"If I Were The Devil" -Paul Harvey

[rharpe]

Would you like to answer my question, rharpe?

Sorry Becky, what was your question?

1) Do you think abortion is wrong?
[I recall a certain thread where someone said a child growing up without a father or in another "abnormal" family would be doomed. This person was a christian. As far as I know, abortion is considered wrong by orthodox or fundamental (sorry if the wording is inaccurate) christians. But then, what is right, to let a child be born into a situation in which they'd be "doomed"?]
2) Do you think swearing is wrong?
3) Do you think physical violence is wrong?
4) Do you think jealousy (coveting what another person has or does) is wrong, and should someone be punished for it if it's impossible to control? Do you think it can be controlled?
5) Do you think lying for your personal gain is wrong? What about lying to help someone else? What if the lie will prevent the person you are lying to from being hurt, physically?
6) Do you believe people should be allowed to express their beliefs and thoughts freely (free speech) ?

(1.)yes (2.)yes (3.)yes (4.)yes, not sure. (5.)yes, yes, yes... lying white or not is wrong. (6.)yes, but by speech... not by action. (express is a very vague word.)

Eric, if I were to take the food to feed my child, I would pay for it somehow.

[Blackthorne]

I love you rharpe.  I will follow you blindly anywhere.


Bt

[Becky]

Rharpe, it was this:

Why is consensual, safe sex between two non-married adults wrong?

[MrColossal]

So you believe god would punish you for feeding your child?

If you say yes then I think that's all that needs to be said ever again until the end of time.

Esper's Nazi question is pretty interesting also. Would god punish you for saving the lives of people from an insane government? If I understand you correctly then no matter the situation you will be punished in some way for disobeying a religious law. So while you've just saved the lives of your child, your baby girl, or the lives of complete strangers who are only guilty of being alive [as per Esper's question] you will be punished.

So then what is the absolute right and absolute wrong in these situations. What is the correct way to act?

"Eric, if I were to take the food to feed my child, I would pay for it somehow."

But would you, would you steal to save the life of your dying child? And if you would... If you admit that you'd do that to save your child, are you a moral person because you have the potential to do bad?

[HillBilly]

I thought you could do pretty much whatever you like aslong as you ask for forgiveness later. You know, since we can't help to be sinners, no matter what.

But this is probably already covered somewhere in the thread.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Damn, this thread is growing faster than I can reply to it!

What is religion but the abuse of power?

It's easy to make this assertion, considering that all we see of religion today is the abuse of power. However, how many of us have seen Christianity in its heyday, during the time of the Roman empire? How many of us have seen Islam bringing knowledge and prosperity to the Persian empire? How many of us were there to see Judaism empower the Israelites to overcome slavery?

It wasn't always about power, at least I don't think it was. But I think we can all definitely agree that it shouldn't be about power.

And marriage has more to do with governmental laws than it does religion so I don't see how this applies to god.

To a religious person, marriage has a lot to do with religion and little or nothing to do with the government. To a non-religious person, marriage is pretty much meaningless.

I do find it rather odd how, when christian morals are brought into the discussion, the ones mentioned more than anything are the morals about sex.

Well it's almost always extreme sexual repression that creates fanatacism in the first place.

And might I add that contrary to popular belief, the sexual repression is not created by Christianity or any religion, but is a result of the ever-increasing obsession that Western society has had with sexuality since the industrial revolution.

Why is consensual, safe sex between two non-married adults wrong?

I typed up a long reply to this, but esper ended up beating me to many the points I tried to make. I'll leave what I had to say anyway.

First of all, consent isn't always as clear-cut as it may seem. A lot of times, someone will consent to sex in the heat of the moment, and come to regret it later. Other times, you may have someone who initially does not want to have sex, but after repeated coaxing from their partner, pressure from friends, and exposure to all the sexual imagery displayed in the media, they'll change their mind.

Second, safe sex doesn't exist. No method of birth control or STD protection is 100% effective. Duh.

