duals' made the first post I had already figured it would turn into such a thing at some point. How can it not?
I've never met Rick, but I do know him enough from here on the forums and personal messages to know that he's pretty damn smart. Actually, he's the smartest person I've ever had the privilege of knowing.
He's not jumping to conclusions or blindly pointing fingers saying, "HEY! The neighbor's from a country that eats cats! I bet it was him!!1!". He's obviously written a sort of check list with all the possibilities he could think of, ruling them out one by one. Now, judging from the evidence he's gathered, he's concerned that this guy could be a serious possibility, hence posting here.
Go easy on the guy.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 14/02/2011 23:46:26
This being the case it's logical to consider his neighbor from a cat-eating culture a suspect. It's not fear mongering. It's logical deduction.
It's racial (or at least cultural) profiling. Surely its the equivilent of blaming a black guy for a crime because on average the black population commits more crime that the white population (in the US at least).
Remember Rick has no evidence (beyond tenuous circumstantial stuff) that his neighbour even eats cats, nevermind steals them from people so your rapist analogy falls down.
With that aside I am very much a cat lover (owning two) and so I hope that your cat is safe and happy wherever he may be.
Quote from: Calin Elephantsittingonface on Tue 15/02/2011 01:10:17It's racial (or at least cultural) profiling. Surely its the equivilent of blaming a black guy for a crime because on average the black population commits more crime that the white population (in the US at least).Remember Rick has no evidence (beyond tenuous circumstantial stuff) that his neighbour even eats cats, nevermind steals them from people so your rapist analogy falls down.
I've never understood how we have (in the modern world) let logic take a back seat to political correctness. I can't speak for the "ratio" of the race of criminals in the U.S. but if a shepherd loses 20 sheep a year to wolves and 1 to coyote isn't it logical for him to conclude, when he loses a sheep, that it was a wolf that done it? It's not species-racism or profiling ... it's law of averages and deductive reasoning.
I find my analogy completely valid. The cops would be fired from the force if they overlooked the convicted rapist in the neighborhood as a suspect simply because they were afraid of being accused of profiling.
If the guy on the other side of the suspected neighbor was from a culture that revered cats and would never harm them, would it be "profiling" to rule him out as a suspect? Of course not (though I'd probably investigate him anyway but I don't trust anybody (white, black, red, green, yellow, blue, orange or wolf)).
Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. It warrants looking into (if Rick suspects foul-play). I'm not there. I don't know the neighbor or the past situations. But I "know" Rick and he wouldn't have posted this if he didn't have reason to suspect it. In light of that I feel he's justified in investigating this neighbor further.
Still, I'm just arguing the point that it's valid to investigate this guy. Personally (as I've said a few times already) I doubt this guy had a part. I find it more likely, if foul-play was committed, that it was some little punk in the neighborhood just being a little punk (race of "punk" unspecified ... just to appease anybody who might think I meant a black kid).
Anyway ... this is getting off the topic of this thread and I apologize to Rick for my part in that.
Truthfully, I doubt that even if one could prove the neighbor ate the cat, that any criminal charges could actually stick.
Most likely you could sue the guy in Civil court though, perhaps your neighborhood has covenants or some other rules you could use against him if you had hard evidience of the crime.
Hopefully this resolves itself, but there are also some pet GPS options. It could help if it happened again.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 15/02/2011 02:49:27
I've never understood how we have (in the modern world) let logic take a back seat to political correctness. I can't speak for the "ratio" of the race of criminals in the U.S. but if a shepherd loses 20 sheep a year to wolves and 1 to coyote isn't it logical for him to conclude, when he loses a sheep, that it was a wolf that done it? It's not species-racism or profiling ... it's law of averages and deductive reasoning.
One difference. Your point doesn't have any weight in this argument at all. Because 19 of the 20 cats that ran away and didn't return were more than likely hit by a car or adopted by families who thought it was a stray. Who's to say the 1 cat not in that statistic didn't return because a man from a foreign country, that happens to eat cats, ate it. Doesn't mean he eats cats or has ever eaten a cat. That in itself is racial profiling.
