"If I Were The Devil" -Paul Harvey

[vict0r]

think they're a great way to keep down the population and prevent accidental kids

As for gay people!

[ManicMatt]

Three cheers for condoms and gay people!

[Nikolas]

Three cheers for condoms and gay people!

And we have to thank rharpe for this post, as his is the first post in this thread!

[Akumayo]

Hip-Hip-HOORAY
Hip-Hip-HOORAY
Hip-Hip-HOORAY

[Squinky]

I would also get rid of all Rob Schneider movies.

Good. Goooood. While you're at it, get rid of all Adam Sandler movies as well, except for maybe the Wedding Singer and Anger Management.

!!!
If you did this, you would truely be the devil....Then I would have to off myself. And not go to heaven....

But, even as a christian type person that I am, I am not that interested in heaven. It sounds so darned boring....My heaven wouldn' t have all those streets of gold and perfect life.....my heaven would be:

1. Filled with Giant Big-ass spiders that give 35xp. And shotguns to battel them with, maybe even a Baldwin brother to help out...
2. I would have titanium bones and be able to eat shitloads of hamburgers.
3. Everybody would yell "Rockout" way too much.

---Edited out a stray number....

[Ginny]

I've been reading this thread for some time, feeling a bit too flooded with opinions and so it was difficult for me to form a proper post. It still is, as my mind is swarming with thoughts, but here's my bit:

I'm a Jew, but not religious. I suppose you could call me "spiritual but not religious" as I believe in some paranormal phenomena and, in general, in ghosts or souls. I admit fully that my belief in life after death is based largely on the need to feel like there is something else. I am not currently in the point in life when I can accept that at some point it will stop entirely, I won't think, won't remember, won't feel. It's a scary thought, and a few years ago I was rather terrified by it. I find comfort in the thought that maybe there is something else out there, that it doesn't just end.
One reason I'm so scared of that thought is that I really love my life, I've noticed lately that I love every minute, good or bad, joyful or depressing.

Now, I consider myself a good person. I also know that most people think I'm a good person aswell. I believe in having morals, and in principles, and it's not always principles that follow the rules of the system I live in (school for example). I comply with the system, but feel a need to fight for my beliefs when it's really important. And, I'm not religious, and I don't believe in god. I've had points in life where I did believe, in my own way, and points where I didn't, but if true belief in god has to be unocditional and absolute, then obviously I don't truly believe.

That said, I'm begining to think that I believe in fate, not, perhaps, in the form of a plan, but in small things that were meant or not meant to happen. For example, today I was hoping to meet someone I havn't seen for half a year and it didn't work out, and although it seems coincidential I have this nagging feeling that that's how it was supposed to be today.

Anyway, a little about Jewish religion (I don't know every detail so I'll only write what I'm pretty sure about) - Jews, as far as I know, don't believe in Hell. There is also the notion that because we are "the chosen people", converting many people was never an issue, and it's actually quite difficult, or was in past times, to convert. It required studying the bible, and all of the jewish laws and accepting them. There is even a story about three people who wanted to convert, and each of them came to a person and asked to be converted for this-and-that reason. One I recall, only wanted to study the written "bible", and not the spoken one. All three were refused the conversion, at least at first.
As some of you know, bible studies are mandatory in israeli schools, and we even have final tests (for the high school diploma) on the subject. Mine is this year. It's nothing about forced religion, it's actually studying the bible as a historic text, and understanding the different tools used to help pass the messages. For example, often we learn about the bible writer (the one writing the part we are learning at that point obviously, as the bible was written by many people) having a certain belief that caused him to descibe the events the way he did. If he believed that the king of that time was sinning because of the way he sacrificed to god, the written chapter would show this through his description of the king and such. So, in schools at least, we don't take the bible as god'd word, we accept that it was written, after all, by man, and man cannot be completely objective, and isn't garaunteed to be right.
Another thing I've noticed is that sin is never associated to anyone but man. No mention of the devil making people do bad things, it's always the same pattern (god gives man a chance, man sins, god is angry, god punishes man, time passes, and the cycle restarts). Man is given free will and is expected to use it to do good. By the way, there hasn't been one king or religious figure in the bible who hadn't sinned. King David, who is considered the best king the jews ever had, never sinned against god, but he coveted another man's wife, and more than that, he sent that man to battle in the front to ensure his death in battle, which worked, and he took his wife. King Solomon, who was considered very wise, had a thousand wives, many of them not jewish, and at some point was affected by their beliefs and worshipped other gods.

I choose to live my life according to morals I consider right. I don't hate anyone, and don't wish ill upon anyone. More importantly, I don't judge people because of what they believe or who they are. I don't need religion, and I don't even need the law, to tell me what is right and what is wrong.
Of course, one might argue that the surrounding in which I grow up forms my beliefs about right and wrong, and my morals, meaning that because I live in israel the laws here are part of my concept of good and evil. But that's a whole other discussion I guess. Still, there are laws I agree with, and laws, however large or however small in scope, that I disagree with. Free thought and free will allow me to consider for myself which laws I find correct, and often the issue is raised in classes or lectures, wether we agree with a certain law or not. Today we had a lecture about drugs, and he asked us, with all seriousness, if we believe that drugs like marijuana should be legal in israel, and controlled by the government (there is a group in the government that one of the their suggestions for if they are elected is making drugs legal). I can see many bad sides to it, and I can see some good sides too.
Perhaps, if I was born in an african tribe with a completely different moral system, my beliefs on many matters would be different. But I would still have the ability to question those beliefs that surround me and decide, with myself, if I agree with them or not.