However, safety is, comparatively, the least of my worries. The most underestimated consequence of having sex too early is the emotional scarring it gives you. Usually, when unmarried people have sex, chances are that they haven't gotten to know one another very well beforehand; spontenaiety is seen as romantic in our culture. As a result, there is more of a risk of breaking up. Sexual chemistry is not enough to sustain a relationship, after all. Neither is love. For a relationship to last, you need to be compatible with one another in a mental, emotional, and spiritual sense, and you also need to be committed to one another.

Some of you may ask "well, what about casual sex?" I have to admit that I wonder if casual sex even exists; more often than not, when I hear stories about it, one or more people get emotionally attached in the end. This leads me to believe that we are naturally inclined to love and care for those we are sexually intimate with. In the cases where casual sex works, I hypothesize that it is a result of a person's heart getting broken so many times that they just don't feel it anymore.

An alternate hypothesis is that casual sex is more beneficial to men than it is to women. This is supported by evolutionary theories as well as personal experience; it's usually the women who get emotionally attached. In this case, I would say that women who like casual sex are trying to be like men; in a patriarchal society such as ours, this is called "empowerment", and is seen as a good thing. Obviously, I have problems with this.

So, moving back to marriage. For religious people, marriage is a very serious thing to get into; you're stuck with the same person for the rest of your life, so to speak. As a result, it's imperative to really really get to know a person before you marry him or her. If you don't have sex during this time, then (given what I've said about being naturally inclined to love whoever you're having sex with) you'll presumably be able to examine the person's character without being clouded by desire. In my religion, we also have a law of parental consent to marriage. I find this useful (assuming that you have a good relationship with your parents and that they have your best interests at heart) because they provide additional objectivity as to whether your marriage would work.

If you can get married and stay married to the same person for life, then you'll undoubtedly be spared much of the emotional scarring that you'd get if you had sex with more than one person.

Going back to your question: does this mean that people who aren't married can't stay together for a long time and have fulfilling relationships? Not necessarily; Eric, you've been with Jess for what, five years? However, I'd say that forming good, non-heartbreaking relationships outside of marriage is mainly a game of chance; sometimes, you might get lucky and find someone who's perfect for you, but that's relatively rare. Marriage, at least, provides more protection, a way of "predicting the weather", so to speak.

[MrColossal]

Just wanted to quickly add before I have to really go back to work...

I like the idea that stealing is wrong morally being brought up on an Adventure Game forum when all you did in every adventure game is steal everything that isn't nailed down...

Quite funny in my opinion!

[esper]

Heheheheh...

Anyway...

I want to ask a new question, since it seems my other quesions are never going to get answered, as they are religiously incriminating...

Why is swearing wrong, and what Bible verse can you use to show me it is? Be warned before you answer... You don't really know why it's wrong. You only think you do...

[Becky]

A lot of times, someone will consent to sex in the heat of the moment, and come to regret it later. Other times, you may have someone who initially does not want to have sex, but after repeated coaxing from their partner, pressure from friends, and exposure to all the sexual imagery displayed in the media, they'll change their mind.

Well, that can happen within marriage too.  I was just trying to put across the idea that it wasn't rape

Second, safe sex doesn't exist. No method of birth control or STD protection is 100% effective. Duh.

What about sterilisation?  And if both partners have been tested for STDs and have clean results and are faithful to each other, the chances of contracting an STD are so small it is negligable.

For a relationship to last, you need to be compatible with one another in a mental, emotional, and spiritual sense, and you also need to be committed to one another.

Why isn't that possible without marriage?

Going back to your question: does this mean that people who aren't married can't stay together for a long time and have fulfilling relationships? Not necessarily; Eric, you've been with Jess for what, five years? However, I'd say that forming good, non-heartbreaking relationships outside of marriage is mainly a game of chance; sometimes, you might get lucky and find someone who's perfect for you, but that's relatively rare. Marriage, at least, provides more protection, a way of "predicting the weather", so to speak.

Surely you can get just as heartbroken in a marriage where the partners who thought they were compatible turn out to not be?  In fact, wouldn't that be worse?  How does marriage ensure that you find the perfect person for you in the first place?

A lot of the arguments against sex out of marriage I see could just as easily take place inside the confines of a marriage situation.  If a couple are devoted to each other and compatible in every way, why is it still immoral for them to have sex even though they do not have the legal status of marriage?

