"If I Were The Devil" -Paul Harvey

[JimmyShelter]

For me, morality means playing with adorable puppies instead of eating them.

Hmmm, puppies.

[ManicMatt]

Yes... why were all of Rharpe's questions about sex? Is that all he ever thinks about? 

[iamus]

I think it's a kind of "don't think about polar bears" scenario.

[MrColossal]

...the world probably has about 150 moral people in it, and they're all under the age of 1.

If you are a parent to any of them, I'd bring down that number. By that statement are you admitting to being immoral?

By your standards I highly doubt there is even 1 moral person in this world. I'm sure you'll say your family is totally 100% moral and right though.

Now, I have one for you, just one really...

1.) Do you think it's wrong to steal?

Yes. Taking something, that is not yours, from another is wrong.

Ok then hypothetical:

You live by the ocean and a hurricane floods your city, freak of nature or act of god, whichever you want to think. You are trudging through waist high filthy water and sewage with one of your children on your back. She hasn't eaten for 5 days. In front of you is a supermarket full of food. Some of it is destroyed, some spoiled but there are tons of canned foods on higher shelves. The moral thing to do in this situation is let your child go hungry and die?

This is a moral choice to me, not taking a picture of my nipples and giving them to my girlfriend. And this is where black and white does not work.

Also, thanks for, as has been noted, taking all of my answers and boiling them down to yes or no. I didn't know you thought in binary, it would have saved me the trouble of even writing them out like.

[Squinky]

My God! Do these people really excist? Is there alot of these people in america?

Yes. But there are also a lot of people who have a lot of sex, so I guess it balances out.

You don't have to beat around the bush, go ahead and just put my name in next time, it's cool.

[Ginny]

I do find it rather odd how, when christian morals are brought into the discussion, the ones mentioned more than anything are the morals about sex. What about murder and stealing and other such things?
And what about war? War=killing people, after all, kinda goes against "Thou shall not murder". And yet people go to war because of religion all the time. In the bible, wars were often if not always about defending your god, and the pride of your god. Wait, pride? Is that all it's really about? Isn't god supposed to be for modesty and against pride? Does he have a big ego that needs defending through war?* Doesn't sound too moral to me.

I asked my ex bible teacher yesterday, out of curiosity, if the Old Testament, our bible, mentions anywhere that homosexuality is wrong. I wasn't sure if it was from the new testament. Turns out, it is in our bible, and what I found interesting is the verse: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:13). So, lesbians are allowed? I'm aware that the bible never really showed the woman as capable of independant decisions, women are always presented as belonging to man and hardly ever on their own. Still, though, you can't deny that this verse only speaks of male homosexuals. I am mildly amused by this .

My teacher also confirmed that to her knowledge, there isn't a bible figure who hasn't sinned, in the Old Testament.

* Don't mean to offend anyone, just making a point.

[Squinky]

Because the bible was written by men, and most guys are cool with lesbians....because, their hot.

[iamus]

I do find it rather odd how, when christian morals are brought into the discussion, the ones mentioned more than anything are the morals about sex.

Well it's almost always extreme sexual repression that creates fanatacism in the first place.

[SSH]

My teacher also confirmed that to her knowledge, there isn't a bible figure who hasn't sinned, in the Old Testament.

This is why Jesus was the Paschal lamb: everybody has done something at some point that hurt someone else. Christianity is supposed to be the "good news" that we're forgiven, not that we are perfect. But then loonies get carried away about what it is exactly that we're supposed to be forgiven for:

"I need to be forgiven for my homosexuality"
"no, I'm gay and I find it offensive that you think that that is a sin"

but you're forgiven for it, anyway.... so why do you need to ennumerate exactly every little thing that you screwed up on? This is why I'm not a catholic, 'cause it just doesn't make sense...

[rharpe]

Those were some questions to start off with... I notice everything I do is just not enough. This is ok though, Eric answered all the questions to my satisfaction. I just translated them for those of you who did not want to read his whole explanation.

I take it none of you are happy by this either?

[Becky]

Why is consensual, safe sex between two non-married adults wrong?

[Tuomas]

YEAH!

[MrColossal]

Those were some questions to start off with... I notice everything I do is just not enough. This is ok though, Eric answered all the questions to my satisfaction. I just translated them for those of you who did not want to read his whole explanation.

I take it none of you are happy by this either?

I just want an answer to my new question. I want to know if that is a yes or no situation that fits into your moral code.

[voh]

1.) Do you think pornography is wrong?
No. Pornography is awesome.

2.) Do you think fornication is wrong?
No. Fornication is also awesome.

3.) Do you think cheating is wrong?
Yes. Cheating is kind of lame.

4.) Do you think adultery is wrong?
Isn't adultery cheating? If it is, then by god, it's lame.

5.) Do you think immodesty is wrong?
Immodesty is equally awesome.

6.) Do you think erotism is wrong?
I think your spelling is wrong. It's eroticism. And again, it's fucking awesome!

7.) Do you think polygamy is wrong?
I personally think it's not a very good thing. True love is between two people. It makes fornication just that bit better!

8.) Do you think sodomy is wrong?
Personally, I think it's disgusting. Other people can decide what they think.

9.) Do you think hedonism is wrong?
It's a great song. I'm still sad that Skunk Anansie broke up

10.) Do you think incest is wrong?
Of course I do. Only retards think incest is a-okay.

Your questions are based on your own views. Because you think pornography is wrong, people who think otherwise aren't moral compared to your moral views. I can understand that, but it's also kind of childish to go around saying "Because you disagree with me, you're not moral.

I'd just like to add that pornography is awesome. Did I mention this before? Fornication rocks too. Both do, really. I like sheep, anyone with me?!