If anyone wants to discuss the old testament and talmud etc, feel free to PM. I'm starting to find that I remember a lot of the material from last year's talmud lessons, considering I tried my best not to be present at as many as possible, and not to listen in those I was present at. I'm enjoying this debate very much, it's a great read!

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Excellent insights, Ginny!

Questioning is good. If it doesn't make you change your beliefs into what makes more sense, it'll surely end up strengthening your existing beliefs. I find that those who have rarely or never questioned their beliefs tend to have weak arguments supporting them, causing me not to take them seriously. This applies to non-religious people as well as religious people, of course.

[Renal Shutdown]

Rock Out!

What's that Stephen? Oh, Jesus, shut up up..Ã,  You're barely qualify as a brother as it is..

EDIT:
I also like to say that most "Christians" believe God is everywhere, and is in everyone.Ã,  And I'll also like to mention the fact that we're all, suppoedly, part of God.Ã,  So, if we go to hell..

What happens?

Do we, and a part of God die completely?Ã,  Or does it mean that part of God goes to hell, and in part becomes not infalliable and entirely good.Ã,  According to most religions that believe in God and believe that God is everywhere, Hell is techinically part of God.Ã, 

Now, seriously, if God can be as mean as to have a part of him/her/itself being hell, does that really me he/she/it is so benevolent and kindly towards humanity?Ã,  Surely that means as more and more people die, God becomes more and more evil, or more and more dead.

If Hell is not part of God, then God is not everywhere.Ã,  Therefore God is not infalliable and omnipotent.Ã,  If those two basic beliefs are possibly discounted, then what others can be?Ã,  If it's down to part of God dying a little with every human, how many must die before before we considered God to not be infinite?

I understand that infinity means never ending, but taking one away means that it's inifinity-1.Ã,  Which is not infinity.Ã,  Not unless you're going to take a ridiculous leap of faith and negate every ounce of logic you have left.

[LGM]

God created Hell...

[Renal Shutdown]

..And since God created everything, and everything is part of God..
God is Hell.

EDIT:

Ergo, God created Satan, the ruler of hell.Ã,  Satan is evil.Ã,  Satan, as part of "everything", is evil.Ã,  As part of everything, Satan is part of God.Ã,  Henceforth, God is part evil.

If God isn't part evil, then something exists outside of God, therefore God isn't what everyone thinks "He" is.

EDIT:

Lilly's a hardcore Christian, and we've had discussions on religion before.  I respect his belief in those, but in no way would I agree with him and in no way would he agree with my views.  That said, he's statement only backs up my point.  God created Hell, therefore God created something that's viewed as "Evil".  Considering God is everything, God made a part of himself evil.  God is not ALL good.

[LGM]

Yes. But the real term of "evil" is  basically anything that goes against God. Satan came from God, yes. He was also an angel named Lucifer before he was banished to hell, his PRISON.

I'd suggest not trying to define God by man-made logic. God gave us everything he wanted to give us, not everything that he himself has. Christians who say we are "a part of God" don't know anything. Nobody knows anything. God created us in his image. That doesn't mean we are God or have to be anything like him.

I wouldn't call myself Hardcore. I don't burn books or lead lynch mobs... I dunno, I'm not up to fully explaining my beliefs because they'll just ultimatey be mocked. I'm Christian, but not in the manner most non-Christians assume. I have my own core belief system based off of the bible an what I've been taught and what I think myself.

If you want to know my opinion on things, I'd love to have a chat. I won't try to convert you or anything. You can only save the willing!

P.S. And yes, I was being sarcastic earlier. Most Atheists I know are quite nice, really. Not much different than myself, really... They just don't have a God to believe in. The ones I don't like are those that think they're "knowledge" is more infallible than anything on the planet. That really chops my chin.

[SSH]

..And since God created everything, and everything is part of God..
God is Hell.

EDIT:

Ergo, God created Satan, the ruler of hell.Ã,  Satan is evil.Ã,  Satan, as part of "everything", is evil.Ã,  As part of everything, Satan is part of God.Ã,  Henceforth, God is part evil.

If God isn't part evil, then something exists outside of God, therefore God isn't what everyone thinks "He" is.

EDIT:

Lilly's a hardcore Christian, and we've had discussions on religion before.Ã,  I respect his belief in those, but in no way would I agree with him and in no way would he agree with my views.Ã,  That said, he's statement only backs up my point.Ã,  God created Hell, therefore God created something that's viewed as "Evil".Ã,  Considering God is everything, God made a part of himself evil.Ã,  God is not ALL good.

Actually, some Christians suggest that hell is being seperated from God, and thus inferring utter oblivion, while heaven is "merely" being with God and being able to continue living. This gets around your issue with God creating hell.