The whole 'convicted' rapist argument is that he's actually
convicted. He's been proven guilty of raping someone. It's not that he lives in the same house as a convicted rapist -- it's that he's actually done it himself and been found guilty.
This foreign man hasn't been caught in his backyard slow roasting a cat on a spitfire. He just happens to live in a country that doesn't outlaw the slaughtering and eating of cats.
QuoteI find my analogy completely valid. The cops would be fired from the force if they overlooked the convicted rapist in the neighborhood as a suspect simply because they were afraid of being accused of profiling.
Again. Racial Profiling. Convicted VS the prejudged notion that this man eats cats because of his unfortunate cat-eating laws of his home country.
As Calin basically said, if something was stolen, should the cops start breaking down black people's doors because they have a higher percentage of theft than white people? Your argument is that he's a convicted rapist, which outweighs any racial or statistical chance and probability.
I was talking to Ben304 one day on messenger and I asked him if he lived with kangaroos and crocodiles jumping and crawling around in his backyard. It just so happens that he's never even seen a crocodile in the wild. I haven't been to Australia nor have I seen many videos of it. I was merely basing it on my preconceived notion that every Australian lived like Steve Irwin; the crocodile hunter.
Your basing your believe that this man eats cats because there might actually be 5 restaurants in his country (completely hypothetical) that actually serve it.
Guys ... seriously. I didn't say the neighbor ate the cat (several times I've said I doubt he did).
My point does have "weight" though because you drew the wrong conclusion from it. If you want to relate my wolves/sheep analogy to Rick's situation it would be "if 20 cats were eaten in a year and 19 of them were eaten by this neighbor and 1 was by a dog it would be logical to think the neighbor did it". The premise of my analogy was that the 'foul play' is confirmed, not just the suspicion of it. It was based on Calin's "black/white crime ratio" argument anyway and not missing cats.
QuoteAgain. Racial Profiling. Convicted VS the prejudged notion that this man eats cats because of his unfortunate cat-eating laws of his home country.
So you're saying that in ALL cases (strong/weak evidence doesn't matter) racial profiling should be avoided? Cops, Investigators and Detectives should ignore all clues or ideas that they might draw based on race? By that reasoning you'd agree that if a person from a society that eats humans moves into the neighborhood and people start vanishing they should just ignore the guy from the society that eats people 'cause, really, we wouldn't want to racially profile him?
Cop 1, "that guy comes from a society that eats people... but his skin is a different color than ours!"
Cop 2, "well then he couldn't have done it!"
The cat is missing, Rick suspects foul-play, he should investigate all angles; even if that includes a neighbor of a different skin color. Logical.
It doesn't have to be a racist thing but now-a-days that's the first thing everybody immediately jumps to in some sense of ... what? Enlightenment? A need to seem cultural and wise? What if the guy was from [cat-eating country] but was white? His (white) American parents had moved to [cat eating country] and he was born/raised there and moved to the states later in life. Would it be okay to consider him a suspect then?
I would like to point out that Rick never said the guy wasn't white.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb...but if a shepherd loses 20 sheep a year to wolves and 1 to coyote...
Quote from: Ryan Timothy...Because 19 of the 20 cats that ran away and didn't return were more than likely hit by a car...
Quote from: Darth Mandarb...if 20 cats were eaten in a year and 19 of them were eaten by this neighbor and 1 was by a dog it would be logical to think the neighbor did it...
I'm starting to think that Rick just wanted us to do fucking word problems >:(
Northern Chinese consider the whole cat-eating thing as "a southern problem". Quite possibly Southerners would say "Oh, that just happens in Sichuan" (or wherever, I only choose that as the only southern province that I can recall). In any case, its not exactly a culture thing, probably more an "avoiding starvation" thing.
Obviously, prejudice against poor people is just fine :)
Darth, you're missing the point. No one has said you should avoid suspecting someone due to race or culture but merely that you shouldn't suspect someone solely because of it.
Also you have to understand that there is a difference between it being culturally acceptable to eat cats and stealing cats to eat them.