[big brother]

I've always thought Christian morality existed more like the scientific "laws" of the universe. When something strays from the "law", a consequence (predictable pattern) is suffered, similar to karma. (Insert verses about ill-gained riches, and money that sprouts wings and flies away, etc.)

Christianity shouldn't be a rulebook that's impossible to live by (the best you can do is get close). There are a lot of Christians that censure those who dance or bowl. Those familiar with the Old Testament realize that God gave the Jews many holdiays (some lasting for weeks, filled with drinking and dancing). I don't think there's anything wrong with celebrating humanity, or expressing your joy to be alive with others. I think that can be done without losing sight of our Creator. (Calvinism directly opposed this, and played upon people's self-righteous indignity, leading to narrow-minded fundamentalism)

It's not so much that every action can either be "moral" or "immoral", but that it can fall within a range of God's will. I say range, because God's will isn't a binary state. It's like a target where there's a bullseye, the ideal mark. But, like a target, it's not either bullseye or out-of-bounds. There are several areas that get closer or farther away. This would be God's grace.

I think as soon as we start saying "such and such" is WRONG, we end up fighting a battle of definitions, something that leads to the religious legalsim exhibited by the Pharisees. They were proud of the fact they had embellished upon the 613 laws of the Torah, specifying exactly what could be done on the Sabbat before it was considered "work" (even as far as restricting how much you could walk on this holy day).

Jesus had a more holistic apporach. He didn't reject anyone because of who they were or what they did. He emphasized the intention (or spirit) of the law, rather than its exact interpretation. His goal was not to prevent us from having fun. but to prevent us from destroying ourselves in the process.

So would God want us to use that vein for heroine? Although the Bible doesn't specifically say anything about smack, I would say probably not. Giving yourself an opportunity for addiction would interfere with other priorities. However, I can't say that heroine use in itself is morally WRONG. God looks at your motives.

[rharpe]

big brother: That was an interesting bit you wrote. I don't totally agree with every point, but some make a little sense. Thanks!

Also, I use these questions to see where Eric stood on the issue, and if others would like to reply to these questions, by all means... let's see where you stand.

It gives us all a chance to see what we all agree and disagree on.

[Becky]

Would you like to answer my question, rharpe?

[MrColossal]

Or mine, cheesy pleasey?

I answered 10 of yours

[Ginny]

big brother:
I think I've heard of those 613 laws of the Torah. They're called "Tarya"g Mitzvot" which means 613 commandments (nothing to do with the 10 commandments). As a side note, it's said that every Pommegranate (which is traditional to eat at the start of the Jewish year) has exactly 613 seeds. But I digress.

Anyway, if we're talking about morals, why not ask a few more questions (these are for anyone who wants to answer, and I'm interested in what any of you think on the subject):

1) Do you think abortion is wrong?
[I recall a certain thread where someone said a child growing up without a father or in another "abnormal" family would be doomed. This person was a christian. As far as I know, abortion is considered wrong by orthodox or fundamental (sorry if the wording is inaccurate) christians. But then, what is right, to let a child be born into a situation in which they'd be "doomed"?]
2) Do you think swearing is wrong?
3) Do you think physical violence is wrong?
4) Do you think jealousy (coveting what another person has or does) is wrong, and should someone be punished for it if it's impossible to control? Do you think it can be controlled?
5) Do you think lying for your personal gain is wrong? What about lying to help someone else? What if the lie will prevent the person you are lying to from being hurt, physically?
6) Do you believe people should be allowed to express their beliefs and thoughts freely (free speech) ?

I can't think of more at the moment, maybe later.
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P.S. I just found a quote somewhere that says it's forbidden (That's right, forbidden), in some holy text, i don't think it's the bible, but some other holy text, to teach a goy (non jew) the torah. So, unlike in chritstianity, it's wrong to pass on your beliefs to someone who is not already jewish, even if they want them. I don't think it's a very good rule, personally, but it also means you shouldn't force your beliefs on someone.

[esper]

My questions haven't been answered either. It seems I asked them the longest time ago.

Becky, I'll answer your question from a Christian perspetive. Well, from a Catholic perspective first: because if you do it, God hates you and you will burn in Hell, because the Bible says not to.

From a Christian perspective: God set things in motion not because he is a giant asshole who takes advantage of his position as God, but because he set all the laws of nature in motion as well and therefore understands what may or may not be good for us. Consensual sex between two unmarried adults could very well lead to illness. It could lead to heartbreak, if you give yourself to that person and think you will be with them forever, but they leave you. If you remember who the Bible was originally received by, you can aso understand there were more problems then just that for them. Marriage and sex to the OT Jews was specifically for continuing family lines, which means if you just had sex with whomever you wanted, your family line would be tainted, and your entire family would probably insert fiery torches into your buttocks.

And here's ANOTHER question I know I've asked before: If you were in Nazi-occupied Poland and were hiding Jews in your home, when the Nazis came to your dor looking, would you lie to them and save the Jews, but damn your soul (and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone) or tel the truth, saving yourself but damning the Jews? There are, as was discussed last time, more than one way around this, but as rharpe showed us with Eric's questions, everything can boil down to one of two courses of action...

All marriage is is a tradition. The real way God had in mind in the Bible is that when you had sex with someone, you stayed with them. The wedding ceremony wasn't actually the same as it is today... it was more of a giving of the girl to a man by the family so that man would be assured he could continue his family line. The only reason marriage exists the way it does today is because, although the Catholic church possesses most of the world's money, they don't want you to possess any. That's (one reason) why people of all religions and non-religions have to have a clergy member perform their ceremony.