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Now, it's question-answering time!

1) Do you think abortion is wrong?
2) Do you think swearing is wrong?
3) Do you think physical violence is wrong?
4) Do you think jealousy (coveting what another person has or does) is wrong, and should someone be punished for it if it's impossible to control? Do you think it can be controlled?
5) Do you think lying for your personal gain is wrong? What about lying to help someone else? What if the lie will prevent the person you are lying to from being hurt, physically?
6) Do you believe people should be allowed to express their beliefs and thoughts freely (free speech) ?

1) Not necessarily in circumstances involving life or death. However, the vast majority of abortions are a result of people having sex before they're ready to deal with its consequences; like I said in response to Paul Harvey, it's not a matter of stopping abortions, but a matter of stopping careless sex.
2) I think swearing is uncreative. Punctuation marks and censor bleeps are way funnier.
3) I think all kinds of violence are wrong. Sticks and stones only break bones; words have the power to shatter the soul.
4) Eh, just try to make the best of what you have.
5) I guess it depends on the situation, as well as the person. Some people will rather hear a lie that brings a smile than the truth that hurts. I'd rather have the truth that hurts, in all circumstances. However, there are many different ways you can tell the truth, and some are easier to take than others.
6) Only to the extent that you aren't deliberately trying to hurt, insult, or slander anyone.

While I'm at it, I think I should share my views on pornography as well. I, personally, think it's wrong because it degrades and objectifies women. "But what about pr0n made for women?" you ask. Well, that bothers me too because no matter what, the woman is almost always the object, the beautiful, vulnerable one trying to pleasure her big, powerful man. Even in regular old magazines you see this happening; both the women's magazines and the men's magazines have a scantily-clad woman on the cover; the women's magazines have tips on how to please your guy, and the men's magazines have tips on how to get what you want. Grr.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

A lot of the arguments against sex out of marriage I see could just as easily take place inside the confines of a marriage situation.Ã,  If a couple are devoted to each other and compatible in every way, why is it still immoral for them to have sex even though they do not have the legal status of marriage?

Remember: I'm talking about marriage in the religious sense, not in the legal sense. Legal marriage doesn't really mean much, as Britney Spears would attest. As for your questions, I've already addressed them in my post. Read it over again if you want answers. I hate repeating myself.

If you're not religious, I should probably mention that none of what I say on marriage applies; there's no significant reason to get married if you're not religious and don't hold the same system of beliefs that most religious people do. In this case, I'd still advise trying to get to know your significant other as well as possible before sex0ring them.

[MrColossal]

There are very few women in gay porno, Stranger... Explain!

also, there are TONS of reasons to get married legally!

Power of attorney being one huge one, anyone remember the whole food tube removal fiasco?

http://scribbling.net/1049-federal-rights-depend-on-marital-status

1,049 reasons to get legally married...

[Adamski]

However, safety is, comparatively, the least of my worries. The most underestimated consequence of having sex too early is the emotional scarring it gives you. Usually, when unmarried people have sex, chances are that they haven't gotten to know one another very well beforehand

Sweeping generlisation, poppycock of the highest degree.

As a result, it's imperative to really really get to know a person before you marry him or her. If you don't have sex during this time, then (given what I've said about being naturally inclined to love whoever you're having sex with) you'll presumably be able to examine the person's character without being clouded by desire.

Speaking from experience, this is utter nonsense.

If you can get married and stay married to the same person for life, then you'll undoubtedly be spared much of the emotional scarring that you'd get if you had sex with more than one person.

Pish.

However, I'd say that forming good, non-heartbreaking relationships outside of marriage is mainly a game of chance; sometimes, you might get lucky and find someone who's perfect for you, but that's relatively rare. Marriage, at least, provides more protection, a way of "predicting the weather", so to speak.

Utter hogwash.

If you're basing these opinions off of personal experience, you have had an unfortunatly skewed introduction love, sex and relationships, and it doesn't really reflect the experiences everyone else in the world is having. If you're basing these opinions off of anything else, I'd suggest looking at a wider range of data or test results or whatever.