As for God creating evil, well what God created was free will. If we did not have free will we would be robots and unable to have this discussion, really. If God has given us something like free will but without the option of doing something other than what he wanted, then we would not have free will at all. It's quite simple, yet many people have problems grasping this.

[DGMacphee]

And if God is so great, how come there's a shitload of stuff that should be done but isn't being done, as I demonstrated?

I think Stranger discussed and showed a good point of view on why this is done earlier in the thread.

Hey, that's great but you got the names all mixed-up. And yes, I read Stranger's post, but I think I've got a few better ideas as to what that lazy goofball God SHOULD be doing!

People quite like my "abolish Rob Schneider movies" idea. In fact, they likes it way more than my "abolish war" idea.

[iamus]

Ergo, God created Satan, the ruler of hell.Ã,  Satan is evil.Ã,  Satan, as part of "everything", is evil.Ã,  As part of everything, Satan is part of God.Ã,  Henceforth, God is part evil.

If God isn't part evil, then something exists outside of God, therefore God isn't what everyone thinks "He" is.

I think the way to look at this is that the Christian view of God and Satan is only one of many cultural lenses through which human beings view the world. The world is structured in such a way that anything you want to find, you can find provided you look at it the right way. That's the nature of it. It is everything.

A predominant way of looking at the world (including Christianity's) is to see it as how the two polar opposites of Good and Evil interact in the world around us, which is seen metaphorically as a battle for souls between God and the Devil. Satan can only exist in tandem with God. They both need each other or the structure falls apart. In a monotheistic religion like Christianity you have God, who stands for absolutely everything that's loving and moral. Satan is byproduct. Created through the need for somewhere to put all the dark things that are left over.

You can't have Good unless you have Evil, because neither concept can exist without the other. How do you define Peace, if you don't have War to contrast it against? You can't. Without war there is no such thing as peace, and vice versa. Without European there is no African, only Human.

But it's how we build up our concepts and beliefs and use them to interact with the world around us that's important. Across the world, there are an infinite number of Gods for infinite different purposes, some more specialised than others.

As I said above, the Christian God stands for everything loving and moral. Worship of the Christian God is to devote yourself to these things, to become a vessel for spreading those influences into the world around you. To make yourself as most like God as is possible in the physical world.

It works the same way for other, polytheistic Religions. But they don't have things seperated into two such distinct categories. They have Gods of Compassion, Gods of Mischief, Gods of War etc. etc.
Worship of these Gods is to invite their influence into your life, for you to be a conduit for their mysteries. Worship the Chinese Kuan Yin and you devote yourself to spreading Her influence, to bring compassion to all you see, even those who perhaps don't deserve it. But her remit doesn't cover everything we would label "good", she has many counterparts to cover those areas.


Really, the Gods that we worship are as much vessels as we are. Since this is the AGS forum, I'll use that as a metaphor. They are the front-end interface. They appear in forms we can understand and interact with, and through them we can influence and be influenced by all the code that churns away behind the scenes.

[rharpe]

(And while we're at it, I'd really like to know whether rharpe honestly thinks I hate morality...)

Not at all! I respect the posts you have made. They tend to be the most heart-felt. (Not saying that everyone elses are not....) I can't completely agree with everything you have said... but you are genuine in what you believe which is what I respect about you.

Stranger: I'm a classic type of guy. My morality is closer to the "Leave it to Beaver" ideal, (maybe even more strict.) I was taught with traditional values that are very rare in our world today. If you would like to PM me regarding my moral views, you may. (People here tend to jump all over me for my moral stature.)

[MrColossal]

Unlike the way you jump on other people...

But anyway, so why do I hate morality?

[iamus]

I for one would love to hear what you have to say here, Rharpe.

As long as you're showing a willingness to honestly listen to others and compare, contrast and integrate their worldviews with your own (like your last post makes it sound), then that's all that can be asked of anyone. I'll extend the same courtesy.

You're entitled to your say just as much as anyone else is entitled to theirs.

[rharpe]

Unlike the way you jump on other people...

I guess you're right. Sometimes defending my faith and beliefs means I need to rough'n some people up.

But anyway, so why do I hate morality?

Because you are immoral... and you like it that way. (That's my guess.) 

[MrColossal]

I don't believe in god therefore I have no morals therefore I am only out for myself and don't care about others. This is your claim right? Then explain to me how you know who I am and what I do in a day to warrant this belief that I am out for myself only.

Also, it's ok for you to attack people but people can't attack you?

Also, did you know no one went to the bathroom on leave it to beaver... I fear your household!

[Squinky]

Unlike the way you jump on other people...

I guess you're right. Sometimes defending my faith and beliefs means I need to rough'n some people up.

I remember when Jesus said that....Oh wait, He didn't. Because he wasn't crazy.

I was just starting to feel a bit bad for you, but then you type this crazy garbage. If your really concerned about people jumping all over you, try not to write such inflammatory things...

Edit---Eric, everyone knows the book of leviticus states in chapter nine that those who subject themselves to such amorality as bathroom breaks shall burn in hell with John Candy for all eternity.