*if* this guy had a previous record of eating cats and had been convicted (like your rapist) then feel free to apportion suspicion in his direction. However, you can't accuse him of theft just because some of his countrymen happen to like eating cats.
QuoteThis being the case it's logical to consider his neighbor from a cat-eating culture a suspect. It's not fear mongering. It's logical deduction.
This is so flawed I find it difficult to believe that you wrote it, Darth. It's along the same lines as having a salmon pond and immediately turning to your japanese neighbors when one goes missing just because you 'know' the japanese love fish; without any evidence beyond a generally-believed stereotype you're walking into very dangerous and unhealthy paranoia territory. I'm not saying it's impossible or could never be true, but suspecting the worst of another person because of a cultural predilection is just racism of the worst kind and using a word like logic to support a view or a feeling is pretty terrible.
Granted, if there is significant EVIDENCE (coming from a country where something is done is NOT evidence, or at best is purely circumstantial) that a neighbor is a thief or you have seen them in your yard around your pets or goods then you have reasonable cause to be suspicious, but going back to the cat eating issue it's just such a wild claim that, short of catching him in the act of trespassing or professing a desire to eat cats or an admission that he has done so recently, you've got no grounds for suspicion beyond xenophobia.
Please understand, my goal here is not to insult anyone but this suspicion based on cultural background thing is absolutely ludicrous and should not be defended by any rational person. It's xenophobia plain and simple until and unless some real evidence can be shown.
This is the sort of thing that makes me worry that Homeland Security's move to turn the fear of terrorism inward on Americans through their PSA's encouraging us to spy on one another via the 'Report Suspicious Activity' propaganda will succeed because there are people out there with suspicious minds that will quickly point fingers at their fellow man with the merest shred of a hint of a reason, like that man who turned in his neighbor a few weeks back for carrying a 'suspicious' package indoors (it was a labeled UPS package!).
QuoteDarth, you're missing the point...
...Also you have to understand that there is a difference between it being culturally acceptable to eat cats and stealing cats to eat them.
*if* this guy had a previous record of eating cats and had been convicted (like your rapist) then feel free to apportion suspicion in his direction. However, you can't accuse him of theft just because some of his countrymen happen to like eating cats.
I think it is not I who is missing the point.
I never accused this neighbor (or claimed he should
be accused). I contend (and stand-by) that there is enough evidence to warrant looking into his potential involvement further. A suspicion of guilt is not an accusation. I didn't say he did it (again, again, and again I've said I doubt he did). But you don't overlook
any connection in a matter (a disappearance) like this. No matter how circumstantial.
QuoteNo one has said you should avoid suspecting someone due to race or culture but merely that you shouldn't suspect someone solely because of it.
Let's make a white example here (since that's not likely to offend anybody). A member of the KKK lives in the neighborhood and racial slurs are spray-painted on a [non-white] person's house and the cops are called to find out who did it. Now, by your (and other's) "logic", because that KKK member has never been convicted of a crime (and might appear to be an upstanding member of the community aside from his connection to the culture of hate that is the KKK) the cops should ignore the fact that he is a member of the KKK and not investigate his possible involvement in the case? They shouldn't suspect him
solely on his connection to the KKK?
Quote from: ProgZmax on Tue 15/02/2011 12:08:24This is so flawed I find it difficult to believe that you wrote it, Darth. It's along the same lines as having a salmon pond and immediately turning to your japanese neighbors when one goes missing just because you 'know' the japanese love fish; without any evidence beyond a generally-believed stereotype you're walking into very dangerous and unhealthy paranoia territory. I'm not saying it's impossible or could never be true, but suspecting the worst of another person because of a cultural predilection is just racism of the worst kind and using a word like logic to support a view or a feeling is pretty terrible.
That makes
no sense. I honestly don't know how to reply to that. So we should pass a new law/policy to all police, detectives, investigators and people in general that if you feel a crime has been committed you should ignore ALL possible connections and only investigate people of the same race/culture as you? Let a criminal get away with something just to avoid offending cultural sensitivities?
"Well the neighbor is a suspect but we don't have any [insert culture] people on the force so we can't look into him!"