As someone who is in a mature, consentual and responsible relationship and not yet married I can safely assure you that most of what you have stated in the post you made is nonsense. 

[EldKatt]

I shall now generously offer you my answers to Ginny's questions, despite how I don't really care for this thread to any extent. I will not pay any attention to rharpe's questions, because I think they're mostly irrelevant and/or ill-defined.

1) Do you think abortion is wrong?

I haven't given this issue as much thought as perhaps I ought to, but I think I'll say definitely not. The argumentation against it, that I've heard, hasn't really convinced me. (In fact, I cannot at the moment recall any arguments that are not based on other moral axioms that I do not consider doubtlessly true.)

2) Do you think swearing is wrong?

I assume we're discussing some sort of moral universals here, as opposed to culturally enforced rules of conduct? If so, no, not really.

3) Do you think physical violence is wrong?

Yes.

4) Do you think jealousy (coveting what another person has or does) is wrong, and should someone be punished for it if it's impossible to control? Do you think it can be controlled?

I firmly believe that, in general, nobody should be punished for anything. This is something of a cornerstone in the way I view life. That said, I do think that jealousy is genuinely not good, and should be avoided.

5) Do you think lying for your personal gain is wrong? What about lying to help someone else? What if the lie will prevent the person you are lying to from being hurt, physically?

This is a very difficult question, and I have to admit that I simply can't answer it very well here. Generally, though, I guess (yes, guess--I'm not really sure) I take something of a utilitarian approach here (you know, Bentham's "maximum happiness" thing). The easiest answer is, of course, that it depends on the circumstances. What I can assure you of is that I do not think that anyone is going to suffer God's punishment when or if the trumpet calls us before his throne on the day of wrath. This is the most important thing I have to say on this issue.

6) Do you believe people should be allowed to express their beliefs and thoughts freely (free speech) ?

The short answer is yes. The long answer is that it depends on what you mean by freely, but essentially also yes.



Also, I'd like to throw in a couple of words on the topic of pornography. Merriam-Webster Online (sorry, I don't have access to the OED right now) tells me that it means the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement. I see no reason why this in itself would be wrong. The argument that usually comes up, about it degrading women and so forth, is fallacious, as pornography in itself is a much broader concept, and not by definition degrading. This is a textbook example of an association fallacy.

[Adamski]

As for your questions, I've already addressed them in my post. Read it over again if you want answers. I hate repeating myself.

Using your original post as answers provides no concrete reasons for not having sex outside of marrige, just bias, hokey logic and infactual statements. You haven't really addressed the questions Becky has asked in a convincing or fulfilling way at all.

[esper]

How about this one... Sorry about the nastiness of what folows, but I believe it is necessary to get my point across.

I don't want to put my penis somewhere where another guy's has been, and where it has been randomly spewing smee about. I especially don't want to put my mouth there. If I were a girl, I wouldn't want to have some guy dipping his junk in me when it's been in a ton of other girls. I may speak solely for myself, but here's the dilly-o: When I get married, I don't want to think I was just one stop along a broad buffet line.

[Becky]

When I get married, I don't want to think I was just one stop along a broad buffet line.

Why does sex outside ofmarriage imply that you must be to some extent "promiscuous" and have had sex with more than one person?

[MrColossal]

And only when it comes to sex? What about if your wife to be made out with the entire football team? Doesn't matter? Or what about handjobs? Are those ok? Strip teases? Masterbating in front of guys?

But mostly the making out part... If you find your wife to be has gone out with 20 guys and kissed a majority of them from goodnight to make out, would you refuse to kiss them?

[EldKatt]

Or what about, heaven forbid, love, or some similar sort of emotional stuff? Why is it that these Christian moral rules of conduct tend to value sex as more relevant than anything else? I find it amusingly contradictory.

[veryweirdguy]

I'd just like to add that pornography is awesome. Did I mention this before? Fornication rocks too. Both do, really. I like sheep, anyone with me?!

No one semeed to pick up on the fact that Voh went from pornography to sheep in two sentences & one easily affordable monthly payment! Have you been looking through AGA's image collection again?

Anyway, carry on with your.....religion & such.