And you think I can't apply the word logic to
my statements?
QuoteGranted, if there is significant EVIDENCE (coming from a country where something is done is NOT evidence, or at best is purely circumstantial) that a neighbor is a thief or you have seen them in your yard around your pets or goods then you have reasonable cause to be suspicious, but going back to the cat eating issue it's just such a wild claim that, short of catching him in the act of trespassing or professing a desire to eat cats or an admission that he has done so recently, you've got no grounds for suspicion beyond xenophobia.
So your contention is that if a crime has been committed (or even just suspected) ALL cases should just be dropped if you don't have significant evidence? A crime should never be investigated on circumstantial evidence?
That's so flawed I find it difficult to believe you wrote it.
A cat has gone missing, a person in the neighborhood has a connection to a culture that eats cats. While it is FAR more likely the cat simply wandered off the potential for foul-play still exists. This isn't rocket science. The guy may find the notion of eating cats deplorable and might even be a cat-lover ... but you wouldn't know that unless you looked into him to discover that and then rule him out as a suspect.
But to ignore him as a potential suspect because of words like racism, xenophobia, dangerous territory, etc is just plain illogical.
To jump to the conclusion that I'm accusing him (even though I never accused him) is illogical.
To jump to the conclusion that I'm racially profiling the guy (or succumbing to any form of racism) is silly. Maybe you're assuming I'm racially profiling 'cause I'm white? Maybe it's not
me who is racially profiling here....
I can tell this is one of those issue that is just going to go back and forth. What I (and all the people I've discussed this with outside the forms (not all white, just to clarify)) see as "logic" others (here) see as racism and other such popular buzz-words. I'm not going to clog up this thread anymore.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 15/02/2011 13:57:46
I never accused this neighbor (or claimed he should be accused). I contend (and stand-by) that there is enough evidence to warrant looking into his potential involvement further. A suspicion of guilt is not an accusation. I didn't say he did it (again, again, and again I've said I doubt he did). But you don't overlook any connection in a matter (a disappearance) like this. No matter how circumstantial.
But with respect you have missed the point once again. There is
no evidence that this neighbour eats cats, and there is, to my mind,
nothing to suggest that he is any more likely to than any of the other neighbours. Why then should his potential involvement be looked into further? You could fabricate connections with any of the other neighbours but this would not make them worthy of investigation.
QuoteLet's make a white example here (since that's not likely to offend anybody). A member of the KKK lives in the neighborhood and racial slurs are spray-painted on a [non-white] person's house and the cops are called to find out who did it. Now, by your (and other's) "logic", because that KKK member has never been convicted of a crime (and might appear to be an upstanding member of the community aside from his connection to the culture of hate that is the KKK) the cops should ignore the fact that he is a member of the KKK and not investigate his possible involvement in the case? They shouldn't suspect him solely on his connection to the KKK?
No offence Darth, but are you deliberately misunderstanding the point here? You specify the guy in your example as "a member of the KKK" and therefore that is what he is (in your example). How can you specify the neighbour in the situation at hand as a "cat eater"? Being a member of the KKK plainly pins a person's colours to the mast in terms of race, in a way that coming from a country in which
some people eat cats does not do in terms of feline cuisine!
If this guy was definitely a "cat eater", legal convictions or no, then your point would, of course, hold water. As there is no meaningful suggestion that he does, other than the vaguest speculation, it does not work.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 15/02/2011 13:57:46
I never accused this neighbor (or claimed he should be accused). I contend (and stand-by) that there is enough evidence to warrant looking into his potential involvement further. A suspicion of guilt is not an accusation. I didn't say he did it (again, again, and again I've said I doubt he did). But you don't overlook any connection in a matter (a disappearance) like this. No matter how circumstantial.
I went back and looked over Rick's post again, and I don't see that there's
any evidence to warrant looking into this neighbor specifically. There's a confusing story that maybe he was keeping rabbits as livestock? (It's unclear to me whether this is definitely referring to the same person, and whether that was definitely what was going on.) And that he comes from a country where eating cats is "very prevalent" (according to Wikipedia, no such country exists; cats are eaten in Korea, for medicinal purposes, not as a regular food item, in China, but only regularly in Guangdong province, and according to some sources in Vietnam, but that is disputed). Oh, and cats have gone missing from the area before. (Cats go missing from all areas; without more information it's impossible to tell whether there is really a cluster of cat-disappearances close to this guy's house.)
QuoteLet's make a white example here (since that's not likely to offend anybody). A member of the KKK lives in the neighborhood and racial slurs are spray-painted on a [non-white] person's house and the cops are called to find out who did it. Now, by your (and other's) "logic", because that KKK member has never been convicted of a crime (and might appear to be an upstanding member of the community aside from his connection to the culture of hate that is the KKK) the cops should ignore the fact that he is a member of the KKK and not investigate his possible involvement in the case? They shouldn't suspect him solely on his connection to the KKK?
I don't see how you can fail to spot the mistake in that analogy. It's more like if the neighbor came from the deep South, so based on (fact-based, historically speaking) stereotypes of southerners,
and no actual evidence, he
might be a KKK member, and so he should be singled out for investigation.
QuoteThat makes no sense. I honestly don't know how to reply to that. So we should pass a new law/policy to all police, detectives, investigators and people in general that if you feel a crime has been committed you should ignore ALL possible connections and only investigate people of the same race/culture as you? Let a criminal get away with something just to avoid offending cultural sensitivities?
"Well the neighbor is a suspect but we don't have any [insert culture] people on the force so we can't look into him!"
What the hell, Darth? It's not that belonging to some group means they can't be investigated. It's that they shouldn't be investigated
just for belonging to that group, especially when there's nothing firm indicating the group is more prone to the particular crime in question. It's pretty simple, just do the thought experiment: if the person under the same circumstances, facing the same evidence, was, say, white, would there be grounds for investigation? (Not that you have to be blind to potential cultural factors in providing motive, of course. Let's say that remains of a cat were found that had been cooked and eaten.
Then coming from a culture where cats are consumed would be a reason to focus suspicion.)
Surely, Fox News style, the title of this thread should be changed to "Did my neighbor eat my cat?"
Quote
Here are the possibilities I am fairly confident that can be eliminated:
=================================================
1. He was not hit by a car. Check nearby streets and animal control about DOAs.
2. Has not killed by a dog. There was no sign of blood, fur, or other indications of such a struggle.
3. He was not frightened away and too scared to come home.
4. He did not wander off and forget how to get back home.
WTF? Absence of evidence allows you to eliminate these possibilities, despite their being (in my opinion) much more likely than "this guy looks like the guy that used to live in this house that ate rabbits, so he must steal and eat cats." In the case of 3 and 4, there's not even any rational explanation for your dismissal.
I think the most likely explanation is this:
Quote
I took our other cat outside on a leash
I hope your kitty comes home safely, but lay off the xenophobia. This is an international forum!
(I considered not posting this, but I wanted to voice my distaste for the thought process. )
Quote from: Kweepa on Tue 15/02/2011 15:27:49
(I considered not posting this, but I wanted to voice my distaste for the thought process. )
Same here. I don't think the statet possibilities can be eliminated, instead they're rather likely. "Investigating further" on that guy because of the country where he's coming from
is disgusting xenophobia and nothing more. Nothing. And I hope Darth got the point by now and understands that his analogies were not only weak, but totally out of place.
There's a reason why Rick didn't say China, Korea or wherever the guy is coming from, but "a country where cat eating is very prominent", because, naturally, AGS members from that country would be offended as they were suspected of being "cat eaters", which, of course, is utter bullshit. And, as Snarky already pointed out, there are no "cat eating countries".
Would someone suspect me for stealing a grilled sausage in some country because I come from Germany where grilled sausages are a rather popular fastfood? I hope not ;)
Aside from that, I hope your cat is well and will eventually return to you.
Its always the Germans that steal the sausages... everyone knows that.
Darth said he doesn't want to take part in the thread any more, but I think that apart from differing on the reasonableness of the theory Rick posted, the rest of the disagreement with him was mainly a matter of miscommunication.
Quote from: Matti on Tue 15/02/2011 16:26:25
Would someone suspect me for stealing a grilled sausage in some country because I come from Germany where grilled sausages are a rather popular fastfood? I hope not ;)
Well, in the sausage case it is very unlikely that it ran away or got run down by a car.
Other than that, I hope the cat will return safely!
I stole the german sausages.
I CONFESS!
P.S.- I'd reply to what Darth said but there's not much point when someone is so dead set on their own opinion they state their unwillingness to consider conflicting points and then abruptly depart the conversation.
Oh well, I still love him :(.
On a different note: I'd be much less appalled if my cat went missing and I discovered it was eaten by someone whose culture just tells them that a cat is "only" an animal, therefore it's simply "food" (no harm meant, neither to you nor to the cat) than if discovered they killed it with stones to torture it, or stole it just to see my emotional response.
In one case it's "just" practicallity (even though I can understand you get upset, I'd be too if it were MY cat). In the other cases it would be much more: it would be sadism.
If the guy is "just" eating cats, then he surely did it quick and painless, like a peasant who kills rabbits every day. Your cat probably didn't suffer.
I know it's not much of a cheer up, but, eh. Don't be too sad.
Gentlemen's disagreement taken to PM. :)
Apologies to Rick for the thread hijacking!
I'm very sorry about your cat.....
I really like your cat's name, though. Will it be totally inapropriate if I called a cat in my game Tuqu? I mean, in a way, he would become immortalised in a medium that is close to your heart... ( although I strongly believe cats have nine lives and Tuqu is alright, and even if he got... eaten... he has probably just began a new life somewhere, maybe not far from you). I have a whole cool plotline set around this really clever cat, originally called Midnight, but a while ago I discovered that this was the name of a cat in The Catwoman film- so I can't use it.
Sorry for not being very helpful... but please let me know what you think about the idea. I'd call it a tribute to your little missing friend.
Being Asian with parents immigrated from a country where people eat animals that are not considered food in the US, I find the accusations of the neighbor eating a cat without any solid evidence other than his ethnic group a tad racist and offensive. Despite my parents come from a country that eats dogs and cats, they are disgusted by it. We even have two dogs.
I hope the cat returns safely, but accusing your neighbor of eating your cat can be dangerous especially if you spread that information to your offline friends and family. Just that it is borderland paranoia. We all get paranoid. However, if you let your paranoia get to you, it will destroy relationships with your friends and family. I lost a friend for being paranoid in thinking that she is ignoring me. What I am saying is that don't think your neighbor ate your cat since you have no proof of that. If you have evidence, then by all means.
Most likely, I think your cat just ran away and could be lost, taken away by a friendly stranger, or taken to the local pound. I have seen lost pets all the time where they follow strangers home. I don't know your cat too well to know if he is the type to get lost easily, but if he is, he might have latched onto a stranger who decided to take care of him. If you haven't done so already, you can post up flyers around your neighborhood in case someone is taking care of him.
Quote from: doomsaber on Tue 22/02/2011 08:07:50
Being Asian with parents immigrated from a country where people eat animals that are not considered food in the US, I find the accusations of the neighbor eating a cat without any solid evidence other than his ethnic group a tad racist and offensive.
and you joined the forum to say that for your first post?!?!? I agree with what you're saying, but it gave me quite an impression... go through the questions and all that... brrrr... ;)
Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 22/02/2011 09:12:49
Quote from: doomsaber on Tue 22/02/2011 08:07:50
Being Asian with parents immigrated from a country where people eat animals that are not considered food in the US, I find the accusations of the neighbor eating a cat without any solid evidence other than his ethnic group a tad racist and offensive.
and you joined the forum to say that for your first post?!?!? I agree with what you're saying, but it gave me quite an impression... go through the questions and all that... brrrr... ;)
LOL yeah. I am a longtime lurker here. Was trying to find the TTG announcment of their new KQ game, but ended up here. I think I have joined the forums years ago. If I did, I don't remember my login name. The questions before joining did seem familar so I guess I did.